1850 : Alternative Divergence [AH][OOC][CLOSED]

[Oscalantine]

Anyhow... sleeping for now. I have been getting dark circles around my eyes and too much time studying that I don't have stamina for all-nighter in the NS ^^;;;

Relay your msg on OOC here or on TG, and I'll try to answer'em all in the morning/afternoon my time (JST, in case you were still wondering XDDD)

[Altito Asmoro]

Full Nation Name : The Kingdom of Iceland
Majority/Official Culture : Icelandic
Territorial Core : Iceland and part of Greenland
Territorial Claim : The entire Greenland.
Capital City : Islandic (Reykjavik)
Population : 243,670

Government Type : Constitutional Monarchy
Government Ideology/Policies : Monarchism, Isolationist.
Government Focus : To unite Greenland under one banner, to stabilizing the kingdom's economy.
Head of State : King Aaron III of the House of Auldur
Head of Government : Prime Minister Josef Svensson
Government Description :

Majority/State Religion :
Religious Description : [[OPTIONAL]]

Economic Ideologies : Free Market, Capitalism
Major Production :
Economic Description :

Army Strength :
Army Weakness :
Naval Strength :
Naval Weakness :
Further Military Description : [[OPTIONAL]]

National Goals :
National Issues : [[what needs to be fixed in order for your nation to achieve its true potential]]
National Figures of Interest : [[OPTIONAL]] [[Are there any Mother Teresas or Moses that we need to know about?]]
National Ambition/Aspirations : [[OPTIONAL]] [[Not really a set objective, but rather the big picture that your nation is drawing towards]]

History : [[Can be in paragraph or bulletpoint timeline.]]

Comparison Points – Political : 4
Comparison Points – Cultural/Religious : 2
Comparison Points – Economy : 3
Comparison Points – Military : 3
Total Comparison Points used (10 Points MAX) : /10

WIP

Sry but I just took over Iceland and am expanding in Greenland if you wanted north western Greenland I could let you do that

We need
A
Mongolia or China and a
Spain or Portugal

Wasn't Portugal fled to Brazil?

Maybe I'll be China.

[Gurland empire]

Sry but I just took over Iceland and am expanding in Greenland if you wanted north western Greenland I could let you do that

We need
A
Mongolia or China and a
Spain or Portugal

Wasn't Portugal fled to Brazil?

Maybe I'll be China.

Yes Be China

[Altito Asmoro]

Full Nation Name : Caliphate of Morocco
Majority/Official Culture : Moroccans
Territorial Core : Morocco and Andalusia, Barbados, Grenada, and Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
Territorial Claim : Iberian Peninsular
Capital City : Cassablanca
Population : 20, 242, 000

Government Type : Absolute Monarchy
Government Ideology/Policies : Militant, Islamist, Expansionist
Government Focus : [[Tell me a little bit about what is your government’s focus… be it military, economy, culture, legitimacy, etc.]]
Head of State : [[highest-ranking individual in the nation according to rule of law]]
Head of Government : Caliph Hassan I of Saadi Dynasty
Government Description : Caliph Hassan I of Saadi Dynasty

Majority/State Religion : Sunni Islam
Religious Description : [[OPTIONAL]]

Economic Ideologies : Mercantilism
Major Production : Agricultural products and fisheries, mostly.
Economic Description :

Army Strength : Moderately-trained 90,000 strong-army. Trained using their outdated firearms and used to battle at deserts geographical type.
Army Weakness : As mentioned before, poorly equipped with modern artillery and modern firearms.
Naval Strength : Numerical superiority. 20,000 sailors and naval personnel.
Naval Weakness : Outdated ships and poorly armed.
Further Military Description : [[OPTIONAL]]

National Goals : To maintain control over Andalusia and Morocco, and to modernize the caliphate.
National Issues : To suppress the traditionalists who are anti-modernization, to suppress Catholic rebels in Andalusia, and to open the nation to the world market.
National Figures of Interest : General Malik Al-Saleh (a Western-educated military general, strong supporter of Militarism policy) and Prince Hassan II of Saadi Dynasty.
National Ambition/Aspirations : Islamic Caliphate spanning from Iberian Peninsular to North Africa.

[b]History :

1214: Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa ended with the defeat of Christian coalition of the Iberian nations (Castille, Aragon, Portugal, and Navarre) and the subsequent minor attacks from them.
1290: Almohad Dynasty loss their control over their caliphate as the entire line of the dynasty lost their lives when they were assassinated by Salahuddin Marinid, the founder of Marinid Dynasty and the personal bodyguard of the Caliph himself, founding his own dynasty shortly after that.
1490: Marinid Dynasty was destroyed, and one of the members, Mohammed Saadi, founded the Saadi Dynasty, at the same time stabilizing control over Andalusia, and opening the caliphate to the education and technologies of the Renaissance period, marking the Golden Age of Caliphate in terms of sciences and technologies.
1770: Growing influence of the European powers weakening Morocco's influence in the process, as does their defeats over them because of inferior equipments and tactics, prompting the Saadi Dynasty to hastily try to modernize the nation to a failed extent since the traditionalists opposed of the modernization and insisting on crusading the European powers.
1850: Weakened yet modernizing slowly, Morocco starts their campaign to modernize the nation, and finally will be able to be strong again.

