Lord of the Rings: Naught but Ashes [OOC/Open/LOTR RP]

[The Starlight]

Made of cinnabar.

Obs.

Oh, Shaggai, would you be interesting in dominion over the Grey Mountains for the Spiders?

Sure. Also, could we add a map to the OP? I'm getting a bit confused about what to do, since I don't know where much is and I don't have the early goal of conquering the Elves.

I'm almost finished with the map.

[The Starlight]

So this thread grabbed my attention since I adore the forces of evil in LotR, but apparently Saruman has been promoted to King of Nowhere and every other villain is blindly loyal to the Dark Lord, not to mention taken...

So I've come up with two interesting scenarios.

In the North, beyond the Barrow-downs in the lands once known as Angmar, evil scattered for one thousand years has begun to re-emerge. Sauron has sent lieutenants to Carn Dûm, former seat to the Witch-King's vast army during his war on Arnor, to rally the northern Orcs, Wild-men, and other evil peoples prepared to bow to the Dark Lord, in order to open an new front with the Free Peoples. But an unexpected crisis has shocked the upstart realm, as ancient evils, dating back to the time of Morgoth, have crossed into Angmar from the frozen lands of Forodwaith, claiming to have fled the destruction of Angband in the First Age. Amongst them are the descendants of Draugluin and the lady Thuringwethil, the Werewolves and the Vampires, as well as their host of 'snow-orcs', who lived in the cold North since the destruction of their ancient master in the First Age. Compelled now to travel South, these outsiders comprise a volatile faction in the Legions of Angmar, the Dark Lord unsure of whether to trust his new-found allies.

Or, alternately...

The fall from grace of Saruman of Many Colours, most powerful of the Istari, came quickly and suddenly. The destruction of Helms Deep, the scouring of Rohan, the continued loyalty of the Dunlendings and the rapid growth of Isengard's military capacity under Saruman's watchful eye promised a glorious future for the Army of the White Hand. However, Sauron could never be sure of the loyalty Saruman, the same wizard who had already turned on the Free Peoples and possessed power significant enough to tip the scales in Sauron's continued conflict. Sent South as an envoy to Harad, Saruman was made a bit-player and had his position as Lord of Orthanc filled by his main political rival for Sauron's favour, the Witch-King of Angmar. The Uruk-Hai legions bred along the Isen were transferred to various legions under the Witch-Kings umbrella of control. However, the armies bred by Saruman had become not only an efficient fighting force, but had quickly forged an identity for themselves. Bred stronger and more intelligent than the lowly Orcs and Goblins of Mordor and Moria, the Uruk-Hai were not as inclined to bow to the Dark Lord out of blind fear as their lesser cousins did. Whilst most of Isengard's legions did not care for whom they served, provided man-flesh was provided at the end of the day, the Uruk-Hai Lurtz, Saruman's former second-in-command and field commander of Isengard's vast armies, found issue with the rule of the Witch-King. The Ringwraith very quickly replaced the Uruk-Hai commanding caste with other Nazgûl, further disenchanting the first and most intelligent of the Isengard Uruk-Hai. Soon the Ringwraiths allowed their attention to move on from the glories of Rohan's conquest and marched their armies onwards, in aid of the Dark Lord Sauron's continued war effort. But Lurtz did not accompany them. Instead he led the Uruk-Hai Scouts, formerly Saruman's elite front-line infantry, along with any who would follow him, South into the land of Gondor. Carrying the Mark of the White Hand, Lurtz and the Scouts seek out their true master, Saruman, and will not stop their long march until the wizard that gave them life is restored to glory.

I really like the first one, and if you would like to be either Saruman and/or his legion, go ahead and make an app. The second one seems a bit dubious to me, about how they would've been able to escape the destruction of Angband, but I'll collect opinions and we'll see.

