Westeros: Rise of a King (Dead)

[Novae Vitae]

Very poetic no?

... Because he is. He is the son of Daenerys Targaryen and a man she was not lawfully wed to; hence he is a bastard.

A legitimized bastard. Hence the name Viserys Targaryen rather than Viserys Waters.

Oh, even more reason for Jon to have wanted Daenerys dead!

Well I shall not assume to understand the OP perfectly, Aemon's age is clearly stated there--until such time as it is updated, I must defer to it. And there was a war, but ended, as described in the OP, as "inconclusively." The amount of time it would have required Aemon to go from Ghiscar to Westeros would be such that it would almost be pointless for him to have engaged in warfare at all--indeed, it is clearly specified in the OP that he did not.

No, he has no need to answer questions--but how incredibly stupid he shall look. And your dialogue--well demeaning the position of literally every lord in Westeros except Aerion--did not even answer the question. I shall reiterate the question: "Do you believe you are the rightful king of Westeros?" If Aemon attempted such a dialogue in King's Landing, hypothetically, this would be Loras's swift reply:

"Convincing, my lord, convincing indeed. Not only have you totally ignored my question, but you have insulted every person living in all of Westeros with the exception of His Grace. How stunning is your rhetoric." I should think therein Aemon will be severely demeaned.

Loras has explained to Aerion that Sansa is rebellious; and that if they seize Sansa, several lords will rebel and Aemon will conquer Westeros. Therefore, by proxy, the death or seizure of Aemon allows for the arrest and execution of Sansa.

And since a dragon will likely be guarding the Ghiscari fleet, the point is somewhat mute. We can continue the point of naval invasion if you want to continue, however.

And I prefer to think of this as a friendly debate. Have a good holiday; until . . . the next few days, I suppose.

The OP has Aemon's birth set at 302 here.

I don't think he will look stupid and he does answer the question. He says that there are outstanding issues that need to be resolved and admonishes house Tyrell for getting ideas above its station. The lords of Westeros are not going to be so foolish as to consider an admonishment of House Tyrell a more general criticism of all houses. That would be ridiculous.

Alright it makes sense then to link Sansa to Aemon, but if Aerion believes that a sizable amount of lords will rise up for Aemon getting a peaceful settlement with his brother is far preferable to making a martyr and kickstarting such a rising. Besides even if Aerion accepts that killing his older brother would strengthen his own rule he still has no quarrel with Aemon by the Tyrell story. And there is always the small matter of kinslaying.

I don't think discussing an invasion makes much sense at this point. A return of Aemon will have to be precipitated by a uprising in Westeros itself and discussing a out of the blue invasion makes little sense.

Fair enough; I'll concede the point of Aemon's age.

No, he does look quite foolish if he dodges a question--we see time and time again that it's a very commonplace thing for rulers in Westeros to make pointed questions against their "betters" with the expectation that the question be answered. Further, I should think that the lord would have to be very thick to not see the insult Aemon made against everyone in the room except Aerion. House Tyrell is literally the most powerful House man-for-man in the Seven Kingdoms. Unless you speak to House Tyrell from the perspective of wealth or perhaps age, there is no station that can be inhabited by another House of the Seven Kingdoms (save Targaryen) that House Tyrell cannot occupy. Ergo, you're literally telling every other House in the Seven Kingdoms that they aren't worthy of you. And for those especially thick lords that don't realize, Loras would do well to emphasize that point.

If Aemon is seized and executed than the imminent Arryn-Stark-Tully rebellion won't have enough power to overthrow the Tyrell-Lannister-Targaryen faction. It would go far to strengthen Aerion's reign, actually, than to harm it--assuming he wins, of course. And, as to the matter of kinslaying . . . it might be simpler that Aemon died in the night of a "sickness", and was not executed.

I further concede the point of a hypothetical invasion. It is rather mute.

[Legatia]

Is my app on hold or something?

[Arana]

Is my app on hold or something?

Sorry, been busy. You're good.

[Of the Quendi]

A legitimized bastard. Hence the name Viserys Targaryen rather than Viserys Waters.

Legitimized by who?

I think you're taking it too literally... the First Daughter of Valyria is likely Volantis, and the Last Son possibly Aemon or his empire.

Quite. It was a way of indicating that Aemon might have wider ambitions then simply ruling Slaver's Bay and that Volantis could potentially be part of these ambitions. A pun on the fact that Aemon has named his consorts queens of every major city of his empire (except New Ghis, the heir apparent's title) as well I suppose. It had nothing to do with Desirhae.