Comparison Points – Political : 3
Comparison Points – Cultural/Religious : 3
Comparison Points – Economy : 2
Comparison Points – Military : 2
Total Comparison Points used (10 Points MAX) : /10

[Cymrea]

The fact that the OP has set a specific tech cap, doesn't equate to their being no other caps. If so its certainly a very arbitrary and illogical cap to set. Technology is just one aspect of human development that is closely related to all others. Technological, philosophical, political and other advances always fuels each other. If we have a 20th century international system why not a 20th century economic system? If we have a 20th century economic system why not technology?

It may not equate to no other caps, or it might just be that there are no other caps. Choose to decide that's arbitrary or illogical if you will, but that doesn't make it so for everyone.

Please calm down and drop the strawmen.

Don't make presumptions and mistake my words of emphasis for a lack of calm.

There were no straw men there, but given how infatuated folks on this site seem to be with declaring that particular logical fallacy, I'm not surprised to find it here. Never once did I attack an argument you didn't make. You have and continue to "shit on the ideas and initiatives of others that contravene your own", and have and continue to "denigrate an apparent inability to argue against your already made up mind that won't be convinced of anything contrary".

First of all this isn't about what I will allow, I have no authority to allow or disallow anything but I reserve the right to call out what I perceive as anachronisms.

You call those things out by denigrating them, denouncing them as unrealistic and "stupid". This is not in any way persuasive and borders on a lack of civility.

Since you already agreed that debate is not a bad thing in your previous post why do you make it into a problem now? The OP decides what people are allowed to do, I merely comment.

I'm not making debate into a problem. I'm taking umbrage with your chosen method of attack. "Merely comment" is inaccurate and diminishes the aggressive nature of your arguments.

Secondly I am not arguing against ideas because they contravene my own, I am arguing against ideas because I generally don't believe in them...

I didn't say "because they contravene your own", I said "that contravene your own". Not the same thing at all, speaking of straw men.

...and I resent the implication that I have some sinister motivations behind my arguments.

Implications that weren't made, so no worries, eh?

Thirdly if you would actually bother to create an argument for the historic plausibility of the AEGIS in a 19th century setting instead of misrepresenting my views, and if the argument make sense I will of course consider it.

It seems you're not immune to misrepresentation yourself. I've made my arguments for its plausibility; you appear to have ignored them or dismissed them out of hand because they don't make sense to you. But anything you disagree with or falls outside your perception of plausibility will naturally not make sense to you. If it did, you'd agree with it. Given that, anything you don't already agree with won't make sense to you and you won't be convinced otherwise. So is there even a point to arguing at all?

That aside, to answer your question. I will "allow" anything that is conceivable within the context of our 19th century setting.

AEGIS is conceivable within a 19th Century context. It didn't happen in RL for RL reasons. That does not preclude it from happening in AH.

Any of the vast arrays of ideas and thoughts that people of this interesting age could have conceived of I am perfectly fine with. And if you can't RP within that immensely wide frame of the 19th century but have to include 20th and 21st century concepts then I have to turn your question around and ask what you are doing in a historic RP?

What am I doing in a historic RP if I can't RP within your self-described immensely wide frame of ideas and thoughts that you're perfectly okay with? That question certainly encapsulates your point of view....

I don't have to include RL 20th and 21st Century concepts into 19th Century AH - I choose to include them because I believe they are perfectly viable concepts for the time period. You disagree, and you express your disagreement in derisive terms.

Isn't the point of it all that we develop our nations from a basis of actual history?

We base our nations in RL history and then diverge from it in RP.

EDIT: I'm done with this argument. It's sucking all the fun out of the RP for me, and I'd prefer to enjoy my efforts here instead.

[Tracian Empire]

Hey, Cymrea, I think you sent me a proposal for building the Suez Canal, right?

[Eurasian Hegemony]

Well you could always enter into a trade agreement with me and I can act as your gate, or you could invade north africa through the pirate lands. I would actually support you in that, as long as sicily becomes mine which I am working on a post that will set up the scene for the Sicilian reconquest

Still, would you agree to something like that? The current is just too vulnerable.

http://imgur.com/G6A1sDQ

Also, we could cooperate in Northern Africa, as long as you won't intervene in the Eastern Mediterranean, more exactly my fights with the pirates there.

Yeah that works. And I won't interfere with you taking the pirate lands in the akkadian area as long as I can take some of the arabian pirate lands and sicily.

The only thing I would interfere with would be if you attacked Israel. I would support them against you but I'm fine with you expanding into syria.

[Cymrea]

Hey, Cymrea, I think you sent me a proposal for building the Suez Canal, right?

Informally, but yes. Once Os gets the map squared away, it will be apparent where, but I think we can start the project at Port Said/Fort Said.

