Star Wars: Galactic Schisms/OOC-Sign Ups Thread

[Hangar 18]

According to the wiki, the Imperial Army only numbers in the tens of trillions. That means they are outnumbered more than 100 to 1. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Army
That means, it's highly unlikely that the Republic had much more than that, as, supposedly, the military only increased in size after the Empire came about.

Also, it is stated that at THE END OF THE WAR, the CIS had quintillions of droids. Now, I highly doubt that the Republic could destroy even 1% of the total amount of droids in the time given. Hence, they were all simply deactivated, as a much easier, more cost effect solution.

It's a bit of a conundrum really. Either a Republic soldier could successfully fight ~1000 battle droids, the CIS leadership was so incompetent that they lost with a 1000:1 advantage, or someone messed up figures somewhere.

What makes you think this?

[G-Tech Corporation]

But, we have already established earlier in the thread that in most later battles, the CIS commanders were set up for failure by the Sith.

Certainly- but we also need to be reasonable about the impact that had on the war. In a war of thousands of battles being conducted daily on millions of worlds, even Palpatine could only orchestrate broad strokes. And if we accept your premise of the Imperial Military being larger than the Republic Military, we simply run into a numbers problem.

If the CIS has, say, one quintillion droids at the end of the second year of the Clone Wars, and the Republic has an army of five trillion soldiers, the CIS has 200,000 battle droids for every soldier of the Republic. I'm not certain anyone has ever been able to prove a mathematic point where a commander simply cannot lose, but I'm willing to bet that force ratio is so lopsided even the machinations of a Sith Lord couldn't swing the balance.

So either we have to assume the droid figures can't be right, or assume the Republic figures can't be right. Because otherwise we might as well just throw any sort of reason out of the window, because one soldier + bad advice = 200,000 wrecked droids.

[Hangar 18]

But, we have already established earlier in the thread that in most later battles, the CIS commanders were set up for failure by the Sith.

Certainly- but we also need to be reasonable about the impact that had on the war. In a war of thousands of battles being conducted daily on millions of worlds, even Palpatine could only orchestrate broad strokes. And if we accept your premise of the Imperial Military being larger than the Republic Military, we simply run into a numbers problem.

If the CIS has, say, one quintillion droids at the end of the second year of the Clone Wars, and the Republic has an army of five trillion soldiers, the CIS has 200,000 battle droids for every soldier of the Republic. I'm not certain anyone has ever been able to prove a mathematic point where a commander simply cannot lose, but I'm willing to bet that force ratio is so lopsided even the machinations of a Sith Lord couldn't swing the balance.

So either we have to assume the droid figures can't be right, or assume the Republic figures can't be right. Because otherwise we might as well just throw any sort of reason out of the window, because one soldier + bad advice = 200,000 wrecked droids.

But there was also a huge excess of droids after the war. And, a large amount of non clone like the wookies fighting.

Regardless, I believe that it is likely just a matter of a mistake in numbers that gets more and more questionable the more you look into it. So, let's not.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Certainly- but we also need to be reasonable about the impact that had on the war. In a war of thousands of battles being conducted daily on millions of worlds, even Palpatine could only orchestrate broad strokes. And if we accept your premise of the Imperial Military being larger than the Republic Military, we simply run into a numbers problem.

If the CIS has, say, one quintillion droids at the end of the second year of the Clone Wars, and the Republic has an army of five trillion soldiers, the CIS has 200,000 battle droids for every soldier of the Republic. I'm not certain anyone has ever been able to prove a mathematic point where a commander simply cannot lose, but I'm willing to bet that force ratio is so lopsided even the machinations of a Sith Lord couldn't swing the balance.

So either we have to assume the droid figures can't be right, or assume the Republic figures can't be right. Because otherwise we might as well just throw any sort of reason out of the window, because one soldier + bad advice = 200,000 wrecked droids.

But there was also a huge excess of droids after the war. And, a large amount of non clone like the wookies fighting.

Regardless, I believe that it is likely just a matter of a mistake in numbers that gets more and more questionable the more you look into it. So, let's not.

