Pax Per Bellum: An 18th century Alt-History RP [OOC, OPEN]

[Terminus Alpha]

Semi-long term expansion plans.

Basically, I'm gunning to control the Ohio River Valley and Upper Mississippi. Those who wish to use the rivers may, but all animals in the rivers will belong to the Five Civilized Nations. Depending on the person, unauthorized fishing/trapping will either net you a fine, or jail time.

i honestly doubt Native Americans will be able to enforce fauna ownership in the face of combined European guns.

Well, only the most annoying/nationalistic of people would take that seriously. Of course we can't enforce it, it's mostly a title for prestige and/or Causus Belli.

We have guns too, by the way, and as of tomorrow we will have Spanish trainers.

[Zgraja]

Death to the non Orthodox!

[Traders Union]

Jeez you guys post fast. So what new schemes have I missed? Also, any new on IC being up?

[Super-Llamaland]

It's already up.

[Traders Union]

It's already up.

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS *composes self* Cool

[Aden Protectorate]

Any schemes involving me?

[Machtergreifung]

i honestly doubt Native Americans will be able to enforce fauna ownership in the face of combined European guns.

Well, only the most annoying/nationalistic of people would take that seriously. Of course we can't enforce it, it's mostly a title for prestige and/or Causus Belli.

We have guns too, by the way, and as of tomorrow we will have Spanish trainers.

A hundred guns and a handful of Spaniards to act as trainers. Something tells me it's going to take longer than a single month to train 25,000 warriors to use gunpowder weapons.

The thing is, it's not just about who has muskets, it's more than that. It's logistics - the Europeans may find it hard going to drag their supply wagons along with them, but they can campaign all year round if they need to. The natives don't have that luxury, they need to go home and gather the harvest, or there's the risk that the women, the old men and the children can't gather all the harvest in. The warriors also represent the members of society who are the most capable at hunting - an important consideration considering the dependence on subsistence farming.

There is a reason that standing armies didn't become a thing until the 15th Century or so. It's extremely difficult to feed an army when it's not living off the land...

[Traders Union]

How do you edit the official map? It would be useful in showing my plans but I don't know how

[Prusslandia]

Peru is mainly jungle and highland, correct ?

If so, then war parties of scalp taking, human sacrificing guerrilla warriors will make hell upon any europeans seeking to subjugate me.

[Terminus Alpha]

Well, only the most annoying/nationalistic of people would take that seriously. Of course we can't enforce it, it's mostly a title for prestige and/or Causus Belli.

We have guns too, by the way, and as of tomorrow we will have Spanish trainers.

A hundred guns and a handful of Spaniards to act as trainers. Something tells me it's going to take longer than a single month to train 25,000 warriors to use gunpowder weapons.

The thing is, it's not just about who has muskets, it's more than that. It's logistics - the Europeans may find it hard going to drag their supply wagons along with them, but they can campaign all year round if they need to. The natives don't have that luxury, they need to go home and gather the harvest, or there's the risk that the women, the old men and the children can't gather all the harvest in. The warriors also represent the members of society who are the most capable at hunting - an important consideration considering the dependence on subsistence farming.

There is a reason that standing armies didn't become a thing until the 15th Century or so. It's extremely difficult to feed an army when it's not living off the land...

This was brought up where? I meant the title was almost completely for prestige, and the CB is intended to be against NPCs/justify going to war alongside whoever becomes my benefactor.

Also, the army is a standing one, with surplus food (of which there is plenty) being given to local forces before to the granaries/store-houses. Those men who are not actual soldiers (the vast majority of men in the Confederation) are treated essentially as reserves, but they aren't officially trained until they are drafted. The Confederation is the entirely subsistence agriculture economy you are making it out to be. Yes, most people are either directly or indirectly involved with growing crops, but the same can be said of Europe at this time. Merchant/Bourgeois classes are just starting to emerge, Nobility has always been a small fraction of the population, and the same goes for the clergy.

And I'm using the Spanish trainers more as advisers, the troops know how to use guns, they just need better tactics, leadership, and discipline. The weapons/ammunition that we get from trading will be stockpiled.

[Machtergreifung]

A hundred guns and a handful of Spaniards to act as trainers. Something tells me it's going to take longer than a single month to train 25,000 warriors to use gunpowder weapons.

The thing is, it's not just about who has muskets, it's more than that. It's logistics - the Europeans may find it hard going to drag their supply wagons along with them, but they can campaign all year round if they need to. The natives don't have that luxury, they need to go home and gather the harvest, or there's the risk that the women, the old men and the children can't gather all the harvest in. The warriors also represent the members of society who are the most capable at hunting - an important consideration considering the dependence on subsistence farming.

There is a reason that standing armies didn't become a thing until the 15th Century or so. It's extremely difficult to feed an army when it's not living off the land...

