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Who would win a battle on Endor between the Rebel Alliance and Nod?

Rebel Alliance
11
61%
Brotherhood of Nod
7
39%
 
Total votes : 18

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G-Tech Corporation
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Postby G-Tech Corporation » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:17 pm

Hangar 18 wrote:
Pantorrum wrote:
Ok, I am thinking 300 Million with the following specifics-

180 Million B1 Droids
100 Million Super Battle Droids
19 Million BX Series Commando Droids
600,000 Droidekas
400,000 Crab Droids
That's a pretty good army.

This is good. Still doesn't scrape 1% though. But good.

G-Tech Corporation wrote:
Again, though, that figure conceives of an army of tens of millions of battle droids not only being held on a world in the heart of Imperial space, but also being bought off the open market, not manufactured. I'm not seeing millions of battle droids being bought escaping Imperial notice, especially in the context of a Separatist sympathizing world. A few million could be concealed, at a stretch. Nearly a billion, hmm, seems implausible.


Well, given it's been established that we've reactivated 12% of the former CIS army, that puts us at...

600 quadrillion.


What, are you assuming the CIS had ~9 quintillion droids active? "Quintillions" =\= "largest quintillion number".

Anyways, I'm not disputing numbers. The CIS has a lot of droids. I'm disputing hundreds of millions of droids being activated and bought on a Core system known for rebellion without the local governor/Moff/Imperial Intelligence murdering the living daylights out of their purchaser/shutting the operation down. That's like saying Charleston is launching an uprising against the Federal government with the 100,000 man army they've recruited from Venezuela.
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G-Tech Corporation
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Postby G-Tech Corporation » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:18 pm

Hangar 18 wrote:
G-Tech Corporation wrote:
Actually Rebels definitely weakest faction.

Best keep in mind though, those quintillions were still outright defeated by the GAR.

Plus twenty years of tech and infrastructure, so.

Besides, I think you'll find those numbers can be altered.

No, they weren't. Those quintillions were around at the end of the war, and simply deactivated.


Sure they were. Even assuming ramping production, the CIS must have lost quintillions over the course of the conflict alone, seeing as almost all of their major worlds were captured by the time of the deactivation. I'm not sure what other definition of defeat you want. The Separatist Council was reduced to hiding from pursuing Republic forces.
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Pantorrum
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Postby Pantorrum » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:19 pm

I consider myself a bit of a star wars buff, having read dozens of EU books and spent hours on Wookipedia... :p
From what I have seen, if it wasn't for the Jedi, the war would have been won by he CIS rather quickly. Their immense army was more than a match for the Clone Army. Unfortunately, there were over 10,000 Jedi at the start of the Clone Wars.
The CIS was wealthy, huge, and intimidating. The Republic should have in all rights lost the war. And if it wasn't for the plan Sidious had, I feel the War would have been drastically different.
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Hangar 18
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Postby Hangar 18 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:23 pm

G-Tech Corporation wrote:
Hangar 18 wrote:This is good. Still doesn't scrape 1% though. But good.



Well, given it's been established that we've reactivated 12% of the former CIS army, that puts us at...

600 quadrillion.


What, are you assuming the CIS had ~9 quintillion droids active? "Quintillions" =\= "largest quintillion number".

Anyways, I'm not disputing numbers. The CIS has a lot of droids. I'm disputing hundreds of millions of droids being activated and bought on a Core system known for rebellion without the local governor/Moff/Imperial Intelligence murdering the living daylights out of their purchaser/shutting the operation down. That's like saying Charleston is launching an uprising against the Federal government with the 100,000 man army they've recruited from Venezuela.

Actually, I did he math assuming they had 5 quintillion.

Oh, yeah, it's certainly does not make sense for there to be more than 300 million droids. But, imma let Pant handle this.
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Postby G-Tech Corporation » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:25 pm

Pantorrum wrote:I consider myself a bit of a star wars buff, having read dozens of EU books and spent hours on Wookipedia... :p
From what I have seen, if it wasn't for the Jedi, the war would have been won by he CIS rather quickly. Their immense army was more than a match for the Clone Army. Unfortunately, there were over 10,000 Jedi at the start of the Clone Wars.
The CIS was wealthy, huge, and intimidating. The Republic should have in all rights lost the war. And if it wasn't for the plan Sidious had, I feel the War would have been drastically different.