[The Starlight]

For some reason, the colors muted a bit, but oh well:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8jmortgh6ahqk21/Middle-Earth%20Map.jpg?dl=0

[G-Tech Corporation]

Erm, that's a bit of a misinterpretation of what Uruks are though; Tolkien actually had Saurin as their creator, while Saruman created goblin-men, not Uruk-Hai. If anything Uruks are more prominent in position under Sauron than Saruman, as Sauron's armies were directed by Orcs and Uruk commanders, while Saruman's were led by creatures that are as much man as Orc.

Mind, that's just my interpretation of matters. I can say definitively that most Nazgul aren't commandeers, but rather warriors, and Uruks lead the Orc-hosts of Mordor.

[Shaggai]

Spiders are purple, yes?

[Delsola]

So this thread grabbed my attention since I adore the forces of evil in LotR, but apparently Saruman has been promoted to King of Nowhere and every other villain is blindly loyal to the Dark Lord, not to mention taken...

So I've come up with two interesting scenarios.

In the North, beyond the Barrow-downs in the lands once known as Angmar, evil scattered for one thousand years has begun to re-emerge. Sauron has sent lieutenants to Carn Dûm, former seat to the Witch-King's vast army during his war on Arnor, to rally the northern Orcs, Wild-men, and other evil peoples prepared to bow to the Dark Lord, in order to open an new front with the Free Peoples. But an unexpected crisis has shocked the upstart realm, as ancient evils, dating back to the time of Morgoth, have crossed into Angmar from the frozen lands of Forodwaith, claiming to have fled the destruction of Angband in the First Age. Amongst them are the descendants of Draugluin and the lady Thuringwethil, the Werewolves and the Vampires, as well as their host of 'snow-orcs', who lived in the cold North since the destruction of their ancient master in the First Age. Compelled now to travel South, these outsiders comprise a volatile faction in the Legions of Angmar, the Dark Lord unsure of whether to trust his new-found allies.

Or, alternately...

The fall from grace of Saruman of Many Colours, most powerful of the Istari, came quickly and suddenly. The destruction of Helms Deep, the scouring of Rohan, the continued loyalty of the Dunlendings and the rapid growth of Isengard's military capacity under Saruman's watchful eye promised a glorious future for the Army of the White Hand. However, Sauron could never be sure of the loyalty Saruman, the same wizard who had already turned on the Free Peoples and possessed power significant enough to tip the scales in Sauron's continued conflict. Sent South as an envoy to Harad, Saruman was made a bit-player and had his position as Lord of Orthanc filled by his main political rival for Sauron's favour, the Witch-King of Angmar. The Uruk-Hai legions bred along the Isen were transferred to various legions under the Witch-Kings umbrella of control. However, the armies bred by Saruman had become not only an efficient fighting force, but had quickly forged an identity for themselves. Bred stronger and more intelligent than the lowly Orcs and Goblins of Mordor and Moria, the Uruk-Hai were not as inclined to bow to the Dark Lord out of blind fear as their lesser cousins did. Whilst most of Isengard's legions did not care for whom they served, provided man-flesh was provided at the end of the day, the Uruk-Hai Lurtz, Saruman's former second-in-command and field commander of Isengard's vast armies, found issue with the rule of the Witch-King. The Ringwraith very quickly replaced the Uruk-Hai commanding caste with other Nazgûl, further disenchanting the first and most intelligent of the Isengard Uruk-Hai. Soon the Ringwraiths allowed their attention to move on from the glories of Rohan's conquest and marched their armies onwards, in aid of the Dark Lord Sauron's continued war effort. But Lurtz did not accompany them. Instead he led the Uruk-Hai Scouts, formerly Saruman's elite front-line infantry, along with any who would follow him, South into the land of Gondor. Carrying the Mark of the White Hand, Lurtz and the Scouts seek out their true master, Saruman, and will not stop their long march until the wizard that gave them life is restored to glory.

I really like the first one, and if you would like to be either Saruman and/or his legion, go ahead and make an app. The second one seems a bit dubious to me, about how they would've been able to escape the destruction of Angband, but I'll collect opinions and we'll see.

