The Lost Civilizations - OOC/Signups

[New Fraulasia]

I don't want to appear nitpicky, but stratus, the lowest forms of clouds, form above 2000 meters, not feet. Again, I'm not trying to detract from your points Hark, but 2000 feet and 2000 meters are two very different things.

Nope, Cumulus can form anywhere between ground level and 2000 meters. Clouds can also move about horizontally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumulus_cloud

There is no lower limit as to where water can condense HENCE THE FOGS!

Ah, I stand corrected. The point I was trying to make was that you had used feet and meters interchangeably, when one is over three times larger than the other.

[United Soviet Jason Republic]

With the smoke i can see where it was coming from. I see the point of origin. The fort.

Your bombs just got advanced. Steel frames but even then they are slim. Once again you said it would take a month to get a force together and you did it in a week.

The Zadox people will find out that a private company was shipping supplies into a war zone and those private tracks were destroyed because of that. If a national goverment is willing to go to war because a private company stuck out its neck then your goverment is going to spend money, manpower, effort and other resources in a war it was dragged into by a company. Doesn't sound like good economics.

And i told you how. The airships went up and down in the cloud to get their bearings. They were spotted from the ground too. However an air force above the cloud wouldn't be able to see through the cloud or dive bomb through it.

Mentor powers, activate.

Can each of you in this argument, since Hark is involved, clearly state your forces, their position, and their current actions/objectives?

I'd be happy to help work this out.

Ya we are spinning our wheels.

Five Leto Airships are at the bottom of a cloud going up and down to get their bearings over the fort. They just dip down below the clouds so that they can see their target and then return to their hiding position... Their goal is to drop bombs on a fort.

I don't want to appear nitpicky, but stratus, the lowest forms of clouds, form above 2000 meters, not feet. Again, I'm not trying to detract from your points Hark, but 2000 feet and 2000 meters are two very different things.

Nope, Cumulus can form anywhere between ground level and 2000 meters. Clouds can also move about horizontally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumulus_cloud

There is no lower limit as to where water can condense HENCE THE FOGS!

But there is a limit. Fog is simple clouds at ground level. The air temperature drops suddenly so the water condenses. However on a normal day the temperature and moister level don't allow for clouds to form below a certain altitude.

[Harkback Union]

There is a squadron of Harkback planes above the clouds above fort serenity and a squadron of Leto bomber airships inside clouds above the fort. They claimed to have made it above the fort undetected by hiding in clouds all the way and now they want to drop bombs without leaving my planes a chance to spot them likewise drop bombs (on the airships). Most unrealistic given how its impossible to completely stay hidden in clouds all the time without any on-board instrument that tells you when you are about to leave said clouds. They also play god by placing clouds of various shapes where they want them and removing them were they are not wanted.

There are also a dozen other things I'm not going to list just yet.

[Harkback Union]

With the smoke i can see where it was coming from. I see the point of origin. The fort.

Your bombs just got advanced. Steel frames but even then they are slim. Once again you said it would take a month to get a force together and you did it in a week.

The Zadox people will find out that a private company was shipping supplies into a war zone and those private tracks were destroyed because of that. If a national goverment is willing to go to war because a private company stuck out its neck then your goverment is going to spend money, manpower, effort and other resources in a war it was dragged into by a company. Doesn't sound like good economics.

And i told you how. The airships went up and down in the cloud to get their bearings. They were spotted from the ground too. However an air force above the cloud wouldn't be able to see through the cloud or dive bomb through it.

Mentor powers, activate.

Can each of you in this argument, since Hark is involved, clearly state your forces, their position, and their current actions/objectives?

I'd be happy to help work this out.

Ya we are spinning our wheels.

Five Leto Airships are at the bottom of a cloud going up and down to get their bearings over the fort. They just dip down below the clouds so that they can see their target and then return to their hiding position... Their goal is to drop bombs on a fort.

Nope, Cumulus can form anywhere between ground level and 2000 meters. Clouds can also move about horizontally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumulus_cloud

There is no lower limit as to where water can condense HENCE THE FOGS!

But there is a limit. Fog is simple clouds at ground level. The air temperature drops suddenly so the water condenses. However on a normal day the temperature and moister level don't allow for clouds to form below a certain altitude.

IF there is wind on the ground, Which wasn't mentioned. There is also still the smoke from shelling engulfing the whole place.

Yes, I claimed to have done it in a week while you claimed to have invaded goffsill in a week, making it all the way to the capital despited how prepared they were. Unrealistic by WW1 standards. Frontlines moved slowly given how effective defensive strategies were.

Wouldn't your airships need to manuver from time to time to adjust their position? Wouldn't they risk leaving the cloud while doing so given how its impossible to tell where they start and end once you are inside?

On a normal day, water can condense at various altitudes. 2000 feet is not rare.

[New Fraulasia]

With the smoke i can see where it was coming from. I see the point of origin. The fort.