Fair enough; I'll concede the point of Aemon's age.

No, he does look quite foolish if he dodges a question--we see time and time again that it's a very commonplace thing for rulers in Westeros to make pointed questions against their "betters" with the expectation that the question be answered. Further, I should think that the lord would have to be very thick to not see the insult Aemon made against everyone in the room except Aerion. House Tyrell is literally the most powerful House man-for-man in the Seven Kingdoms. Unless you speak to House Tyrell from the perspective of wealth or perhaps age, there is no station that can be inhabited by another House of the Seven Kingdoms (save Targaryen) that House Tyrell cannot occupy. Ergo, you're literally telling every other House in the Seven Kingdoms that they aren't worthy of you. And for those especially thick lords that don't realize, Loras would do well to emphasize that point.

If Aemon is seized and executed than the imminent Arryn-Stark-Tully rebellion won't have enough power to overthrow the Tyrell-Lannister-Targaryen faction. It would go far to strengthen Aerion's reign, actually, than to harm it--assuming he wins, of course. And, as to the matter of kinslaying . . . it might be simpler that Aemon died in the night of a "sickness", and was not executed.

I further concede the point of a hypothetical invasion. It is rather mute.

No he doesn't, and the distinction between Aemon shaming House Tyrell, a house that is so poor in honor and dignity as it is rich in power, which he has amble reason to hate and which is guilty of rebellion and regicide and shaming all the great lords would be glaringly obvious to everyone. But it seems pointless to continue this argument.

[Legatia]

So before I post, may I ask for a tl;dr of what's gone on so far? Where should I start?

[Yngen]

Quick question, what kind of figures are the Boltons able to command?
I imagine it to be a couple of thousand at most, given the figures from the books etc, assuming we're still working off rough book figures. For example, the entire northern army in the books was 20-25k and Roose was one of the most powerful lords along with the Umbers, Karstarks, and the Starks. The combined forces of the Reach and Dragonstone were about 100k or something (?) which was noted as being a vast and impressive number. Blackwater Bay involved maybe 100k across both sides (including the relieving reinforcements led by Tywin and Loras) and that included Lannisters, Tyrells, Dragonstone, AND the garrison of King's Landing.

[Novae Vitae]

Quick question, what kind of figures are the Boltons able to command?
I imagine it to be a couple of thousand at most, given the figures from the books etc, assuming we're still working off rough book figures. For example, the entire northern army in the books was 20-25k and Roose was one of the most powerful lords along with the Umbers, Karstarks, and the Starks. The combined forces of the Reach and Dragonstone were about 100k or something (?) which was noted as being a vast and impressive number. Blackwater Bay involved maybe 100k across both sides (including the relieving reinforcements led by Tywin and Loras) and that included Lannisters, Tyrells, Dragonstone, AND the garrison of King's Landing.

It's been noted that the North didn't raise it's full might for logistical reasons when it marched south. Also, the Reach didn't throw it's full power into supporting Renly. The North can raise between 40k-50k men, and the Boltons, as I understand, are the Stark's most powerful vassal. I'd think that the Boltons could field about four thousand men, but their levy to their liege would probably be closer to two thousand.

[Of the Quendi]

It's been noted that the North didn't raise it's full might for logistical reasons when it marched south. Also, the Reach didn't throw it's full power into supporting Renly. The North can raise between 40k-50k men, and the Boltons, as I understand, are the Stark's most powerful vassal. I'd think that the Boltons could field about four thousand men, but their levy to their liege would probably be closer to two thousand.

3-4,000 I would say. My guess would be that they are the third strongest house in the North behind Stark and Manderly. With 3,000 they would probably just be first among equals among the Stark vassals (minus Manderly) and with the later they would be a clear number three, challenging the Manderly's.

[New Granadeseret]

1. I don't disagree. But the vast majority of Targaryen aligned houses (including all the major ones) was at best lightly punished.

