Guns, Drums and Steel [OOC|Open]

[G-Tech Corporation]

Ah, hmm. So it was a full court war from the shores of the Caspian to the border of China, a two thousand mile border, against dozens of different ethnic groups? I mean, no offense, I'm sure Russia could potentially do such a thing, but on the other hand they had many armies come to grief fighting on only segments of that border. Fighting every kingdom and warlord in Central Asia simultaneously is biting off an awful large chunk to chew.

Russia's done crazier.

Speaking of which, the Central Asian armies aren't totally defeated, it's worth noting. The Russians just declared them to be.

Hmm, well if you're doing essentially what Russia did OTL did in the next ten years you've overrun the Khanates of Bukhara and Khiva in the west near the Caspian, located around Samarkand. Russia didn't conquer the Khanates of Kashgar and Kokand for another two decades after that, so I figure they would be more capable of resisting, and thus candidates for extending Mughal protection from nearby Afghanistan. Does that seem reasonable?

[Caltarania]

Russia's done crazier.

Speaking of which, the Central Asian armies aren't totally defeated, it's worth noting. The Russians just declared them to be.

Hmm, well if you're doing essentially what Russia did OTL did in the next ten years you've overrun the Khanates of Bukhara and Khiva in the west near the Caspian, located around Samarkand. Russia didn't conquer the Khanates of Kashgar and Kokand for another two decades after that, so I figure they would be more capable of resisting, and thus candidates for extending Mughal protection from nearby Afghanistan. Does that seem reasonable?

Any attempts to take Central Asia will be taken as an act of war, and for the love of god don't force a war. We'd have to fight in Afghanistan - the Graveyard of Empires - and I'm pretty sure it'd lead to the demise of both Russia and the Mughals.

[Liecthenbourg]

Hmm, well if you're doing essentially what Russia did OTL did in the next ten years you've overrun the Khanates of Bukhara and Khiva in the west near the Caspian, located around Samarkand. Russia didn't conquer the Khanates of Kashgar and Kokand for another two decades after that, so I figure they would be more capable of resisting, and thus candidates for extending Mughal protection from nearby Afghanistan. Does that seem reasonable?

Any attempts to take Central Asia will be taken as an act of war, and for the love of god don't force a war. We'd have to fight in Afghanistan - the Graveyard of Empires - and I'm pretty sure it'd lead to the demise of both Russia and the Mughals.

FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT.


I mean if Russia requires money for the war... Alaska and Hawaii

[G-Tech Corporation]

Hmm, well if you're doing essentially what Russia did OTL did in the next ten years you've overrun the Khanates of Bukhara and Khiva in the west near the Caspian, located around Samarkand. Russia didn't conquer the Khanates of Kashgar and Kokand for another two decades after that, so I figure they would be more capable of resisting, and thus candidates for extending Mughal protection from nearby Afghanistan. Does that seem reasonable?

Any attempts to take Central Asia will be taken as an act of war, and for the love of god don't force a war. We'd have to fight in Afghanistan - the Graveyard of Empires - and I'm pretty sure it'd lead to the demise of both Russia and the Mughals.

It isn't fighting- more allowing people who don't want to end up under the Russian boot to bear a yoke of gold instead of a yoke of iron.

Besides, it's not like I'll be declaring it formally I'm speaking strictly from an OOC perspective, as in what I think would be reasonable.

[Caltarania]

Any attempts to take Central Asia will be taken as an act of war, and for the love of god don't force a war. We'd have to fight in Afghanistan - the Graveyard of Empires - and I'm pretty sure it'd lead to the demise of both Russia and the Mughals.

It isn't fighting- more allowing people who don't want to end up under the Russian boot to bear a yoke of gold instead of a yoke of iron.

Besides, it's not like I'll be declaring it formally I'm speaking strictly from an OOC perspective, as in what I think would be reasonable.

I think it'd be something like this; taking the people, asking them to relocate to the Mughal borders, that's fine. Taking any land is bad.

Honestly, taking the people is a bonus for us, as we could send in good, loyal Russians to work the land.

