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The Lost Civilizations - OOC/Signups

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Next Era? When do we start? What should it be called?

Start it right now!
9
19%
In a few days.
5
10%
In a week or more. This tech level is fun.
6
13%
It should be Called Age of Depression.
10
21%
It should be Age of Colonialism
14
29%
It should be -open for sugg-
2
4%
It should be -open for sugg-
1
2%
It should be -open for sugg-
1
2%
 
Total votes : 48

User avatar
Harkback Union
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17382
Founded: Sep 01, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Harkback Union » Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:35 pm

United Soviet Jason Republic wrote:Look Hark i am done arguing... I am looking at the posts and finding clear flaws in your arguments.
For example: You using a train to deliver the planes to your base:
" She bought hundreds of planes and flew them to a Cult Estate "+ No reference of what happened after the the warehouse
The fact my airships arrived before yours:
USJR Post: Fri Jan 16, 2015 5:55 pm
Your Post: Fri Jan 16, 2015 6:59 pm
Your claim Goffsill's ai rforce was still defending the base:
"The squadrons, far to the north of the whole engagement, wheel back around"
Quick Timing:
"financed construction of a secure aerodome-fort"
"hundreds of planes"
" His man siezed the warplanes, hid them in a Dunnrhof warehouse"
All of this takes days to weeks to do.
Claim that you are over my position:
" climbing up in altitude until they were high enough to see dozens of Kilometrans away."
*No reference of location relative to cloud cover or fort positon
Claiming you can see me through a cloud and dive bomb efficiently through said cloud:
Look this is just posteriors, either you are above me or you see me, you can't have both and we both know it. If you waited a little bit then ya, the cloud would break up, but that would be after i dropped by bombs.


Iron built airfields for me to use. Also guns for planes are difficult. Designing this from what you say are civilian planes would be nearly impossible to do in mass in days. Developing bombs in a matter of days and modifying aircraft for this is impossible. Simple turning civilian air crafts into this is difficult. The most i would give your new air force is the ability to throw grenades off the side of the plane and hand held macine guns or simple mounted ones (that would require multiple crew) towards the back of the plane. (Note forward mounted guns require shooting through the prop piece).

My post clearly states that my forces arrive (and are spotted by the defenders of the fort in the reply post) and start their calculations. Also i said before there is enough cloud cover for this and it isn't like they are at the top of the cloud, they are at the bottom. No where does it say you are on top of me, and neither do you say you are there to defend the fort. Also if you are on top of me then stop claiming you can see me because if there is a thick cloud between you and me then you wouldn't see me.

I am firing the ignore cannon now. I look at your argument and your posts clearly contradict the evidence you are supplying me as for your positions and capabilities. There are just too many contradictions. Besides for the dissolving cloud cover which would take affect in future posts you have done nothing to prove to me that your actions are reasonable. If anything they have opened my eyes to more inaccuracies and shoe-string explanations.


SOME of The planes were transported on trains:
The Following Days, Zathel Spent millions on Ordering New Aeroplanes.
Then there is another mention of her buying airplanes and personally flying them, but thats BEFORE they were taken to the warehouse. When you said she flew them all by herself, You were referring to the entire airfleet being transported from the warehouse to the estate (said planes, which I never said happened but whatever), which was done by trains. Notice the mention of the Warehouse in my post referring to the transportation.

Yes, Realisticly It took weeks to pull the 1st harkback Air division together, but realisticly, It takes weeks to invade Goffsill to the level you guys described, especially Given that they were prepared. Despotist armies must have taken some time (At least a week) fighting through the countryside and making it all the way to Goffsill's capital. There has been other events. New weapons were developed and deployed on both sides of scale and Signfificance greater then the 1st harkback Air division.

There was reference to the location of the planes:
"On the afternoon sky above Fort Serenity..."

I already mentioned several reasons why 5 airships doing a bombing run while hiding in clouds is the death of realism. There is no way to navigate inside clouds or to properly hide airships in them, something you didn't argue against. Good luck telling where the heck you are once you enter them. Your airships could go on for minutes looking to get out of a thick cloud and find themselves dozens of kilometers away from where they were before, given windspeeds at such heights. There isn't a thick cloud between us. If the weather was that bad, Then there would be a thick cloud between your airships and the fort, which is not the case. I'm sure The tip of the cloud was blown away due to winds or Airship-inducted cloud dispersing while you were releasing the bombs, Revealing your bombers and if you think thats godmodding, Then think of how you played god so far by placing clouds above fort serenity to begin with in shapes perfect for your airships to hide.

The biggest flaws in your arguments is the lack of it regarding how you could make sure your airship stays inside a cloud while you have no vision of anything. You are also not reading my posts properly and constantly mis-interpret what I say.

Also, I don't remember you developing airships capable of launching aircraft. Perhaps I missed a post of yours...

putting guns and bombs on planes is no way difficult. Please explain where I'm wrong...
All you need is some nails and hooks. You put the machine gun above the cockpit therefore allowing the pilot to pull the trigger and load the guns. Explosive Cannon shells serve perfectly as bombs, not the most efficient in terms of weight in their initial form but you can peel off useless parts easily and put them on the sides of the cockpit Attached to a string. You cut the strings when you want the bombs released. Easy peasy.
Last edited by Harkback Union on Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Harkback Union
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17382
Founded: Sep 01, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Harkback Union » Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:37 pm

Levis Avara wrote:Its amazing how we go to war more in the OOC then in the IC


Thats usually how roleplays go during wars.

