Westeros: Rise of a King (Dead)

[Toronina]

Might take a second character if I can. Most likely a Tyrell Bannerman

Whom, might I inquire?

Dunno yet, Maybe Horas or Hobber Redwyne, or some other house.

[Of the Quendi]

What we cannot overcome, we endure. That basically translates to: we'll just bow our heads and serve you just like all the other lords, but we will constantly be plotting with others who sympathize with us to overthrow you.

Your king thanks you. When he regains his throne, or convinces Aerion to become a proper Targaryen king by administering a dose of fire and blood to the Reach, you shall be named a knight of the Order of the Dragon.

I don't know how to get my character involved in all of this. Ideas?

I kinda got that feeling, hence why I would inquire about your character.

Well presumably if your character owns properties in Lys he won't be terribly excited about the fact that a pirate lord has conquered it, so maybe your character can join the Volantene war on Area Cithien. Take command over a Penthosi volunteer fleet attacking Tyrosh or something like that perhaps?

Dunno yet, Maybe Horas or Hobber Redwyne, or some other house.

House Redwyne is pretty awesome. Can defeat every great house except Greyjoy and the king's house at sea.

[Sebastianbourg]

I don't know how to get my character involved in all of this. Ideas?

I kinda got that feeling, hence why I would inquire about your character.

Well presumably if your character owns properties in Lys he won't be terribly excited about the fact that a pirate lord has conquered it, so maybe your character can join the Volantene war on Area Cithien. Take command over a Penthosi volunteer fleet attacking Tyrosh or something like that perhaps?

I'll probably have him do something like that.

[Of the Quendi]

I'll probably have him do something like that.

Or, you know, you could just head east and pledge your allegiance to the dragon emperor like all the cool kids.

[Sebastianbourg]

I'll probably have him do something like that.

Or, you know, you could just head east and pledge your allegiance to the dragon emperor like all the cool kids.

I suppose that is a possibility considering my character only cares about money, prestige and his 'courtesans'.

[Arana]

Or, you know, you could just head east and pledge your allegiance to the dragon emperor like all the cool kids.

I suppose that is a possibility considering my character only cares about money, prestige and his 'courtesans'.

Or, alternate option, you could pledge allegiance to the pirate king, who will probably end up eliminating most of your competition (with all the piracy and all) and won't burn you alive and seize your properties if you join him.

[Sebastianbourg]

I suppose that is a possibility considering my character only cares about money, prestige and his 'courtesans'.

Or, alternate option, you could pledge allegiance to the pirate king, who will probably end up eliminating most of your competition (with all the piracy and all) and won't burn you alive and seize your properties if you join him.

I'll consider all options, read over the IC thread to understand it fully and make a decision.

[Toronina]

How old would Horas be? I assume during ASOIAF he'd be in his 20's.

[Of the Quendi]

I suppose that is a possibility considering my character only cares about money, prestige and his 'courtesans'.

In Ghiscari polygamy and hierogamy is practised and if Aemon vassalizes Qarth his empire will control some of the most important trade channels in the known world = profit.

How old would Horas be? I assume during ASOIAF he'd be in his 20's.

Early twenties probably. Horas and Hobber apparently taunted Samwell and he is seventeen so it would seem unlikely that they where much older then that.

[Toronina]

I suppose that is a possibility considering my character only cares about money, prestige and his 'courtesans'.

In Ghiscari polygamy and hierogamy is practised and if Aemon vassalizes Qarth his empire will control some of the most important trade channels in the known world = profit.

How old would Horas be? I assume during ASOIAF he'd be in his 20's.

Early twenties probably. Horas and Hobber apparently taunted Samwell and he is seventeen so it would seem unlikely that they where much older then that.

So around 50 in the RP?

[Of the Quendi]

So around 50 in the RP?

Something like that. Since Horas's age is never given there is probably quite a bit of leeway for you to pick a number you like.

[Toronina]

NS Nation Name: Toronina
Character Name: Lord Horas Redwyne
Nickname, if any: Ser Horror
Title, if any: Lord of The Arbor
Age: 53 (Hope that is acceptable)
Gender: Male
House Allegiance: Tyrell
Appearance:

Biography (At least 2 well written paragraphs) Born the Eldest son of Paxter Redwyne, older then his brother Horas by a few seconds. Horas had a upbringing on his father's fleet. At the age of 17, he was knighted by his father, as was his twin Hobber. Hobber and Horas often argued about who would succeed their father, as each claimed be the be elder twin. At age 25, he and his brother participated in the tourney to celebrate Eddard Stark's appointment to hand of the king, and were later held captive to ensure their father did not send his ships to Renly's aid. Hobber was later released but Horas was kept, and implicated in the accusation he had bedded his cousin Margaery Tyrell. Eventually released and declared innocent, he soon became acting lord as Paxter grew sickly and his brother gave up the argument, declaring Horas heir. A year later, the new Lord of the Arbor participated in the Sack of King's Landing which killed King Jon and Queen Daenerys.

