A Game of Thrones: Dynasty(OOC/Open)

[Independent States of Tula]

Only thing is that Lys, Myr, and Tyrosh joined to become the Three Daughters against Volantis again.

Also my post for the battle is up. If you guys want to Rp out your men pushing through, after a battle, the middle Bailey and Renly/Lancion arriving at the Inner courtyard to face Aerion and his men

This seems like a good way to start my question: "The crews of the hundred and ten ships vastsly outnumbers the Gold Cloaks . . ."

So wait--spontaneous army appearing from the ships? I mean, I consider "vastly" to be at least by five--those are the kind of numbers that would mean you wouldn't lose the coup. I mean, I don't Tywin would be daft enough to stage a coup if those kind of numbers just appear from the ships. Also, was the harbor chain just destroyed by a few axe blows? Please tell me I'm reading that incorrectly. Besides, how did Oberyn even arrive at the harbor before the boats were seized? We're playing a logistics thing again, but something tells me 500 Gold Cloaks can seize at least two-thirds of your ships if they're organized and have the element of surprise--because, you know, sailors aren't actual fighters.

EDIT: Also, was this discussed? I don't recall this being mentioned once before in OOC.

It wasn't discussed and so Givious just committed Major Godmoding. And not only do we have 500 GCs already at the Harbor but there's another freaking 500 GCs in reserve that could respond to any hostile sailors. There's no way twenty Knights and some sailors could overwhelm those numbers.

[Krugmar]

This seems like a good way to start my question: "The crews of the hundred and ten ships vastsly outnumbers the Gold Cloaks . . ."

So wait--spontaneous army appearing from the ships? I mean, I consider "vastly" to be at least by five--those are the kind of numbers that would mean you wouldn't lose the coup. I mean, I don't Tywin would be daft enough to stage a coup if those kind of numbers just appear from the ships. Also, was the harbor chain just destroyed by a few axe blows? Please tell me I'm reading that incorrectly. Besides, how did Oberyn even arrive at the harbor before the boats were seized? We're playing a logistics thing again, but something tells me 500 Gold Cloaks can seize at least two-thirds of your ships if they're organized and have the element of surprise--because, you know, sailors aren't actual fighters.

EDIT: Also, was this discussed? I don't recall this being mentioned once before in OOC.

It wasn't discussed and so Givious just committed Major Godmoding. And not only do we have 500 GCs already at the Harbor but there's another freaking 500 GCs in reserve that could respond to any hostile sailors. There's no way twenty Knights and some sailors could overwhelm those numbers.

Where exactly are those GC's being kept in reserve? King's Landing is a huge place, with over 500,000 people in 300 AL, and it will take time for these reserve forces to hear about it, then move in.

[Givious]

This seems like a good way to start my question: "The crews of the hundred and ten ships vastsly outnumbers the Gold Cloaks . . ."

So wait--spontaneous army appearing from the ships? I mean, I consider "vastly" to be at least by five--those are the kind of numbers that would mean you wouldn't lose the coup. I mean, I don't Tywin would be daft enough to stage a coup if those kind of numbers just appear from the ships. Also, was the harbor chain just destroyed by a few axe blows? Please tell me I'm reading that incorrectly. Besides, how did Oberyn even arrive at the harbor before the boats were seized? We're playing a logistics thing again, but something tells me 500 Gold Cloaks can seize at least two-thirds of your ships if they're organized and have the element of surprise--because, you know, sailors aren't actual fighters.

EDIT: Also, was this discussed? I don't recall this being mentioned once before in OOC.

It wasn't discussed and so Givious just committed Major Godmoding. And not only do we have 500 GCs already at the Harbor but there's another freaking 500 GCs in reserve that could respond to any hostile sailors. There's no way twenty Knights and some sailors could overwhelm those numbers.

Godmode? Know what, fuck it. Post that you capture my entire family and all the martells in the keep and you capturing the entire city along with the fleet l. I'll just post with my one goddamn character that I have left, give him until day 10 before he is dead.

Sound good?

[Independent States of Tula]

It wasn't discussed and so Givious just committed Major Godmoding. And not only do we have 500 GCs already at the Harbor but there's another freaking 500 GCs in reserve that could respond to any hostile sailors. There's no way twenty Knights and some sailors could overwhelm those numbers.

Where exactly are those GC's being kept in reserve? King's Landing is a huge place, with over 500,000 people in 300 AL, and it will take time for these reserve forces to hear about it, then move in.

They are in Cobbler's square as Diliath posted. There's one other problem, even in today's warfare the ideal ratio you want when assaulting a defended location is 3:1. When ten, I repeat 10, men are able to cut though "scores" of GCs who see them coming and are prepared then you enter the realm of fantasy, it only gets worse when a single man with a few hacks of an axe (keep in mind he's apparently not at all tired by cutting down countless men but has the strength of at least three men to make quick work of a giant chain with a few whacks) let's the freaking sea chain be sent into the freaking blackwater. It's unrealistic, was never discussed with us, and most certainly never agreed on before you manipulated our forces. And yes Givious, that means you godmoded us.

[Novae Vitae]

This seems like a good way to start my question: "The crews of the hundred and ten ships vastsly outnumbers the Gold Cloaks . . ."