Trouble is looking at it is fairly important- if the current reactivated forces of the CIS are larger than the population of the galaxy several times over, we might as well just all pack up our bags and go home.

Oh, and just to clarify your "non-clone fighting statement", I wasn't only counting Clones. That figure included all the Wookies and other random citizen soldiers. Even if we assume the Republic mobilized every inhabitant, we're still looking at hundreds of battle droids per person.

[Hangar 18]

But there was also a huge excess of droids after the war. And, a large amount of non clone like the wookies fighting.

Regardless, I believe that it is likely just a matter of a mistake in numbers that gets more and more questionable the more you look into it. So, let's not.

Trouble is looking at it is fairly important- if the current reactivated forces of the CIS are larger than the population of the galaxy several times over, we might as well just all pack up our bags and go home.

A majority of these droids, likely around 65%, are B1 Battle Droids. Their only advantage is numbers, as they are incompetent, and easily taken down.

Another thing that could have contributed to the CIS loss was a lack of proper Commanders. The Republic had 1000+ Jedi, whereas the droid armies had few commanders who were being sent on useless terror campaigns by the Sith.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Trouble is looking at it is fairly important- if the current reactivated forces of the CIS are larger than the population of the galaxy several times over, we might as well just all pack up our bags and go home.

A majority of these droids, likely around 65%, are B1 Battle Droids. Their only advantage is numbers, as they are incompetent, and easily taken down.

Another thing that could have contributed to the CIS loss was a lack of proper Commanders. The Republic had 1000+ Jedi, whereas the droid armies had few commanders who were being sent on useless terror campaigns by the Sith.

Both entirely fair points. But, as I noted in the edit above, even assuming every sentient is mobilized on a realistic level of military readiness, 9%ish in the military, those B1s alone outnumber any military force by several hundred to one. They may be as useless as any droid has ever been, but I bet those are odds they can win at very comfortably. Ditto with commanders- all a CIS commander has to say is "walk forward" and that's enough strategy to defeat any foe.

Might as well just sod off and join the CIS as splinter group reactivating droids. Grand Moff Kuat has mere weeks to live.

[Hangar 18]

A majority of these droids, likely around 65%, are B1 Battle Droids. Their only advantage is numbers, as they are incompetent, and easily taken down.

Another thing that could have contributed to the CIS loss was a lack of proper Commanders. The Republic had 1000+ Jedi, whereas the droid armies had few commanders who were being sent on useless terror campaigns by the Sith.

Both entirely fair points. But, as I noted in the edit above, even assuming every sentient is mobilized on a realistic level of military readiness, 9%ish in the military, those B1s alone outnumber any military force by several hundred to one. They may be as useless as any droid has ever been, but I bet those are odds they can win at very comfortably. Ditto with commanders- all a CIS commander has to say is "walk forward" and that's enough strategy to defeat any foe.

Might as well just sod off and join the CIS as splinter group deactivating droids. Grand Moff Kuat has mere weeks to live.

You remember when I said we didn't have much ships? Well, we'd need a lot more ships than we have to transport all those droids in one sitting. Sure, we'll still have a huge advantage on the ground, our abilities to fight in space won't be nearly as capable. In fact, an average Imperial fleet would decimate one of ours, which is why you'll see us utilize quick blitzkrieg like methods. But, prolonged battle is not a good thing for the current CIS.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Both entirely fair points. But, as I noted in the edit above, even assuming every sentient is mobilized on a realistic level of military readiness, 9%ish in the military, those B1s alone outnumber any military force by several hundred to one. They may be as useless as any droid has ever been, but I bet those are odds they can win at very comfortably. Ditto with commanders- all a CIS commander has to say is "walk forward" and that's enough strategy to defeat any foe.

Might as well just sod off and join the CIS as splinter group deactivating droids. Grand Moff Kuat has mere weeks to live.

You remember when I said we didn't have much ships? Well, we'd need a lot more ships than we have to transport all those droids in one sitting. Sure, we'll still have a huge advantage on the ground, our abilities to fight in space won't be nearly as capable. In fact, an average Imperial fleet would decimate one of ours, which is why you'll see us utilize quick blitzkrieg like methods. But, prolonged battle is not a good thing for the current CIS.