First IC heats up, then It suddenly dies and OOC becomes flooded with arguing about who godmods.
Then the RP dies as no consensus is reached.

User avatar
United Soviet Jason Republic
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5083
Founded: Jan 21, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby United Soviet Jason Republic » Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:01 pm

Harkback Union wrote:
SOME of The planes were transported on trains:
The Following Days, Zathel Spent millions on Ordering New Aeroplanes.
Then there is another mention of her buying airplanes and personally flying them, but thats BEFORE they were taken to the warehouse. When you said she flew them all by herself, You were referring to the entire airfleet being transported from the warehouse to the estate (said planes, which I never said happened but whatever), which was done by trains. Notice the mention of the Warehouse in my post referring to the transportation.

Yes, Realisticly It took weeks to pull the 1st harkback Air division together, but realisticly, It takes weeks to invade Goffsill to the level you guys described, especially Given that they were prepared. Despotist armies must have taken some time (At least a week) fighting through the countryside and making it all the way to Goffsill's capital. There has been other events. New weapons were developed and deployed on both sides of scale and Signfificance greater then the 1st harkback Air division.

There was reference to the location of the planes:
"On the afternoon sky above Fort Serenity..."

I already mentioned several reasons why 5 airships doing a bombing run while hiding in clouds is the death of realism. There is no way to navigate inside clouds or to properly hide airships in them, something you didn't argue against. Good luck telling where the heck you are once you enter them. Your airships could go on for minutes looking to get out of a thick cloud and find themselves dozens of kilometers away from where they were before, given windspeeds at such heights. There isn't a thick cloud between us. If the weather was that bad, Then there would be a thick cloud between your airships and the fort, which is not the case. I'm sure The tip of the cloud was blown away due to winds or Airship-inducted cloud dispersing while you were releasing the bombs, Revealing your bombers and if you think thats godmodding, Then think of how you played god so far by placing clouds above fort serenity to begin with in shapes perfect for your airships to hide.

The biggest flaws in your arguments is the lack of it regarding how you could make sure your airship stays inside a cloud while you have no vision of anything. You are also not reading my posts properly.

Also, I don't remember you developing airships capable of launching aircraft. Perhaps I missed a post of yours...

putting guns and bombs on planes is no way difficult. Please explain where I'm wrong...
All you need is some nails and hooks. You put the machine gun above the cockpit therefore allowing the pilot to pull the trigger and load the guns. Explosive Cannon shells serve perfectly as bombs, not the most efficient in terms of weight in their initial form but you can peel off useless parts easily and put them on the sides of the cockpit Attached to a string. You cut the strings when you want the bombs released. Easy peasy.



On the topic of my airships being lost:
" They would however, from time to time, poke through in order to get a visual on their target."
However if you are on top of the cloud you would not be able to see them dip below to get visual... Once again you can't be on top and see me because there is a cloud in the way...

As for the airship science my country has been doing that for a while. Now did i mention making the launchers? No i didn't. However I am not launching like hundreds of them only one. As for the mounted guns: If you fire a machine gun out the front of your craft you will shoot the prop. War biplanes have turrets that are calibrated to the engine rotation. Therefor they can shoot without destroying the prop. If you scrapped and air force together i doubt you would have that.... Not to mention making bombs before would be difficult if you never did that before... You are literally coming up with new battle designs in a week and slapping them on to aircraft. It takes tome. As for the length of the war, Goff. is outnumbered roughly 2 to 1. Ya he might have seen the attack from the north coming but he did nothing to prepare his southern front, where i attacked form. I mentioned my attack and he even forgot to reply until i said again that i was advancing more... So ya, considering the fact he is outnumbered, being bombed and facing a quickly moving army i could see his nation collapsing in a week. I mean he is evacuating cities... That is a tell tale sign of something hitting the fan...

And about the clouds you said i controlled the weather... The reason why i am using them is because there are thick clouds... And ya, there can be thick clouds:

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/imag ... fkMQFmrz8Q

I said that i would have the cloud break up but considering the fact it has been roughly ten to twenty minutes i think that would still be together. If you are on top of that there is no way you could see to the bottom of that. Even then Goff. commented that he was seeing the ships... But he is under the cloud. You are on top of it.... So you wouldn't see it.
Former Vise Chairmen and Chairmen of the Libertarian Freedom Party
Jamestown Journal
"There are words I can spell. There are words I can't spell. Then there are words I don't care to spell." -Me

User avatar
Pac Kindom
Diplomat
 
Posts: 821
Founded: Nov 25, 2014
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Pac Kindom » Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:51 am

What side should i join?
Hi

Please be Aware I DO have a learning disability which affects my spelling and my written Language

If I Have Made A Mistake, Please Let Me Know

Many Thanks

User avatar
New Fraulasia
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 403
Founded: Oct 28, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby New Fraulasia » Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:59 am

Pac Kindom wrote:What side should i join?

Do you value personal freedom for your people?
Despotist Domination would see the world enslaved! With 84-hour work weeks!

User avatar
Harkback Union
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17382
Founded: Sep 01, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Harkback Union » Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:59 am

United Soviet Jason Republic wrote:
Harkback Union wrote:
SOME of The planes were transported on trains:
The Following Days, Zathel Spent millions on Ordering New Aeroplanes.
Then there is another mention of her buying airplanes and personally flying them, but thats BEFORE they were taken to the warehouse. When you said she flew them all by herself, You were referring to the entire airfleet being transported from the warehouse to the estate (said planes, which I never said happened but whatever), which was done by trains. Notice the mention of the Warehouse in my post referring to the transportation.