So wait--spontaneous army appearing from the ships? I mean, I consider "vastly" to be at least by five--those are the kind of numbers that would mean you wouldn't lose the coup. I mean, I don't Tywin would be daft enough to stage a coup if those kind of numbers just appear from the ships. Also, was the harbor chain just destroyed by a few axe blows? Please tell me I'm reading that incorrectly. Besides, how did Oberyn even arrive at the harbor before the boats were seized? We're playing a logistics thing again, but something tells me 500 Gold Cloaks can seize at least two-thirds of your ships if they're organized and have the element of surprise--because, you know, sailors aren't actual fighters.

EDIT: Also, was this discussed? I don't recall this being mentioned once before in OOC.

I did not think that you guys would be trying to capture the Royal fleet. There are a total of 110 shifts with a minimum crew of 100 each and that is just Roman not including what you would have set up for your Marines... I would say that they've vastly outnumbered the gold cloaks. Would they be effective in attacking capturing the city? I highly doubt it as is the reason why I had not brought them into my military numbers for the city. It was a surprise I have no doubt that 500 gold cloaks could overcome them, however if they did Riley and start fighting they would easily route the gold cloaks. and no he did not destroy the chain itself, he destroyed the winch in which it would be used to pull it up and down. I'm guessing since you're when she would be made of wood, and with enough blows could be destabilized enough to allow the chain to slip. If you really want to try and claim that you captured the entire Royal fleet in harbor with 500 men, I will have a few thousand "troops" to say differently.

1. I recall several times we stated our intention to take the Royal Fleet. I'll make sure to look for quotes to prove this. Failing that, I will concede the point. EDIT: I found a quote. Page 24, posted by Tula: ". . . and another 500 Goldcloaks would secure the harbor and keep any ships from leaving."

2. Roman? Marines? This is circa the Dark Ages--navies were somewhat of illusions, and I can only imagine the sailors of the Royal Fleet would be semi-professional at best. They've been left lax because the Greyjoys have not raided their shores, and would have no fighting skill to speak of compared to a Gold Cloak, which, as I understand it, have been made considerably efficient.

3. ". . . the reason why I had not brought them into my military numbers for the city." But you're using them in a blatant military action, without discussing and without giving time for a replying post to be made. Come now, in one post you've sailed away with 110 ships, overwhelmed an eighth of the Gold Cloaks, destroyed the harbor chain, and lead to the escape of several characters. Am I supposed to believe that the single factor, the sailors, that led to this were not noteworthy in your military figures? Considering they're arguably the largest unified force in the entire city, I question your premise.

4 "It was a surprise I have no doubt that 500 gold cloaks could overcome them, however if they did Riley and start fighting they would easily route the gold cloaks." How could they possibly rally? The Gold Cloaks have the element of surprise, are ready for combat, and could simply make a division from the center while moving in two groups, thereby cutting off the sailors from one another. I would also point out that the Gold Cloaks, presumably in two groups, could take about twenty to thirty ships before the sailors even knew what was happening. That means, of course, those sailors are no longer participating in what I shall frankly call the Magic Sailor Army.

5. I wish to make sure I understand. A winch, which would have been considerably larger than any man and would have been strong enough to hoist a massive iron chain across Blackwater Bay . . . was destroyed in a few strikes? Forgive me if I say I find this improbable. And that wood, I should note, would be incredibly thick. I propose to you the following: destabilize a tree five feet in diameter with ten blows, and I will concede that you can destabilize the winch in like fashion.

6. "If you really want to try and claim that you captured the entire Royal fleet in harbor with 500 men, I will have a few thousand 'troops' to say differently." A few thousand troops from where? The ships? Where have these troops been in all the lengthy discussions about this coup? Have you pulled them from the air? I shall repeat with as much genuine disbelief as I can muster: these men are part of your Magic Sailor Army. And further, I do content that an organized group of five hundred men, arguably the best trained fighting force in King's Landing, can overwhelm a confused conglomerate of loosely united, relatively untrained men.

It wasn't discussed and so Givious just committed Major Godmoding. And not only do we have 500 GCs already at the Harbor but there's another freaking 500 GCs in reserve that could respond to any hostile sailors. There's no way twenty Knights and some sailors could overwhelm those numbers.

Godmode? Know what, fuck it. Post that you capture my entire family and all the martells in the keep and you capturing the entire city along with the fleet l. I'll just post with my one goddamn character that I have left, give him until day 10 before he is dead.

Sound good?

At the risk of playing with fire, no one is attacking you. We're just stating facts based on observations and questionings. As we've both established with each other, this isn't personal.

[Independent States of Tula]

It wasn't discussed and so Givious just committed Major Godmoding. And not only do we have 500 GCs already at the Harbor but there's another freaking 500 GCs in reserve that could respond to any hostile sailors. There's no way twenty Knights and some sailors could overwhelm those numbers.

Godmode? Know what, fuck it. Post that you capture my entire family and all the martells in the keep and you capturing the entire city along with the fleet l. I'll just post with my one goddamn character that I have left, give him until day 10 before he is dead.

Sound good?

There's no attack on you, I'm just pointing out a few issues with your post. You need to give us the chance to respond and you need to discuss this stuff with us. We're willing to negotiate about it but you need to stop pulling stuff like this.

[Krugmar]

Godmode? Know what, fuck it. Post that you capture my entire family and all the martells in the keep and you capturing the entire city along with the fleet l. I'll just post with my one goddamn character that I have left, give him until day 10 before he is dead.

Sound good?

There's no attack on you, I'm just pointing out a few issues with your post. You need to give us the chance to respond and you need to discuss this stuff with us. We're willing to negotiate about it but you need to stop pulling stuff like this.