A fair point. If the average sized vessel in the CIS navy is a Munificent cruiser, and each Munificent hauls canonically 150,000 B1 battle droids, we're talking a total deployable force of 450,000,000 battle droids, give or take. That's still a lot, but potentially reasonable. It does raise the question of what the other 599,999,999,450,000,000 battle droids are up to though.

Perhaps if we tone back the activated percentage it would be more balanced. Even accounting for Dread and Malevolence being very busy over the years, and visiting a world every day to reactivate its forces, that's still only a few hundred worlds reactivated sum total. My math skills aren't very good as we've proven, but I'm willing to bet CIS worlds weren't garrisoned with a quadrillion battle droids each.

[Hangar 18]

You remember when I said we didn't have much ships? Well, we'd need a lot more ships than we have to transport all those droids in one sitting. Sure, we'll still have a huge advantage on the ground, our abilities to fight in space won't be nearly as capable. In fact, an average Imperial fleet would decimate one of ours, which is why you'll see us utilize quick blitzkrieg like methods. But, prolonged battle is not a good thing for the current CIS.

A fair point. If the average sized vessel in the CIS navy is a Munificent cruiser, and each Munificent hauls canonically 150,000 B1 battle droids, we're talking a total deployable force of 450,000,000 battle droids, give or take. That's still a lot, but potentially reasonable. It does raise the question of what the other 599,999,999,450,000,000 battle droids are up to though.

Perhaps if we tone back the activated percentage it would be more balanced. Even accounting for Dread and Malevolence being very busy over the years, and visiting a world every day to reactivate its forces, that's still only a few hundred worlds reactivated sum total. My math skills aren't very good as we've proven, but I'm willing to bet CIS worlds weren't garrisoned with a quadrillion battle droids each.

I imagine many storage facilities were simply storage planets or moons, filled with an immense amount of droids. And you know, those things can tuck away very very well. I'll scale it back to 10%, but I'm not going to go any further. Most of the droids we have are simply garrisons, available for use when positions must be filled. After all, those B1s get burnt through like paper.

[The Rebel Alliances]

But there was also a huge excess of droids after the war. And, a large amount of non clone like the wookies fighting.

Regardless, I believe that it is likely just a matter of a mistake in numbers that gets more and more questionable the more you look into it. So, let's not.

Trouble is looking at it is fairly important- if the current reactivated forces of the CIS are larger than the population of the galaxy several times over, we might as well just all pack up our bags and go home.

Oh, and just to clarify your "non-clone fighting statement", I wasn't only counting Clones. That figure included all the Wookies and other random citizen soldiers. Even if we assume the Republic mobilized every inhabitant, we're still looking at hundreds of battle droids per person.

Let's not forget that the Clone Wars, were not fought with just droids and clones. Actually both sides had organic forces and the Republic used the Judicials, I think there called and the many of thousands of individual sector forces from various Republic Worlds to bolster the ranks. The Republic had no 'Centralized' military prior to the clones, that is not to say there was none, just none under the Chancellor's control. The many thousands of worlds maintained their own defense forces which cooperated with the GAR. So, this was not just Droid Numbers vs Clone Numbers.

As for the issue at hand, Hangar is correct having large amounts of droids are one thing, actually having the logistics and fleets to support those forces is a whole different story. And one does not win a war with B1s alone.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Trouble is looking at it is fairly important- if the current reactivated forces of the CIS are larger than the population of the galaxy several times over, we might as well just all pack up our bags and go home.

Oh, and just to clarify your "non-clone fighting statement", I wasn't only counting Clones. That figure included all the Wookies and other random citizen soldiers. Even if we assume the Republic mobilized every inhabitant, we're still looking at hundreds of battle droids per person.

Let's not forget that the Clone Wars, were not fought with just droids and clones. Actually both sides had organic forces and the Republic used the Judicials, I think there called and the many of thousands of individual sector forces from various Republic Worlds to bolster the ranks. The Republic had no 'Centralized' military prior to the clones, that is not to say there was none, just none under the Chancellor's control. The many thousands of worlds maintained their own defense forces which cooperated with the GAR. So, this was not just Droid Numbers vs Clone Numbers.