Yes, Realisticly It took weeks to pull the 1st harkback Air division together, but realisticly, It takes weeks to invade Goffsill to the level you guys described, especially Given that they were prepared. Despotist armies must have taken some time (At least a week) fighting through the countryside and making it all the way to Goffsill's capital. There has been other events. New weapons were developed and deployed on both sides of scale and Signfificance greater then the 1st harkback Air division.

There was reference to the location of the planes:
"On the afternoon sky above Fort Serenity..."

I already mentioned several reasons why 5 airships doing a bombing run while hiding in clouds is the death of realism. There is no way to navigate inside clouds or to properly hide airships in them, something you didn't argue against. Good luck telling where the heck you are once you enter them. Your airships could go on for minutes looking to get out of a thick cloud and find themselves dozens of kilometers away from where they were before, given windspeeds at such heights. There isn't a thick cloud between us. If the weather was that bad, Then there would be a thick cloud between your airships and the fort, which is not the case. I'm sure The tip of the cloud was blown away due to winds or Airship-inducted cloud dispersing while you were releasing the bombs, Revealing your bombers and if you think thats godmodding, Then think of how you played god so far by placing clouds above fort serenity to begin with in shapes perfect for your airships to hide.

The biggest flaws in your arguments is the lack of it regarding how you could make sure your airship stays inside a cloud while you have no vision of anything. You are also not reading my posts properly.

Also, I don't remember you developing airships capable of launching aircraft. Perhaps I missed a post of yours...

putting guns and bombs on planes is no way difficult. Please explain where I'm wrong...
All you need is some nails and hooks. You put the machine gun above the cockpit therefore allowing the pilot to pull the trigger and load the guns. Explosive Cannon shells serve perfectly as bombs, not the most efficient in terms of weight in their initial form but you can peel off useless parts easily and put them on the sides of the cockpit Attached to a string. You cut the strings when you want the bombs released. Easy peasy.



On the topic of my airships being lost:
" They would however, from time to time, poke through in order to get a visual on their target."
However if you are on top of the cloud you would not be able to see them dip below to get visual... Once again you can't be on top and see me because there is a cloud in the way...

As for the airship science my country has been doing that for a while. Now did i mention making the launchers? No i didn't. However I am not launching like hundreds of them only one. As for the mounted guns: If you fire a machine gun out the front of your craft you will shoot the prop. War biplanes have turrets that are calibrated to the engine rotation. Therefor they can shoot without destroying the prop. If you scrapped and air force together i doubt you would have that.... Not to mention making bombs before would be difficult if you never did that before... You are literally coming up with new battle designs in a week and slapping them on to aircraft. It takes tome. As for the length of the war, Goff. is outnumbered roughly 2 to 1. Ya he might have seen the attack from the north coming but he did nothing to prepare his southern front, where i attacked form. I mentioned my attack and he even forgot to reply until i said again that i was advancing more... So ya, considering the fact he is outnumbered, being bombed and facing a quickly moving army i could see his nation collapsing in a week. I mean he is evacuating cities... That is a tell tale sign of something hitting the fan...

And about the clouds you said i controlled the weather... The reason why i am using them is because there are thick clouds... And ya, there can be thick clouds:

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/imag ... fkMQFmrz8Q

I said that i would have the cloud break up but considering the fact it has been roughly ten to twenty minutes i think that would still be together. If you are on top of that there is no way you could see to the bottom of that. Even then Goff. commented that he was seeing the ships... But he is under the cloud. You are on top of it.... So you wouldn't see it.


You don't understand. Your airships don't know how to poke out of the clouds without a way telling:
-Whats their speed relative to the clouds
-Their Location in the cloud
-The Dimensions of the cloud

Airships are massive. Suppose one of them is heading towards the edge of the cloud. Your crew has no way telling that they do and can't take action until the airship's edge is already out of the cloud and by the time theye notice, They can't change course quickly enough to avoid leaning out of a cloud for at least half a minute. Now matter how advanced your airship tech is, There are some things to be taken into account:

- propeller Engines that can move airships about are large and They take time to start and rotate up (In fact all propeller engines do).
- Airships have huge mass and therefore huge impulse when moving. To revrse their motion can take quiet awhile.


No, The prop is only so large. You can shoot safely if you put machine guns above the cockpit or on the wings, which is what they have done early in the war.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 2_USAF.jpg
You also failed to explain yet again why bombs would have to be designed when you can just take hells from naval guns and peel off the useleses parts.

Okay, So You can have Airships Launching Airplanes without any explaing as to how they work but you expect me to list every bit of preparation related to my forces.

You don't understand again. I didn't say that thick clouds are impossible. Read my post again.
I merely asked that if there is a thick cloud in between us, why wouldn't there by another thick cloud between you and the fort? If you can place a cloud above the fort and control it, I can place one too.

Your airships could also lean out of the clouds horizontally for reasons already mentioned, Giving planes above the cloud a way to spot them. I also don't recall saying that I'm directly above you at the time of spotting the airships. Above you yes, But there is an angle from which things can be spotted below the cloud.

