With Fire and Steel - AH RP (OOC/OPEN)

[The New Lowlands]

I never said China was 'better' than Europe. I think the argument that European culture was the ideal "industrializing force" is a dumb argument.

Just bolstering my point here. I believe that steel was first made by the Wu, preceding the Europeans by over 1,000 years. Also, the Song dynasty saw intensive industry in steel production, and coal mining. No other premodern state advanced as nearly as starting an industrial revolution than the Southern Song.

>high
>level
>economic
>equilibrium

[Sabara]

Just bolstering my point here. I believe that steel was first made by the Wu, preceding the Europeans by over 1,000 years. Also, the Song dynasty saw intensive industry in steel production, and coal mining. No other premodern state advanced as nearly as starting an industrial revolution than the Southern Song.

>high
>level
>economic
>equilibrium

Sure, the Qing did. But that only resulted as a byproduct of Europe colonizing North America..

[The Grand Republic of Hannover]

I never said China was 'better' than Europe. I think the argument that European culture was the ideal "industrializing force" is a dumb argument.

Let me guess. Another player trying to industrialize China?

[Sabara]

I never said China was 'better' than Europe. I think the argument that European culture was the ideal "industrializing force" is a dumb argument.

Let me guess. Another player trying to industrialize China?

"Another player?" Is there something wrong with that?

[The New Lowlands]

>high
>level
>economic
>equilibrium

Sure, the Qing did. But that only resulted as a byproduct of Europe colonizing North America..

no lol
most major chinese societies

because when your country is essentially a huge rice field, you get enough to eat and you can't be bothered to invent heavy artillery

[Caltarania]

I never said China was 'better' than Europe. I think the argument that European culture was the ideal "industrializing force" is a dumb argument.

Let me guess. Another player trying to industrialize China?

I am offended! I'm doing no such thing.

[Lunas Legion]

I never said China was 'better' than Europe. I think the argument that European culture was the ideal "industrializing force" is a dumb argument.

literally nobody started talking about culture as a serious cause for China's non-industrialisation.

the reason why China and associates can't/couldn't/wouldn't industrialise is because they're caught in a high-level economic equilibrium.

And because Chinese coal (the fuel of the industrial revolution) was dry coal, which meant steam pumps and thus steam power never needed to be invented to pump the water out, as was the case with European coal (which was wet coal).

Plus China's lack of external conflict. War is the locomotive of history; nothing has ever provided as great an incentive as war for scientific development.

[The Grand Republic of Hannover]

Let me guess. Another player trying to industrialize China?

"Another player?" Is there something wrong with that?

Yes. China cannot realistically industrialize at this time. Corruption, controlled market, lack of private investment.

Let me guess. Another player trying to industrialize China?

I am offended! I'm doing no such thing.

Wait, you are China? I thought it was the other player

[Sabara]

Sure, the Qing did. But that only resulted as a byproduct of Europe colonizing North America..

no lol
most major chinese societies

because when your country is essentially a huge rice field, you get enough to eat and you can't be bothered to invent heavy artillery

You might need to check out your Chinese history.
How does that explain the explorations of the Ming?

[The New Lowlands]

"Another player?" Is there something wrong with that?

Yes. China cannot realistically industrialize at this time. Corruption, controlled market, lack of private investment.

this is literally an alternate history RP

[The Grand Republic of Hannover]

Yes. China cannot realistically industrialize at this time. Corruption, controlled market, lack of private investment.

this is literally an alternate history RP

I know. But isn't there a POD?

[Sabara]

literally nobody started talking about culture as a serious cause for China's non-industrialisation.

the reason why China and associates can't/couldn't/wouldn't industrialise is because they're caught in a high-level economic equilibrium.

And because Chinese coal (the fuel of the industrial revolution) was dry coal, which meant steam pumps and thus steam power never needed to be invented to pump the water out, as was the case with European coal (which was wet coal).

Plus China's lack of external conflict. War is the locomotive of history; nothing has ever provided as great an incentive as war for scientific development.

Isn't the PoD of this RP 1204? Why can't we have more wars in East Asia?

[The New Lowlands]

no lol
most major chinese societies

because when your country is essentially a huge rice field, you get enough to eat and you can't be bothered to invent heavy artillery

You might need to check out your Chinese history.
How does that explain the explorations of the Ming?

bored nobles buying boats

germany starved all the time, they also didn't industrialise
this is europe. note all the mountains in the way of potato fields

this is china. note all of the populated parts being fed by giant rivers and forming excellent potato fields

And because Chinese coal (the fuel of the industrial revolution) was dry coal, which meant steam pumps and thus steam power never needed to be invented to pump the water out, as was the case with European coal (which was wet coal).

Plus China's lack of external conflict. War is the locomotive of history; nothing has ever provided as great an incentive as war for scientific development.

Isn't the PoD of this RP 1204? Why can't we have more wars in East Asia?

if you want to have a recognisable east asia (e.g. china being one country) then you can't

[Sabara]

You might need to check out your Chinese history.
How does that explain the explorations of the Ming?

bored nobles buying boats

germany starved all the time, they also didn't industrialise
this is europe. note all the mountains in the way of potato fields

this is china. note all of the populated parts being fed by giant rivers and forming excellent potato fields

I don't get how that really applies to my post... Europe had plenty of food, (or well, as much as China did). I really don't think that's a contributing factor to exploration.