The problem is that this coup is absolutely frustrating, while I appreciate the uniqueness and potential from it, it is completely unfair and is pushing us into corners. Let us look what you are gaining, and what we are gaining in this compromise.

Confederate gains:
- Control of the Iron Throne
- Control over the fate of Aerion, Oberos and Lady Maira

Loyalist gains:
- The Royal Fleet
- The safety of the 'other' members of the Royal family, and some of the Martells including Oberyn.

There is a massive difference, and I think that it was rather good of Givious to concede the city to you. He could have pushed the point of the citizens rallying, Lords of the Crownlands rallying and any other potentials that might have been thought up. To then want to make sure that you control essentially all of Givious' characters, and one side of the Martell family is rather annoying.

[Givious]

Godmode? Know what, fuck it. Post that you capture my entire family and all the martells in the keep and you capturing the entire city along with the fleet l. I'll just post with my one goddamn character that I have left, give him until day 10 before he is dead.

Sound good?

There's no attack on you, I'm just pointing out a few issues with your post. You need to give us the chance to respond and you need to discuss this stuff with us. We're willing to negotiate about it but you need to stop pulling stuff like this.

I am conceding my largest city in the center of my power to you, I will barely be able to call a few thousand men from my forces do the food shortages... Not enough to recapture the city and Tim will not enough to fight off your armies when they show up. Without the Navy my people can't escape and you capture pretty much my entire family save one character and I lose everything except for maybe let's say 7000 men and a dragon...

I'm not going to negotiate or talk about anything as I have already bowed down my entire house your coup. If you really want this over this quickly, I'll change my post when I get home.

Now, in headed to work. Change my post later.

[Elepis]

I have finished my app. Are there any improvements I could make?

Only thing is that Lys, Myr, and Tyrosh joined to become the Three Daughters against Volantis again.

Also my post for the battle is up. If you guys want to Rp out your men pushing through, after a battle, the middle Bailey and Renly/Lancion arriving at the Inner courtyard to face Aerion and his men

ah yes, i forgot about that, I will change it

[Independent States of Tula]

There's no attack on you, I'm just pointing out a few issues with your post. You need to give us the chance to respond and you need to discuss this stuff with us. We're willing to negotiate about it but you need to stop pulling stuff like this.

The problem is that this coup is absolutely frustrating, while I appreciate the uniqueness and potential from it, it is completely unfair and is pushing us into corners. Let us look what you are gaining, and what we are gaining in this compromise.

Confederate gains:
- Control of the Iron Throne
- Control over the fate of Aerion, Oberos and Lady Maira

Loyalist gains:
- The Royal Fleet
- The safety of the 'other' members of the Royal family, and some of the Martells including Oberyn.

There is a massive difference, and I think that it was rather good of Givious to concede the city to you. He could have pushed the point of the citizens rallying, Lords of the Crownlands rallying and any other potentials that might have been thought up. To then want to make sure that you control essentially all of Givious' characters, and one side of the Martell family is rather annoying.

Hey, we'll negotiate but you guys have to be reasonable for the situation and you can't godmode us like that. You guys aren't being realistic in his post, it's improbable at best and impossible for something like that to happen at worst, not to mention you never talked to us about this thing in the first place. Daeron has a dragon, an army, and Dorne behind him, he's not out and Givious can be free to RP any captured characters he wants as much as he wants. I'd speak more on this but I'm going to wait for Nux's input as I've contacted him about the situation.

[Krugmar]

-snip

Hey, we'll negotiate but you guys have to be reasonable for the situation and you can't godmode us like that. You guys aren't being realistic in his post, it's improbable at best and impossible for something like that to happen at worst, not to mention you never talked to us about this thing in the first place. Daeron has a dragon, an army, and Dorne behind him, he's not out and Givious can be free to RP any captured characters he wants as much as he wants. I'd speak more on this but I'm going to wait for Nux's input as I've contacted him about the situation.

I think we are being more than reasonable in allowing you the city, and giving you the Lord Regent. Daeron has a dragon, true, but not an army to match that of the Confederates, and Dorne isn't very good at invasions, only defence. Roleplaying a few captured characters is always fine, but when you have all except one of your characters under house arrest, there isn't much you can do. I understand that the escape was technically godmoding, but whatever we do during this coup other than lie down and wait to be killed seems to be godmoding, so you can understand our frustration. Personally I see little to negotiate about, since what has been given far outweighs what has been returned in this 'compromise'. Take away what Givious has posted and the scales will collapse under the strain from what has been given.

-snip-

1. I recall several times we stated our intention to take the Royal Fleet. I'll make sure to look for quotes to prove this. Failing that, I will concede the point. EDIT: I found a quote. Page 24, posted by Tula: ". . . and another 500 Goldcloaks would secure the harbor and keep any ships from leaving."

2. Roman? Marines? This is circa the Dark Ages--navies were somewhat of illusions, and I can only imagine the sailors of the Royal Fleet would be semi-professional at best. They've been left lax because the Greyjoys have not raided their shores, and would have no fighting skill to speak of compared to a Gold Cloak, which, as I understand it, have been made considerably efficient.

3. ". . . the reason why I had not brought them into my military numbers for the city." But you're using them in a blatant military action, without discussing and without giving time for a replying post to be made. Come now, in one post you've sailed away with 110 ships, overwhelmed an eighth of the Gold Cloaks, destroyed the harbor chain, and lead to the escape of several characters. Am I supposed to believe that the single factor, the sailors, that led to this were not noteworthy in your military figures? Considering they're arguably the largest unified force in the entire city, I question your premise.