Now 53, Horas is married and has 5 Sons but no daughters. Hobber, Mace, Runceford, Luthor and Ryam. He has come to King's Landing to watch them participate in the Tourney, as well as to greet the King, his liege lord and discuss possible matches for his sons.
Any Additional Information: Horas is a great fan of his own product, Arbor Gold.

NS Nation Name: Toronina
House Name: Redwyne
Leader: Horas Redwyne
Lands: The Arbor, an island off the coast of the Reach
Overlord, if any: Loras Tyrell
Coat of Arms:

[Of the Quendi]

In anticipation of a future Ghiscari support Jaerator assault on Qarth I have tried to figure out as much as possible about the city and its area of control. Specifically with a focus on its military.

What I have found so far does not bode well for the ability of Qarth to withstand Ghiscar-Jaerator. What I have found seem to indicate that the Qartheen military is more of a ceremonial then effective force and that Qarth relies more on its isolated location and its high walls for defense then it does on the power of its military.

About the Qartheen military we know; they use camels, its warriors; "wear scaled, copper armor and snouted-helms with copper tusks and long, black silk plumes", the Purborn command the civic guard and a fleet whose war galleys is described as "ornate". Xaro Xhoan Daxos commands 83 ships but has no warships.

So. The overall impression I am left with is a rich city that in its isolation has neglected and not felt the need to maintain a powerful military. Its soldiers wear expensive copper armor that cost far more than armor of iron and steel and is less effective, possibly suggesting that the Qartheen military is stuck in the bronze age and hasn't underwent military reforms since. They use camels, even at Meereen where they could have used horses. Camels are superior to horses in deserts, but no where else. The fact they use them where they could use horses either indicate that the Qartheen generals are dumb or that Qarth simply has no horses. The fleet commanded by the Purborn is probably the only war fleet since the fact that Xaro Xhoan Daxos, one of the most powerful merchants of Qarth, has not a single warship. That fleet is described as being "ornate". Not formidable, not awe-inspiring, ornate. Qarth's forces present at the Second Siege of Meereen also isn't described in any way that indicate that they are a large or powerful force.

So overall I estimate the Qartheen civil guard as a relatively small force using outdated equipment and techniques (but possibly otherwise well trained) while I am inclined to not consider the war fleets of Qarth as formidable as their trade ones.

Source for Qartheen facts

[New Granadeseret]

In anticipation of a future Ghiscari support Jaerator assault on Qarth I have tried to figure out as much as possible about the city and its area of control. Specifically with a focus on its military.

What I have found so far does not bode well for the ability of Qarth to withstand Ghiscar-Jaerator. What I have found seem to indicate that the Qartheen military is more of a ceremonial then effective force and that Qarth relies more on its isolated location and its high walls for defense then it does on the power of its military.

About the Qartheen military we know; they use camels, its warriors; "wear scaled, copper armor and snouted-helms with copper tusks and long, black silk plumes", the Purborn command the civic guard and a fleet whose war galleys is described as "ornate". Xaro Xhoan Daxos commands 83 ships but has no warships.

So. The overall impression I am left with is a rich city that in its isolation has neglected and not felt the need to maintain a powerful military. Its soldiers wear expensive copper armor that cost far more than armor of iron and steel and is less effective, possibly suggesting that the Qartheen military is stuck in the bronze age and hasn't underwent military reforms since. They use camels, even at Meereen where they could have used horses. Camels are superior to horses in deserts, but no where else. The fact they use them where they could use horses either indicate that the Qartheen generals are dumb or that Qarth simply has no horses. The fleet commanded by the Purborn is probably the only war fleet since the fact that Xaro Xhoan Daxos, one of the most powerful merchants of Qarth, has not a single warship. That fleet is described as being "ornate". Not formidable, not awe-inspiring, ornate. Qarth's forces present at the Second Siege of Meereen also isn't described in any way that indicate that they are a large or powerful force.

So overall I estimate the Qartheen civil guard as a relatively small force using outdated equipment and techniques (but possibly otherwise well trained) while I am inclined to not consider the war fleets of Qarth as formidable as their trade ones.

Source for Qartheen facts

Actually, a Camel (sometimes depending on the sort) offers advantages over horses, and were likely chosen specifically due to Qarth's location. They can go days without food and water (Which in the dry, barren terrain close to the city would be advantageous), and can carry far heavier weights than a horse. There is also the oder, which spooks horses and (Since the Dothraki almost exclusively use cavalry) could unhorse an entire raiding force from the north-east with ease, serving as the best available defense against their only appreciable rival. Humped camels also give a height advantage for sitting on the hump (though that is could just be to look more impressive in parades).

I'll admit they don't look like military experts, but it looks more to me like they're trying to make use of local resources and keep up pomp and ceremony (mixed with the simple ignorance of a city that hasen't had to face a siege in a centuries) rather than being completely incompetent. Also, remember the great merchant houses command a rather large fleet, and have a strong population base while the Ghis are still recovering from their war of unification with the starvation and civil infighting that accompanied the fall of the slavers.