Goffsill was prepared on the north and thats where Despotism claimed to have made huge advance which implies weeks of fighting. Yes, They are losing the war but they are not alone. They get plenty of support from abroad. As for you guys getting a crapton of army, you may want to check the item capacity for the current era.

User avatar
Harkback Union
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17382
Founded: Sep 01, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Harkback Union » Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:01 am

Pac Kindom wrote:What side should i join?

Harkback will pay you Millions if you sell us warplanes. We'll also pay you if you send an expeditionary force.

User avatar
Harkback Union
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17382
Founded: Sep 01, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Harkback Union » Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:06 am

Also, I take it we scrap the card mechanics given how they weren't used recently and make no sense.

User avatar
New Fraulasia
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 403
Founded: Oct 28, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby New Fraulasia » Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:07 am

Harkback Union wrote:Goffsill was prepared on the north and thats where Despotism claimed to have made huge advance which implies weeks of fighting. Yes, They are losing the war but they are not alone. They get plenty of support from abroad. As for you guys getting a crapton of army, you may want to check the item capacity for the current era.


Actually, as far as "crapton of army" goes, I believe that Leto has the greatest army, of ten forces Items, and (depending on the starting bonus), either no capacity to expand or barely any.

I'm not sure about New Straus' army by size, but (I believe) he has
1. Overseers- a peacekeeping force
2. Deep Guard- the home guard defending the capital
3.Czar's Legion- the shock troops of the Despotism
4. Aura Tanks- Light, fast tanks
5. Despotist-53 tanks- Heavy tanks
6. Yuri's Wolves- A commando group
But I'm not sure about the interrelatedness of the number of his forces Items and the relative size of his army.

User avatar
Harkback Union
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17382
Founded: Sep 01, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Harkback Union » Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:35 am

New Fraulasia wrote:
Harkback Union wrote:Goffsill was prepared on the north and thats where Despotism claimed to have made huge advance which implies weeks of fighting. Yes, They are losing the war but they are not alone. They get plenty of support from abroad. As for you guys getting a crapton of army, you may want to check the item capacity for the current era.


Actually, as far as "crapton of army" goes, I believe that Leto has the greatest army, of ten forces Items, and (depending on the starting bonus), either no capacity to expand or barely any.

I'm not sure about New Straus' army by size, but (I believe) he has
1. Overseers- a peacekeeping force
2. Deep Guard- the home guard defending the capital
3.Czar's Legion- the shock troops of the Despotism
4. Aura Tanks- Light, fast tanks
5. Despotist-53 tanks- Heavy tanks
6. Yuri's Wolves- A commando group
But I'm not sure about the interrelatedness of the number of his forces Items and the relative size of his army.


Altaria Also has Oversized armies.
Basically, The Item system is there to keep nations from becoming good at everything. If you have large armies, Then you can have less tech, Culture and Industry, or skilled generals, Meaning less supplies, weaponry, Organization and morale for armies for said armies...

User avatar
Pac Kindom
Diplomat
 
Posts: 821
Founded: Nov 25, 2014
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Pac Kindom » Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:25 am

Harkback Union wrote:
New Fraulasia wrote:
Actually, as far as "crapton of army" goes, I believe that Leto has the greatest army, of ten forces Items, and (depending on the starting bonus), either no capacity to expand or barely any.

I'm not sure about New Straus' army by size, but (I believe) he has
1. Overseers- a peacekeeping force
2. Deep Guard- the home guard defending the capital
3.Czar's Legion- the shock troops of the Despotism
4. Aura Tanks- Light, fast tanks
5. Despotist-53 tanks- Heavy tanks
6. Yuri's Wolves- A commando group
But I'm not sure about the interrelatedness of the number of his forces Items and the relative size of his army.


Altaria Also has Oversized armies.
Basically, The Item system is there to keep nations from becoming good at everything. If you have large armies, Then you can have less tech, Culture and Industry, or skilled generals, Meaning less supplies, weaponry, Organization and morale for armies for said armies...



Surely if we up frount about the numbers we ogt and let others know what we got every one woould be happy.
So you know what your facing for example

i have 2 force each made up of
100 tanks
50,000 foot soldiers
500 The Machine Guns
500 QF 13-pounder and 500 QF 18-pounder
Last edited by Pac Kindom on Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Hi

Please be Aware I DO have a learning disability which affects my spelling and my written Language

If I Have Made A Mistake, Please Let Me Know

Many Thanks

User avatar
United Soviet Jason Republic
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5083
Founded: Jan 21, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby United Soviet Jason Republic » Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:25 am

Harkback Union wrote:You don't understand. Your airships don't know how to poke out of the clouds without a way telling:
-Whats their speed relative to the clouds
-Their Location in the cloud
-The Dimensions of the cloud

Airships are massive. Suppose one of them is heading towards the edge of the cloud. Your crew has no way telling that they do and can't take action until the airship's edge is already out of the cloud and by the time theye notice, They can't change course quickly enough to avoid leaning out of a cloud for at least half a minute. Now matter how advanced your airship tech is, There are some things to be taken into account:

- propeller Engines that can move airships about are large and They take time to start and rotate up (In fact all propeller engines do).
- Airships have huge mass and therefore huge impulse when moving. To revrse their motion can take quiet awhile.


No, The prop is only so large. You can shoot safely if you put machine guns above the cockpit or on the wings, which is what they have done early in the war.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 2_USAF.jpg
You also failed to explain yet again why bombs would have to be designed when you can just take hells from naval guns and peel off the useleses parts.