Except even ten thousand Jedi was only ten Jedi for every galactic sector, or about one Jedi for every eighteen million worlds. Even assuming only 1% of those worlds were active war zones, for every planet with a Jedi fighting on it, there were hundreds of thousands where only regular forces of the CIS and Republic were squaring off. If the GAR couldn't stand up the the CIS without Jedi assistance, the Republic lost thousands of battles for every engagement they won.

That simply doesn't make sense- so somehow the Republic must have been able to win, Jedi or no Jedi.
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New Neros
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Postby New Neros » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:25 pm

Dixmix wrote:You know, I have half a mind to join the CIS as a criminal business partner.


We love monies, want more droids, more ships, more worlds!

Just in case, so we don't leave anything up to assumptions, petty reasonings, and general dickery, it's this part in particular:

Image


and then this:

Hangar 18 wrote:Alright, so 12% it is then.


Assuming 2 quintillion (as it is plural - more than one), that still gives us 240 quadrillion droids.

G-Tech Corporation wrote:
New Neros wrote:>CIS weakest faction

Please, fellas, we can talk this over. Last sentence, first paragraph: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Separatist_Droid_Army


Actually Rebels definitely weakest faction.

Best keep in mind though, those quintillions were still outright defeated by the GAR.

Plus twenty years of tech and infrastructure, so.

Besides, I think you'll find those numbers can be altered.


Alright, cool, wank the Empire for us, we all love it.

The only person who won the Clone Wars was Palpatine. Clones and Droids were pawns, neither really had a chance to win. Clones were loyal to Palpatine, Droids could be shut off. There was no "outright defeat", find it, and post it as a source.

A blaster is a blaster, getting shot kills no matter who or what is pulling the trigger. You'll learn that there is little technological disparity between now and the Clone Wars twenty years ago. We see no real advancement during the Empire except for the development of superweapons and a military build up - Droids are almost forgotten by the Empire, as well.

Altered? We'll build more. And then some more. You have nothing.
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G-Tech Corporation
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Postby G-Tech Corporation » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:26 pm

Hangar 18 wrote:
G-Tech Corporation wrote:
What, are you assuming the CIS had ~9 quintillion droids active? "Quintillions" =\= "largest quintillion number".

Anyways, I'm not disputing numbers. The CIS has a lot of droids. I'm disputing hundreds of millions of droids being activated and bought on a Core system known for rebellion without the local governor/Moff/Imperial Intelligence murdering the living daylights out of their purchaser/shutting the operation down. That's like saying Charleston is launching an uprising against the Federal government with the 100,000 man army they've recruited from Venezuela.

Actually, I did he math assuming they had 5 quintillion.

Oh, yeah, it's certainly does not make sense for there to be more than 300 million droids. But, imma let Pant handle this.


Ah, derp, math skillz.
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New Neros
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Postby New Neros » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:28 pm

G-Tech Corporation wrote:
Pantorrum wrote:I consider myself a bit of a star wars buff, having read dozens of EU books and spent hours on Wookipedia... :p
From what I have seen, if it wasn't for the Jedi, the war would have been won by he CIS rather quickly. Their immense army was more than a match for the Clone Army. Unfortunately, there were over 10,000 Jedi at the start of the Clone Wars.
The CIS was wealthy, huge, and intimidating. The Republic should have in all rights lost the war. And if it wasn't for the plan Sidious had, I feel the War would have been drastically different.


Except even ten thousand Jedi was only ten Jedi for every galactic sector, or about one Jedi for every eighteen million worlds. Even assuming only 1% of those worlds were active war zones, for every planet with a Jedi fighting on it, there were hundreds of thousands where only regular forces of the CIS and Republic were squaring off. If the GAR couldn't stand up the the CIS without Jedi assistance, the Republic lost thousands of battles for every engagement they won.