Also, the army is a standing one, with surplus food (of which there is plenty) being given to local forces before to the granaries/store-houses. Those men who are not actual soldiers (the vast majority of men in the Confederation) are treated essentially as reserves, but they aren't officially trained until they are drafted. The Confederation is the entirely subsistence agriculture economy you are making it out to be. Yes, most people are either directly or indirectly involved with growing crops, but the same can be said of Europe at this time. Merchant/Bourgeois classes are just starting to emerge, Nobility has always been a small fraction of the population, and the same goes for the clergy.

Your application makes it appear that you're growing just enough food crops to sustain your population, and using the rest of the land for cash crops. If that's not the case, then you need to look up the definition of sustenance. How then can you build up a surplus if you're farming at the sustenance level?

Your comparison with your own agriculture and Europe doesn't work. Granted, the majority of the European population do work in agriculture, but it's intensive agriculture with profit in mind.

Even if you brush all that to the side, you're essentially faced with the same problems as the levy based armies of 11th and 12th Century Europe: how do you get your food from the villages to the troops when you describe most of your roads as little more than well trodden paths?

In the end, you'd have a standing army of 25,000, but you'd have 20,000 simply moving enough food for 5000 to mount a campaign. This isn't a figure I've made up: check the number of Canadians that were engaged in logistics work versus actual combat roles on the French side in the French and Indian War.

The French and Indian War is also a good example of the difficulties faced by a standing army in the wilds of North America. Most of those difficulties simply didn't exist for the natives, who retained the tribal levy structure.

Essentially, you're trying to have a 18th Century institute (a standing army) built on the basis of a 12th Century economic base. That won't end well.

[Terminus Alpha]

Also, the army is a standing one, with surplus food (of which there is plenty) being given to local forces before to the granaries/store-houses. Those men who are not actual soldiers (the vast majority of men in the Confederation) are treated essentially as reserves, but they aren't officially trained until they are drafted. The Confederation is the entirely subsistence agriculture economy you are making it out to be. Yes, most people are either directly or indirectly involved with growing crops, but the same can be said of Europe at this time. Merchant/Bourgeois classes are just starting to emerge, Nobility has always been a small fraction of the population, and the same goes for the clergy.

Your application makes it appear that you're growing just enough food crops to sustain your population, and using the rest of the land for cash crops. If that's not the case, then you need to look up the definition of sustenance. How then can you build up a surplus if you're farming at the sustenance level?

Your comparison with your own agriculture and Europe doesn't work. Granted, the majority of the European population do work in agriculture, but it's intensive agriculture with profit in mind.

Even if you brush all that to the side, you're essentially faced with the same problems as the levy based armies of 11th and 12th Century Europe: how do you get your food from the villages to the troops when you describe most of your roads as little more than well trodden paths?

In the end, you'd have a standing army of 25,000, but you'd have 20,000 simply moving enough food for 5000 to mount a campaign. This isn't a figure I've made up: check the number of Canadians that were engaged in logistics work versus actual combat roles on the French side in the French and Indian War.

The French and Indian War is also a good example of the difficulties faced by a standing army in the wilds of North America. Most of those difficulties simply didn't exist for the natives, who retained the tribal levy structure.

Essentially, you're trying to have a 18th Century institute (a standing army) built on the basis of a 12th Century economic base. That won't end well.

Oh, I used sustenance to mean that the Three Sisters were the crops grown for food. Not that they were subsistence agriculture. Five National fields are something of a combination of the European and Native American agricultural styles. The fields are owned by the village, farmers work the fields, and when harvest time rolls in, they take their crops to the granary/store-house. The food is then distributed to households on the basis of need. Cash-crops are harvested in a similar way.

As for the supply situation, you bring up a good point. If I'm going to engage in combat with other players, I will need to improve my infrastructure. But that will come after I get a modernized government bureaucracy built. Against NPC tribes, we won't have major offensives, we'll either absorb the tribes into the Confederation or use smaller detachments of troops to assert our control of the area. With poor supply lines, this will take longer. The Army will pressure the Council to improve the roads of the Nations, but this would be a power-grab for the Council, away from the local representatives.

I'm using the Army to build the State, you see. If it wants to be a modern European-like force, it will need supply lines. Only an actual central government can build the infrastructure to their needs. And currently, the Confederation is in the nebulous space in between "alliance and trade pact" and "Nation-State."

[The Kingdom of Glitter]

We have guns too, by the way, and as of tomorrow we will have Spanish trainers.

I suggest murdering the Spanish trainers c:

Will gain you brownie points with France.

You will get even better Carolinian trainers to help you.