[Tracian Empire]

Still, would you agree to something like that? The current is just too vulnerable.

http://imgur.com/G6A1sDQ

Also, we could cooperate in Northern Africa, as long as you won't intervene in the Eastern Mediterranean, more exactly my fights with the pirates there.

Yeah that works. And I won't interfere with you taking the pirate lands in the akkadian area as long as I can take some of the arabian pirate lands and sicily.

The only thing I would interfere with would be if you attacked Israel. I would support them against you but I'm fine with you expanding into syria.

Do you want us to have a treaty? The treaty will include:

-Setting the borders in Egypt
-A common expedition against the pirates in Northern Africa, with Christendom taking over Sicily, and Rome taking over that part of Northern Africa
-A trade agreement

[Eurasian Hegemony]

Yeah that works. And I won't interfere with you taking the pirate lands in the akkadian area as long as I can take some of the arabian pirate lands and sicily.

The only thing I would interfere with would be if you attacked Israel. I would support them against you but I'm fine with you expanding into syria.

Do you want us to have a treaty? The treaty will include:

-Setting the borders in Egypt
-A common expedition against the pirates in Northern Africa, with Christendom taking over Sicily, and Rome taking over that part of Northern Africa
-A trade agreement

Yeah we could call it the treaty of Luxor or Alexandria or Cairo or something

[Cymrea]

Do you want us to have a treaty? The treaty will include:

-Setting the borders in Egypt
-A common expedition against the pirates in Northern Africa, with Christendom taking over Sicily, and Rome taking over that part of Northern Africa
-A trade agreement

Yeah we could call it the treaty of Luxor or Alexandria or Cairo or something

Very cool. Also the diplomatic message I sent to the Papacy included an official acknowledgment of our borders as well.

[Eurasian Hegemony]

Yeah we could call it the treaty of Luxor or Alexandria or Cairo or something

Very cool. Also the diplomatic message I sent to the Papacy included an official acknowledgment of our borders as well.

Yeah i am responding to that as well as setting the stage for me and rome to sign the treaty in my next post.

Tracian where do you want to have the treaty negotiations.

[Tracian Empire]

Very cool. Also the diplomatic message I sent to the Papacy included an official acknowledgment of our borders as well.

Yeah i am responding to that as well as setting the stage for me and rome to sign the treaty in my next post.

Tracian where do you want to have the treaty negotiations.

Alexandria? It's kinda close to my borders.

[Tracian Empire]

I've decided to change the flag I am using, because Rome is not only a city, it's an ideal. The Eternal City.

All hail the Senate and People of Rome!

[Lenyo]

Congrats on securing Egypt. Do the three of you think you can clear the pirates out of Libya and Sicily? France would love that. Feel free to go all Mare Nostrum on the territory east of Tunisia. France doesn't care who's in charge, as long as they don't raid the Tunisian coast. France fucking hates that.

My dog just barked 'ferociously' at a passing airplane. He feels proud for warding off something ten thousand times bigger and a million times faster.

[Altito Asmoro]

It's fine if I make app for Morocco? I mean since now Iberian Peninsular is empty.

[Lenyo]

It's fine if I make app for Morocco? I mean since now Iberian Peninsular is empty.

Empty except for my two new provinces. The rest are yours.

Also, if you would claim the three islands south of Saint Lucia (Barbados, Grenada, and Saint Vincent and the Grenadines), that would be awesome. They were Andalusia's, and that would be three fewer pirate islands.

[Altito Asmoro]

It's fine if I make app for Morocco? I mean since now Iberian Peninsular is empty.

Empty except for my two new provinces. The rest are yours.

Great.

I rarely see an Issues Editor playing in P2TM, honestly. Not that it is a bad thing, I just rarely see one.

[Kosovo12345]

>be me
>lose wifi
>lose phone
>forget laptop pass
>3 rp have have now 15 combined page in ooc
>fml

Can someone catch me up

[Cymrea]

>be me
>lose wifi
>lose phone
>forget laptop pass
>3 rp have have now 15 combined page in ooc
>fml

Can someone catch me up

In the IC, not too much. I can tell you that Cambria has sent Russia a diplomatic message.

[Kosovo12345]

>be me
>lose wifi
>lose phone
>forget laptop pass
>3 rp have have now 15 combined page in ooc
>fml

Can someone catch me up

In the IC, not too much. I can tell you that Cambria has sent Russia a diplomatic message.

There was talk of a tetocnic knights near russia? How that go?

[Tracian Empire]

In the IC, not too much. I can tell you that Cambria has sent Russia a diplomatic message.

There was talk of a tetocnic knights near russia? How that go?

Someone asked if a Teutonic state would be accepted. The OP said that it will probably your decision, since you're Russia.

[Kosovo12345]

There was talk of a tetocnic knights near russia? How that go?

Someone asked if a Teutonic state would be accepted. The OP said that it will probably your decision, since you're Russia.

I would accept one in the baltic states that are a russian vassel ^^

[Lenyo]

This RP needs a China so badly.

[Suekiva]

I can't actually find anything about Kenny having the Baltic states as a vassal, can somebody link that for me?