That simply doesn't make sense- so somehow the Republic must have been able to win, Jedi or no Jedi.


Droids could, and did, regularly, take out Jedi. Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbesdgkQcXk

G-Tech Corporation wrote:
Hangar 18 wrote:Actually, I did he math assuming they had 5 quintillion.

Oh, yeah, it's certainly does not make sense for there to be more than 300 million droids. But, imma let Pant handle this.


Ah, derp, math skillz.


Just stop, seriously, you're embarrassing yourself with your style of "debating". You lost, go home, take a nap.
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Hangar 18
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Postby Hangar 18 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:29 pm

New Neros wrote:
G-Tech Corporation wrote:
Except even ten thousand Jedi was only ten Jedi for every galactic sector, or about one Jedi for every eighteen million worlds. Even assuming only 1% of those worlds were active war zones, for every planet with a Jedi fighting on it, there were hundreds of thousands where only regular forces of the CIS and Republic were squaring off. If the GAR couldn't stand up the the CIS without Jedi assistance, the Republic lost thousands of battles for every engagement they won.

That simply doesn't make sense- so somehow the Republic must have been able to win, Jedi or no Jedi.


Droids could, and did, regularly, take out Jedi. Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbesdgkQcXk

G-Tech Corporation wrote:
Ah, derp, math skillz.


Just stop, seriously, you're embarrassing yourself with your style of "debating". You lost, go home, take a nap.

I think he was apologizing, as he accidentally fucked up, not insulting my math skills.
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New Neros
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Postby New Neros » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:32 pm

Hangar 18 wrote:
New Neros wrote:
Droids could, and did, regularly, take out Jedi. Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbesdgkQcXk



Just stop, seriously, you're embarrassing yourself with your style of "debating". You lost, go home, take a nap.

I think he was apologizing, as he accidentally fucked up, not insulting my math skills.


I really don't care, man, I'm just sick of his whiny kindergarten level bullshit because "hurr muh realism" like fucking hell, we have space samurai with plasma torches, sit the fuck down. Let people do their own shit, if they have sources and reference material, why even debate, or as G-Tech likes to do, talk down and be a complete narb about it? It's simply toxic.
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Pantorrum
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Postby Pantorrum » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:34 pm

The strategies of the Jedi were used all over the place by the GAR. Not to mention. the Key battles had Jedi participating in them. As long as you win the most important battles.

If you consider the Republic had a very small army compared to the Empire, you have to wonder how it was possible they won. Really, they were outnumbers by far. Some estimates say they had between 1.2 and 3 Million clones. Compared to quintillions of droids, that's nothing.
I expect to pass through this world but once. Any good, therefore, that I can do or any kindness I can show to any fellow creature, let me do it now. Let me not defer or neglect it for I shall not pass this way again- Etienne de Grellet du Mabillier
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Dixmix
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Postby Dixmix » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:37 pm

Hey everyone... how about them Pod Races?

Also, does anyone would like to meet me?

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Segmentia
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Postby Segmentia » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:41 pm

Dixmix wrote:Hey everyone... how about them Pod Races?

Also, does anyone would like to meet me?


I could. My Darth is on her way back to the galaxy proper, and I have an agent of Thrawn around Kuat currently.
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Dixmix
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Postby Dixmix » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:44 pm

Segmentia wrote:
Dixmix wrote:Hey everyone... how about them Pod Races?

Also, does anyone would like to meet me?


I could. My Darth is on her way back to the galaxy proper, and I have an agent of Thrawn around Kuat currently.

Well, I am on Nar Shaddaa with a Hutt blockade and about to strike back at the merc army hunting him in order to make a point.

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Hangar 18
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Postby Hangar 18 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:47 pm

New Neros wrote:
Hangar 18 wrote:I think he was apologizing, as he accidentally fucked up, not insulting my math skills.


I really don't care, man, I'm just sick of his whiny kindergarten level bullshit because "hurr muh realism" like fucking hell, we have space samurai with plasma torches, sit the fuck down. Let people do their own shit, if they have sources and reference material, why even debate, or as G-Tech likes to do, talk down and be a complete narb about it? It's simply toxic.

