The Mechanics' Guild: An RP(G) Community

[G-Tech Corporation]

Hmm. Interesting take. Usually I hear complaints about too much complexity and too many choices, but you think the opposite was the problem?

I tend to start folks out slow to make RPs accessible to even those not overly familiar with how mechanics-based RPing works. Hark does the same, usually, but I wouldn’t call that a problem categorically. Too much choice drives people away as surely as too little. Even in the case of Cosmos, Britain felt they had made the wrong decisions, out of a very limited set of possibilities, and so effectively quit.

In my opinion, it's not about too much or too little complexity/choices. I don't even know why you'd think that's the problem or what TBS was doing. No, when TBS said that you and Hark have a tendency to make people start with nothing, they meant that people start out poor, powerless, and bland. Being poor and powerless isn't a deal-breaker in many games, even in Corporate Cosmos. Being bland, however, is. I know we've trod over how mechanics is supposed to make players equal and reduce dependence on fluff and fancy not-necessarily-good writing, but the fact of the matter is that starting Corporations/Powers are bland. Corporate Regulations don't do enough and the Innovation Mechanic is expensive. What you should have done is add more customization options that are not penalized by the game.

D&D, for all its bad points, has customization options. Same for any good and popular Tabletop System. Some of the custom options might be overpowered and need nerfs, but a good GM can manage that with nerfs if need be. Add that to the fact that, contrary to popular opinion, customization options do not require adding too much complexity. Just have: [Power/Corporation] can have 3 - 5 Custom Achievements.

As for the bolded part, do not use me to bolster your position. Do not misrepresent me to bolster your arguments. That is a low blow. No, what drove me away was every possible choice in the aforementioned limited set of choices leading either to poverty or unwanted moral choices (aka being anti-poor and classist).

Edit: Misunderstand and misrepresent me and TBS again and I will have to add you as a Foe to avoid having to read your posts. In fact, I will do so temporarily right now as you have a history of completely missing the point and tackling topics that are tangential to the subject we are getting at.

Ah, didn’t even remember you were Britain actually. Just recalled that the British player (you, it seems) were distressed by feeling they had made the wrong decisions, which to me implied that the mechanics weren’t clear/simple enough to easily grasp so as one could feel they had made an informed choice.

As for “why not customization”, well, that’s the rub really. You say that giving 3-5 personal custom abilities to each player is easy if one is a “good OP”, but I have to disagree. Especially when building a newish system relatively ad hoc on the fly, how one feature or another balances against each other is more a matter of trial and error and slow experience than anything that can simply be known through a mystical sixth sense. If you have ten writers, trying to get thirty different customized interactions to work nicely together is a devilish lot of back and forth and mess. The exact sort of unbalanced shenanigans that drive away new RPers is only too likely to emerge from such a mess. Take, case in point, the Major and Minor Advancements from Corporate Cosmos- originally I thought Minors would be far more common, but I drastically overestimated how frequently people would post.

I’ll wait until you get back from Foe to continue this conversation, I suppose. Not the most productive use of time, but your call.

[Dragos Bee]

I feel bad about what I said earlier, but you do have a problem of missing the point.

[G-Tech Corporation]

I feel bad about what I said earlier, but you do have a problem of missing the point.

‘fraid I’m only as good or bad as any other person reading a text medium. Not sure why you had to jump to open hostility at the first trace of me mentioning your thoughts, especially since I had forgotten they were even yours.

[Dragos Bee]

In my opinion, it's not about too much or too little complexity/choices. I don't even know why you'd think that's the problem or what TBS was doing. No, when TBS said that you and Hark have a tendency to make people start with nothing, they meant that people start out poor, powerless, and bland. Being poor and powerless isn't a deal-breaker in many games, even in Corporate Cosmos. Being bland, however, is. I know we've trod over how mechanics is supposed to make players equal and reduce dependence on fluff and fancy not-necessarily-good writing, but the fact of the matter is that starting Corporations/Powers are bland. Corporate Regulations don't do enough and the Innovation Mechanic is expensive. What you should have done is add more customization options that are not penalized by the game.

D&D, for all its bad points, has customization options. Same for any good and popular Tabletop System. Some of the custom options might be overpowered and need nerfs, but a good GM can manage that with nerfs if need be. Add that to the fact that, contrary to popular opinion, customization options do not require adding too much complexity. Just have: [Power/Corporation] can have 3 - 5 Custom Achievements.