Okay, So You can have Airships Launching Airplanes without any explaing as to how they work but you expect me to list every bit of preparation related to my forces.

You don't understand again. I didn't say that thick clouds are impossible. Read my post again.
I merely asked that if there is a thick cloud in between us, why wouldn't there by another thick cloud between you and the fort? If you can place a cloud above the fort and control it, I can place one too.

Your airships could also lean out of the clouds horizontally for reasons already mentioned, Giving planes above the cloud a way to spot them. I also don't recall saying that I'm directly above you at the time of spotting the airships. Above you yes, But there is an angle from which things can be spotted below the cloud.

Goffsill was prepared on the north and thats where Despotism claimed to have made huge advance which implies weeks of fighting. Yes, They are losing the war but they are not alone. They get plenty of support from abroad. As for you guys getting a crapton of army, you may want to check the item capacity for the current era.


I addressed them. Also there can't be a cloud below me because at that altitude of the cloud that I am in the water vapor is condensing. That requires a certain temperature to do. That is why clouds form at the same height and have flat bottoms. That is the altitude in which the water begins to condense. There can't be a cloud below me due to that and if anything there are more clouds above the level. That just marks the spot where clouds can begin to form. That is why their can't be a cloud lower then my altitude. Also my item capacity is up to date. I made sure it was. Also i bombed out Goffsill's railroads that lead to foreign countries to prevent foreign aid...

Also stop trying to say you are above me and can see me. It just can't happen. If anything stressing that argument highlights the total shoe string everything going your way explanations that are making me ignore the Hark Airforce. I asked several people in my region who have a knack for aviation and weapon designs and they said that your air force could not be created in that amount of time and that hiding inside clouds was a tactic used...

Also this morning i was watching a show on the first world war and the "bombers" were having their co pilots throw artillery shells over the side of the craft. Very inaccurate.

EDIT: Ya i have like 6 slots left for items... Maybe that is why i am invading people.... there is a reason... ya...
Last edited by United Soviet Jason Republic on Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Former Vise Chairmen and Chairmen of the Libertarian Freedom Party
Jamestown Journal
"There are words I can spell. There are words I can't spell. Then there are words I don't care to spell." -Me

User avatar
New Fraulasia
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 403
Founded: Oct 28, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby New Fraulasia » Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:32 am

There are no railroads going through my territory. There was never any need. If you've bombed a railroad it was probably either yours or Zadox's

User avatar
United Soviet Jason Republic
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5083
Founded: Jan 21, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby United Soviet Jason Republic » Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:51 am

New Fraulasia wrote:There are no railroads going through my territory. There was never any need. If you've bombed a railroad it was probably either yours or Zadox's


Ah... ok my bad. Well i doubt my rail would be used and since Zadox is bringing the aid it would be on those lines.... I assume. That or just consider that post the idea of bombing material routes.
Former Vise Chairmen and Chairmen of the Libertarian Freedom Party
Jamestown Journal
"There are words I can spell. There are words I can't spell. Then there are words I don't care to spell." -Me

User avatar
Harkback Union
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17382
Founded: Sep 01, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Harkback Union » Mon Jan 19, 2015 8:40 am

United Soviet Jason Republic wrote:
New Fraulasia wrote:There are no railroads going through my territory. There was never any need. If you've bombed a railroad it was probably either yours or Zadox's


Ah... ok my bad. Well i doubt my rail would be used and since Zadox is bringing the aid it would be on those lines.... I assume. That or just consider that post the idea of bombing material routes.


Ya those were petrol Syndicate Railroads.
Now we have a casus belly.

User avatar
Harkback Union
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17382
Founded: Sep 01, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Harkback Union » Mon Jan 19, 2015 8:47 am

United Soviet Jason Republic wrote:
Harkback Union wrote:You don't understand. Your airships don't know how to poke out of the clouds without a way telling:
-Whats their speed relative to the clouds
-Their Location in the cloud
-The Dimensions of the cloud

Airships are massive. Suppose one of them is heading towards the edge of the cloud. Your crew has no way telling that they do and can't take action until the airship's edge is already out of the cloud and by the time theye notice, They can't change course quickly enough to avoid leaning out of a cloud for at least half a minute. Now matter how advanced your airship tech is, There are some things to be taken into account:

- propeller Engines that can move airships about are large and They take time to start and rotate up (In fact all propeller engines do).
- Airships have huge mass and therefore huge impulse when moving. To revrse their motion can take quiet awhile.


No, The prop is only so large. You can shoot safely if you put machine guns above the cockpit or on the wings, which is what they have done early in the war.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 2_USAF.jpg
You also failed to explain yet again why bombs would have to be designed when you can just take hells from naval guns and peel off the useleses parts.

Okay, So You can have Airships Launching Airplanes without any explaing as to how they work but you expect me to list every bit of preparation related to my forces.

You don't understand again. I didn't say that thick clouds are impossible. Read my post again.
I merely asked that if there is a thick cloud in between us, why wouldn't there by another thick cloud between you and the fort? If you can place a cloud above the fort and control it, I can place one too.

Your airships could also lean out of the clouds horizontally for reasons already mentioned, Giving planes above the cloud a way to spot them. I also don't recall saying that I'm directly above you at the time of spotting the airships. Above you yes, But there is an angle from which things can be spotted below the cloud.