Neros, calm down.
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G-Tech Corporation
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby G-Tech Corporation » Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:41 pm

New Neros wrote:
Dixmix wrote:You know, I have half a mind to join the CIS as a criminal business partner.


We love monies, want more droids, more ships, more worlds!

Just in case, so we don't leave anything up to assumptions, petty reasonings, and general dickery, it's this part in particular:

Image


and then this:

Hangar 18 wrote:Alright, so 12% it is then.


Assuming 2 quintillion (as it is plural - more than one), that still gives us 240 quadrillion droids.

G-Tech Corporation wrote:
Actually Rebels definitely weakest faction.

Best keep in mind though, those quintillions were still outright defeated by the GAR.

Plus twenty years of tech and infrastructure, so.

Besides, I think you'll find those numbers can be altered.


Alright, cool, wank the Empire for us, we all love it.

The only person who won the Clone Wars was Palpatine. Clones and Droids were pawns, neither really had a chance to win. Clones were loyal to Palpatine, Droids could be shut off. There was no "outright defeat", find it, and post it as a source.

A blaster is a blaster, getting shot kills no matter who or what is pulling the trigger. You'll learn that there is little technological disparity between now and the Clone Wars twenty years ago. We see no real advancement during the Empire except for the development of superweapons and a military build up - Droids are almost forgotten by the Empire, as well.

Altered? We'll build more. And then some more. You have nothing.


Sure- I hate to do this to you, but we'll dance.

Let's go through CIS worlds.

Aargonar- Conquered by GAR.
Abraxin- Seceded, no information.
Cato Nemoidia- Conquered by GAR in 19 BBY.
Cristophsis- Conquered by GAR in 22 BBY.
Dantooine- Pacified by GAR.
Deko Nemoidia- Conquered by GAR.
Elrood- Seceded, reintegrated after deactivation.
Felucia- Conquered by GAR in 19 BBY.
Fondor- Seceded, reintegrated after deactivation.
Geonosis- Conquered by GAR.
Iego- Occupied by CIS, later abandoned.
Jabiim- Conquered by GAR in 19 BBY.
Mustafar- Seceded, held until deactivation.
Muunlist- Sort of seceded, under IGBC. Conquered by GAR.
Mygeeto- Conquered by GAR in 19 BBY.
Nemoidia- Conquered by GAR in 19 BBY.
Olanet- Seceded, held until deactivation likely.

And that's just the first half of the list of CIS worlds, the ones whose names I recognized. My point is that, by the end of the war, quintillions of droids aside, the CIS was losing. Badly. You can check my research all you want- I just used Wookiepedia's list of CIS affiliated worlds.

As for technological advancement, let's consider simply the fact that the Republic beat the CIS with 1100-meter Venators, and the Empire's mainstay is the 1600-meter Imperial class. A good rule of thumb in the SW universe is that bigger is better. The Empire has Executors running around, focused ion beams have been developed, etc. It certainly isn't night and day in terms of tech, but we're still talking about twenty years of military-industrial cooperation and research under the military obsessed Empire and Palpatine, who was desperately trying to prepare for the Vong.
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G-Tech Corporation
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby G-Tech Corporation » Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:45 pm

New Neros wrote:
Hangar 18 wrote:I think he was apologizing, as he accidentally fucked up, not insulting my math skills.


I really don't care, man, I'm just sick of his whiny kindergarten level bullshit because "hurr muh realism" like fucking hell, we have space samurai with plasma torches, sit the fuck down. Let people do their own shit, if they have sources and reference material, why even debate, or as G-Tech likes to do, talk down and be a complete narb about it? It's simply toxic.


Gotta take a chill pill mate. Sources and reference material are precisely what we're talking about- I've been civil through this dialogue, and there's no reason we can't easily talk through these things. Why do I care so much? Because if we all just twiddle our fingers and say "poof because I want to", we might as well just go write our own bad fan fiction.