The escapees wouldn't be made up of any significant leaders from the War of Wrath, rather just groups that have formed communities in the furthest North comprised of ancient evils not seen in the West for many centuries. Gandalf makes reference to werewolves existing into the Third Age and vampires are referenced more indirectly a few times as well as being featured in some extended universe material (i.e video games and Games Workshop miniatures), as well as orcish subjects who would have accompanied them. It's not an unprecedented occurrence, since Durin's Bane was a Balrog of Angband, the Watcher in the Water was said to be from the time of Morgoth and Shelob is the last daughter of the ancient Ungoliant, who accompanied Melkor in stealing the Simarils. Don't think I'm trying to bring back Gothmog or something

[Delsola]

Erm, that's a bit of a misinterpretation of what Uruks are though; Tolkien actually had Saurin as their creator, while Saruman created goblin-men, not Uruk-Hai. If anything Uruks are more prominent in position under Sauron than Saruman, as Sauron's armies were directed by Orcs and Uruk commanders, while Saruman's were led by creatures that are as much man as Orc.

Mind, that's just my interpretation of matters. I can say definitively that most Nazgul aren't commandeers, but rather warriors, and Uruks lead the Orc-hosts of Mordor.

See, the specifics of the Uruks, Orcs, Goblins, Goblin-Men and the like has always been open to interpretation. Certainly Sauron created the first Uruk-Hai, but his army still employed an overwhelming majority of Orcs, who are in some cases led by Black Uruks, who originate long before the birth of the Isengard Uruk-Hai and are almost a completely separate subgroup of orc. Meanwhile, Saruman's army was practically entirely Uruk-Hai, and in the process of birthing the army Saruman made improvements to their make-up, distinguishing Isengard Uruk-Hai from Mordor Uruk-Hai.

Goblin-men/Half-orcs meanwhile, were primarily utilised as spies and led neither army. They are referenced as part of the experiments carried out by Saruman, but it should be affirmed that Uruk-Hai are not half-orcs.

And by commanders, I meant the Nazgûl are strategic, campaign-spanning figureheads and leaders. Certainly Orcs and Uruks will lead Sauron's armies, but ultimately those under the Witch King's theatres will report back to Nazgûl, just as those under the Mouth of Sauron's theatre will report to the Mouths trusted lieutenants.

[The Starlight]

Spiders are purple, yes?

Yes.

The escapees wouldn't be made up of any significant leaders from the War of Wrath, rather just groups that have formed communities in the furthest North comprised of ancient evils not seen in the West for many centuries. Gandalf makes reference to werewolves existing into the Third Age and vampires are referenced more indirectly a few times as well as being featured in some extended universe material (i.e video games and Games Workshop miniatures), as well as orcish subjects who would have accompanied them. It's not an unprecedented occurrence, since Durin's Bane was a Balrog of Angband, the Watcher in the Water was said to be from the time of Morgoth and Shelob is the last daughter of the ancient Ungoliant, who accompanied Melkor in stealing the Simarils. Don't think I'm trying to bring back Gothmog or something

Ok then. But no vampires or werewolves, don't want to turn this into one of those RPs.

[Old Tyrannia]

I've just realised that I've based my created eagle characters' names, Úrindaiwë and Urimëhér, on Quenya, whilst the canonical eagle characters' names are all derived from Sindarin. Oops. Wrong elven language.

Ok then. But no vampires or werewolves, don't want to turn this into one of those RPs.

Tolkien's vampires and werewolves share virtually nothing with pop culture vampires and werewolves besides their names, IIRC.

[The black lands of Mordor]

Back everyone. Did I miss anything important?

[The Starlight]

I've just realised that I've based my created eagle characters' names, Úrindaiwë and Urimëhér, on Quenya, whilst the canonical eagle characters' names are all derived from Sindarin. Oops. Wrong elven language.

Ok then. But no vampires or werewolves, don't want to turn this into one of those RPs.