[Of the Quendi]

Actually, a Camel (sometimes depending on the sort) offers advantages over horses, and were likely chosen specifically due to Qarth's location. They can go days without food and water (Which in the dry, barren terrain close to the city would be advantageous), and can carry far heavier weights than a horse. There is also the oder, which spooks horses and (Since the Dothraki almost exclusively use cavalry) could unhorse an entire raiding force from the north-east with ease, serving as the best available defense against their only appreciable rival. Humped camels also give a height advantage for sitting on the hump (though that is could just be to look more impressive in parades).

I'll admit they don't look like military experts, but it looks more to me like they're trying to make use of local resources and keep up pomp and ceremony (mixed with the simple ignorance of a city that hasen't had to face a siege in a centuries) rather than being completely incompetent. Also, remember the great merchant houses command a rather large fleet, and have a strong population base while the Ghis are still recovering from their war of unification with the starvation and civil infighting that accompanied the fall of the slavers.

Yes as I said a camel is the better choice in a desert where a horse can't operate. Horses fear of camels wear of relatively quickly. Besides the fact that horses fear camels isn't really a good reason to choose to send camels to besiege a city's whose defenders are almost exclusively infantry. Their decision to send camels was either misguided or they simply have no horses.

The merchants have merchant fleets. As I said Xaro Xhoan Daxos claim ownership over 83 ships but not a single warship. Presumably we can take this to mean that the merchants only have merchant ships. Which kinda make sense. And any army in the iron and steel age that prefer expensive and inferior copper army clearly isn't exactly up to date. My guess is that the civil guard is similar to the freemen forces of Astapor. A very pretty parade force that won't pose a threat to a real army.

As for the strong population base Qarth might very well be the largest city in the world. But its in the middle of a desert with only a little amount of territory under its control. The population of the territory of Qarth is probably basically the population of Qarth itself. Even if the Ghiscari Empire is still burdened by a war that is a generation past it can certainly outmatch Qarth's population. Probably by a considerable margin.

[New Granadeseret]

Actually, a Camel (sometimes depending on the sort) offers advantages over horses, and were likely chosen specifically due to Qarth's location. They can go days without food and water (Which in the dry, barren terrain close to the city would be advantageous), and can carry far heavier weights than a horse. There is also the oder, which spooks horses and (Since the Dothraki almost exclusively use cavalry) could unhorse an entire raiding force from the north-east with ease, serving as the best available defense against their only appreciable rival. Humped camels also give a height advantage for sitting on the hump (though that is could just be to look more impressive in parades).

I'll admit they don't look like military experts, but it looks more to me like they're trying to make use of local resources and keep up pomp and ceremony (mixed with the simple ignorance of a city that hasen't had to face a siege in a centuries) rather than being completely incompetent. Also, remember the great merchant houses command a rather large fleet, and have a strong population base while the Ghis are still recovering from their war of unification with the starvation and civil infighting that accompanied the fall of the slavers.

Yes as I said a camel is the better choice in a desert where a horse can't operate. Horses fear of camels wear of relatively quickly. Besides the fact that horses fear camels isn't really a good reason to choose to send camels to besiege a city's whose defenders are almost exclusively infantry. Their decision to send camels was either misguided or they simply have no horses.

The merchants have merchant fleets. As I said Xaro Xhoan Daxos claim ownership over 83 ships but not a single warship. Presumably we can take this to mean that the merchants only have merchant ships. Which kinda make sense. And any army in the iron and steel age that prefer expensive and inferior copper army clearly isn't exactly up to date. My guess is that the civil guard is similar to the freemen forces of Astapor. A very pretty parade force that won't pose a threat to a real army.

As for the strong population base Qarth might very well be the largest city in the world. But its in the middle of a desert with only a little amount of territory under its control. The population of the territory of Qarth is probably basically the population of Qarth itself. Even if the Ghiscari Empire is still burdened by a war that is a generation past it can certainly outmatch Qarth's population. Probably by a considerable margin.

It does fade if they're constantly exposed for a few days, but the Dothraki war stragey is one of quick attacks and raids: to be able to throw an entire Dothraki attack into disarray and unhorse a group of people used to fighting almost exclusively on horseback would mean any attack on them would be deadly. As Dothraki raids are the only threat their territory might face (Isolation and whatnot), and any group who has attacked them before isen't likely to do so again after getting cut down, that temporary fear would be all they'd need to defend their outlying territories (such as they are).

As for the ships, I do agree their navy would largely be a museum piece. However, its simply absurd to think they have no warships: the guilds are dependent on trade for their wealth (as is the city itself) and its a massive port city; they would have to be poor businessmen to realize that needs to be protected. The guilds combined command about 3000 ships; far surpassing anything Ghiscari could turn out, not including the war gallies of the Pureborn's fleet. The rise of the Pirate King and decline in the trade share of the Free Cities would only give them more reason to protect their merchants ships and more to lose if they were attacked. As for one single member

I see Qarth as something along the lines of 18th century Venice; certainly long past its prime but still able to put up a bit of a fight. The population issue is more one of force projection: Ghis forces marching on Qarth overland would be painfully costly, and there are only so many men you can take on ships. Xaro Xhoan Daxos personally commanding only merchant ships make perfect sense; the guilds as a collective would hardly tolerate infighting and personal wars between traders. I'd imagine the warship elements are commanded by the guilds themselves, to be dolled out as needed.