As for embarrassing myself with my style of debating, I'd love to see where I embarrassed myself. If you have any pointers, I'd be glad to hear. I think applying logic even to fictional situations is a rational way to resolve differences of opinion, especially when considering sources that are supposed to be internally consistent- what is your superior method?
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Postby Hangar 18 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:48 pm

G-Tech Corporation wrote:
New Neros wrote:
I really don't care, man, I'm just sick of his whiny kindergarten level bullshit because "hurr muh realism" like fucking hell, we have space samurai with plasma torches, sit the fuck down. Let people do their own shit, if they have sources and reference material, why even debate, or as G-Tech likes to do, talk down and be a complete narb about it? It's simply toxic.


Gotta take a chill pill mate. Sources and reference material are precisely what we're talking about- I've been civil through this dialogue, and there's no reason we can't easily talk through these things. Why do I care so much? Because if we all just twiddle our fingers and say "poof because I want to", we might as well just go write our own bad fan fiction.

As for embarrassing myself with my style of debating, I'd love to see where I embarrassed myself. If you have any pointers, I'd be glad to hear. I think applying logic even to fictional situations is a rational way to resolve differences of opinion, especially when considering sources that are supposed to be internally consistent- what is your superior method?

Listen mate. You don't need to argue every single little minute detail in every post. That is just really annoying. You and Neros both need to chill out in different ways.
“I don't like jelly donuts.”
- Yngwie Malmsteen

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Hangar 18
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Postby Hangar 18 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:49 pm

G-Tech Corporation wrote:
New Neros wrote:
We love monies, want more droids, more ships, more worlds!

Just in case, so we don't leave anything up to assumptions, petty reasonings, and general dickery, it's this part in particular:

Image


and then this:



Assuming 2 quintillion (as it is plural - more than one), that still gives us 240 quadrillion droids.



Alright, cool, wank the Empire for us, we all love it.

The only person who won the Clone Wars was Palpatine. Clones and Droids were pawns, neither really had a chance to win. Clones were loyal to Palpatine, Droids could be shut off. There was no "outright defeat", find it, and post it as a source.

A blaster is a blaster, getting shot kills no matter who or what is pulling the trigger. You'll learn that there is little technological disparity between now and the Clone Wars twenty years ago. We see no real advancement during the Empire except for the development of superweapons and a military build up - Droids are almost forgotten by the Empire, as well.

Altered? We'll build more. And then some more. You have nothing.


Sure- I hate to do this to you, but we'll dance.

Let's go through CIS worlds.

Aargonar- Conquered by GAR.
Abraxin- Seceded, no information.
Cato Nemoidia- Conquered by GAR in 19 BBY.
Cristophsis- Conquered by GAR in 22 BBY.
Dantooine- Pacified by GAR.
Deko Nemoidia- Conquered by GAR.
Elrood- Seceded, reintegrated after deactivation.
Felucia- Conquered by GAR in 19 BBY.
Fondor- Seceded, reintegrated after deactivation.
Geonosis- Conquered by GAR.
Iego- Occupied by CIS, later abandoned.
Jabiim- Conquered by GAR in 19 BBY.
Mustafar- Seceded, held until deactivation.
Muunlist- Sort of seceded, under IGBC. Conquered by GAR.
Mygeeto- Conquered by GAR in 19 BBY.
Nemoidia- Conquered by GAR in 19 BBY.
Olanet- Seceded, held until deactivation likely.

And that's just the first half of the list of CIS worlds, the ones whose names I recognized. My point is that, by the end of the war, quintillions of droids aside, the CIS was losing. Badly. You can check my research all you want- I just used Wookiepedia's list of CIS affiliated worlds.

As for technological advancement, let's consider simply the fact that the Republic beat the CIS with 1100-meter Venators, and the Empire's mainstay is the 1600-meter Imperial class. A good rule of thumb in the SW universe is that bigger is better. The Empire has Executors running around, focused ion beams have been developed, etc. It certainly isn't night and day in terms of tech, but we're still talking about twenty years of military-industrial cooperation and research under the military obsessed Empire and Palpatine, who was desperately trying to prepare for the Vong.