Goffsill was prepared on the north and thats where Despotism claimed to have made huge advance which implies weeks of fighting. Yes, They are losing the war but they are not alone. They get plenty of support from abroad. As for you guys getting a crapton of army, you may want to check the item capacity for the current era.


I addressed them. Also there can't be a cloud below me because at that altitude of the cloud that I am in the water vapor is condensing. That requires a certain temperature to do. That is why clouds form at the same height and have flat bottoms. That is the altitude in which the water begins to condense. There can't be a cloud below me due to that and if anything there are more clouds above the level. That just marks the spot where clouds can begin to form. That is why their can't be a cloud lower then my altitude. Also my item capacity is up to date. I made sure it was. Also i bombed out Goffsill's railroads that lead to foreign countries to prevent foreign aid...

Also stop trying to say you are above me and can see me. It just can't happen. If anything stressing that argument highlights the total shoe string everything going your way explanations that are making me ignore the Hark Airforce. I asked several people in my region who have a knack for aviation and weapon designs and they said that your air force could not be created in that amount of time and that hiding inside clouds was a tactic used...

Also this morning i was watching a show on the first world war and the "bombers" were having their co pilots throw artillery shells over the side of the craft. Very inaccurate.


Then whats this:
http://www.atmos.washington.edu/2005Q1/ ... _reuer.jpg

Clouds can form at different altitudes. and their bottoms aren't always flat. There can also be clouds beneath a given cloud formation level when a cold front arrives. Also Your airships claim to be at high altitudes and you still haven't explained how your crew would be able to prevent the airship from drifting out of the clouds from time to time given how little they know about their speed, there position in the cloud and where the edges of the cloud are. More about this later

Also, If really watched WWI documentary, You should know how simple it was to drop bombs on airships (a leading cause of airship destruction) and how many of them were easily destroyed. It took little to no skill given their size and a single bomb could obliterate them (unless you use helium, but there was barely enough recoverable helium on earth to build and maintain couple of airships back in the days.) You should also know how difficult it is to manuver them and how expensive to build and maintain.
Development from unarmed planes to warplanes took about 1 month during ww1. In august 1914, There were merely a few armed planes in the world (also happened to be result of simply putting guns on planes). By The first week of october, They were all sorts of combat aircraft Armed with machine guns, Bombs and grappling hooks (latter turned out to be not so efficient.)


We have planes. Leto airships are bombing goffsill. What do we do?
Destroy the airships with our planes!
How?
Drop explosive stuff on them!
How do we make sure it hits?
Easy, We fly above them and minimize our horizontal velocity!


This takes only the most elementary knowledge about ballastics...

You are still avoiding my arguments. You still don't tell me why should it take more then a day to put gund and bombs on ariplanes. All of the materials are present along with the logistics and logic needed to put them together.
No, Your airships will be spotted if they spot fort serenity. Its unrealistic that they can hide in clouds for so long without accidentally revealing themselves when they reach the cloud's edge. Its unrealistic that your airships avoid colliding while they are inside the clouds because they can't tell where they are relative to the other airships. Its unrealistic that your airships fly at high altitudes and are at the bottom of the cloud level at the same time. 2000 feet is not high altitude by any standard, Small arms can shoot that high and even the slightest oddity in a cloud can be spotted. 2000 feet is how the lowest clouds are:

Image

There can also plenty of smoke coming from the ground inhibiting vision from above. Goffsill could claim all they that none of their stuff can be located from above because of all the smoke coming from the battlefield below:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-tqaFw_75tsw/T ... strike.jpg
(and thats just the result of a few burning buildings)

Clouds of smoke can also form on the ground and completely block your vision. If you really want a godly made thick cloud for your airships then you must accept the thick cloud of smoke surrounding the fort due to intense shelling of the area.

Another offer of mine is that your airships remain undetected (despite how unrealistic that is) but can't see where the fort is due to the smoke.

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United Soviet Jason Republic
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5083
Founded: Jan 21, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby United Soviet Jason Republic » Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:01 am

Harkback Union wrote:
United Soviet Jason Republic wrote:
Ah... ok my bad. Well i doubt my rail would be used and since Zadox is bringing the aid it would be on those lines.... I assume. That or just consider that post the idea of bombing material routes.


Ya those were petrol Syndicate Railroads.
Now we have a casus belly.


Well delivering supplies into a war zone is voluntary. IF your syndicate is so concerned about profit then i doubt they would carry supplies into an active war zone. It is pretty much asking for it. When your goverment asks why the reply is simple: a company risked itself to carry war supplies in a war zone. They were not targets until they got evolved and put themselves into that position. I would also think any other company that wants cheap oil would also see it as a blatant attempt at the Syndicate trying to get Zadox involved in a costly war when they could be making profit. No one wants that...

"Leto why did you bomb private railroads?"
They were actively partaking in supplying the enemy. They didn't have to. They could have not gotten involved. But they choose to carry cargo into a war zone. They knew the risks. They paid the price. A few broken tracks is little to pay compared to the cost in lives that aiding the enemy could bring. I am sure that companies trying to get rid of the Syndicate oil monopoly would agree in a heat beat.