[G-Tech Corporation]

It isn't fighting- more allowing people who don't want to end up under the Russian boot to bear a yoke of gold instead of a yoke of iron.

Besides, it's not like I'll be declaring it formally I'm speaking strictly from an OOC perspective, as in what I think would be reasonable.

I think it'd be something like this; taking the people, asking them to relocate to the Mughal borders, that's fine. Taking any land is bad.

Honestly, taking the people is a bonus for us, as we could send in good, loyal Russians to work the land.

Hmm, more along the lines of the land and the people. Obviously the Russian cartographers just haven't been informed about the full extent of Mughal possessions in the region, and accidentally wandered into the nearby region of greater Afghar in their attempt to occupy Kashgari lands. Yep, precisely what it will look like, glad I thought of it.

Besides, that cotton, me gusta.

[Caltarania]

I think it'd be something like this; taking the people, asking them to relocate to the Mughal borders, that's fine. Taking any land is bad.

Honestly, taking the people is a bonus for us, as we could send in good, loyal Russians to work the land.

Hmm, more along the lines of the land and the people. Obviously the Russian cartographers just haven't been informed about the full extent of Mughal possessions in the region, and accidentally wandered into the nearby region of greater Afghar in their attempt to occupy Kashgari lands. Yep, precisely what it will look like, glad I thought of it.

Besides, that cotton, me gusta.

>:u

We're Russian, not Indian, we know how to cartograph, jeesh.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Hmm, more along the lines of the land and the people. Obviously the Russian cartographers just haven't been informed about the full extent of Mughal possessions in the region, and accidentally wandered into the nearby region of greater Afghar in their attempt to occupy Kashgari lands. Yep, precisely what it will look like, glad I thought of it.

Besides, that cotton, me gusta.

>:u

We're Russian, not Indian, we know how to cartograph, jeesh.

Calt, could you add me to the accepted list in the OP? It might lead to some unfortunate misunderstandings if I stay as a reserved player, rather than an accepted one.

[Caltarania]

>:u

We're Russian, not Indian, we know how to cartograph, jeesh.

Calt, could you add me to the accepted list in the OP? It might lead to some unfortunate misunderstandings if I stay as a reserved player, rather than an accepted one.

Oh, sure, yeah, sorry about that.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Hmm, more along the lines of the land and the people. Obviously the Russian cartographers just haven't been informed about the full extent of Mughal possessions in the region, and accidentally wandered into the nearby region of greater Afghar in their attempt to occupy Kashgari lands. Yep, precisely what it will look like, glad I thought of it.

Besides, that cotton, me gusta.

>:u

We're Russian, not Indian, we know how to cartograph, jeesh.

I mean, we could also fight a desultory war out in the backend of nowhere over scraps of mountain and goats. Mughal Desertistan is, after all, best Desertistan. It would give me an opportunity to entertain my more restive commanders and keep the Mughal armies from going soft, as well as give them practice fighting against modestly European forces. And you can practice your mountain fighting for the intermittent guerrilla warfare that's going to plague the region for the next few decades.

I'm actually rather liking the idea. It'll be a nice proving ground for Mughal military innovation.

[Caltarania]

>:u

We're Russian, not Indian, we know how to cartograph, jeesh.

I mean, we could also fight a desultory war out in the backend of nowhere over scraps of mountain and goats. Mughal Desertistan is, after all, best Desertistan. It would give me an opportunity to entertain my more restive commanders and keep the Mughal armies from going soft, as well as give them practice fighting against modestly European forces. And you can practice your mountain fighting for the intermittent guerrilla warfare that's going to plague the region for the next few decades.

I'm actually rather liking the idea. It'll be a nice proving ground for Mughal military innovation.