Tolkien's vampires and werewolves share virtually nothing with pop culture vampires and werewolves besides their names, IIRC.

Still, I'm a bit suspicious, but I'll do some research.
Edit: So vampires in the Tolkienuniverse are basically big bats, and now I remember the werewolf, from the Silmarillion, Carcharoth.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Back everyone. Did I miss anything important?

The Witch King of Angmar has been lured into the deep caverns of the Misty Mountains and sealed there. It will take him about a hundred years to chisel his way out of that. Also, I put a spell on him that he needs to breathe air. GG.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Erm, that's a bit of a misinterpretation of what Uruks are though; Tolkien actually had Saurin as their creator, while Saruman created goblin-men, not Uruk-Hai. If anything Uruks are more prominent in position under Sauron than Saruman, as Sauron's armies were directed by Orcs and Uruk commanders, while Saruman's were led by creatures that are as much man as Orc.

Mind, that's just my interpretation of matters. I can say definitively that most Nazgul aren't commandeers, but rather warriors, and Uruks lead the Orc-hosts of Mordor.

See, the specifics of the Uruks, Orcs, Goblins, Goblin-Men and the like has always been open to interpretation. Certainly Sauron created the first Uruk-Hai, but his army still employed an overwhelming majority of Orcs, who are in some cases led by Black Uruks, who originate long before the birth of the Isengard Uruk-Hai and are almost a completely separate subgroup of orc. Meanwhile, Saruman's army was practically entirely Uruk-Hai, and in the process of birthing the army Saruman made improvements to their make-up, distinguishing Isengard Uruk-Hai from Mordor Uruk-Hai.

Goblin-men/Half-orcs meanwhile, were primarily utilised as spies and led neither army. They are referenced as part of the experiments carried out by Saruman, but it should be affirmed that Uruk-Hai are not half-orcs.

And by commanders, I meant the Nazgûl are strategic, campaign-spanning figureheads and leaders. Certainly Orcs and Uruks will lead Sauron's armies, but ultimately those under the Witch King's theatres will report back to Nazgûl, just as those under the Mouth of Sauron's theatre will report to the Mouths trusted lieutenants.

Haha no, not really. At least, the distinction between Uruks and Orcs is made clear, as is the distinction between Uruks and Orc-men. Orcs and Goblins are the species that Tolkien doesn't distinguish between. There was, in Tolkien's mind, no difference between the Uruks of Mordor and Isengard, save for a difference of loyalty; the only time the word "Uruk-Hai" is used in the LotR is when the Uruks themselves are using it: "We are the fighting Uruk-hai!" which literally means, we are the Uruk-folk. Not some other type of Uruk, just an identifier of a group different from the Orcs the Uruk is speaking to. Black Uruks and Uruks are also never distinguished in Tolkien's writing; the Mouth was the leader of the Black Uruks, but in the appendices Tolkien speaks of great legions of Black Uruks assailing Ithilien, in which context it is clear that those are merely Uruks, not some special vanguard subspecies.

As far as Saruman's army being entirely Uruk-Hai; well, that's a common mistake to make. In the movie Jackson chose to give the Uruk-Hai a homogenous army and very different gear to Mordor to make them visually distinct. In Tolkien's writing, about half of Saruman's army was actually made of Dunlendings and ill-favored men, with most of the rest being composed of Goblin/Orc-men, his own foul creations, and a small force of elites being composed of Uruks. If anything Uruks composed a larger fraction of Mordor's armies than Saruman's. As far as improvements to their makeup, I'd be interested to hear a written source for that, as as far as I'm aware it's only mentioned by Saruman in the movie. My comment about Half-Orcs is earlier, but I certainly agree with you that they were distinct from Uruk-Hai, though not that they were primarily spies. They composed roughly half of Isengard's army, or slightly under half.