4 "It was a surprise I have no doubt that 500 gold cloaks could overcome them, however if they did Riley and start fighting they would easily route the gold cloaks." How could they possibly rally? The Gold Cloaks have the element of surprise, are ready for combat, and could simply make a division from the center while moving in two groups, thereby cutting off the sailors from one another. I would also point out that the Gold Cloaks, presumably in two groups, could take about twenty to thirty ships before the sailors even knew what was happening. That means, of course, those sailors are no longer participating in what I shall frankly call the Magic Sailor Army.

5. I wish to make sure I understand. A winch, which would have been considerably larger than any man and would have been strong enough to hoist a massive iron chain across Blackwater Bay . . . was destroyed in a few strikes? Forgive me if I say I find this improbable. And that wood, I should note, would be incredibly thick. I propose to you the following: destabilize a tree five feet in diameter with ten blows, and I will concede that you can destabilize the winch in like fashion.

6. "If you really want to try and claim that you captured the entire Royal fleet in harbor with 500 men, I will have a few thousand 'troops' to say differently." A few thousand troops from where? The ships? Where have these troops been in all the lengthy discussions about this coup? Have you pulled them from the air? I shall repeat with as much genuine disbelief as I can muster: these men are part of your Magic Sailor Army. And further, I do content that an organized group of five hundred men, arguably the best trained fighting force in King's Landing, can overwhelm a confused conglomerate of loosely united, relatively untrained men.

1. A moot point, since the post acknowledges that the 500 gold cloaks were present at the harbour.

2. If I recall correctly, ASOIAF is based upon 15th century Europe, not around 6th century BC Europe. Furthermore navies in ASOIAF seem more professional than those in Europe, being 16th-17th century in tactics and numbers, though obviously lacking the cannons. While I agree that sailors wouldn't be very good against gold cloaks, there are approx. 9500 of them (about 86 per ship), and only 500 gold cloaks (not counting the ones in cobblers square, who realistically wouldn't be able to make it to the Waterfront in time).

3. The sailors are not a military force, they are citizens who have been randomly detained without warning and only wish to escape on their ships. They see their chance when the Targaryen and Martell forces arrive. I'm sorry that we overwhelmed an eight of the Gold Cloaks, but In return you have overwhelmed all of the Black Cloaks, taken the Red Keep, captured/killed Aerion and Oberos and managed to subdue a city of 500,000, while keeping your soldiers from looting, burning and destroying.

4. The Gold Cloaks have the element of surprise? They should be guarding their prisoners, not lying in ambush for the Royal family to appear. Furthermore, split up 500 Gold Cloaks around 9500 sailors and you realise that you will have 1 Gold Cloak to every 19 sailors, hardly an easy victory even for a trained force.

5. The point was more to symbolise Tristane's sacrifice for the royal family, show a bit of heroism during the coup. Of course in the real world it likely wouldn't be possible, but this is the same world as Gregor Clegane, who was strong enough to crush a mans skull and cleave off his horses head with a single blow, the same world as dragons and the Others.

6. The troops are the ones that we have generously decided not to use, the citizens of King's Landing. It has been shown in the book that they are not above rioting when angry, such as when Joffrey angered the crowd and caused a large riot in King's Landing. Now, it has around 500,000 people as a base, if only around 10% of the city supported the Targaryens enough to fight, then you would have 50,000 people to deal with and only 4000 Gold Cloaks initially to deal with them. I'm still amazed at how the Gold Cloaks were so quickly turned into an extremely close-knit, noble and well trained force, but this has been conceded to you before, along with many other things.

I apologise if any of this comes across as a personal attack, but honestly this coup in my opinion has been flimsy, awkward and an awful 'compromise'.

EDIT: After a discussion with Givious, he has told me that he is sticking to his new plan to change the post. Edit: Acutally, have the characters, I have plenty more

[Novae Vitae]

Hey, we'll negotiate but you guys have to be reasonable for the situation and you can't godmode us like that. You guys aren't being realistic in his post, it's improbable at best and impossible for something like that to happen at worst, not to mention you never talked to us about this thing in the first place. Daeron has a dragon, an army, and Dorne behind him, he's not out and Givious can be free to RP any captured characters he wants as much as he wants. I'd speak more on this but I'm going to wait for Nux's input as I've contacted him about the situation.

I think we are being more than reasonable in allowing you the city, and giving you the Lord Regent. Daeron has a dragon, true, but not an army to match that of the Confederates, and Dorne isn't very good at invasions, only defence. Roleplaying a few captured characters is always fine, but when you have all except one of your characters under house arrest, there isn't much you can do. I understand that the escape was technically godmoding, but whatever we do during this coup other than lie down and wait to be killed seems to be godmoding, so you can understand our frustration. Personally I see little to negotiate about, since what has been given far outweighs what has been returned in this 'compromise'. Take away what Givious has posted and the scales will collapse under the strain from what has been given.

1. I recall several times we stated our intention to take the Royal Fleet. I'll make sure to look for quotes to prove this. Failing that, I will concede the point. EDIT: I found a quote. Page 24, posted by Tula: ". . . and another 500 Goldcloaks would secure the harbor and keep any ships from leaving."

2. Roman? Marines? This is circa the Dark Ages--navies were somewhat of illusions, and I can only imagine the sailors of the Royal Fleet would be semi-professional at best. They've been left lax because the Greyjoys have not raided their shores, and would have no fighting skill to speak of compared to a Gold Cloak, which, as I understand it, have been made considerably efficient.