I imagine Qarth along the lines of Venice; her territory is small, but she has outposts EVERYWHERE, and the wealth and ties to call up tribal warriors and the household forces of her wealthy families in times of need. The Pureborn might not be perfect, but its certainly better than having to pay tribute and taxes to the Ghiscari, and the merchant houses know this (Besides being the sort of independently wealthy centers of power

As for the war, cities were crushed and looted, starvation rampant in the cities as the outlying estates refused to send in food, and the fighting age population of the area, mercenaries included, slaughtered while in the service off the other cities by an outnumbered force under Daenerys. The economy was in shambles since there was no organization and the orchard crop (pride of Ghiscari) trees should only have been baring fruit for 10 years tops. That's discounting the armies that were apparently tossed over to Westros when Aemon tried to retake his throne, which would have chewed up a chunk of those children who survived the great wars that unified Ghis. Crushing all opposition to your rule, particularly when the leaders you leave behind have a tendency to become Butcher Kings, is a bloody and costly process. We'd also have to add the Dothraki taking advantage of a good situation where the city walls are down, the people disorganized, and the majority of the men who could stop them from riding in and pillaging what's left are dead.

And, to be fair, its not like everywhere else in the world hasen't had to deal with those things either: its just that everything shoulden't be set up so Ghis is so powerful (relative to everyone else), Aemon world hegemony isen't a cakewalk. Westros is full of instability, the Free Cities divided and hamstrung by the Pirate King, the Summer Isles as pacifist as ever, and the Dothraki more a mess than anything else. Ghis ought not be a perfect place.

[Woodstovia]

Am I accepted then?

[Of the Quendi]

It does fade if they're constantly exposed for a few days, but the Dothraki war stragey is one of quick attacks and raids: to be able to throw an entire Dothraki attack into disarray and unhorse a group of people used to fighting almost exclusively on horseback would mean any attack on them would be deadly. As Dothraki raids are the only threat their territory might face (Isolation and whatnot), and any group who has attacked them before isen't likely to do so again after getting cut down, that temporary fear would be all they'd need to defend their outlying territories (such as they are).

As for the ships, I do agree their navy would largely be a museum piece. However, its simply absurd to think they have no warships: the guilds are dependent on trade for their wealth (as is the city itself) and its a massive port city; they would have to be poor businessmen to realize that needs to be protected. The guilds combined command about 3000 ships; far surpassing anything Ghiscari could turn out, not including the war gallies of the Pureborn's fleet. The rise of the Pirate King and decline in the trade share of the Free Cities would only give them more reason to protect their merchants ships and more to lose if they were attacked. As for one single member

I see Qarth as something along the lines of 18th century Venice; certainly long past its prime but still able to put up a bit of a fight. The population issue is more one of force projection: Ghis forces marching on Qarth overland would be painfully costly, and there are only so many men you can take on ships. Xaro Xhoan Daxos personally commanding only merchant ships make perfect sense; the guilds as a collective would hardly tolerate infighting and personal wars between traders. I'd imagine the warship elements are commanded by the guilds themselves, to be dolled out as needed.

I imagine Qarth along the lines of Venice; her territory is small, but she has outposts EVERYWHERE, and the wealth and ties to call up tribal warriors and the household forces of her wealthy families in times of need. The Pureborn might not be perfect, but its certainly better than having to pay tribute and taxes to the Ghiscari, and the merchant houses know this (Besides being the sort of independently wealthy centers of power

As for the war, cities were crushed and looted, starvation rampant in the cities as the outlying estates refused to send in food, and the fighting age population of the area, mercenaries included, slaughtered while in the service off the other cities by an outnumbered force under Daenerys. The economy was in shambles since there was no organization and the orchard crop (pride of Ghiscari) trees should only have been baring fruit for 10 years tops. That's discounting the armies that were apparently tossed over to Westros when Aemon tried to retake his throne, which would have chewed up a chunk of those children who survived the great wars that unified Ghis. Crushing all opposition to your rule, particularly when the leaders you leave behind have a tendency to become Butcher Kings, is a bloody and costly process. We'd also have to add the Dothraki taking advantage of a good situation where the city walls are down, the people disorganized, and the majority of the men who could stop them from riding in and pillaging what's left are dead.

And, to be fair, its not like everywhere else in the world hasen't had to deal with those things either: its just that everything shoulden't be set up so Ghis is so powerful (relative to everyone else), Aemon world hegemony isen't a cakewalk. Westros is full of instability, the Free Cities divided and hamstrung by the Pirate King, the Summer Isles as pacifist as ever, and the Dothraki more a mess than anything else. Ghis ought not be a perfect place.

I am not saying camels are a bad choice for the Red Waste, they are the obvious choice for any conflict there. But they where a wrong choice for the siege of Meereen. Either the Qartheen don't know that and then their competence is in question, or they simply has no ordinary cavalry.