Nazgul are strategic campaign-spanning leaders in the sense that Saruman was a strategic campaign-spanning leader; they relay orders to the commanders on the ground from their direct link to Sauron, in the same way as Saruman relayed the orders of Sauron to his forces. We agree on that point; Orcs and Uruks lead Sauron's armies, but take orders from Sauron directly via the relays that are the Nine.

[The black lands of Mordor]

Back everyone. Did I miss anything important?

The Witch King of Angmar has been lured into the deep caverns of the Misty Mountains and sealed there. It will take him about a hundred years to chisel his way out of that. Also, I put a spell on him that he needs to breathe air. GG.

Pardon?

[Liecthenbourg]

Lunas, those numbers seem quite heavy on the Elves...

[Delsola]

See, the specifics of the Uruks, Orcs, Goblins, Goblin-Men and the like has always been open to interpretation. Certainly Sauron created the first Uruk-Hai, but his army still employed an overwhelming majority of Orcs, who are in some cases led by Black Uruks, who originate long before the birth of the Isengard Uruk-Hai and are almost a completely separate subgroup of orc. Meanwhile, Saruman's army was practically entirely Uruk-Hai, and in the process of birthing the army Saruman made improvements to their make-up, distinguishing Isengard Uruk-Hai from Mordor Uruk-Hai.

Goblin-men/Half-orcs meanwhile, were primarily utilised as spies and led neither army. They are referenced as part of the experiments carried out by Saruman, but it should be affirmed that Uruk-Hai are not half-orcs.

And by commanders, I meant the Nazgûl are strategic, campaign-spanning figureheads and leaders. Certainly Orcs and Uruks will lead Sauron's armies, but ultimately those under the Witch King's theatres will report back to Nazgûl, just as those under the Mouth of Sauron's theatre will report to the Mouths trusted lieutenants.

Haha no, not really. At least, the distinction between Uruks and Orcs is made clear, as is the distinction between Uruks and Orc-men. Orcs and Goblins are the species that Tolkien doesn't distinguish between. There was, in Tolkien's mind, no difference between the Uruks of Mordor and Isengard, save for a difference of loyalty; the only time the word "Uruk-Hai" is used in the LotR is when the Uruks themselves are using it: "We are the fighting Uruk-hai!" which literally means, we are the Uruk-folk. Not some other type of Uruk, just an identifier of a group different from the Orcs the Uruk is speaking to. Black Uruks and Uruks are also never distinguished in Tolkien's writing; the Mouth was the leader of the Black Uruks, but in the appendices Tolkien speaks of great legions of Black Uruks assailing Ithilien, in which context it is clear that those are merely Uruks, not some special vanguard subspecies.

As far as Saruman's army being entirely Uruk-Hai; well, that's a common mistake to make. In the movie Jackson chose to give the Uruk-Hai a homogenous army and very different gear to Mordor to make them visually distinct. In Tolkien's writing, about half of Saruman's army was actually made of Dunlendings and ill-favored men, with most of the rest being composed of Goblin/Orc-men, his own foul creations, and a small force of elites being composed of Uruks. If anything Uruks composed a larger fraction of Mordor's armies than Saruman's. As far as improvements to their makeup, I'd be interested to hear a written source for that, as as far as I'm aware it's only mentioned by Saruman in the movie. My comment about Half-Orcs is earlier, but I certainly agree with you that they were distinct from Uruk-Hai, though not that they were primarily spies. They composed roughly half of Isengard's army, or slightly under half.

Nazgul are strategic campaign-spanning leaders in the sense that Saruman was a strategic campaign-spanning leader; they relay orders to the commanders on the ground from their direct link to Sauron, in the same way as Saruman relayed the orders of Sauron to his forces. We agree on that point; Orcs and Uruks lead Sauron's armies, but take orders from Sauron directly via the relays that are the Nine.

Just to start off, I realised I'd said the Witch-King became overseer of Isengard, when it was actually the Mouth of Sauron. Which was stupid of me since I read Mouth of Sauron then just went ahead and wrote the wrong thing anyway :S. Anyway...