3. ". . . the reason why I had not brought them into my military numbers for the city." But you're using them in a blatant military action, without discussing and without giving time for a replying post to be made. Come now, in one post you've sailed away with 110 ships, overwhelmed an eighth of the Gold Cloaks, destroyed the harbor chain, and lead to the escape of several characters. Am I supposed to believe that the single factor, the sailors, that led to this were not noteworthy in your military figures? Considering they're arguably the largest unified force in the entire city, I question your premise.

4 "It was a surprise I have no doubt that 500 gold cloaks could overcome them, however if they did Riley and start fighting they would easily route the gold cloaks." How could they possibly rally? The Gold Cloaks have the element of surprise, are ready for combat, and could simply make a division from the center while moving in two groups, thereby cutting off the sailors from one another. I would also point out that the Gold Cloaks, presumably in two groups, could take about twenty to thirty ships before the sailors even knew what was happening. That means, of course, those sailors are no longer participating in what I shall frankly call the Magic Sailor Army.

5. I wish to make sure I understand. A winch, which would have been considerably larger than any man and would have been strong enough to hoist a massive iron chain across Blackwater Bay . . . was destroyed in a few strikes? Forgive me if I say I find this improbable. And that wood, I should note, would be incredibly thick. I propose to you the following: destabilize a tree five feet in diameter with ten blows, and I will concede that you can destabilize the winch in like fashion.

6. "If you really want to try and claim that you captured the entire Royal fleet in harbor with 500 men, I will have a few thousand 'troops' to say differently." A few thousand troops from where? The ships? Where have these troops been in all the lengthy discussions about this coup? Have you pulled them from the air? I shall repeat with as much genuine disbelief as I can muster: these men are part of your Magic Sailor Army. And further, I do content that an organized group of five hundred men, arguably the best trained fighting force in King's Landing, can overwhelm a confused conglomerate of loosely united, relatively untrained men.

1. A moot point, since the post acknowledges that the 500 gold cloaks were present at the harbour.

2. If I recall correctly, ASOIAF is based upon 15th century Europe, not around 6th century BC Europe. Furthermore navies in ASOIAF seem more professional than those in Europe, being 16th-17th century in tactics and numbers, though obviously lacking the cannons. While I agree that sailors wouldn't be very good against gold cloaks, there are approx. 9500 of them (about 86 per ship), and only 500 gold cloaks (not counting the ones in cobblers square, who realistically wouldn't be able to make it to the Waterfront in time).

3. The sailors are not a military force, they are citizens who have been randomly detained without warning and only wish to escape on their ships. They see their chance when the Targaryen and Martell forces arrive. I'm sorry that we overwhelmed an eight of the Gold Cloaks, but In return you have overwhelmed all of the Black Cloaks, taken the Red Keep, captured/killed Aerion and Oberos and managed to subdue a city of 500,000, while keeping your soldiers from looting, burning and destroying.

4. The Gold Cloaks have the element of surprise? They should be guarding their prisoners, not lying in ambush for the Royal family to appear. Furthermore, split up 500 Gold Cloaks around 9500 sailors and you realise that you will have 1 Gold Cloak to every 19 sailors, hardly an easy victory even for a trained force.

5. The point was more to symbolise Tristane's sacrifice for the royal family, show a bit of heroism during the coup. Of course in the real world it likely wouldn't be possible, but this is the same world as Gregor Clegane, who was strong enough to crush a mans skull and cleave off his horses head with a single blow, the same world as dragons and the Others.

6. The troops are the ones that we have generously decided not to use, the citizens of King's Landing. It has been shown in the book that they are not above rioting when angry, such as when Joffrey angered the crowd and caused a large riot in King's Landing. Now, it has around 500,000 people as a base, if only around 10% of the city supported the Targaryens enough to fight, then you would have 50,000 people to deal with and only 4000 Gold Cloaks initially to deal with them. I'm still amazed at how the Gold Cloaks were so quickly turned into an extremely close-knit, noble and well trained force, but this has been conceded to you before, along with many other things.

I apologise if any of this comes across as a personal attack, but honestly this coup in my opinion has been flimsy, awkward and an awful 'compromise'.

1. Givious claimed he wasn't aware we were attacking the harbor, so I was required to provide evidence of it.

2. Very well, let us presume there are 9,500 men defending the ships. Should they not have been mentioned? As a unified, relatively prepared force the Gold Cloaks could very well lose to that fighting force. Is it not a crucial note to point out in Givious's military statistics that these men exist? I would not be disputing this had the numbers been listed, but I shall restate how these sailors appear to me: magical. This was thoroughly discussed, and I recall no place OOC in which these men--the single-largest fighting group in the city--failed to be mentioned.

3a. By stating that the sailors are not a military force, you implicate that the Royal Fleet is not a unit attached to military actions. I believe you are far too intelligent to assert a navy is not a military force. Their chance, further, does not come when the Targo-Martell soldiers arrive--instead, their supposed chance arrives when Givious has all 500 Gold Cloaks round (as if on command) to regard these advancing . . . twenty knights? I think this is a prime example of how warfare does not work.

3b. I do not ask you apologize for overwhelming any character realistically. If I marched 50,000 men into the Reach, and they were defeat by an army of 80,000 men in a crushing defeat in which only half escaped, then I would request no apology. It is disingenuous to suggest that I require redress for being overwhelmed, as happens always in warfare. We have overwhelmed the Black Cloaks, the Red Keep, and the Royal Household because it is what would happen. I cannot offer apology to realism.