As for the bolded part, do not use me to bolster your position. Do not misrepresent me to bolster your arguments. That is a low blow. No, what drove me away was every possible choice in the aforementioned limited set of choices leading either to poverty or unwanted moral choices (aka being anti-poor and classist).

Edit: Misunderstand and misrepresent me and TBS again and I will have to add you as a Foe to avoid having to read your posts. In fact, I will do so temporarily right now as you have a history of completely missing the point and tackling topics that are tangential to the subject we are getting at.

Ah, didn’t even remember you were Britain actually. Just recalled that the British player (you, it seems) were distressed by feeling they had made the wrong decisions, which to me implied that the mechanics weren’t clear/simple enough to easily grasp so as one could feel they had made an informed choice.

As for “why not customization”, well, that’s the rub really. You say that giving 3-5 personal custom abilities to each player is easy if one is a “good OP”, but I have to disagree. Especially when building a newish system relatively ad hoc on the fly, how one feature or another balances against each other is more a matter of trial and error and slow experience than anything that can simply be known through a mystical sixth sense. If you have ten writers, trying to get thirty different customized interactions to work nicely together is a devilish lot of back and forth and mess. The exact sort of unbalanced shenanigans that drive away new RPers is only too likely to emerge from such a mess. Take, case in point, the Major and Minor Advancements from Corporate Cosmos- originally I thought Minors would be far more common, but I drastically overestimated how frequently people would post.

I’ll wait until you get back from Foe to continue this conversation, I suppose. Not the most productive use of time, but your call.

I removed you from Foe, and that's a more on-point way of saying what you mean.

Reply to your large second paragraph: True, but the answer to that is to play-test things before you release them, not release them right away and assume that everything would go as planned. At least consult people before deciding that a game system that you made 'relatively ad hoc on the fly' would be fun and functional (in that order).

Reply to your most recent post: I didn't know you forgot, okay? I admit fault on that count, and I am sorry.

Edit 2: I deeply apologize.

[Harkback Union]

Hey guys, so looking for some quick feedback on Corporate Cosmos, for those who participated. Any reason you stopped posting or left the RP? I thought the setting, particularly letting folks build their own research and mechanics, was a solid concept, but we never got very far despite the potential of “Earth starting FTL travel”. Thoughts on how it could be changed to be more viable?

It was too slow to get off the ground. I've always thought you and Harkback had this weird fetish for making people start with nothing, which discourages many people because they want to run their faction a certain way but end up being restricted by their limited resources. If you gave everyone a solid base, as in Major Corp level, and made Advancements either easier to come by or more efficient so as to give players more actions to play with, things would have progressed much faster. And then, of course, the whole thing with Dragos pretty much killed it IMO.

That ain't true. You always have some starting stuff... little things...
Well, almost nothing.

[Dragos Bee]

It was too slow to get off the ground. I've always thought you and Harkback had this weird fetish for making people start with nothing, which discourages many people because they want to run their faction a certain way but end up being restricted by their limited resources. If you gave everyone a solid base, as in Major Corp level, and made Advancements either easier to come by or more efficient so as to give players more actions to play with, things would have progressed much faster. And then, of course, the whole thing with Dragos pretty much killed it IMO.

That ain't true. You always have some starting stuff... little things...
Well, almost nothing.

And that is what one of my issues were.

[The Burning Sun]

It was too slow to get off the ground. I've always thought you and Harkback had this weird fetish for making people start with nothing, which discourages many people because they want to run their faction a certain way but end up being restricted by their limited resources. If you gave everyone a solid base, as in Major Corp level, and made Advancements either easier to come by or more efficient so as to give players more actions to play with, things would have progressed much faster. And then, of course, the whole thing with Dragos pretty much killed it IMO.

That ain't true. You always have some starting stuff... little things...
Well, almost nothing.

Yeah, well, you know what I mean. The point is not that there are too few choices within the entirety of the mechanics for a game, it is that most of those mechanics are too difficult to access within the typical lifespan of a game. I mean, remember TLC? We barely got halfway through the tech tree. War was almost impossible because of the scarcity of resources, and the one guy who did end up getting high tier techs also got nukes and rekt everyone.

[Harkback Union]

That ain't true. You always have some starting stuff... little things...
Well, almost nothing.