The Separatists were actually stomping up until the invasion of Coruscant, a move planned by Palpatine to cripple the CIS, and keep him in power.
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G-Tech Corporation
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby G-Tech Corporation » Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:58 pm

Pantorrum wrote:The strategies of the Jedi were used all over the place by the GAR. Not to mention. the Key battles had Jedi participating in them. As long as you win the most important battles.

If you consider the Republic had a very small army compared to the Empire, you have to wonder how it was possible they won. Really, they were outnumbers by far. Some estimates say they had between 1.2 and 3 Million clones. Compared to quintillions of droids, that's nothing.


Strategy is quite useful when conducting campaigns over entire sectors- even so, it's fair to say that the Jedi, while a contributory factor to the Republic victory, didn't have any measurable effect on an actual martial standpoint. Even if every Jedi kill, oh, 10,000 battle droids, we're still talking one hundred million droids destroyed out of the countless quadrillions that were defeated over the course of the conflict.

My point is actually exactly what Neros kindly backed me on with that video link- droids in numbers could overwhelm Jedi, so the Clones and other Imperials must face been the ones who won 99.9% of all battles.

The three million figure, to my knowledge, was only at the beginning of the war; I've seen estimates of total clone force by the end hitting a hundred trillion, though I'm not sure how folks came up with such a figure. It seems more likely that most of the numbers of soldiers required to fight the CIS came from ordinary soldiers of the Republic in the quadrillions and quintillions necessary to fight the CIS's army. The Clones and Jedi most likely acted as elite shock troops, helping to reinforce absolutely vital sectors and win pivotal battles. It's outright stated in canon that there were whole sectors of the war that never saw a clone trooper or a Jedi.
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G-Tech Corporation
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby G-Tech Corporation » Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:01 pm

Hangar 18 wrote:
G-Tech Corporation wrote:
Gotta take a chill pill mate. Sources and reference material are precisely what we're talking about- I've been civil through this dialogue, and there's no reason we can't easily talk through these things. Why do I care so much? Because if we all just twiddle our fingers and say "poof because I want to", we might as well just go write our own bad fan fiction.

As for embarrassing myself with my style of debating, I'd love to see where I embarrassed myself. If you have any pointers, I'd be glad to hear. I think applying logic even to fictional situations is a rational way to resolve differences of opinion, especially when considering sources that are supposed to be internally consistent- what is your superior method?

Listen mate. You don't need to argue every single little minute detail in every post. That is just really annoying. You and Neros both need to chill out in different ways.


Really, I'm not arguing most posts- just things I think might need to be addressed; things like millions of battle droids popping into existence in Imperial Core Worlds, godlike hacking powers, etc. I mean, I would expect you to do the same if I, say, said Grand Moff Kuat had been constructing a fleet of ten Executors in secret who are now being deployed to Geonosis. Does that make sense?
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Hangar 18
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Postby Hangar 18 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:07 pm

G-Tech Corporation wrote:
Pantorrum wrote:The strategies of the Jedi were used all over the place by the GAR. Not to mention. the Key battles had Jedi participating in them. As long as you win the most important battles.

If you consider the Republic had a very small army compared to the Empire, you have to wonder how it was possible they won. Really, they were outnumbers by far. Some estimates say they had between 1.2 and 3 Million clones. Compared to quintillions of droids, that's nothing.


Strategy is quite useful when conducting campaigns over entire sectors- even so, it's fair to say that the Jedi, while a contributory factor to the Republic victory, didn't have any measurable effect on an actual martial standpoint. Even if every Jedi kill, oh, 10,000 battle droids, we're still talking one hundred million droids destroyed out of the countless quadrillions that were defeated over the course of the conflict.

My point is actually exactly what Neros kindly backed me on with that video link- droids in numbers could overwhelm Jedi, so the Clones and other Imperials must face been the ones who won 99.9% of all battles.

The three million figure, to my knowledge, was only at the beginning of the war; I've seen estimates of total clone force by the end hitting a hundred trillion, though I'm not sure how folks came up with such a figure. It seems more likely that most of the numbers of soldiers required to fight the CIS came from ordinary soldiers of the Republic in the quadrillions and quintillions necessary to fight the CIS's army. The Clones and Jedi most likely acted as elite shock troops, helping to reinforce absolutely vital sectors and win pivotal battles. It's outright stated in canon that there were whole sectors of the war that never saw a clone trooper or a Jedi.