4. Of course they have the element of surprise. They're marching towards the royal harbor, fully armed, fully armored, as a unified fighting force with the express intent of seizing the Royal Fleet. By contrast, most of the sailors are either just awaking or being attacked while still sleeping on the boats. I seriously fail to understand how the Gold Cloaks would not have the element of surprise. And again, I question how 9,500 men have magically appeared. I will make this point: had it at any point been stated there was a conglomerate of 9,500 loyalists in the city, Tywin would have never thrown his weight to Renly. While I cannot speak for the others, I think the entire military action would be ridiculous.

5. Yes, well, Ser Trystane is not Gregor Clegane, an Other, nor a dragon. Well his efforts are touching and heroic, they are simply too improbable, and too massively devastating to the defense of King's Landing, to be thought of as realistic. I would further contend that even Gregor Clegane could have accomplished such a feat, and he was four hundred pounds of muscle, as I recall.

6. The citizens are King's Landing have never been troops for lords--they have, as I recall, only risen in their own interest. They did rebel against Rhaenyra and Joffrey, but they did not fight for Aegon in the Dance of the Dragons, nor during Robert's Rebellion, nor during the War of Five King's for Stannis (in any serious number), nor the Re-Conquest by Daenerys. To claim that 50,000 men with rise in defense of the dragonlords is ridiculous. As has ever been shown with the proletariat, they fight for themselves, not for lords. No serious number attacked Henry VI in the streets of London in support of Edward IV, nor did London (to my limited knowledge of the House de Normandie) assail William I the Conqueror in support of a member of the House of Godwin.

Also, I feel in no way attacked by this, and truly hope that you feel the same way.

[Krugmar]

I think we are being more than reasonable in allowing you the city, and giving you the Lord Regent. Daeron has a dragon, true, but not an army to match that of the Confederates, and Dorne isn't very good at invasions, only defence. Roleplaying a few captured characters is always fine, but when you have all except one of your characters under house arrest, there isn't much you can do. I understand that the escape was technically godmoding, but whatever we do during this coup other than lie down and wait to be killed seems to be godmoding, so you can understand our frustration. Personally I see little to negotiate about, since what has been given far outweighs what has been returned in this 'compromise'. Take away what Givious has posted and the scales will collapse under the strain from what has been given.

1. A moot point, since the post acknowledges that the 500 gold cloaks were present at the harbour.

2. If I recall correctly, ASOIAF is based upon 15th century Europe, not around 6th century BC Europe. Furthermore navies in ASOIAF seem more professional than those in Europe, being 16th-17th century in tactics and numbers, though obviously lacking the cannons. While I agree that sailors wouldn't be very good against gold cloaks, there are approx. 9500 of them (about 86 per ship), and only 500 gold cloaks (not counting the ones in cobblers square, who realistically wouldn't be able to make it to the Waterfront in time).

3. The sailors are not a military force, they are citizens who have been randomly detained without warning and only wish to escape on their ships. They see their chance when the Targaryen and Martell forces arrive. I'm sorry that we overwhelmed an eight of the Gold Cloaks, but In return you have overwhelmed all of the Black Cloaks, taken the Red Keep, captured/killed Aerion and Oberos and managed to subdue a city of 500,000, while keeping your soldiers from looting, burning and destroying.

4. The Gold Cloaks have the element of surprise? They should be guarding their prisoners, not lying in ambush for the Royal family to appear. Furthermore, split up 500 Gold Cloaks around 9500 sailors and you realise that you will have 1 Gold Cloak to every 19 sailors, hardly an easy victory even for a trained force.

5. The point was more to symbolise Tristane's sacrifice for the royal family, show a bit of heroism during the coup. Of course in the real world it likely wouldn't be possible, but this is the same world as Gregor Clegane, who was strong enough to crush a mans skull and cleave off his horses head with a single blow, the same world as dragons and the Others.

6. The troops are the ones that we have generously decided not to use, the citizens of King's Landing. It has been shown in the book that they are not above rioting when angry, such as when Joffrey angered the crowd and caused a large riot in King's Landing. Now, it has around 500,000 people as a base, if only around 10% of the city supported the Targaryens enough to fight, then you would have 50,000 people to deal with and only 4000 Gold Cloaks initially to deal with them. I'm still amazed at how the Gold Cloaks were so quickly turned into an extremely close-knit, noble and well trained force, but this has been conceded to you before, along with many other things.

I apologise if any of this comes across as a personal attack, but honestly this coup in my opinion has been flimsy, awkward and an awful 'compromise'.

1. Givious claimed he wasn't aware we were attacking the harbor, so I was required to provide evidence of it.

2. Very well, let us presume there are 9,500 men defending the ships. Should they not have been mentioned? As a unified, relatively prepared force the Gold Cloaks could very well lose to that fighting force. Is it not a crucial note to point out in Givious's military statistics that these men exist? I would not be disputing this had the numbers been listed, but I shall restate how these sailors appear to me: magical. This was thoroughly discussed, and I recall no place OOC in which these men--the single-largest fighting group in the city--failed to be mentioned.

3a. By stating that the sailors are not a military force, you implicate that the Royal Fleet is not a unit attached to military actions. I believe you are far too intelligent to assert a navy is not a military force. Their chance, further, does not come when the Targo-Martell soldiers arrive--instead, their supposed chance arrives when Givious has all 500 Gold Cloaks round (as if on command) to regard these advancing . . . twenty knights? I think this is a prime example of how warfare does not work.