There are more than mountains and goats in Central Asia though. As Halford Mackinder said; the power which controls Central Asia—richly endowed with natural resources—shall ultimately be the "empire of the world". That being said, I doubt the resources would be recoverable without European tools and knowledge, of which only one of us has/has the ability to get with ease. Now I'm gonna be honest, fighting in the mountains really isn't as great as you're thinking it will be. Your commanders will likely die from the various BARBARIC FOOLS peoples who inhabit the area, and I imagine the Afghans will take the war as an opportunity to kill as many of the heathen oppressors as possible. Afghanistan is known as the Graveyard as Empires, and as I said before, I don't particularly want that of Russia to be buried there. As for military innovation, I highly doubt it. You wouldn't learn anything from fighting us Ruskies that you either wouldn't already have known or that would have been actually useful. I continue to push the point that a war in the 'stans would do nothing more than weaken both Russia and the Mughals so that they can be attacked by their enemies, of which there are many for both nations.

[G-Tech Corporation]

I mean, we could also fight a desultory war out in the backend of nowhere over scraps of mountain and goats. Mughal Desertistan is, after all, best Desertistan. It would give me an opportunity to entertain my more restive commanders and keep the Mughal armies from going soft, as well as give them practice fighting against modestly European forces. And you can practice your mountain fighting for the intermittent guerrilla warfare that's going to plague the region for the next few decades.

I'm actually rather liking the idea. It'll be a nice proving ground for Mughal military innovation.

There are more than mountains and goats in Central Asia though. As Halford Mackinder said; the power which controls Central Asia—richly endowed with natural resources—shall ultimately be the "empire of the world". That being said, I doubt the resources would be recoverable without European tools and knowledge, of which only one of us has/has the ability to get with ease. Now I'm gonna be honest, fighting in the mountains really isn't as great as you're thinking it will be. Your commanders will likely die from the various BARBARIC FOOLS peoples who inhabit the area, and I imagine the Afghans will take the war as an opportunity to kill as many of the heathen oppressors as possible. Afghanistan is known as the Graveyard as Empires, and as I said before, I don't particularly want that of Russia to be buried there. As for military innovation, I highly doubt it. You wouldn't learn anything from fighting us Ruskies that you either wouldn't already have known or that would have been actually useful. I continue to push the point that a war in the 'stans would do nothing more than weaken both Russia and the Mughals so that they can be attacked by their enemies, of which there are many for both nations.

Well, the Afghans have been part of the Mughal Empire since a century after the Empire's formation, so while some of them certainly don't like the Mughals, the Mughals were first people of Central Asia, then of India. It might give an opportunity for rebellions and whatnot, but that's part of the fun.

As for extraction with European technology, I doubt even the Europeans have the means it takes to get resources out of the ground in much of Central Asia- a lot of those deposits are only starting to be extracted recently IRL. Either way, it'll give a nice point of interaction as I try to recruit European engineers for the process, a diplomatic minefield for any nation that might choose to take Mughal money in exchange for Russian antipathy.

As for military innovation, sure it will. The Mughals haven't fought a properly armed and disciplined enemy of non-Asian provenance, well, ever really. They haven't even fought an enemy of proper size and scale to resist for a generation at least. Far better to learn about the evolution of European tactics firsthand where neither side can bring much force to bear than when Britain tries invading through Persia.

Afghanistan is the Graveyard of Empires if you invade it, far less so if the Afghans are in your army. And I can pull in some Gurkhas for amusement value.

[Caltarania]

There are more than mountains and goats in Central Asia though. As Halford Mackinder said; the power which controls Central Asia—richly endowed with natural resources—shall ultimately be the "empire of the world". That being said, I doubt the resources would be recoverable without European tools and knowledge, of which only one of us has/has the ability to get with ease. Now I'm gonna be honest, fighting in the mountains really isn't as great as you're thinking it will be. Your commanders will likely die from the various BARBARIC FOOLS peoples who inhabit the area, and I imagine the Afghans will take the war as an opportunity to kill as many of the heathen oppressors as possible. Afghanistan is known as the Graveyard as Empires, and as I said before, I don't particularly want that of Russia to be buried there. As for military innovation, I highly doubt it. You wouldn't learn anything from fighting us Ruskies that you either wouldn't already have known or that would have been actually useful. I continue to push the point that a war in the 'stans would do nothing more than weaken both Russia and the Mughals so that they can be attacked by their enemies, of which there are many for both nations.