According to the wiki, the Imperial Army only numbers in the tens of trillions. That means they are outnumbered more than 100 to 1. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Army
That means, it's highly unlikely that the Republic had much more than that, as, supposedly, the military only increased in size after the Empire came about.

Also, it is stated that at THE END OF THE WAR, the CIS had quintillions of droids. Now, I highly doubt that the Republic could destroy even 1% of the total amount of droids in the time given. Hence, they were all simply deactivated, as a much easier, more cost effect solution.
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby G-Tech Corporation » Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:08 pm

Hangar 18 wrote:
G-Tech Corporation wrote:
Sure- I hate to do this to you, but we'll dance.

Let's go through CIS worlds.

Aargonar- Conquered by GAR.
Abraxin- Seceded, no information.
Cato Nemoidia- Conquered by GAR in 19 BBY.
Cristophsis- Conquered by GAR in 22 BBY.
Dantooine- Pacified by GAR.
Deko Nemoidia- Conquered by GAR.
Elrood- Seceded, reintegrated after deactivation.
Felucia- Conquered by GAR in 19 BBY.
Fondor- Seceded, reintegrated after deactivation.
Geonosis- Conquered by GAR.
Iego- Occupied by CIS, later abandoned.
Jabiim- Conquered by GAR in 19 BBY.
Mustafar- Seceded, held until deactivation.
Muunlist- Sort of seceded, under IGBC. Conquered by GAR.
Mygeeto- Conquered by GAR in 19 BBY.
Nemoidia- Conquered by GAR in 19 BBY.
Olanet- Seceded, held until deactivation likely.

And that's just the first half of the list of CIS worlds, the ones whose names I recognized. My point is that, by the end of the war, quintillions of droids aside, the CIS was losing. Badly. You can check my research all you want- I just used Wookiepedia's list of CIS affiliated worlds.

As for technological advancement, let's consider simply the fact that the Republic beat the CIS with 1100-meter Venators, and the Empire's mainstay is the 1600-meter Imperial class. A good rule of thumb in the SW universe is that bigger is better. The Empire has Executors running around, focused ion beams have been developed, etc. It certainly isn't night and day in terms of tech, but we're still talking about twenty years of military-industrial cooperation and research under the military obsessed Empire and Palpatine, who was desperately trying to prepare for the Vong.

The Separatists were actually stomping up until the invasion of Coruscant, a move planned by Palpatine to cripple the CIS, and keep him in power.


Actually, the Separatists were stomping until the end of Operation Durge's Lance; after it peetered out their strength was largely spent, and I quote, "Despite the upset of Operation Durge's Lance and the terror spread by Grievous throughout the Core, the Republic was at last gaining traction and now had the momentum on its side." After this we see several sieges broken in the galactic south, the beginning of the Outer Rim Sieges, and major Republic victories in the New Territories as well as the Serreno sector. Only a thousand CIS starships were lost a Coruscant, and it was an event engineered by Palpatine to throw the Jedi off the trail of Darth Sidious.

Anyway, as I noted above, the majority of important CIS worlds had been outright conquered by 19 BBY even before the deactivation order went out. That would seem to argue the Republic was, if not competent victorious, well on the way there.
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Hangar 18
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Ex-Nation

Postby Hangar 18 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:13 pm

G-Tech Corporation wrote:
Hangar 18 wrote:Listen mate. You don't need to argue every single little minute detail in every post. That is just really annoying. You and Neros both need to chill out in different ways.


Really, I'm not arguing most posts- just things I think might need to be addressed; things like millions of battle droids popping into existence in Imperial Core Worlds, godlike hacking powers, etc. I mean, I would expect you to do the same if I, say, said Grand Moff Kuat had been constructing a fleet of ten Executors in secret who are now being deployed to Geonosis. Does that make sense?