3b. I do not ask you apologize for overwhelming any character realistically. If I marched 50,000 men into the Reach, and they were defeat by an army of 80,000 men in a crushing defeat in which only half escaped, then I would request no apology. It is disingenuous to suggest that I require redress for being overwhelmed, as happens always in warfare. We have overwhelmed the Black Cloaks, the Red Keep, and the Royal Household because it is what would happen. I cannot offer apology to realism.

4. Of course they have the element of surprise. They're marching towards the royal harbor, fully armed, fully armored, as a unified fighting force with the express intent of seizing the Royal Fleet. By contrast, most of the sailors are either just awaking or being attacked while still sleeping on the boats. I seriously fail to understand how the Gold Cloaks would not have the element of surprise. And again, I question how 9,500 men have magically appeared. I will make this point: had it at any point been stated there was a conglomerate of 9,500 loyalists in the city, Tywin would have never thrown his weight to Renly. While I cannot speak for the others, I think the entire military action would be ridiculous.

5. Yes, well, Ser Trystane is not Gregor Clegane, an Other, nor a dragon. Well his efforts are touching and heroic, they are simply too improbable, and too massively devastating to the defense of King's Landing, to be thought of as realistic. I would further contend that even Gregor Clegane could have accomplished such a feat, and he was four hundred pounds of muscle, as I recall.

6. The citizens are King's Landing have never been troops for lords--they have, as I recall, only risen in their own interest. They did rebel against Rhaenyra and Joffrey, but they did not fight for Aegon in the Dance of the Dragons, nor during Robert's Rebellion, nor during the War of Five King's for Stannis (in any serious number), nor the Re-Conquest by Daenerys. To claim that 50,000 men with rise in defense of the dragonlords is ridiculous. As has ever been shown with the proletariat, they fight for themselves, not for lords. No serious number attacked Henry VI in the streets of London in support of Edward IV, nor did London (to my limited knowledge of the House de Normandie) assail William I the Conqueror in support of a member of the House of Godwin.

Also, I feel in no way attacked by this, and truly hope that you feel the same way.

I would continue arguing with this case, but it is a moot point now that Givious has told me his intent to change his post and remove the section detailing the attack on the harbour. While I don't agree with this decision, I will respect it and not argue against it.

I think it is good that we have established that neither of us are attacking each other, or anybody else, over this debate, and I feel the same way. I suppose all we do now is way for Nux, and the edited post.

[Novae Vitae]

1. Givious claimed he wasn't aware we were attacking the harbor, so I was required to provide evidence of it.

2. Very well, let us presume there are 9,500 men defending the ships. Should they not have been mentioned? As a unified, relatively prepared force the Gold Cloaks could very well lose to that fighting force. Is it not a crucial note to point out in Givious's military statistics that these men exist? I would not be disputing this had the numbers been listed, but I shall restate how these sailors appear to me: magical. This was thoroughly discussed, and I recall no place OOC in which these men--the single-largest fighting group in the city--failed to be mentioned.

3a. By stating that the sailors are not a military force, you implicate that the Royal Fleet is not a unit attached to military actions. I believe you are far too intelligent to assert a navy is not a military force. Their chance, further, does not come when the Targo-Martell soldiers arrive--instead, their supposed chance arrives when Givious has all 500 Gold Cloaks round (as if on command) to regard these advancing . . . twenty knights? I think this is a prime example of how warfare does not work.

3b. I do not ask you apologize for overwhelming any character realistically. If I marched 50,000 men into the Reach, and they were defeat by an army of 80,000 men in a crushing defeat in which only half escaped, then I would request no apology. It is disingenuous to suggest that I require redress for being overwhelmed, as happens always in warfare. We have overwhelmed the Black Cloaks, the Red Keep, and the Royal Household because it is what would happen. I cannot offer apology to realism.

4. Of course they have the element of surprise. They're marching towards the royal harbor, fully armed, fully armored, as a unified fighting force with the express intent of seizing the Royal Fleet. By contrast, most of the sailors are either just awaking or being attacked while still sleeping on the boats. I seriously fail to understand how the Gold Cloaks would not have the element of surprise. And again, I question how 9,500 men have magically appeared. I will make this point: had it at any point been stated there was a conglomerate of 9,500 loyalists in the city, Tywin would have never thrown his weight to Renly. While I cannot speak for the others, I think the entire military action would be ridiculous.

5. Yes, well, Ser Trystane is not Gregor Clegane, an Other, nor a dragon. Well his efforts are touching and heroic, they are simply too improbable, and too massively devastating to the defense of King's Landing, to be thought of as realistic. I would further contend that even Gregor Clegane could have accomplished such a feat, and he was four hundred pounds of muscle, as I recall.

6. The citizens are King's Landing have never been troops for lords--they have, as I recall, only risen in their own interest. They did rebel against Rhaenyra and Joffrey, but they did not fight for Aegon in the Dance of the Dragons, nor during Robert's Rebellion, nor during the War of Five King's for Stannis (in any serious number), nor the Re-Conquest by Daenerys. To claim that 50,000 men with rise in defense of the dragonlords is ridiculous. As has ever been shown with the proletariat, they fight for themselves, not for lords. No serious number attacked Henry VI in the streets of London in support of Edward IV, nor did London (to my limited knowledge of the House de Normandie) assail William I the Conqueror in support of a member of the House of Godwin.