Well, the Afghans have been part of the Mughal Empire since a century after the Empire's formation, so while some of them certainly don't like the Mughals, the Mughals were first people of Central Asia, then of India. It might give an opportunity for rebellions and whatnot, but that's part of the fun.

As for extraction with European technology, I doubt even the Europeans have the means it takes to get resources out of the ground in much of Central Asia- a lot of those deposits are only starting to be extracted recently IRL. Either way, it'll give a nice point of interaction as I try to recruit European engineers for the process, a diplomatic minefield for any nation that might choose to take Mughal money in exchange for Russian antipathy.

As for military innovation, sure it will. The Mughals haven't fought a properly armed and disciplined enemy of non-Asian provenance, well, ever really. They haven't even fought an enemy of proper size and scale to resist for a generation at least. Far better to learn about the evolution of European tactics firsthand where neither side can bring much force to bear than when Britain tries invading through Persia.

Afghanistan is the Graveyard of Empires if you invade it, far less so if the Afghans are in your army. And I can pull in some Gurkhas for amusement value.

No, I mean the Afghans will revolt if they see a chance, just as the Poles would or the Irish would post-famine. It's a fact of life at this point.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Either way it'd be a lot easier for the Russians to take advantage of them. I don't think you understand the amount of hostility towards the Mughals in Europe. Most Europeans see the Mughals as upstarts; uncivilized folk who have refused to bow to Western imperialism.

Not particularly; Russian tactics and the Russian military are still outdated as fuck when compared to the rest of Europe. If you base warfare against Europeans on that of fighting the Russians, then you are going to be extremely surprised when the other Europeans use actual tactics and modern weaponry.

I wouldn't intend to invade Afghanistan, why would I? If the Mughals tried anything, we'd push them out of our borders and hold the line while we sued for a peace. We don't want anything that the Mughals have, there is no point for us to try to take it. Once again, don't be surprised if those Afghan regiments simply "disappear" during the war in order to fight for an independent Afghanistan.

I don't want a war against the Mughals, honestly I'd rather have them as a friendly neighbour than an enemy, but if you are willing to provoke a war - without sufficient cause, it's worth noting - against Russia, then don't be surprised when we effectively tell Europe that the Mughals can't abide by there deals, so that we should therefore all go in, a la opium war, in order to enforce them to accept that the west is the best.

[Baja California y Sonora]

Was my App accepted?

[Caltarania]

Was my App accepted?

Yes.

[Liecthenbourg]

Was my App accepted?

Are you interested in trade with the Columbians?

[G-Tech Corporation]

Well, the Afghans have been part of the Mughal Empire since a century after the Empire's formation, so while some of them certainly don't like the Mughals, the Mughals were first people of Central Asia, then of India. It might give an opportunity for rebellions and whatnot, but that's part of the fun.

As for extraction with European technology, I doubt even the Europeans have the means it takes to get resources out of the ground in much of Central Asia- a lot of those deposits are only starting to be extracted recently IRL. Either way, it'll give a nice point of interaction as I try to recruit European engineers for the process, a diplomatic minefield for any nation that might choose to take Mughal money in exchange for Russian antipathy.

As for military innovation, sure it will. The Mughals haven't fought a properly armed and disciplined enemy of non-Asian provenance, well, ever really. They haven't even fought an enemy of proper size and scale to resist for a generation at least. Far better to learn about the evolution of European tactics firsthand where neither side can bring much force to bear than when Britain tries invading through Persia.

Afghanistan is the Graveyard of Empires if you invade it, far less so if the Afghans are in your army. And I can pull in some Gurkhas for amusement value.

No, I mean the Afghans will revolt if they see a chance, just as the Poles would or the Irish would post-famine. It's a fact of life at this point.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Either way it'd be a lot easier for the Russians to take advantage of them. I don't think you understand the amount of hostility towards the Mughals in Europe. Most Europeans see the Mughals as upstarts; uncivilized folk who have refused to bow to Western imperialism.

Not particularly; Russian tactics and the Russian military are still outdated as fuck when compared to the rest of Europe. If you base warfare against Europeans on that of fighting the Russians, then you are going to be extremely surprised when the other Europeans use actual tactics and modern weaponry.