Judging by this (since I'm not going to claim to know exactly the army of Isengard's composition off the top of my head) the army was mainly Uruks. Plus, in the films, games, and miniatures aka the media through which most will be familiar with the army, Uruks are seen to be the primary component of the army.

When I said about distiguishing between Black Uruks and Isengard Uruks, I wasn't trying to say that they were entirely different species, but they are culturally different in the same way men of Gondor and Rohan are. They are birthed by different masters and have separate histories. Plus, it is heavily implied that the experiments Saruman pursues alter the Uruk-Hai, even if this is a lot more stated in the films.

Finally, there was no need to say 'Haha, no' to the idea of different interpretations of the relationships between the orcish subgroups. A lot of people are under the impression that Uruks are Goblin-men/Half-orcs, and there's the goblin/orc debate, just as two examples. I for one consider goblins to be smaller orcs from places like Moria and orcs to be a little larger and from Mordor, but still consider them the same species, whilst some people use the terms interchangably for all individuals. Regardless of all this, even if Isen Uruks are a minority, they are still the ones who would be loyal to Saruman instead of blindly bowing to Sauron, since they were birthed by Saruman and are intelligent and strong-willed enough to do so.

Also, your ending description of the role of the Nazgûl is basically what I meant by field commanders; Sauron's first in command. Even if they're just there to be blindly loyal, there still the ones dealing out orders.

[Lunas Legion]

Lunas, those numbers seem quite heavy on the Elves...

It is the combined forces of both Lórien itself and the Woodland Realm, although I did forget about the Beornlings and the Northmen so I'll have to add them in which will reduce the Elven numbers.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Nuridia, a single remark on Niellune: The War of the Ring began in 3019, the Council convened in 3018, I believe. Our date is 3025. There are seven years between our PoD and the current year, while your character is seventeen, ten years too old.

[The black lands of Mordor]

So G-tech, you going to reply to me in your next post?

[G-Tech Corporation]

Just to start off, I realised I'd said the Witch-King became overseer of Isengard, when it was actually the Mouth of Sauron. Which was stupid of me since I read Mouth of Sauron then just went ahead and wrote the wrong thing anyway :S. Anyway...

Judging by this (since I'm not going to claim to know exactly the army of Isengard's composition off the top of my head) the army was mainly Uruks. Plus, in the films, games, and miniatures aka the media through which most will be familiar with the army, Uruks are seen to be the primary component of the army.

When I said about distiguishing between Black Uruks and Isengard Uruks, I wasn't trying to say that they were entirely different species, but they are culturally different in the same way men of Gondor and Rohan are. They are birthed by different masters and have separate histories. Plus, it is heavily implied that the experiments Saruman pursues alter the Uruk-Hai, even if this is a lot more stated in the films.

Finally, there was no need to say 'Haha, no' to the idea of different interpretations of the relationships between the orcish subgroups. A lot of people are under the impression that Uruks are Goblin-men/Half-orcs, and there's the goblin/orc debate, just as two examples. I for one consider goblins to be smaller orcs from places like Moria and orcs to be a little larger and from Mordor, but still consider them the same species, whilst some people use the terms interchangably for all individuals. Regardless of all this, even if Isen Uruks are a minority, they are still the ones who would be loyal to Saruman instead of blindly bowing to Sauron, since they were birthed by Saruman and are intelligent and strong-willed enough to do so.

Also, your ending description of the role of the Nazgûl is basically what I meant by field commanders; Sauron's first in command. Even if they're just there to be blindly loyal, there still the ones dealing out orders.

And those sources are all based off of Jackson's interpretation of Saruman's army, which, as I mentioned, was deliberately changed from that of Tolkien's in order to give the army of Isengard a more distinctive appearance from the forces of Mordor. Additionally, Jackson intentionally all but eliminated the Dunlendings and men that are enemies of Rohan from his film in order to prevent a complicated narrative; in Tolkien's book the fact that the Dunlendings are trying to take back their ancestral lands is given a few paragraphs of discussion, while in the film its merely reduced to something that seems to be a lie of Saruman. Sure, we can both agree that most common media portray Saruman's army as being primarily Uruk; I'm simply noting that such an interpretation is not true to the original source material, but rather a recent invention popularized by the wildly successful movies.