As for the issue at hand, Hangar is correct having large amounts of droids are one thing, actually having the logistics and fleets to support those forces is a whole different story. And one does not win a war with B1s alone.

Oh no, I'm certainly aware of that. I made the point earlier about realistic mobilization levels for sentient creatures in the galaxy- at the time of the Empire, the galaxy's population was estimated at one hundred quadrillion beings. That means that, merely by activating 10% of the quintillions of battle droids theoretically held by the CIS, Dread/whoever currently already hold four battle droids of some persuasion for every man, woman, and child of every race on every planet in the known universe.

[New Neros]

A major weakness of the B1 is it needs the presence of a droid control vessel, and without those, they're useless. Why fight the B1 zerg rush when you can knock out a hundred thousand by killing one ship?

[G-Tech Corporation]

A major weakness of the B1 is it needs the presence of a droid control vessel, and without those, they're useless. Why fight the B1 zerg rush when you can knock out a hundred thousand by killing one ship?

Hardly- by the time of the late Clone Wars it is explicitly noted that most B1 models had been outfitted with independent logic processors. Consider the dozens of battles in which not a single Droid Control Ship was involved.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/B1_battle_droid

[New Neros]

A major weakness of the B1 is it needs the presence of a droid control vessel, and without those, they're useless. Why fight the B1 zerg rush when you can knock out a hundred thousand by killing one ship?

Hardly- by the time of the late Clone Wars it is explicitly noted that most B1 models had been outfitted with independent logic processors. Consider the dozens of battles in which not a single Droid Control Ship was involved.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/B1_battle_droid

Right, that's mostly a weakness during the Invasion of Naboo for plot reasons. The sheer numbers is what made the CIS a threat, but as Rob said before, we'd be dealing with a logistical nightmare to put boots on the ground with one percent of one percent of our reactivated forces. It would be akin to having quintillions in reserve, not as active combatants.

[Mirakai]

Ah...

Don't you just love the Expanded Universe constantly contradicting itself...

[G-Tech Corporation]

Ah...

Don't you just love the Expanded Universe constantly contradicting itself...

Just wait until The Force Awakens turns everything past Endor on its head.

Dark Emperor Trioculus! Reformed Gray Jedi on Coruscant! Fanatical Massai Stormtroopers!

[Mirakai]

Ah...

Don't you just love the Expanded Universe constantly contradicting itself...

Just wait until The Force Awakens turns everything past Endor on its head.

Dark Emperor Trioculus! Reformed Gray Jedi on Coruscant! Fanatical Massai Stormtroopers!

Well, Lucas already declared everything except for the movies and the Clone Wars cartoon non-canon. Only EU works completed after the declaration are canon

[G-Tech Corporation]

Just wait until The Force Awakens turns everything past Endor on its head.

Dark Emperor Trioculus! Reformed Gray Jedi on Coruscant! Fanatical Massai Stormtroopers!

Well, Lucas already declared everything except for the movies and the Clone Wars cartoon non-canon. Only EU works completed after the declaration are canon

To be fair, canon could probably do without Trioculus.

[Greater Dmanian]

That lack of cover used by the Clones and Droids throughout the movies and cartoons is mind blowing, the clones especially have to be insane to stand out in the open against hordes of battle droids, their aim might not be great but when hundreds of them are firing on you the odds of being hit increase dramatically when you are standing in the open firing at them. The clone wars would have been a cake walk if you just set up light machine guns in some shielded trenches and turned the droids into scrap as they marched at a steady pace towards your lines, every battle would be like the Somme of WW1...

But alas they must use blaster rifles that fire slower than I spit (and are less accurate) to take on hordes of enemies.

[Hangar 18]

That lack of cover used by the Clones and Droids throughout the movies and cartoons is mind blowing, the clones especially have to be insane to stand out in the open against hordes of battle droids, their aim might not be great but when hundreds of them are firing on you the odds of being hit increase dramatically when you are standing in the open firing at them. The clone wars would have been a cake walk if you just set up light machine guns in some shielded trenches and turned the droids into scrap as they marched at a steady pace towards your lines, every battle would be like the Somme of WW1...