[Prusslandia]

WIP

Full Nation Name: The Inca(n) Empire
Short Nation Name: The Inca
National Flag:
Territory:
Official Language(s):
Form of Government:
Head of State:
Head of Government: (if different)
Capital City:
Population:
Religion: (state the situation of the church within your nation)
Army: (both size and a description of its quality, organisation & structure, etc)
Navy: (same as the army)
Economic Strength: (briefly describe how wealthy your nation is)
Infrastructure: (briefly describe the quality of your nations infrastructure)
Primary Goals:
History: (from point of deviation)
RP Example: (unless I know you well)

[Terminus Alpha]

We have guns too, by the way, and as of tomorrow we will have Spanish trainers.

I suggest murdering the Spanish trainers c:

Will gain you brownie points with France.

You will get even better Carolinian trainers to help you.

Well, in IC, you don't know that I sent one to both you and Spain, and they were the first to respond, so I'm liable to not kill the guys sent to help me and alienate one of the two Great Powers on my borders.

[The Kingdom of Glitter]

I suggest murdering the Spanish trainers c:

Will gain you brownie points with France.

You will get even better Carolinian trainers to help you.

Well, in IC, you don't know that I sent one to both you and Spain, and they were the first to respond, so I'm liable to not kill the guys sent to help me and alienate one of the two Great Powers on my borders.

No I don't know that, but one could assume it is common knowledge fucking over Spain in anyway possible will make France happy

[Argentarino]

I suggest murdering the Spanish trainers c:

Will gain you brownie points with France.

You will get even better Carolinian trainers to help you.

Well, in IC, you don't know that I sent one to both you and Spain, and they were the first to respond, so I'm liable to not kill the guys sent to help me and alienate one of the two Great Powers on my borders.

I certainly hope that our gift isn't returned to us...that would be rather...unfortunate

[Terminus Alpha]

Well, in IC, you don't know that I sent one to both you and Spain, and they were the first to respond, so I'm liable to not kill the guys sent to help me and alienate one of the two Great Powers on my borders.

No I don't know that, but one could assume it is common knowledge fucking over Spain in anyway possible will make France happy

And I can gain more from trade with two nations.

[Aden Protectorate]

I can't post right know as I am on Mobile, however France could you please sen me a communication proposing our already arranged agreement (the monopoly, Modenization and your representation in my name etc.) so I have some things to discuss in my post.

[Altito Asmoro]

I'll find the time to post.

[Glovania]

Full Nation Name: Holy Empire of Japan
Short Nation Name: Japan
National Flag: Flag - Imperial Seal
Territory:
Official Language(s):
Form of Government:
Head of State:
Head of Government: (if different)
Capital City:
Population:
Religion: (state the situation of the church within your nation)
Army: (both size and a description of its quality, organisation & structure, etc)
Navy: (same as the army)
Economic Strength: (briefly describe how wealthy your nation is)
Infrastructure: (briefly describe the quality of your nations infrastructure)
Primary Goals:
History: (from point of deviation)
RP Example: (unless I know you well)

[Britcan]

Full Nation Name: Holy Empire of Japan
Short Nation Name: Japan
National Flag: Flag - Imperial Seal
Territory:
Official Language(s):
Form of Government:
Head of State:
Head of Government: (if different)
Capital City:
Population:
Religion: (state the situation of the church within your nation)
Army: (both size and a description of its quality, organisation & structure, etc)
Navy: (same as the army)
Economic Strength: (briefly describe how wealthy your nation is)
Infrastructure: (briefly describe the quality of your nations infrastructure)
Primary Goals:
History: (from point of deviation)
RP Example: (unless I know you well)

Japan is taken.

[Claven]

I've had just about enough of you people saying Armenia is open.

And UME, can we still maintain peace?

[New Granadeseret]

I've had just about enough of you people saying Armenia is open.

And UME, can we still maintain peace?

I believe they're referring to the medieval Kingdom of Armenia region (those ultra-nationalistic Armenian claims for a more contemporary example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of ... (antiquity) ), not the modern day country.

Also, for the region, if no PC fills it, I think a collection of hill-land tribes (Somewhat similar to the North Caucuses of the period in our timeline), made up of a mix of Armenian, Turkmen, and Muslim Kurdish groups. It would help explain why an area in the center of civilizations didn't organize as effectively as their neighbors.

Death to the non Orthodox!

On that note, I just realized his name makes no sense. The term "Middle East" wasn't even used in this point in history to describe the region. It never came into any real use until the 20th century; well beyond the scope of our RP.

[Claven]

I believe they're referring to the medieval Kingdom of Armenia region (those ultra-nationalistic Armenian claims for a more contemporary example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of ... (antiquity) ), not the modern day country.

Also, for the region, if no PC fills it, I think a collection of hill-land tribes (Somewhat similar to the North Caucuses of the period in our timeline), made up of a mix of Armenian, Turkmen, and Muslim Kurdish groups. It would help explain why an area in the center of civilizations didn't organize as effectively as their neighbors.

What I meant to say was Armenia will be mine....