Your bombs just got advanced. Steel frames but even then they are slim. Once again you said it would take a month to get a force together and you did it in a week.

The Zadox people will find out that a private company was shipping supplies into a war zone and those private tracks were destroyed because of that. If a national goverment is willing to go to war because a private company stuck out its neck then your goverment is going to spend money, manpower, effort and other resources in a war it was dragged into by a company. Doesn't sound like good economics.

I don't think you quite understand Zadoxian politics. The Petrol Syndicate carries significant weight within Zadox. The reason Zadox hasn't already come to help Goffsill is because of the Syndicate. Now that you've demonstrated yourself as a threat to their interests, Zadox is going to war.

[Harkback Union]

In the Harkback realm, There are several centers of power:

The Council of Zadox (mostly Democratic): The oldest. Provides some public services and manages some of the Infrastructure development.

The Harkback Cult (of which most citizens are part of, weak Theocracy ruled by descendants of a Prophet): Founded shortly after the council. Manages agriculture, public Healthcare, some of National Defense, keeps law and order and finances a portion of the Education.

The Syndicates, Corporations and Companies: Initially, Worker owned and managed companies constituded the economy. Then they begun cooperating and electing Executives to efficiently manage business (while they still remained worker owned). Eventually, The level of cooperation reached the point where they formed Syndicates or a corporate hierarchy was established.During the last decades, These companies are becoming increasingly (morally) corrupt due to executives aiming for a higher salary by increasing gross revenues.

[Harkback Union]

Can't wait for g-tech's judgement.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Hmm; alright, let's establish a basis we all agree on.

The airships are large, and slow. If they are seen, it's perfectly reasonable that, given they're bombing at low altitudes, airplanes could fly high enough to attack them in turn with bombs.

To confirm, the airships are conducting accurate low altitude bombing, yes?

Then we need to establish what the weather is. Clouds large enough to hide a rigid airframe capable of carrying a large payload tend to form rarely outside of storm systems, which dirigibles understandably avoid. What type of climate does this fort experience?

[G-Tech Corporation]

Actually, equally important; is it day, or night?

[Harkback Union]

Hmm; alright, let's establish a basis we all agree on.

The airships are large, and slow. If they are seen, it's perfectly reasonable that, given they're bombing at low altitudes, airplanes could fly high enough to attack them in turn with bombs.

To confirm, the airships are conducting accurate low altitude bombing, yes?

Then we need to establish what the weather is. Clouds large enough to hide a rigid airframe capable of carrying a large payload tend to form rarely outside of storm systems, which dirigibles understandably avoid. What type of climate does this fort experience?

Temperate climate, Something along the lines of germany or poland, Given Geography, but its also close to the the cold north.

[Harkback Union]

I reckon its day.

[New Fraulasia]

Hmm; alright, let's establish a basis we all agree on.

The airships are large, and slow. If they are seen, it's perfectly reasonable that, given they're bombing at low altitudes, airplanes could fly high enough to attack them in turn with bombs.

To confirm, the airships are conducting accurate low altitude bombing, yes?

Then we need to establish what the weather is. Clouds large enough to hide a rigid airframe capable of carrying a large payload tend to form rarely outside of storm systems, which dirigibles understandably avoid. What type of climate does this fort experience?

This fort's inland in a temperate latitude. Zadox is similar to Britain in that there's a warm ocean current that creates fog when contacts cold continental air. Similar things are seen around Newfoundland, so something like eastern Canada, I guess?

EDIT: Which is around the same latitudes as Germany and Poland, alright.

[G-Tech Corporation]

I reckon its day.

Generally I'd agree, but the Leto attackers may have chosen to come at night to conceal their assault. They are attackers, so they choose the time of the assault.

Hmm; alright, let's establish a basis we all agree on.

The airships are large, and slow. If they are seen, it's perfectly reasonable that, given they're bombing at low altitudes, airplanes could fly high enough to attack them in turn with bombs.

To confirm, the airships are conducting accurate low altitude bombing, yes?

Then we need to establish what the weather is. Clouds large enough to hide a rigid airframe capable of carrying a large payload tend to form rarely outside of storm systems, which dirigibles understandably avoid. What type of climate does this fort experience?

This fort's inland in a temperate latitude. Zadox is similar to Britain in that there's a warm ocean current that creates fog when contacts cold continental air. Similar things are seen around Newfoundland, so something like eastern Canada, I guess?

Fair enough. And is this a high altitude attack, or a low precise bombing run?

[New Fraulasia]

Low bombing run. Leto's saying he's concealing them within a low-lying cloud, which I'm taking to mean a stratocumulus.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Low bombing run. Leto's saying he's concealing them within a low-lying cloud, which I'm taking to mean a stratocumulus.

Oh? And USJR is attacking during the day?