Yeah, well, you know what I mean. The point is not that there are too few choices within the entirety of the mechanics for a game, it is that most of those mechanics are too difficult to access within the typical lifespan of a game. I mean, remember TLC? We barely got halfway through the tech tree. War was almost impossible because of the scarcity of resources, and the one guy who did end up getting high tier techs also got nukes and rekt everyone.

I kind of screwed up the early game in both editions of TLC. Still, Still, I learned quite a lot from both.

[Dragos Bee]

G-Tech, let's mend fences.

[G-Tech Corporation]

G-Tech, let's mend fences.

Hm?

[Dragos Bee]

G-Tech, let's mend fences.

Hm?

Just wanted to apologize again.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Hm?

Just wanted to apologize again.

Hah, don’t worry about it. I frankly wasn’t ever offended by your concerns- more befuddled by some of your hostility.

[Indo-pasif archipelago]

I believe one of you have at least heard of the Illuminati Card Game. Do you think it's possible to apply the mechanic (with adaptation, obviously) into a role-play?

I would like to explain it more, but the mechanic is quite complicated and I am not sure the admins would allow me post the link to the rulebook.

I'll write more about the mechanic once I could write it down in a systematic way.

[G-Tech Corporation]

I believe one of you have at least heard of the Illuminati Card Game. Do you think it's possible to apply the mechanic (with adaptation, obviously) into a role-play?

I would like to explain it more, but the mechanic is quite complicated and I am not sure the admins would allow me post the link to the rulebook.

I'll write more about the mechanic once I could write it down in a systematic way.

Can’t say I’m familiar with it- how would you explain it to a layman?

[Indo-pasif archipelago]

I believe one of you have at least heard of the Illuminati Card Game. Do you think it's possible to apply the mechanic (with adaptation, obviously) into a role-play?

I would like to explain it more, but the mechanic is quite complicated and I am not sure the admins would allow me post the link to the rulebook.

I'll write more about the mechanic once I could write it down in a systematic way.

Can’t say I’m familiar with it- how would you explain it to a layman?

The rulebook is actually easy to understand. Unfortunately I don't have the space nor time to explain it as detailed as the rulebook.

Basically, each player start with a single illuminati card. The Illuminati card determines their goal, their "special ability", and things like power and income. Each illuminati card can connect to any four group they take over. Victory is achieved either by taking over a certain amount of groups, destroying all their opposition, or achieving their goal. Player lose if their illuminati is destroyed.

The group cards have power value, income value, resistance value, attributes, and alignments. Power value is used to determine the result of any attempt to dominate another group, either to subdue or take them over. Group with zero power could not act, unless they have zero value from start (ie. group that lose all their power could not act, but if they start with no power at all they could still act even without any power). This power can be used to aid other allied groups.

Resistance value determines the ability to resist attempts of take over. Groups with higher resistance is harder to take control of, but easier to defend.

Income determines the amount of wealth the group accumulates each turn. This wealth in turn can be used to aid attacks or defends.

Attributes determine, well, attributes of a group. This specify which Plot could affect the group.

Alignments affect the outcome of an attacks. out of ten alignment, some are the opposite of each other. It is easier to take over group of the same alignment, and it is easier to destroy group of opposite alignment.

Each group can connect to one to three other groups. Controlled group must be connected in some way to your illuminati.

Each turn a group could do one action, either attacking other group, aiding other group that is attacking/attacked, or using special ability for the group that have them.

Attacking to destroy a group is determined by rolling a pair of dice. The targeted group is destroyed by getting a role lower than power of attacking group minus the power of defending group. Any group, including your own, can be destroyed.

Attacking to control requires the attacking group to have at least one free connection. The targeted group is controlled by getting a role lower than power of attacking group minus the resistance of defending group. Illuminati card cannot be targeted for control.

Within the turn, player may also attempt to control a resource card. Resource card represents tools, magical artifact, science defying devices, etc. They are not connected to your power structure, and possesses effect that could aid your goal. They cannot be attacked.

Player can sacrifice an action to gain a Plot card. Plot card can be used anytime (or when certain requirements are met). When played, they can deal various effect.

I think that is everything, as simple as possible. At the moment I have no time yet to OP this, but I like to share the idea with you guys.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Can’t say I’m familiar with it- how would you explain it to a layman?