Sure, Isengard Uruks and Mordor Uruks are culturally distinct; that can hardly be contested, given the distance between them and their difference in commander, and to say otherwise would be silly. But are they genetically distinct, of different kindreds? That is a more debatable point. In Tolkien's works Gandalf notes that Saruman has been breeding Orcs and Westron Men, creating Half-Orcs. Nowhere are these Half-Orcs correlated to Uruks though; indeed, they are treated very separately, with the Uruks of Mordor never referred to have any mannish bloodlines in them, but merely standing taller and being more powerful than other Orcs of the Morannon and Snaga breeds. Indeed, in describing the army of Isengard issuing forth to attack Helm's Deep, Tolkien mentions no Uruks at all, only men and Orcs.

You make a fair point about loyalty though; it seemed Saruman had few true Uruks under his command, but those that he did have were highly loyal to him, exemplified in their dialogue in the march west with the Hobbits in tow. It could be conceivable that some number would wish to remain under the White Wizard's command.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Lunas, those numbers seem quite heavy on the Elves...

It is the combined forces of both Lórien itself and the Woodland Realm, although I did forget about the Beornlings and the Northmen so I'll have to add them in which will reduce the Elven numbers.

Did not the original figure of twenty thousand already include the Bardings and Dale-men, of which there were three thousands?

As far as being of the Woodland Realm, here's a good source that argues for the Woodland Realm having perhaps 3000 total soldiers in the Hobbit, a number which presumably declined between then and LotR.
http://www.stephenwigmore.com/2013/02/p ... ds-of.html

Given Lothlorien was doubtless smaller than the Woodland Realm, it would make sense for 1-2k soldiers of that force to be from Lorien, so perhaps four to five thousand Elves under arms grand total.

[Delsola]

Just to start off, I realised I'd said the Witch-King became overseer of Isengard, when it was actually the Mouth of Sauron. Which was stupid of me since I read Mouth of Sauron then just went ahead and wrote the wrong thing anyway :S. Anyway...

Judging by this (since I'm not going to claim to know exactly the army of Isengard's composition off the top of my head) the army was mainly Uruks. Plus, in the films, games, and miniatures aka the media through which most will be familiar with the army, Uruks are seen to be the primary component of the army.

When I said about distiguishing between Black Uruks and Isengard Uruks, I wasn't trying to say that they were entirely different species, but they are culturally different in the same way men of Gondor and Rohan are. They are birthed by different masters and have separate histories. Plus, it is heavily implied that the experiments Saruman pursues alter the Uruk-Hai, even if this is a lot more stated in the films.

Finally, there was no need to say 'Haha, no' to the idea of different interpretations of the relationships between the orcish subgroups. A lot of people are under the impression that Uruks are Goblin-men/Half-orcs, and there's the goblin/orc debate, just as two examples. I for one consider goblins to be smaller orcs from places like Moria and orcs to be a little larger and from Mordor, but still consider them the same species, whilst some people use the terms interchangably for all individuals. Regardless of all this, even if Isen Uruks are a minority, they are still the ones who would be loyal to Saruman instead of blindly bowing to Sauron, since they were birthed by Saruman and are intelligent and strong-willed enough to do so.

Also, your ending description of the role of the Nazgûl is basically what I meant by field commanders; Sauron's first in command. Even if they're just there to be blindly loyal, there still the ones dealing out orders.