2. I am not sure I agree it would be wise to try to remove Aerion from the succession. Most houses probably didn't support the Tyrell coup. The Stark-Tully-Arryn alliance presumably opposed it due to their close ties to King Jon. House Martell probably opposed it because the Tyrell's (and Lannister's) supported it, and obviously Aemon. By not removing Aemon from the succession the Tyrell's would allow for a theoretical (and in the early years of an infant Aerion's reign highly likely) chance of restoring Aemon to the throne giving those houses, and Aemon himself less reasons to try to restore Aemon by force. By removing Aemon from the succession these houses would need to revolt to restore him. The only advantage of removing Aemon would be that if Aerion dies he doesn't become king. But if Aerion dies the Tyrell's would be fucked and almost certainly have to fight a war anyway since they would have no one to place on the throne.

Out of interest on whose side is House Swann?

1. Lightly punished yes... but enough to send out a warning that if they tried anything funny, King's Landing wouldn't be so merciful next time.

2. With Aemon's new age taken into account, he'd certainly be able to understand what was going on. Having his parents; the King and Queen of Westros, no less, dragged out of the castle and beheaded in cold blood, would be enough to fill almost any boy with heavy thoughts of revenge. The Tyrells have everything to lose and nothing to gain from seeing a boy out for blood against them sitting on the Iron Throne. I think we need the OP to weight in on this, because character motivations are impossible to predict otherwise.

Steffon's father and instructors beat the idea he should be very, very suspicious of those of other houses coming to him asking for alliance or aid. Taking big risks in general is something he isen't comfortable with. I would say Storm's End is neutral, afraid to dedicate themselves to either side, but his sense of duty and Loras's charm causes them to lean ever so slightly towards Aerion's faction. Aemon has done nothing to earn his trust.

Also, for clarity, its Baratheon-Swann. House Swann went extinct after Donnel (their heir) married into House Baratheon (matrilineally, since he's marrying his liege lord and a princess), so we hold both Storm's End and Stonehelm.

[Of the Quendi]

2. With Aemon's new age taken into account, he'd certainly be able to understand what was going on. Having his parents; the King and Queen of Westros, no less, dragged out of the castle and beheaded in cold blood, would be enough to fill almost any boy with heavy thoughts of revenge. The Tyrells have everything to lose and nothing to gain from seeing a boy out for blood against them sitting on the Iron Throne. I think we need the OP to weight in on this, because character motivations are impossible to predict otherwise.

Steffon's father and instructors beat the idea he should be very, very suspicious of those of other houses coming to him asking for alliance or aid. Taking big risks in general is something he isen't comfortable with. I would say Storm's End is neutral, afraid to dedicate themselves to either side, but his sense of duty and Loras's charm causes them to lean ever so slightly towards Aerion's faction. Aemon has done nothing to earn his trust.

Also, for clarity, its Baratheon-Swann. House Swann went extinct after Donnel (their heir) married into House Baratheon (matrilineally, since he's marrying his liege lord and a princess), so we hold both Storm's End and Stonehelm.

You are missing my point entirely. If Aerion dies House Tyrell will have to fight a war against Aemon and allies regardless of whether or not they removed him from the succession and in that case the war will determine who sits the Iron Throne. By removing him from the succession they therefore gain no advantage but only risk to further anger his supporters in Westeros.

Paradox Interactive shall burn in hell for a thousand years for inventing so utterly absurd a notion as "matrilineal marriage". It never existed in RL medieval Europe and there is no reason to believe that Westeros is any different. As House Baratheon is of course a good example of. If you are absolutely determined to retain the Baratheon name I suppose I will turn a blind eye to the silliness of the concept of a matrilineal marriage. But I won't like it.

[New Granadeseret]

2. With Aemon's new age taken into account, he'd certainly be able to understand what was going on. Having his parents; the King and Queen of Westros, no less, dragged out of the castle and beheaded in cold blood, would be enough to fill almost any boy with heavy thoughts of revenge. The Tyrells have everything to lose and nothing to gain from seeing a boy out for blood against them sitting on the Iron Throne. I think we need the OP to weight in on this, because character motivations are impossible to predict otherwise.

Steffon's father and instructors beat the idea he should be very, very suspicious of those of other houses coming to him asking for alliance or aid. Taking big risks in general is something he isen't comfortable with. I would say Storm's End is neutral, afraid to dedicate themselves to either side, but his sense of duty and Loras's charm causes them to lean ever so slightly towards Aerion's faction. Aemon has done nothing to earn his trust.

Also, for clarity, its Baratheon-Swann. House Swann went extinct after Donnel (their heir) married into House Baratheon (matrilineally, since he's marrying his liege lord and a princess), so we hold both Storm's End and Stonehelm.