The rulebook is actually easy to understand. Unfortunately I don't have the space nor time to explain it as detailed as the rulebook.

Basically, each player start with a single illuminati card. The Illuminati card determines their goal, their "special ability", and things like power and income. Each illuminati card can connect to any four group they take over. Victory is achieved either by taking over a certain amount of groups, destroying all their opposition, or achieving their goal. Player lose if their illuminati is destroyed.

The group cards have power value, income value, resistance value, attributes, and alignments. Power value is used to determine the result of any attempt to dominate another group, either to subdue or take them over. Group with zero power could not act, unless they have zero value from start (ie. group that lose all their power could not act, but if they start with no power at all they could still act even without any power). This power can be used to aid other allied groups.

Resistance value determines the ability to resist attempts of take over. Groups with higher resistance is harder to take control of, but easier to defend.

Income determines the amount of wealth the group accumulates each turn. This wealth in turn can be used to aid attacks or defends.

Attributes determine, well, attributes of a group. This specify which Plot could affect the group.

Alignments affect the outcome of an attacks. out of ten alignment, some are the opposite of each other. It is easier to take over group of the same alignment, and it is easier to destroy group of opposite alignment.

Each group can connect to one to three other groups. Controlled group must be connected in some way to your illuminati.

Each turn a group could do one action, either attacking other group, aiding other group that is attacking/attacked, or using special ability for the group that have them.

Attacking to destroy a group is determined by rolling a pair of dice. The targeted group is destroyed by getting a role lower than power of attacking group minus the power of defending group. Any group, including your own, can be destroyed.

Attacking to control requires the attacking group to have at least one free connection. The targeted group is controlled by getting a role lower than power of attacking group minus the resistance of defending group. Illuminati card cannot be targeted for control.

Within the turn, player may also attempt to control a resource card. Resource card represents tools, magical artifact, science defying devices, etc. They are not connected to your power structure, and possesses effect that could aid your goal. They cannot be attacked.

Player can sacrifice an action to gain a Plot card. Plot card can be used anytime (or when certain requirements are met). When played, they can deal various effect.

I think that is everything, as simple as possible. At the moment I have no time yet to OP this, but I like to share the idea with you guys.

Ooh. Sounds hella cool. Lots of secret actions though, I assume, which are a bitch to work with on NS.

[Indo-pasif archipelago]

The rulebook is actually easy to understand. Unfortunately I don't have the space nor time to explain it as detailed as the rulebook.

Basically, each player start with a single illuminati card. The Illuminati card determines their goal, their "special ability", and things like power and income. Each illuminati card can connect to any four group they take over. Victory is achieved either by taking over a certain amount of groups, destroying all their opposition, or achieving their goal. Player lose if their illuminati is destroyed.

The group cards have power value, income value, resistance value, attributes, and alignments. Power value is used to determine the result of any attempt to dominate another group, either to subdue or take them over. Group with zero power could not act, unless they have zero value from start (ie. group that lose all their power could not act, but if they start with no power at all they could still act even without any power). This power can be used to aid other allied groups.

Resistance value determines the ability to resist attempts of take over. Groups with higher resistance is harder to take control of, but easier to defend.

Income determines the amount of wealth the group accumulates each turn. This wealth in turn can be used to aid attacks or defends.

Attributes determine, well, attributes of a group. This specify which Plot could affect the group.

Alignments affect the outcome of an attacks. out of ten alignment, some are the opposite of each other. It is easier to take over group of the same alignment, and it is easier to destroy group of opposite alignment.

Each group can connect to one to three other groups. Controlled group must be connected in some way to your illuminati.

Each turn a group could do one action, either attacking other group, aiding other group that is attacking/attacked, or using special ability for the group that have them.

Attacking to destroy a group is determined by rolling a pair of dice. The targeted group is destroyed by getting a role lower than power of attacking group minus the power of defending group. Any group, including your own, can be destroyed.

Attacking to control requires the attacking group to have at least one free connection. The targeted group is controlled by getting a role lower than power of attacking group minus the resistance of defending group. Illuminati card cannot be targeted for control.

Within the turn, player may also attempt to control a resource card. Resource card represents tools, magical artifact, science defying devices, etc. They are not connected to your power structure, and possesses effect that could aid your goal. They cannot be attacked.