Understandable. I said it is probably unlikely that hundreds of millions of battle droids could pop into Imperial space as well. As for the CIS as a whole, you must understand that Malevolence and Dread were working on this for quite some time, and, while activating and moving the droids was easy, the ships were not nearly as easy to fix. The fleet of the CIS isn't even close to what it used to be, as, the ships are available, they just aren't in great repair. As of right now, there is probably only around 3,000 ships. It is on the ground that the CIS excels at, with it's incredibly massive army, the largest one in the galaxy.

G-Tech Corporation wrote:
Hangar 18 wrote:The Separatists were actually stomping up until the invasion of Coruscant, a move planned by Palpatine to cripple the CIS, and keep him in power.


Actually, the Separatists were stomping until the end of Operation Durge's Lance; after it peetered out their strength was largely spent, and I quote, "Despite the upset of Operation Durge's Lance and the terror spread by Grievous throughout the Core, the Republic was at last gaining traction and now had the momentum on its side." After this we see several sieges broken in the galactic south, the beginning of the Outer Rim Sieges, and major Republic victories in the New Territories as well as the Serreno sector. Only a thousand CIS starships were lost a Coruscant, and it was an event engineered by Palpatine to throw the Jedi off the trail of Darth Sidious.

Anyway, as I noted above, the majority of important CIS worlds had been outright conquered by 19 BBY even before the deactivation order went out. That would seem to argue the Republic was, if not competent victorious, well on the way there.


But, we have already established earlier in the thread that in most later battles, the CIS commanders were set up for failure by the Sith.
“I don't like jelly donuts.”
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby G-Tech Corporation » Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:18 pm

Hangar 18 wrote:
G-Tech Corporation wrote:
Strategy is quite useful when conducting campaigns over entire sectors- even so, it's fair to say that the Jedi, while a contributory factor to the Republic victory, didn't have any measurable effect on an actual martial standpoint. Even if every Jedi kill, oh, 10,000 battle droids, we're still talking one hundred million droids destroyed out of the countless quadrillions that were defeated over the course of the conflict.

My point is actually exactly what Neros kindly backed me on with that video link- droids in numbers could overwhelm Jedi, so the Clones and other Imperials must face been the ones who won 99.9% of all battles.

The three million figure, to my knowledge, was only at the beginning of the war; I've seen estimates of total clone force by the end hitting a hundred trillion, though I'm not sure how folks came up with such a figure. It seems more likely that most of the numbers of soldiers required to fight the CIS came from ordinary soldiers of the Republic in the quadrillions and quintillions necessary to fight the CIS's army. The Clones and Jedi most likely acted as elite shock troops, helping to reinforce absolutely vital sectors and win pivotal battles. It's outright stated in canon that there were whole sectors of the war that never saw a clone trooper or a Jedi.

According to the wiki, the Imperial Army only numbers in the tens of trillions. That means they are outnumbered more than 100 to 1. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Army
That means, it's highly unlikely that the Republic had much more than that, as, supposedly, the military only increased in size after the Empire came about.

Also, it is stated that at THE END OF THE WAR, the CIS had quintillions of droids. Now, I highly doubt that the Republic could destroy even 1% of the total amount of droids in the time given. Hence, they were all simply deactivated, as a much easier, more cost effect solution.


Sure- that makes sense after a fashion. But do you see the difficulty with believing the Republic only had a few trillion soldiers under arms when they obviously at least stood up to quadrillions of battle droids, and the population of Coruscant alone was several trillion? Let's put it this way- compare the Republic to a reasonable power we know about, the U.S. in WW2. 9% of all Americans served in the armed forces in WW2. Wookiepedia states that the Empire had a population of about a hundred quadrillion beings. Let's assume 70% of those were loyal Republic worlds in the Clone War, and contributed soldiers on a rate near that of America in WW2- we're talking armed forces on the quadrillions scale.

It's a bit of a conundrum really. Either a Republic soldier could successfully fight ~1000 battle droids, the CIS leadership was so incompetent that they lost with a 1000:1 advantage, or someone messed up figures somewhere.
Quite the unofficial fellow. Former P2TM Mentor specializing in faction and nation RPs, as well as RPGs. Always happy to help.

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