And those sources are all based off of Jackson's interpretation of Saruman's army, which, as I mentioned, was deliberately changed from that of Tolkien's in order to give the army of Isengard a more distinctive appearance from the forces of Mordor. Additionally, Jackson intentionally all but eliminated the Dunlendings and men that are enemies of Rohan from his film in order to prevent a complicated narrative; in Tolkien's book the fact that the Dunlendings are trying to take back their ancestral lands is given a few paragraphs of discussion, while in the film its merely reduced to something that seems to be a lie of Saruman. Sure, we can both agree that most common media portray Saruman's army as being primarily Uruk; I'm simply noting that such an interpretation is not true to the original source material, but rather a recent invention popularized by the wildly successful movies.

Sure, Isengard Uruks and Mordor Uruks are culturally distinct; that can hardly be contested, given the distance between them and their difference in commander, and to say otherwise would be silly. But are they genetically distinct, of different kindreds? That is a more debatable point. In Tolkien's works Gandalf notes that Saruman has been breeding Orcs and Westron Men, creating Half-Orcs. Nowhere are these Half-Orcs correlated to Uruks though; indeed, they are treated very separately, with the Uruks of Mordor never referred to have any mannish bloodlines in them, but merely standing taller and being more powerful than other Orcs of the Morannon and Snaga breeds. Indeed, in describing the army of Isengard issuing forth to attack Helm's Deep, Tolkien mentions no Uruks at all, only men and Orcs.

You make a fair point about loyalty though; it seemed Saruman had few true Uruks under his command, but those that he did have were highly loyal to him, exemplified in their dialogue in the march west with the Hobbits in tow. It could be conceivable that some number would wish to remain under the White Wizard's command.

Fair enough. I'm willing to accept your and the other OP's decisions either way. Since both my ideas are AH butterflies, they're open to change, criticism, and improvement.

[Lunas Legion]

It is the combined forces of both Lórien itself and the Woodland Realm, although I did forget about the Beornlings and the Northmen so I'll have to add them in which will reduce the Elven numbers.

Did not the original figure of twenty thousand already include the Bardings and Dale-men, of which there were three thousands?

As far as being of the Woodland Realm, here's a good source that argues for the Woodland Realm having perhaps 3000 total soldiers in the Hobbit, a number which presumably declined between then and LotR.
http://www.stephenwigmore.com/2013/02/p ... ds-of.html

Given Lothlorien was doubtless smaller than the Woodland Realm, it would make sense for 1-2k soldiers of that force to be from Lorien, so perhaps four to five thousand Elves under arms grand total.

They aren't under my control; ergo they're a separate faction and thus not counted in my numbers. Also, Elven numbers are down to around 7k (IIRC) and I added in more Northmen/Rohirrim.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Did not the original figure of twenty thousand already include the Bardings and Dale-men, of which there were three thousands?

As far as being of the Woodland Realm, here's a good source that argues for the Woodland Realm having perhaps 3000 total soldiers in the Hobbit, a number which presumably declined between then and LotR.
http://www.stephenwigmore.com/2013/02/p ... ds-of.html

Given Lothlorien was doubtless smaller than the Woodland Realm, it would make sense for 1-2k soldiers of that force to be from Lorien, so perhaps four to five thousand Elves under arms grand total.

They aren't under my control; ergo they're a separate faction and thus not counted in my numbers. Also, Elven numbers are down to around 7k (IIRC) and I added in more Northmen/Rohirrim.

What I mean is that your original app with the 19k force figure included the remnants of Dale/Erebor/etc, as you have them in your race descriptions. If another player then took 3k soldiers as the remnant of Dale, it would make sense if the force figure was decreased by that amount, as they now no longer feature in Lorien as a faction.

[Lunas Legion]

They aren't under my control; ergo they're a separate faction and thus not counted in my numbers. Also, Elven numbers are down to around 7k (IIRC) and I added in more Northmen/Rohirrim.

What I mean is that your original app with the 19k force figure included the remnants of Dale/Erebor/etc, as you have them in your race descriptions. If another player then took 3k soldiers as the remnant of Dale, it would make sense if the force figure was decreased by that amount, as they now no longer feature in Lorien as a faction.

I didn't think Dale would make up that significant a proportion of my forces and I didn't know someone would app for Dale remnants.