I never said they have no warships. They might very well have more of them then my Empire. But I don't think there fleet is the biggest in the world and the fact that its ships are described as being "ornate", combined with the fact that what we know of their army is that it wears very expensive and very outdated armor, that is a big red flag indicating that the Qartheen fleet isn't up to date. As for the idea that the merchant guilds have additional warships but that their members don't I find it unlikely. They are merchants not soldiers. If they need to fight someone they probably have to hire sellsails. Besides your argument that the guilds would oppose having the individual merchants own warships can also be used with respect to the Pureborn opposing the guild having warships.

As for force projection that isn't what we are discussing. I am well aware that I can't move the whole of my army through the Red Waste. But we are not discussing how many troops I can move to Qarth (on four hundred of the Tourmaline brotherhoods ships quite a few) we are talking about how many they can raise. Their population will determine that. And if their population is basically the population of a city plus a little bit more then that city could be gargantuan and it still wouldn't be a high total population. There is no mention in the books of there being any Qartheen outposts in the west, presumably there would have been if they had any. If they have none in the west they probably have none in the west.

Regarding the war only one city, Astapor is mentioned as having been crushed. The war was bloody and savage but lasted only two years and left large parts of my empire untouched. Since then thirty years of mostly peace has ensued. Plus the abolition of slavery would have led to a population boom as slaves suddenly get a chance of a life in prosperity. This combined with the replacement of the cruel, arbitrary and stagnant Ghiscari governments with a dynamic and competent one under Aemon would have allowed total replacement of casualties and quite possible an expansion of the population.

Ghis isn't perfect. But it is a centralized empire where most of the rest of the world is not. From an OOC standpoint we can argue whether this is fair or not but IC'ly its the facts of the situation. The Ghiscari Empire rules over a territory the size of that of the Roman Empire Qarth is an up jump city-state, the last remnant of a civilization that was destroyed by the Sarnori and the Dothraki. It is not likely that it can call on an army to match that of the Ghiscari Empire and its navy may be large but I am not convinced its stronger than those of Volantis or Braavos or that it can match the combined Westerosi navies in battle. That doesn't mean that world hegemony is just around the corner for Aemon. Having the largest military (and really I only RP it to be about 1.5 times the size of that of the Reach) doesn't guarantee hegemony.

[Diliath]

I think the offer to Missandei is a reasonable and fair one, if someone disagrees please tell methen I'll change it. As said in the post will I reform the Qartheen army to make it more suitable for war. About the demons, demons exist in the awoiaf, but they are not very specific. I took the beast on the flag of Meereen as example, Mordonin is a demon summoner and have i chosen to use that now i hope you don't mind. I will have to discuss about how to control them and about their strength with you guys and the OP. Besides, I thought the civic watch wears golden or gold-looking armor.

Edit: george produced a map of Essos and the dominion of Qarth is quite big. The cities of Qarkash and port Yhos, the island of Qal, the north of greater Moraq and they dominate the red waiste.

[Of the Quendi]

I think the offer to Missandei is a reasonable and fair one, if someone disagrees please tell methen I'll change it. As said in the post will I reform the Qartheen army to make it more suitable for war. About the demons, demons exist in the awoiaf, but they are not very specific. I took the beast on the flag of Meereen as example, Mordonin is a demon summoner and have i chosen to use that now i hope you don't mind. I will have to discuss about how to control them and about their strength with you guys and the OP. Besides, I thought the civic watch wears golden or gold-looking armor.

Edit: george produced a map of Essos and the dominion of Qarth is quite big. The cities of Qarkash and port Yhos, the island of Qal, the north of greater Moraq and they dominate the red waiste.

Meh, it will think some adjustments I think. I have more or less decided that I OOC'ly want to do this thing so I just need the proper IC reasons for it.

While I question Qarth's military might there is no denying its wealth. Qarth seems to be almost ridiculously wealthy. Xaro Xhoan Daxos's own personal wealth seem staggering. His palace is described as larger than a market town and making Illyrio Mopatis's manse look like a swine herders hovel. He showers Daenerys with gifts including a thousand knights made of gold and silver and precious stones. And he is just one merchant.

A one time payment of five million gold dragons and all the ships of the thirteen (with all the ships of the Spicers going to Mordonin and the Tourmalines) is more to my liking. A formidable sum and something that Mordonin's wallet would feel, but not too high a price for the Queen of Cities, and presumably there will be plenty of fortunes confiscated after the takeover. Ten warlocks and support from the Qartheen army (but also from its navy I would hope) is good. The demon thing will probably need OP approval. As for the annual tribute I would suggest that rather then paying a fixed sum Ghiscar get a percentage (25?) of the trade revenue of Qarth.

[Diliath]

I think the offer to Missandei is a reasonable and fair one, if someone disagrees please tell methen I'll change it. As said in the post will I reform the Qartheen army to make it more suitable for war. About the demons, demons exist in the awoiaf, but they are not very specific. I took the beast on the flag of Meereen as example, Mordonin is a demon summoner and have i chosen to use that now i hope you don't mind. I will have to discuss about how to control them and about their strength with you guys and the OP. Besides, I thought the civic watch wears golden or gold-looking armor.

Edit: george produced a map of Essos and the dominion of Qarth is quite big. The cities of Qarkash and port Yhos, the island of Qal, the north of greater Moraq and they dominate the red waiste.