Player can sacrifice an action to gain a Plot card. Plot card can be used anytime (or when certain requirements are met). When played, they can deal various effect.

I think that is everything, as simple as possible. At the moment I have no time yet to OP this, but I like to share the idea with you guys.

Ooh. Sounds hella cool. Lots of secret actions though, I assume, which are a bitch to work with on NS.

Not necessarily, in the actual game the only thing kept secret in the actual game IIRC is which plot card do you have. The other 'secret actions' only happen if two or more player decide to conspire behind their enemies back.

What I think would be difficult to apply/work with in NS would be the power structures and the group cards themselves.

Is it better if I make a lot of group at start and make more as the game progress, or should I just make a random generator for the stats (power value, resistance value, alignment, etc.) And use it everytime I need more groups?

Should the player be able to choose their own goal and special ability, or should I be the one that make it for them base on their app?

I think the biggest problem I have now is the time needed to OP this properly.

[Dragos Bee]

And my situation on NS got sour again.

[Dragos Bee]

And it seems that because of my lack of self-control, I have ruined my reputation with a lot of people. Guess I should leave NS yet again.

[Dragos Bee]

On second thought, no; that'd be cowardice to leave NS, at least permanently. I'll be back once the metaphorical storm fades.

[The Burning Sun]

On second thought, no; that'd be cowardice to leave NS, at least permanently. I'll be back once the metaphorical storm fades.

Oi mate what are you talking about. Nobody hates you or anything, chill. There's no need to get all worked up over, when you think about it, what was really just a minor understanding. Just keep doing what you do and I'm sure you'll find that everything is fine.

[Dragos Bee]

On second thought, no; that'd be cowardice to leave NS, at least permanently. I'll be back once the metaphorical storm fades.

Oi mate what are you talking about. Nobody hates you or anything, chill. There's no need to get all worked up over, when you think about it, what was really just a minor understanding. Just keep doing what you do and I'm sure you'll find that everything is fine.

I got banned from a Shadowrun Freeform RP and lost a friend. How is that fine?

[G-Tech Corporation]

Oi mate what are you talking about. Nobody hates you or anything, chill. There's no need to get all worked up over, when you think about it, what was really just a minor understanding. Just keep doing what you do and I'm sure you'll find that everything is fine.

I got banned from a Shadowrun Freeform RP and lost a friend. How is that fine?

Well Discords, and especially RPing romantic relationships... both are usually hazardous. People are more willing to say stupid things off-site, and obviously you can see the danger inherent in romantic RPing.

Still, one RP is hardly the end of the world. There are fifty more active than that Shadowrun offering. And I would hardly say you have lost a friend- people get mad at each other all the time because as humans we are bad at relating to others. Momentary disgruntlement is hardly a relationship severed.

Hell, Burning doesn’t exactly like me because we differ on RP design pathos (and I regularly thrash him ) but I’m still only too happy to drop RP ideas and invites here.

[The Burning Sun]

I got banned from a Shadowrun Freeform RP and lost a friend. How is that fine?

Well Discords, and especially RPing romantic relationships... both are usually hazardous. People are more willing to say stupid things off-site, and obviously you can see the danger inherent in romantic RPing.

Still, one RP is hardly the end of the world. There are fifty more active than that Shadowrun offering. And I would hardly say you have lost a friend- people get mad at each other all the time because as humans we are bad at relating to others. Momentary disgruntlement is hardly a relationship severed.

Hell, Burning doesn’t exactly like me because we differ on RP design pathos (and I regularly thrash him ) but I’m still only too happy to drop RP ideas and invites here.

I also have issues with your occasionally incomprehensible bookkeeping notation, but we're still chill.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Well Discords, and especially RPing romantic relationships... both are usually hazardous. People are more willing to say stupid things off-site, and obviously you can see the danger inherent in romantic RPing.

Still, one RP is hardly the end of the world. There are fifty more active than that Shadowrun offering. And I would hardly say you have lost a friend- people get mad at each other all the time because as humans we are bad at relating to others. Momentary disgruntlement is hardly a relationship severed.

Hell, Burning doesn’t exactly like me because we differ on RP design pathos (and I regularly thrash him ) but I’m still only too happy to drop RP ideas and invites here.

I also have issues with your occasionally incomprehensible bookkeeping notation, but we're still chill.

A secret held within code that not even the wise can divine is safest from metagaming