[Caltarania]

I am offended! I'm doing no such thing.

Wait, you are China? I thought it was the other player

I'm China, the other player is Korea (with Japan).

[The Grand Republic of Hannover]

Wait, you are China? I thought it was the other player

I'm China, the other player is Korea (with Japan).

Ah I see. I didn't know

[The New Lowlands]

bored nobles buying boats

germany starved all the time, they also didn't industrialise
this is europe. note all the mountains in the way of potato fields

this is china. note all of the populated parts being fed by giant rivers and forming excellent potato fields

I don't get how that really applies to my post... Europe had plenty of food, (or well, as much as China did). I really don't think that's a contributing factor to exploration.

until the discovery of the americas, europe was essentially in a state of permanent starvation, so much so that Adam Smith, in his great treatise on economics, had to explain to Europeans the incomprehensible concept that, in the Americas, people had enough to eat. Permanent wars between shitty irrelevant europoor countries only helped to further the continent's desperate scrabble or whatever, and made Europeans amazingly good at killing each other, and especially burning down farms n shit.

exploration was just a side effect of europe trying to feed itself, and trying to get enough money to do the same.

[Sabara]

Anyhow, I think we're beating a dead horse at this point. I don't think this argument is going to change anyone's view.

[Lunas Legion]

Isn't the PoD of this RP 1204? Why can't we have more wars in East Asia?

if you want to have a recognisable east asia (e.g. china being one country) then you can't

Yup. Everyone in Asia was either China, Chinese vassal or had natural defences (Japan and the Indonesian sultanates had the sea, India had the Himilayas, Siberia has size, the weather and a massive lack of population density). As soon as China unites, there's no wars to provide catalysts, since no one is stupid enough to take on China in an offensive war, and China can't hit anyone because natural barriers.

[Sabara]

I don't get how that really applies to my post... Europe had plenty of food, (or well, as much as China did). I really don't think that's a contributing factor to exploration.

until the discovery of the americas, europe was essentially in a state of permanent starvation, so much so that Adam Smith, in his great treatise on economics, had to explain to Europeans the incomprehensible concept that, in the Americas, people had enough to eat. Permanent wars between shitty irrelevant europoor countries only helped to further the continent's desperate scrabble or whatever, and made Europeans amazingly good at killing each other, and especially burning down farms n shit.

exploration was just a side effect of europe trying to feed itself, and trying to get enough money to do the same.

Exploration was the side of effect of Iberia trying to get more gold.

If you notice China's history (and much of the rest of the world) is a cycle of famine.

[The New Lowlands]

until the discovery of the americas, europe was essentially in a state of permanent starvation, so much so that Adam Smith, in his great treatise on economics, had to explain to Europeans the incomprehensible concept that, in the Americas, people had enough to eat. Permanent wars between shitty irrelevant europoor countries only helped to further the continent's desperate scrabble or whatever, and made Europeans amazingly good at killing each other, and especially burning down farms n shit.

exploration was just a side effect of europe trying to feed itself, and trying to get enough money to do the same.

Exploration was the side of effect of Iberia trying to get more gold.

If you notice China's history (and much of the rest of the world) is a cycle of famine.

feed itself, trying to get more gold to fight wars/feed itself, all of these are largely synonymous in Europe.

[Sabara]

if you want to have a recognisable east asia (e.g. china being one country) then you can't

Yup. Everyone in Asia was either China, Chinese vassal or had natural defences (Japan and the Indonesian sultanates had the sea, India had the Himilayas, Siberia has size, the weather and a massive lack of population density). As soon as China unites, there's no wars to provide catalysts, since no one is stupid enough to take on China in an offensive war, and China can't hit anyone because natural barriers.

But when China's divided... millions of people die.

[The New Lowlands]

Yup. Everyone in Asia was either China, Chinese vassal or had natural defences (Japan and the Indonesian sultanates had the sea, India had the Himilayas, Siberia has size, the weather and a massive lack of population density). As soon as China unites, there's no wars to provide catalysts, since no one is stupid enough to take on China in an offensive war, and China can't hit anyone because natural barriers.

But when China's divided... millions of people die.

ergo
god
bless
america

[Lunas Legion]

Yup. Everyone in Asia was either China, Chinese vassal or had natural defences (Japan and the Indonesian sultanates had the sea, India had the Himilayas, Siberia has size, the weather and a massive lack of population density). As soon as China unites, there's no wars to provide catalysts, since no one is stupid enough to take on China in an offensive war, and China can't hit anyone because natural barriers.

But when China's divided... millions of people die.

And? People die. It happens.

Life is cheap and fleeting in a country of millions. Progress requires sacrifice.

[The Grand Republic of Hannover]

But when China's divided... millions of people die.

And? People die. It happens.

Life is cheap and fleeting in a country of millions. Progress requires sacrifice.

Mao Zedong: *Nods, nods* Mhmmm...