But alas they must use blaster rifles that fire slower than I spit (and are less accurate) to take on hordes of enemies.

Eh. Even if they were entrenched, if the CIS command wasn't sabotaged, the sheer numbers would have more than certainly one. Each time a droid was killed, another was ready to take it's place.

[The Rebel Alliances]

Hardly- by the time of the late Clone Wars it is explicitly noted that most B1 models had been outfitted with independent logic processors. Consider the dozens of battles in which not a single Droid Control Ship was involved.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/B1_battle_droid

Right, that's mostly a weakness during the Invasion of Naboo for plot reasons. The sheer numbers is what made the CIS a threat, but as Rob said before, we'd be dealing with a logistical nightmare to put boots on the ground with one percent of one percent of our reactivated forces. It would be akin to having quintillions in reserve, not as active combatants.

AS G pointed out, the CIS was actually more dangerous after Naboo because their defeat there exposed the glaring weakness of slaving droids to a control ship. So, by the time of the Clone Wars, it was mostly a non issue.

[Hangar 18]

Right, that's mostly a weakness during the Invasion of Naboo for plot reasons. The sheer numbers is what made the CIS a threat, but as Rob said before, we'd be dealing with a logistical nightmare to put boots on the ground with one percent of one percent of our reactivated forces. It would be akin to having quintillions in reserve, not as active combatants.

AS G pointed out, the CIS was actually more dangerous after Naboo because their defeat there exposed the glaring weakness of slaving droids to a control ship. So, by the time of the Clone Wars, it was mostly a non issue.

Right. Those were Trade Federation droids, whereas, these are CIS droids. There is a distinct difference.

[G-Tech Corporation]

That lack of cover used by the Clones and Droids throughout the movies and cartoons is mind blowing, the clones especially have to be insane to stand out in the open against hordes of battle droids, their aim might not be great but when hundreds of them are firing on you the odds of being hit increase dramatically when you are standing in the open firing at them. The clone wars would have been a cake walk if you just set up light machine guns in some shielded trenches and turned the droids into scrap as they marched at a steady pace towards your lines, every battle would be like the Somme of WW1...

But alas they must use blaster rifles that fire slower than I spit (and are less accurate) to take on hordes of enemies.

Eh. Even if they were entrenched, if the CIS command wasn't sabotaged, the sheer numbers would have more than certainly one. Each time a droid was killed, another was ready to take it's place.

Debatable. I'm not seeing command errors as being equivalent to a several thousand to one advantage- even prior to the Deactivation, the CIS had essentially been driven back to the Outer Rim, and a large amount of even those strongholds were under siege. Look, for instance, at commanders such as Trench- they were certainly competent, and a bit of bad advice doesn't turn a good commander into one that can suffer kill ratios lopsided enough to let one man destroy thousands of droids.

[Hangar 18]

Eh. Even if they were entrenched, if the CIS command wasn't sabotaged, the sheer numbers would have more than certainly one. Each time a droid was killed, another was ready to take it's place.

Debatable. I'm not seeing command errors as being equivalent to a several thousand to one advantage- even prior to the Deactivation, the CIS had essentially been driven back to the Outer Rim, and a large amount of even those strongholds were under siege. Look, for instance, at commanders such as Trench- they were certainly competent, and a bit of bad advice doesn't turn a good commander into one that can suffer kill ratios lopsided enough to let one man destroy thousands of droids.

It happened to Grievous, and he was one of the best in the galaxy at the time. Not only that, but again, the Republic had thousands of commanders, whereas, the CIS only had a handful of competent generals, which were, as we've established, set up to fail.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Anyway, my point through this whole discussion is that we should perhaps take our figures with a grain of salt, and contemplate more reasonable interpretations. I can't find the original source material for the wikis that state the CIS had quintillions of troops, nor those that state sizes for the GAR.

One Clone Trooper was interpreted to be worth about twenty standard B1 battle droids, fifty after the sabotage the ARC troopers conducted on central designs. What do folks think would be a reasonable interpretation of the total strength of the Republic, including local defense forces, at the time of the end of the Clone Wars?