I wouldn't intend to invade Afghanistan, why would I? If the Mughals tried anything, we'd push them out of our borders and hold the line while we sued for a peace. We don't want anything that the Mughals have, there is no point for us to try to take it. Once again, don't be surprised if those Afghan regiments simply "disappear" during the war in order to fight for an independent Afghanistan.

I don't want a war against the Mughals, honestly I'd rather have them as a friendly neighbour than an enemy, but if you are willing to provoke a war - without sufficient cause, it's worth noting - against Russia, then don't be surprised when we effectively tell Europe that the Mughals can't abide by there deals, so that we should therefore all go in, a la opium war, in order to enforce them to accept that the west is the best.

What deal? As far as I can tell, the Mughals have no direct deal running with Russia anywhere in Central Asia. If Russia chooses to ignore the Khan-Emperor's acceptance of the fealty of the Khan of Kashgar that's his own affair, but it certainly isn't a violation of any treaty.

As for revolts, I've already noted those could be an issue with the more far-flung parts of the Afghan governates. Even so, that's similar to, oh, the Welsh rebelling against Britain in the present day. Sure, they aren't the formal technical seat of rule, but they've been part of the Empire since its nascency, and have far more in common with their rulers than folks down in Sri Lanka, or even stretches of Burma. I can see discontent over war causing protests or riots, but those an entirely different matter to insurrection.

And I'm fully aware that Russia =\= Prussia. That said, Russia is more like Prussia than Persia is like Prussia, obviously.

As for Western antipathy, perhaps. Not bowing to Imperialism is quite different than being hated by the West though- consider the case of Siam. They stayed independent through the entire period to one extent or another, and they were heathen barbarians. Antipathy against the Mughals is a far more mixed bag- the Mughaks fought with the Christian Crusader states against the Muslims of Persia several times, and Western paternalism us of two parts; Christianity, and Westernization. Europeans always liked Abyssinia more than the Sudan, by way of example.

[The Kingdom of Glitter]

>Austria things it is in any economic position to form a 'Second Reich' after getting its head bashed in by Sardinia and France less than two years ago.

That's cute.

[The Jonathanian States]

>Austria things it is in any economic position to form a 'Second Reich' after getting its head bashed in by Sardinia and France less than two years ago.

That's cute.

Heck, economy isn't even the principal matter.
It's, err, politics. Yes, politics.

[The Kingdom of Glitter]

>Austria things it is in any economic position to form a 'Second Reich' after getting its head bashed in by Sardinia and France less than two years ago.

That's cute.

Heck, economy isn't even the principal matter.
It's, err, politics. Yes, politics.

Yup totally, and the cost of raising another army after incurring such a loss has nothing to do with it.



I also agree with European "politics" (balance of power) resulting in Austria getting body slammed.

[G-Tech Corporation]

To be clear Calt, I'm talking about that Central Asia province on the map that is Tajikistan centered around Dushbanke. Not half of Central Asia or anything like that.

[The Jonathanian States]

Heck, economy isn't even the principal matter.
It's, err, politics. Yes, politics.

Yup totally, and the cost of raising another army after incurring such a loss has nothing to do with it.



I also agree with European "politics" (balance of power) resulting in Austria getting body slammed.

Army? What sort of army are you talking about? Prussia is all about dat peace. That's why we'd send a delegation to Sadova.

[The New Lowlands]

right, now that Franz is out of the way, time to make the Second Reich

Thank you János Libényi

AUSTRIAN GENOCIDE 1K853

[Liecthenbourg]

right, now that Franz is out of the way, time to make the Second Reich

Thank you János Libényi

AUSTRIAN GENOCIDE 1K853

GENOCIDE EVERYTHING.

[The Jonathanian States]

right, now that Franz is out of the way, time to make the Second Reich

Thank you János Libényi

AUSTRIAN GENOCIDE 1K853

AUSTRIAN GENOCIDE 1K853

GENOCIDE EVERYTHING.

Impeach monarchy, legalize genocide, Austrians are theft - TNL1853?