Also, I feel in no way attacked by this, and truly hope that you feel the same way.

I would continue arguing with this case, but it is a moot point now that Givious has told me his intent to change his post and remove the section detailing the attack on the harbour. While I don't agree with this decision, I will respect it and not argue against it.

I think it is good that we have established that neither of us are attacking each other, or anybody else, over this debate, and I feel the same way. I suppose all we do now is way for Nux, and the edited post.

If that's the approach you would like to take, I can respect that. And I too think that this is a good thing--no matter what, we should all walk away with the understanding that none of this was personal.

[Givious]

I would continue arguing with this case, but it is a moot point now that Givious has told me his intent to change his post and remove the section detailing the attack on the harbour. While I don't agree with this decision, I will respect it and not argue against it.

I think it is good that we have established that neither of us are attacking each other, or anybody else, over this debate, and I feel the same way. I suppose all we do now is way for Nux, and the edited post.

If that's the approach you would like to take, I can respect that. And I too think that this is a good thing--no matter what, we should all walk away with the understanding that none of this was personal.

I'm taking none of this personally, just annoyed that once again my house is gutted one day into a ASOFAI Rp by a plot that was all powerful and started before the Rp, which does not allow me to combat it; as well a start that gives me the maneuverability of a fat kid running at a cement wall.

[Phalnia]

I might be late to the conversation, but aren't the sailors are implied by Givious noting that his house has a fleet? No one else mentioned their sailors when noting naval power.

[Novae Vitae]

I might be late to the conversation, but aren't the sailors are implied by Givious noting that his house has a fleet? No one else mentioned their sailors when noting naval power.

The implication of a fleet is that it will be used in naval warfare. Attacking Gold Cloaks is not naval warfare, and I can think of no example in the canon in which sailors were used to defeat watchmen, soldiers, etc.

[Nuxipal]

TldR Argument. I'll make a ruling tonight

[Givious]

I might be late to the conversation, but aren't the sailors are implied by Givious noting that his house has a fleet? No one else mentioned their sailors when noting naval power.

The implication of a fleet is that it will be used in naval warfare. Attacking Gold Cloaks is not naval warfare, and I can think of no example in the canon in which sailors were used to defeat watchmen, soldiers, etc.

My reasoning for using them was you were using ground troops to control sea troops... They wouldn't just go "Shit, we aren't supposed to fight with weapons" and give up...

EDIT: You also now control 3/4s of the Royal treasury, but 100 ships (fewer than you I believe) is too far

[Novae Vitae]

The implication of a fleet is that it will be used in naval warfare. Attacking Gold Cloaks is not naval warfare, and I can think of no example in the canon in which sailors were used to defeat watchmen, soldiers, etc.

My reasoning for using them was you were using ground troops to control sea troops... They wouldn't just go "Shit, we aren't supposed to fight with weapons" and give up...

You still give me no canon example, and perhaps if it was your intent to use them you should have told us. There were large discussions on this matter, yet it must be established IC that you have--as Krugmar estimates--9,500 sailors in King's Landing, all willing to fight and die as loyalists. You will have to forgive me if I protest to this not being mentioned in the several large discussions.

[Phalnia]

You still give me no canon example, and perhaps if it was your intent to use them you should have told us. There were large discussions on this matter, yet it must be established IC that you have--as Krugmar estimates--9,500 sailors in King's Landing, all willing to fight and die as loyalists. You will have to forgive me if I protest to this not being mentioned in the several large discussions.

Can you give a canon example of gold cloaks assaulting the Red Keep and holding sailors as prisoners on their own ships? Regardless these sailors have no idea why the goldcloaks are seizing their ships/their homes in the middle of the night.

It's likely to rile them up.

[Novae Vitae]

You still give me no canon example, and perhaps if it was your intent to use them you should have told us. There were large discussions on this matter, yet it must be established IC that you have--as Krugmar estimates--9,500 sailors in King's Landing, all willing to fight and die as loyalists. You will have to forgive me if I protest to this not being mentioned in the several large discussions.

Can you give a canon example of gold cloaks assaulting the Red Keep and holding sailors as prisoners on their own ships? Regardless these sailors have no idea why the goldcloaks are seizing their ships/their homes in the middle of the night.

It's likely to rile them up.

You've answered my question with a question. As much as I would like to simply refute with a question as well, I would like to consider debate more sound.

And I can give you an example of the Gold Cloaks seizing control of the city--recall, if you will, the Dance of the Dragons, in which King's Landing fell to Rhaenyra because of Daemon's influence in the Gold Cloaks. Presumably any ships that were docked in King's Landing were taken by the Gold Cloaks, as Corlys Velaryon sailed his fleet into the Blackwater unopposed. Further, there is no mention of Rhaenyra flying Syrax down to assail 9,500 sailors assailing Gold Cloaks come to take the fleet.

[Diliath]

Nothing here, read on.

[The Nuclear Fist]

What is the issue? This thread has blown up.

[Novae Vitae]

What is the issue? This thread has blown up.

Quite a bit of reading for you, ami.

Anyway, he's what happened:

-Givious made a post, detailing the failed seizure of the harbor, the escape of the Royal Fleet with Oberyn and others, and the destruction of the harbor chain, all because the Gold Cloaks were overwhelmed by an unknown but "vastly" large number of sailors.
-I questioned where the sailors came from, why Givious had not mentioned them before, and how they organized themselves so effectively, amongst other things.
-lots of debating (for best reference, see the debate between Krugmar and I, as I believe it to be the most thorough)