Meh, it will think some adjustments I think. I have more or less decided that I OOC'ly want to do this thing so I just need the proper IC reasons for it.

While I question Qarth's military might there is no denying its wealth. Qarth seems to be almost ridiculously wealthy. Xaro Xhoan Daxos's own personal wealth seem staggering. His palace is described as larger than a market town and making Illyrio Mopatis's manse look like a swine herders hovel. He showers Daenerys with gifts including a thousand knights made of gold and silver and precious stones. And he is just one merchant.

A one time payment of five million gold dragons and all the ships of the thirteen (with all the ships of the Spicers going to Mordonin and the Tourmalines) is more to my liking. A formidable sum and something that Mordonin's wallet would feel, but not too high a price for the Queen of Cities, and presumably there will be plenty of fortunes confiscated after the takeover. Ten warlocks and support from the Qartheen army (but also from its navy I would hope) is good. The demon thing will probably need OP approval. As for the annual tribute I would suggest that rather then paying a fixed sum Ghiscar get a percentage (25?) of the trade revenue of Qarth.

I agree to all points except the annual percentage, because 25% is too much let's say 10%. Also do I give you half of the ships of the Thirteen. If you agree to this will I edit my post.

[Of the Quendi]

I agree to all points except the annual percentage, because 25% is too much let's say 10%. Also do I give you half of the ships of the Thirteen. If you agree to this will I edit my post.

25 % may be too high but 10 % is too low. 20 %.

[New Granadeseret]

It does fade if they're constantly exposed for a few days, but the Dothraki war stragey is one of quick attacks and raids: to be able to throw an entire Dothraki attack into disarray and unhorse a group of people used to fighting almost exclusively on horseback would mean any attack on them would be deadly. As Dothraki raids are the only threat their territory might face (Isolation and whatnot), and any group who has attacked them before isen't likely to do so again after getting cut down, that temporary fear would be all they'd need to defend their outlying territories (such as they are).

As for the ships, I do agree their navy would largely be a museum piece. However, its simply absurd to think they have no warships: the guilds are dependent on trade for their wealth (as is the city itself) and its a massive port city; they would have to be poor businessmen to realize that needs to be protected. The guilds combined command about 3000 ships; far surpassing anything Ghiscari could turn out, not including the war gallies of the Pureborn's fleet. The rise of the Pirate King and decline in the trade share of the Free Cities would only give them more reason to protect their merchants ships and more to lose if they were attacked. As for one single member

I see Qarth as something along the lines of 18th century Venice; certainly long past its prime but still able to put up a bit of a fight. The population issue is more one of force projection: Ghis forces marching on Qarth overland would be painfully costly, and there are only so many men you can take on ships. Xaro Xhoan Daxos personally commanding only merchant ships make perfect sense; the guilds as a collective would hardly tolerate infighting and personal wars between traders. I'd imagine the warship elements are commanded by the guilds themselves, to be dolled out as needed.

I imagine Qarth along the lines of Venice; her territory is small, but she has outposts EVERYWHERE, and the wealth and ties to call up tribal warriors and the household forces of her wealthy families in times of need. The Pureborn might not be perfect, but its certainly better than having to pay tribute and taxes to the Ghiscari, and the merchant houses know this (Besides being the sort of independently wealthy centers of power

As for the war, cities were crushed and looted, starvation rampant in the cities as the outlying estates refused to send in food, and the fighting age population of the area, mercenaries included, slaughtered while in the service off the other cities by an outnumbered force under Daenerys. The economy was in shambles since there was no organization and the orchard crop (pride of Ghiscari) trees should only have been baring fruit for 10 years tops. That's discounting the armies that were apparently tossed over to Westros when Aemon tried to retake his throne, which would have chewed up a chunk of those children who survived the great wars that unified Ghis. Crushing all opposition to your rule, particularly when the leaders you leave behind have a tendency to become Butcher Kings, is a bloody and costly process. We'd also have to add the Dothraki taking advantage of a good situation where the city walls are down, the people disorganized, and the majority of the men who could stop them from riding in and pillaging what's left are dead.

And, to be fair, its not like everywhere else in the world hasen't had to deal with those things either: its just that everything shoulden't be set up so Ghis is so powerful (relative to everyone else), Aemon world hegemony isen't a cakewalk. Westros is full of instability, the Free Cities divided and hamstrung by the Pirate King, the Summer Isles as pacifist as ever, and the Dothraki more a mess than anything else. Ghis ought not be a perfect place.

I am not saying camels are a bad choice for the Red Waste, they are the obvious choice for any conflict there. But they where a wrong choice for the siege of Meereen. Either the Qartheen don't know that and then their competence is in question, or they simply has no ordinary cavalry.

I never said they have no warships. They might very well have more of them then my Empire. But I don't think there fleet is the biggest in the world and the fact that its ships are described as being "ornate", combined with the fact that what we know of their army is that it wears very expensive and very outdated armor, that is a big red flag indicating that the Qartheen fleet isn't up to date. As for the idea that the merchant guilds have additional warships but that their members don't I find it unlikely. They are merchants not soldiers. If they need to fight someone they probably have to hire sellsails. Besides your argument that the guilds would oppose having the individual merchants own warships can also be used with respect to the Pureborn opposing the guild having warships.