You are missing my point entirely. If Aerion dies House Tyrell will have to fight a war against Aemon and allies regardless of whether or not they removed him from the succession and in that case the war will determine who sits the Iron Throne. By removing him from the succession they therefore gain no advantage but only risk to further anger his supporters in Westeros.

Paradox Interactive shall burn in hell for a thousand years for inventing so utterly absurd a notion as "matrilineal marriage". It never existed in RL medieval Europe and there is no reason to believe that Westeros is any different. As House Baratheon is of course a good example of. If you are absolutely determined to retain the Baratheon name I suppose I will turn a blind eye to the silliness of the concept of a matrilineal marriage. But I won't like it.

Well, women didn't have claims to thrones in their own right to any respectable extent either, yet Daenerys had one none the less, as you yourself argued. Also, the Baratheon name going extinct would be a very, very big deal; having ruled over the Stormlands since Aegon's day, and carrying the blood of the Storm Kings who ruled it before, and having been the name of the last two kings. Considering, as vassals, House Swann would have to take whatever terms Shireen's court put in front of them to marry her, in the extenuating circumstances a mere hyphenation would certainly be acceptable.

Besides, in this word we also have the example of Dorne, which probably eases things somewhat.

[New Granadeseret]

Also, if intrigue in the night is going to continue for awhile, would Loron be interested in paying a visit? There is little we can pull off alone, and I'd rather not just twiddle my thumbs waiting for all of these things to pass. He did mention he wanted to 'size up' Steffon earlier, I believe.

[Toronina]

Hmm, who can I interact with?

[Arana]

Huh... didn't see that coming.

[Novae Vitae]

Hmm, who can I interact with?

Loras and Olyvar. Come interact with Loras and Olyvar.

Huh... didn't see that coming.

Good. That was the goal.

[Arana]

Hmm, who can I interact with?

Loras and Olyvar. Come interact with Loras and Olyvar.

Huh... didn't see that coming.

Good. That was the goal.

And now Aerion walks in for some more advice, and finds something very different than what he came for...

[Novae Vitae]

Loras and Olyvar. Come interact with Loras and Olyvar.



Good. That was the goal.

And now Aerion walks in for some more advice, and finds something very different than what he came for...

Loras can give visual advice this time.

[New Granadeseret]

Well... alright then.

Anyways, Arana, to avoid too much written smexy time, perhaps we should jump ahead to the next day?

[Novae Vitae]

Well... alright then.

Anyways, Arana, to avoid too much written smexy time, perhaps we should jump ahead to the next day?

I'm dying right now. Just . . . dying.

If it gets much further than kissing, the power of vague, implicative language will come to hand.

[New Granadeseret]

Well... alright then.

Anyways, Arana, to avoid too much written smexy time, perhaps we should jump ahead to the next day?

I'm dying right now. Just . . . dying.

If it gets much further than kissing, the power of vague, implicative language will come to hand.

Very well. I just don't know how far you can get away with on these forums, and I'd rather not see our thread taken down due to excess smexiness.

It must, however, be balanced out later by the feminine brand of smexy time.

[Novae Vitae]

I'm dying right now. Just . . . dying.

If it gets much further than kissing, the power of vague, implicative language will come to hand.

Very well. I just don't know how far you can get away with on these forums, and I'd rather not see our thread taken down due to excess smexiness.

It must, however, be balanced out later by the feminine brand of smexy time.

That would be both incredibly regrettable and asinine. Violence is clearly permissible, but attraction is not? But no, this is not a debate forum--I rant.

And yes, some female smexy time should look nicely here.

[Toronina]

Man on man going on? I must watch this closely. For research of course.

[Of the Quendi]

Lord Sebasion Iranassar,
Free City of Pentos

---

Snip

You are aware that Lys has been conquered by Area Cithien and that Pentos is preparing to go to war with him right? Your post seem to suggest that your character is either ignorant or indifferent to this which might be a little weird.

[Sebastianbourg]

Lord Sebasion Iranassar,
Free City of Pentos

---

Snip

You are aware that Lys has been conquered by Area Cithien and that Pentos is preparing to go to war with him right? Your post seem to suggest that your character is either ignorant or indifferent to this which might be a little weird.

He is ignorant of it since he has been caring for his sickly grand-uncle. In my next post he'll discover what's happening.

[Aurinsula]

Man on man going on? I must watch this closely. For research of course.

Are you a straight woman, or homosexual?