[New Fraulasia]

The afternoon to be more precise, yes.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Then hear my judgement; even using rain cloud as cover, as would occur in the climate of the fort at times, it would be functionally impossible to hide five large bombing airships from all sight. Given that they're operating at a low ceiling for accuracy, it's quite reasonable for aircraft to attack them and be aware of their presence, though the accuracy of those aircraft will be understandably lessened dramatically by the cloud.

Basically, zeppelins don't have the maneuverability control not instruments to ensure they're always within even a large cloud, so they could be seen by an astute observer on the ground or in the air. If that observer can communicate with warplanes, those warplanes could attack the zeppelins at their low ceiling, though the use if cloud as concealment makes it likely that the zeppelins would have emptied their bomb-holds before being engaged.

[Harkback Union]

I reckon its day.

Generally I'd agree, but the Leto attackers may have chosen to come at night to conceal their assault. They are attackers, so they choose the time of the assault.

This fort's inland in a temperate latitude. Zadox is similar to Britain in that there's a warm ocean current that creates fog when contacts cold continental air. Similar things are seen around Newfoundland, so something like eastern Canada, I guess?

Fair enough. And is this a high altitude attack, or a low precise bombing run?

I don't think that the fort would be easy to spot at night, Even in moonlight. Perhaps if the Despotist forces were to deploy flares, but no such cooperation took place.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Generally I'd agree, but the Leto attackers may have chosen to come at night to conceal their assault. They are attackers, so they choose the time of the assault.



Fair enough. And is this a high altitude attack, or a low precise bombing run?

I don't think that the fort would be easy to spot at night, Even in moonlight. Perhaps if the Despotist forces were to deploy flares, but no such cooperation took place.

Oh I agree. Bombing from a zeppelin is quite tricky, and best done at day or during a full moon. Frankly I'm impressed five zeppelins made it to the target at all.

[Harkback Union]

I don't think that the fort would be easy to spot at night, Even in moonlight. Perhaps if the Despotist forces were to deploy flares, but no such cooperation took place.

Oh I agree. Bombing from a zeppelin is quite tricky, and best done at day or during a full moon. Frankly I'm impressed five zeppelins made it to the target at all.

Ye well Goffsill's airforces are busy bombing Despotist forces and mine only arrived now.

[Harkback Union]

I am wonderin, on who's side is Saxony fighting?

[United Soviet Jason Republic]

Then hear my judgement; even using rain cloud as cover, as would occur in the climate of the fort at times, it would be functionally impossible to hide five large bombing airships from all sight. Given that they're operating at a low ceiling for accuracy, it's quite reasonable for aircraft to attack them and be aware of their presence, though the accuracy of those aircraft will be understandably lessened dramatically by the cloud.

Basically, zeppelins don't have the maneuverability control not instruments to ensure they're always within even a large cloud, so they could be seen by an astute observer on the ground or in the air. If that observer can communicate with warplanes, those warplanes could attack the zeppelins at their low ceiling, though the use if cloud as concealment makes it likely that the zeppelins would have emptied their bomb-holds before being engaged.

I mean my major issues are the fact the attacking force was created from scratch in less than a week and saw my force through a cloud that they were above. My argument is that they wouldn't be seen from above due to the cloud blocking the view. However they were seen from below.

[New Fraulasia]

I am wonderin, on who's side is Saxony fighting?

I really have no idea at all. I guess he'd tell me if he was attacking me, but it's Saxony we're talking about.

[Harkback Union]

Then hear my judgement; even using rain cloud as cover, as would occur in the climate of the fort at times, it would be functionally impossible to hide five large bombing airships from all sight. Given that they're operating at a low ceiling for accuracy, it's quite reasonable for aircraft to attack them and be aware of their presence, though the accuracy of those aircraft will be understandably lessened dramatically by the cloud.

Basically, zeppelins don't have the maneuverability control not instruments to ensure they're always within even a large cloud, so they could be seen by an astute observer on the ground or in the air. If that observer can communicate with warplanes, those warplanes could attack the zeppelins at their low ceiling, though the use if cloud as concealment makes it likely that the zeppelins would have emptied their bomb-holds before being engaged.

I mean my major issues are the fact the attacking force was created from scratch in less than a week and saw my force through a cloud that they were above. My argument is that they wouldn't be seen from above due to the cloud blocking the view. However they were seen from below.

Then My major issue is you guys invading goffsill in less then a week. Thats faster then how long the germans made it to paris from belgium after the Allies evacuated, leaving little to no resistance for german panzers. Goffsill had all his armies defending.

[New Fraulasia]

What was your staging point, USJR? I know where The Despotism came from, I'm okay with the timeframe he's using (he was planning for this for ten years IC). I have no point where or how you're getting to Lotill from, and the refueling stations for the planes should probably be weel outside of my territory, since they were being constructed covertly.

I'm not questioning your resources, but I am wondering about how you've gotten them placed.