As for force projection that isn't what we are discussing. I am well aware that I can't move the whole of my army through the Red Waste. But we are not discussing how many troops I can move to Qarth (on four hundred of the Tourmaline brotherhoods ships quite a few) we are talking about how many they can raise. Their population will determine that. And if their population is basically the population of a city plus a little bit more then that city could be gargantuan and it still wouldn't be a high total population. There is no mention in the books of there being any Qartheen outposts in the west, presumably there would have been if they had any. If they have none in the west they probably have none in the west.

Regarding the war only one city, Astapor is mentioned as having been crushed. The war was bloody and savage but lasted only two years and left large parts of my empire untouched. Since then thirty years of mostly peace has ensued. Plus the abolition of slavery would have led to a population boom as slaves suddenly get a chance of a life in prosperity. This combined with the replacement of the cruel, arbitrary and stagnant Ghiscari governments with a dynamic and competent one under Aemon would have allowed total replacement of casualties and quite possible an expansion of the population.

Ghis isn't perfect. But it is a centralized empire where most of the rest of the world is not. From an OOC standpoint we can argue whether this is fair or not but IC'ly its the facts of the situation. The Ghiscari Empire rules over a territory the size of that of the Roman Empire Qarth is an up jump city-state, the last remnant of a civilization that was destroyed by the Sarnori and the Dothraki. It is not likely that it can call on an army to match that of the Ghiscari Empire and its navy may be large but I am not convinced its stronger than those of Volantis or Braavos or that it can match the combined Westerosi navies in battle. That doesn't mean that world hegemony is just around the corner for Aemon. Having the largest military (and really I only RP it to be about 1.5 times the size of that of the Reach) doesn't guarantee hegemony.

I'll give you the camel thing on that note. Perhaps they have no horse cavalry but that is likely due to the fact horses are impractical for what campaigns they were expecting to fight; either having to transport by boat (in which case horses are less than practical due to their temperament and supply requirements), into the Red Wastes (where the horses wouldn't have the food or water they need), or fighting against the Dothraki (Whom they can't hope to beat with cavalry skills, and the chaos of having camel-scent causing a group's horses to spook and drop them from their saddle allowing them to neutralize any first advance, and scaring way the superstitious and horse-dependent tribes from attacking again, rendering their horses getting use to the scent after enough exposures irrelevant). They simply have no area in their strategy where horses would be the superior mount. They not having horse cavalry is no different that the North not having camels; its an extra expense for no added benefit.

The Pureborn simply can't stop the guilds, who are powerful enough to jostle for influence with them and who the Pureborn would know they are dependent on for their city's wealth. The difference in power of an individual guild member vs. the power of the guild as a whole is a much more greater than the Pureborn vs. The Guild of Spicers, The Thirteen, and the Tourmaline Brotherhood acting in unison (to promote their own interests as well as the interest of the community; the three acting together are likely even more powerful than the government. Even if they aren't constructed officially as warships, the guilds would have to be utterly daft in order for not be arming their merchants for inevitable pirate attacks against Qarth's valuable and exotic cargo. That many ships and that many sailors, organized in defense of Qarth's merchantile economy. Also, I fail to see why rebellion against the Pureborn would be popular; they have raw, ancient legitimacy, aren't corrupt and hording the city's wealth (It is stated, after all, they spend much of what they collect running the city, so they're clearly at least a competent civil government), and allows the guilds a great deal of autonomy and allow them to grow fabulously wealth. Taking on a large tax to the heart of their economy woulden't fan out well with anybody.

I meant that they were stronger in the east and the south. The Free Cities dominate things in the West, so there isen't much space for them to squeeze into.

Astapor would have been a complete wreck by the time the war was over: the Unsullied slaughtered anybody who knew anything about running an economy and threw the city's production into disarray. Cleon re-instated slavery and threw the city into even worse strife and essentially civil war by enslaving everybody who haden't been a slave before; something I'd imagine the former slaves would see as due justice and rather enjoy. The city was than sacked and burned for a second time in less than a year by Yunkai's armies, slaughtering the citizens and the Cutthroat King. 3/4 of her remaining population died of the flux, many more poisoned themselves to avoid being captured, and the rest are living in a city on fire, flattened, and riddled with illness (Those who fled the city spreading it to the countryside). We're talking essentially omnicide of a city here, and the rural population have no reason to come in even assuming they want to; the outside estates still be largely under the control of the Masters in their estates and reactionary rural peasants. For all intents and purposes, that city is dead, what areas of the countryside remain filled with the Flux and not having the proper knowledge to treat it, or supported/ were ravaged by Yunkai and New Ghis Legions on their way through. That is a demographic collapse you can't recover from in a generation, so one of the three great Slaver cities down.