Clouds can form at different altitudes ABOVE the point of condensation. Anywhere BELOW that the conditions cannot support cloud cover. Ya that airplane photo is where YOUR planes are. Mine are at the BOTTOM of those clouds. As for the smoke there was no mention of it. Now you are bringing it up. If it wasn't mentioned it wasn't there. Not to add that if it is the start of the smoke trail i'd be able to see were the fires or what not are. Why does it take more than a day to put weapons and bombs on a plane? It took military air forces MONTHS in the first world war to create, develop, test and design aircraft weapons. In the battle of the Sonne the Germans had the upper hand in air power for a month until the french could catch up with air power. You can't slap on bombs and guns. It simple isn't that easy. It takes weeks of designs. Forward mounted guns have to be calibrated to the prop (the photo you showed me has the guns within the diameter of the prop) and any other modifications to hundreds of planes takes weeks.

Ya bombing isn't easy and airships are vulnerable. That is why i put them in the clouds. However all of those airships in documentaries are in the open and are generally destroyed by machine gun fire not shells. You would need to design a shell with a timer or to explode with minimal resistance form the balloon. You can't just drop it and the shell go boom. Also even if you saw me from a different angle and then came in from above to dive bomb through the cloud you would loose visual and thus the target. You said that it would take a month to make your planes into war planes? Ya, i said that is the case. If this war is a week old you have three more weeks of sitting pretty justifying why a private company would drag down a nation into war.
Former Vise Chairmen and Chairmen of the Libertarian Freedom Party
Jamestown Journal
"There are words I can spell. There are words I can't spell. Then there are words I don't care to spell." -Me

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New Fraulasia
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 403
Founded: Oct 28, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby New Fraulasia » Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:09 am

I don't want to appear nitpicky, but stratus, the lowest forms of clouds, form above 2000 meters, not feet. Again, I'm not trying to detract from your points Hark, but 2000 feet and 2000 meters are two very different things.

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New Fraulasia
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 403
Founded: Oct 28, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby New Fraulasia » Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:14 am

United Soviet Jason Republic wrote:
Harkback Union wrote:
Ya those were petrol Syndicate Railroads.
Now we have a casus belly.


Well delivering supplies into a war zone is voluntary. IF your syndicate is so concerned about profit then i doubt they would carry supplies into an active war zone. It is pretty much asking for it. When your goverment asks why the reply is simple: a company risked itself to carry war supplies in a war zone. They were not targets until they got evolved and put themselves into that position. I would also think any other company that wants cheap oil would also see it as a blatant attempt at the Syndicate trying to get Zadox involved in a costly war when they could be making profit. No one wants that...

"Leto why did you bomb private railroads?"
They were actively partaking in supplying the enemy. They didn't have to. They could have not gotten involved. But they choose to carry cargo into a war zone. They knew the risks. They paid the price. A few broken tracks is little to pay compared to the cost in lives that aiding the enemy could bring. I am sure that companies trying to get rid of the Syndicate oil monopoly would agree in a heat beat.

Clouds can form at different altitudes ABOVE the point of condensation. Anywhere BELOW that the conditions cannot support cloud cover. Ya that airplane photo is where YOUR planes are. Mine are at the BOTTOM of those clouds. As for the smoke there was no mention of it. Now you are bringing it up. If it wasn't mentioned it wasn't there. Not to add that if it is the start of the smoke trail i'd be able to see were the fires or what not are. Why does it take more than a day to put weapons and bombs on a plane? It took military air forces MONTHS in the first world war to create, develop, test and design aircraft weapons. In the battle of the Sonne the Germans had the upper hand in air power for a month until the french could catch up with air power. You can't slap on bombs and guns. It simple isn't that easy. It takes weeks of designs. Forward mounted guns have to be calibrated to the prop (the photo you showed me has the guns within the diameter of the prop) and any other modifications to hundreds of planes takes weeks.

Ya bombing isn't easy and airships are vulnerable. That is why i put them in the clouds. However all of those airships in documentaries are in the open and are generally destroyed by machine gun fire not shells. You would need to design a shell with a timer or to explode with minimal resistance form the balloon. You can't just drop it and the shell go boom. Also even if you saw me from a different angle and then came in from above to dive bomb through the cloud you would loose visual and thus the target. You said that it would take a month to make your planes into war planes? Ya, i said that is the case. If this war is a week old you have three more weeks of sitting pretty justifying why a private company would drag down a nation into war.


They were only being a loyal ally, USJR, the kind you'd want an alliance with, right?

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Levis Avara
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Posts: 1248
Founded: Aug 10, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Levis Avara » Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:17 am

Ah I love a good argument in the morning are y'all even close to making a agreement?

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New Fraulasia
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 403
Founded: Oct 28, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby New Fraulasia » Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:19 am

(If you don't get it, this is what you said to Levis to justify your invasion)

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United Soviet Jason Republic
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5083
Founded: Jan 21, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby United Soviet Jason Republic » Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:21 am

New Fraulasia wrote:
They were only being a loyal ally, USJR, the kind you'd want an alliance with, right?


Lol nice. But a private company doesn't have a military alliance..... Or when they do i don't think i want to be on Earth anymore.

Levis Avara wrote:Ah I love a good argument in the morning are y'all even close to making a agreement?


It has kind of dissolved into general nit picking. So no... I mean i'd be ok with the force if it was deployed in another IC month... Even then the idea of dive bombing through a cloud to find targets inside of said cloud is simple outrageous.