Yunkai got away from the initial attack just fine, true: but as the fact it rebelled and went back to its old ways right after Daenerys left though shows the Masters aren't exactly keen of giving up their rule. She'll have to do what she did in Astapor; head in, slaughter the Masters, and pray another Cleon don't rear its ugly head. To do so, she must first make her way out of the Siege of Meereen. That city is in economic ruin, as a reading of A Dance with Dragons makes very clear: trade (one of the city's lifebloods) has all but ceased, the people inside are starving and can't sort out their labor, the area around the city was scorched before Daenerys came in, and many children dead. Releasing the pitfighters and letting them run amock throughout the city clearly didn't help, and what economic activity still does exist was largely in the hands of the slave-holding estates in the hitherlands; which would resist any attempt to take them down. That's not counting what damage the Sons of the Harpy and the battle that gets her out of Meereen does: the armies around her from all the cities of Slaver's Bay, and (imagine that) containing quite a chunk of the fighting and working age men of the region. Such a battle, even if Daenerys won, would be painfully costly to her city as well as the enemy armies (Which need to be cut down if the degree of centralization proposed is to take place). The only way she's getting anywhere is with dragonfire, but that would cause Meereen to catch alight too, as well as killing many of her future subjects. Meereen is going to be painfully damaged, both population-wise by starvation and battle at least (Add on fire and illness) and economically as all her old trade links are destroyed and her economic productivity collapses (When scortched-earth tactics expand to the outer estates to prevent their seizure), that it's hardly going to be a powerhouse either; Meereen is toast too, though better then Astapor.

Yunkai, as I've already touched upon, is now the target of vengeful Meereenian warriors, and will no doubt suffer terrible economic problems (as Astapor and Meereen did) from the abolition of slavery. If their armies are just driven from the walls of Meereen rather than burned to death, than they can scorch earth Daeny's route to Yunkai and will force her to make another decisive battle there. No bribing the sellswords this time (Since she's basically broke, and they slavers of caught wind of her turn-their-men-against-them tactics), which means either burning the city in dragonfire (indiscriminate and massive death), or beating the Yunkai in yet another large battle with major casulties (Men are getting aweful hard to find in Slaver's Bay by this point, particularly ones with reproductive organs still attached), and a number of hungry, vengeful soldiers looting the city to the ground (with the same results as burning the city; we're talking 4th Crusader levels of frustration). Without a siege, Yunkai would arguably get the best out of the lot, but still highly damanged with a depopulated hitherlands, mostly of old men, women, and some children (who aren't exactly going to be working economic miracles). And don't think a baby boom is going to help either; how do you plan on feeding all the young children with limited labor, destroyed farmland, most of the beasts of burden dead, and your level of technology?

Even than, she controls the east side of Slaver's Bay... what of it? New Ghis, the Isle of Ceders, and the north remain untouched which means; you guessed it, more warfare. Those aren't even considered great cities; small potatos compared to Astapor, Yunkai, and Meereen, so if they come out less damaged you're still facing huge loses. You also have to deal with Dothraki raids; who've probably heard of the weakness of the area (Westros and the Free Cities hear about it even during the Siege and stop sending ships, and the Dothraki do stop by to sell slaves frequently) and are imagining plunder. With so few men left to stop them, the outlying areas to the north-east would be field day (Daeny is basically out of cavalry), so its not like she can chase them, which likely explains how the outlying estates are weakened enough that she can take them. These combined, result in a ruined economy, French WW I levels of demographic collapse (and that's very generous) and security needs eating up the majority of what resources they can get. These conditions don't produce prosperity; they produce economic stagnation are best. I'm not just talking OOC: IC there is NO realistic way such centralization occurred without earth-shattering bloodshed and a painfully stunted economy.

The reforms would help, but I fail to see how less than 30 years later things are lollipops and rainbows. What are you going to build your new economy off of? Your agriculture is wrecked, so prices for food are going be high and, thanks to much cheaper products from the Free and Slaver cities who have living skilled craftsmen without permanent bodily damage, local laborers will barely be able to keep body and soul together despite that being exactly what you need to rebuild yourself into some semblance of a centralized civilization. You could try brutal forced labor (as they did in Meereen), but that's just going to lead to further declining in your population. Then you have to deal with farmers who are ticked off you're trying to 'tax' their harvest to pay those working to build the cities, roads, ect. needed for your nation, which leads to more repression and more death and more resistance to your rule that has to be removed. Its ugly no matter what way you slice it. Leaving it to float to the merchents (remember, you killed most of your domestic ones, so they're forgein) will lead to chaos, since you nobody domestic knows much about finance, or has the connections to avoid explotation due to you having killed the Masters. The tarrifs slapped on Westros and the resulting counter-tarrifs on Ghis aren't exactly building your market. Also, remember Daeny is living in King's Landing during that point, so she's not exactly there to keep personal command.

A good analogy for this would be Haiti combined with the economic wreckage of the South after the American Civil War. Free labor doesn't nessicerly produce and economic boom. Your markets are gone and your people have no idea how to handle free labor

[Asyir]

Im in an area with little internet. Will post later.

[Arana]

Okay guys, I have a big post coming up with Aerion, Viserys, Raven, Areo, some minor priest in Volantis, a spy guy, and multiple letters. Should be up either tonight or tomorrow.

When should we skip to the tournament?