New Fraulasia wrote:(If you don't get it, this is what you said to Levis to justify your invasion)

Oh i get it.... lol. More of the justification was the fact you destroyed the telegraph lines (which was just a cover up that outsiders might understand...)
Former Vise Chairmen and Chairmen of the Libertarian Freedom Party
Jamestown Journal
"There are words I can spell. There are words I can't spell. Then there are words I don't care to spell." -Me

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Harkback Union
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17382
Founded: Sep 01, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Harkback Union » Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:33 am

United Soviet Jason Republic wrote:
Harkback Union wrote:
Ya those were petrol Syndicate Railroads.
Now we have a casus belly.


Well delivering supplies into a war zone is voluntary. IF your syndicate is so concerned about profit then i doubt they would carry supplies into an active war zone. It is pretty much asking for it. When your goverment asks why the reply is simple: a company risked itself to carry war supplies in a war zone. They were not targets until they got evolved and put themselves into that position. I would also think any other company that wants cheap oil would also see it as a blatant attempt at the Syndicate trying to get Zadox involved in a costly war when they could be making profit. No one wants that...

"Leto why did you bomb private railroads?"
They were actively partaking in supplying the enemy. They didn't have to. They could have not gotten involved. But they choose to carry cargo into a war zone. They knew the risks. They paid the price. A few broken tracks is little to pay compared to the cost in lives that aiding the enemy could bring. I am sure that companies trying to get rid of the Syndicate oil monopoly would agree in a heat beat.

Clouds can form at different altitudes ABOVE the point of condensation. Anywhere BELOW that the conditions cannot support cloud cover. Ya that airplane photo is where YOUR planes are. Mine are at the BOTTOM of those clouds. As for the smoke there was no mention of it. Now you are bringing it up. If it wasn't mentioned it wasn't there. Not to add that if it is the start of the smoke trail i'd be able to see were the fires or what not are. Why does it take more than a day to put weapons and bombs on a plane? It took military air forces MONTHS in the first world war to create, develop, test and design aircraft weapons. In the battle of the Sonne the Germans had the upper hand in air power for a month until the french could catch up with air power. You can't slap on bombs and guns. It simple isn't that easy. It takes weeks of designs. Forward mounted guns have to be calibrated to the prop (the photo you showed me has the guns within the diameter of the prop) and any other modifications to hundreds of planes takes weeks.

Ya bombing isn't easy and airships are vulnerable. That is why i put them in the clouds. However all of those airships in documentaries are in the open and are generally destroyed by machine gun fire not shells. You would need to design a shell with a timer or to explode with minimal resistance form the balloon. You can't just drop it and the shell go boom. Also even if you saw me from a different angle and then came in from above to dive bomb through the cloud you would loose visual and thus the target. You said that it would take a month to make your planes into war planes? Ya, i said that is the case. If this war is a week old you have three more weeks of sitting pretty justifying why a private company would drag down a nation into war.


Trade in wartimes is the most profitable thing ever. Everything is in short supply and prices skyrocket. Its worth the risks and the Petrol Syndicate is willing to trade with anyone. They also hid the fact that goffsill is at war with Leto from the Zadoxian public (Hence why Renorie and Ectrüs where mostly responsible for pulling together the air division.)

If the Public of Zadox find out that Leto is at war with goffsill (which they will pretty soon) and that harkback Trains were obliterated, Things will change. Not to mention that Altarian goods were destroyed aswell.

The smoke WAS IN FACT MENTIONED:
"We have reason to believe the fort will soon be breached. Mon 5." And lo, on a five count later, the fort's air pumps and dispensers began belching out toxins into the air around the fort's north face. Gas masked Goffsill soldiers take potshots from the ramparts, if their air is clear of Leto bombs.


Mustard Gas:
Image


Is basically all over the fort. There is also no way all the fighting on the ground could be done without smoke appearing. Tonnes of dust must have flown into the air from all the gunpowder used, especially surrounding the fort. Explosions set nearby vegetation and flammable infrastructure on fire.

And the cloud condensing line you speak of Can change and can be very, Very low. (as low as 0 meters above ground, hence the fogs, around 600 meters in overcast weather (as illustrated)). You said your airships were high up.

Airships have steel frames around them to keep the thing together and gas is stored in some tissue strong enough to withstand the pressure difference. Bombs will likely collide with either. You don't need timers. You can also use a simple magnetic device that detonates when passing by large quantities of metal (which is what flak guns used) but there is no need of that since impact velocity of bombs dropped on your airships is high enough to trigger the detonation.

More smoke from exploding bombs:
http://www.haaretz.com/polopoly_fs/1.63 ... 604427.jpg

You still managed to, for the 4th time not explain how its possible to keep your airships inside the clouds once you enter them, given all the difficulties of telling where the heck you are inside.

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Harkback Union
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17382
Founded: Sep 01, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Harkback Union » Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:38 am

New Fraulasia wrote:I don't want to appear nitpicky, but stratus, the lowest forms of clouds, form above 2000 meters, not feet. Again, I'm not trying to detract from your points Hark, but 2000 feet and 2000 meters are two very different things.


Nope, Cumulus can form anywhere between ground level and 2000 meters. Clouds can also move about horizontally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumulus_cloud

There is no lower limit as to where water can condense HENCE THE FOGS!

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G-Tech Corporation
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 62586
Founded: Feb 03, 2010
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby G-Tech Corporation » Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:40 am

Mentor powers, activate.

Can each of you in this argument, since Hark is involved, clearly state your forces, their position, and their current actions/objectives?

I'd be happy to help work this out.
Quite the unofficial fellow. Former P2TM Mentor specializing in faction and nation RPs, as well as RPGs. Always happy to help.

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