The Historical RP Group HQ 2

[Finland SSR]

I want to read all of that....

But I won't.



Anyway, I think a cool idea for an RP would be like a god RP, start with a tiny settlement somewhere on earth, primitive technology, guide your people, etc.

So, Ethereal Notions?

[The Jonathanian States]

Butterflies are things that happen after your PoD and are affected by it.
You can't butterfly your PoD. That's like saying that you want to breath in your vacuum. Don't try, the results will be horrible, probably painful, death.

I mean the butterfly that caused the POD will be bigger.

I think you mean vice-versa....

So you have no /actual/ reply?

Other than saying that Sakhalin is irrelevant and that I'll probably assign it according to what looks better on the map, no.
edit: probably Japan. That straight line through the middle is... ehh, to say the least.

Ah, sorry, I just noticed that I missed out on much of what you said. That reply was supposed to be only at the last part.

But leaning towards Germany, because there's pretty much nothing except colonies and navy going for the Brits, and if the colonies get taken by land or something, which is not quite ridiculous, then the navy is ded too.

I is quite ridiculous. Logistics are a thing a moving ammo and food from Germany to Suez for a whole army is going to be hard enough. But then having to move all of that through the jungles and deserts of africa?
If germany would try that, they would collapse. Like collapse into nothingness.

De jure white peace, though.

De jure, sure. But Japan has to be-facto gain from that peace, and more than just a few tiny Islands and a piece of frozen steppe.

Yeah, some weird stuff. Probably something like back in the times of the Khedivate, except less weird.

Sure.

Except that the treaty ports pretty much control Chinese trade, so Germany would be essentially handing over everything of China that's useful to a coloniser to Japan if it surrendered all the ports. Also, considering the disdain the Brits and French had for the Japanese, I wouldn't be surprised if they handed over the keys to Germans without waiting for the Japanese.

Now consider that Japan de-facto actually already controls all of those, and that therefore Germany has to give them at least some.
It doesn't matter whom they hand the keys. There are no Germans available in China, while Japan barely did anything. Before a week has passed after they became German the Japanese at least have an army on the way, if the place isn't already under siege.

Mhm.


Note how the war ended by war between two countries that border each other. In this case we are talking about possibly almost literally half the world being between the two opponents.
Logistically speaking, Germany will not do anything against Japan before having found peace with the British. As otherwise it can't do anything by sea within the next decade or two.

So unless Germany goes for a crazy march through Persia, through Baluchistan, through all of India, then through Burma, followed by finally possibly encountering the Japanese in Indochina, they can't fight Japan before Britain.
And then they'd have to find some way to reach the other places without going by sea, if they haven't defeated the Brits yet.

Basically, the german position will decline in time as Japan creates fait accompli-s.

Germany not being able to do anything against Japan does not equal Japan not being able to do anything against Germany. That would still have combat involved, and would still not be nearly as profitable as literal freebies.

Combat? Against which German troops? The German Garrison of Indochina? The German army of Hong Kong? Japan definitely does things against Germany. But there are no German troops there for there to be any combat and I doubt the French and British would resist (too much). It would be literal or nearly literal freebies.

For that they have to first be in those others' pockets.
Also, you talked about reparations....
Do you know that Germany finished paying off the WW1 debt in 2010? Yes, less than ten years ago. It was October, so it isn't even five.
That a bit more than half of the demanded reparations weren't actually ever supposed to be paid by Germany, but rather create a bigger number?
Let's also not forget that the actual commission for the reparations was created in 1921 and that changes to them were made in '24 and '30. There's also the Hoover Moratorium, but I guess all of those happen far enough after this discussion.

My point is, even if reparations are that sustaining long-term, it takes time to get them moving properly and they rely on the economic situation of the country paying.

Reparations are indeed less significant than trade, but they're still there.

Not of major significance while the war still goes on with Britain, most likely.

Soviet Russia is in a Civil war and IIRC not even fully recognized. Iran is far away, and to an extent so are Spain and Egypt.
France.... I guess they can trade through France. But I wouldn't be surprised at passive resistance at shipments to Germany.

Didn't realise the war ended when it did, forget Russia then. But Spain, Egypt, Iran; beforehand, they would have had to sail around France and through the Mediterranean, which is patently impossible, or fight their way through the Balkans and the British in the middle east. Now, they can simply ship it in via land. Controlling the sea becomes less relevant when the chokepoints on land are dissolved.

Egypt is British. Everything that is green and hasn't been defeated yet, can't be traded with. Except through neutrals who'll cash in én masse, as the dutch did historically.
Also, sure they can ship things from Iran and Spain by land. But that'd cost a lot and take loads of time.

But is that assumption true? (I'm actually asking, Economics as such aren't my field of expertise).
Also, wouldn't that strengthen economic ties between the US and the UK... hmm.... could we maybe see a :notEu: of the Anglophone areas sometime in the far future of this timeline, if it works politically?
Though back to topic: You only account for trade lost directly with Britain. Even though they can trade through France, international trade will still be suffering a heavy loss, especially should Britain move the blockade further west to include France.
(Though honestly I'm not a 100% sure that they'd be able to do that.)

I would assume so, nearly always. It seems to be a pattern, though perhaps there's exceptions, or it's just luck or something. And yes, USA and UK would strengthen links, definitely, regardless of what happens.

Anyway, international trade would be taking a hit, but if you compare their situation from before the treaty, it's obviously improved, whereas for Britain, it's probably worsened (but for the USA). Even if Britain's overall situation is better, Germany's is improving and Britain's is probably not improving, if not outright declining.

Mhm...

Germany was in a worse situation and is improving. Britain's situation is better but hasn't changed, in terms of trade.
But the improving of the german situation is not an eternal thing. It'll improve for a while before it'll balance. Only, will it be better, worse, or equal to/than at that point in time.

And this group did passably well in north Africa, as well as nearly everywhere else. Now, remove several of their biggest enemies, and surely they'll perform better against those remaining, no?

That group got pushed back by 1915. That isn't as well as everywhere else. And then it was continuously pushed back even deeper.
But my point is, we don't remove any enemies this group had.

No, we don't remove enemies from that group, but we remove enemies of its friends, so that its friends can come to help it. [/quote]
Friends who are weary of war and exhausted? While Britain can ask its mostly fresh friends to come and help it at that critical position without which the Germans can't save their colonies?

They weren't in the campaign, but they drew troops and resources away from it.

True. Except that troops die and resources get lost so: amount invested everywhere else > amount moveable to Suez
In addition any and all troops moved to Suez would have been in combat for a long time, and all of in in a different climate and terrain, if they'd be coming straight from Russia even a massive change.
Of course, the same applies for any British reinforcements to there, which I consider more than likely.
Also, you'd have the US who already are invested in this war. With the Summer offensive succeeding US troops would be dropped off in Suez instead. Or behind German lines, I guess.

The number of troops freed from fronts for Germany, Ottomans, Bulgaria & A-H > the number of troops freed for Britain and USA (and their other little allies like Portugal who I forget )[/quote]
13,250,000 - 2,037,000 - 4,247,143 = 6,965,857 <- All German troops remaining after the end of the OTL war.
4,743,826 - 116,708 - 204,002 = 4,423,116 <- All US troops remaining after the end of the OTL war.
8,841,541 - 1,116,371 - 2,090,212 - 5,135 = 5,629,823
So US+UK troops, in total, are actually close to double the German troops in total.
I rest my case.

Europe != Britain.
Again, you seem to miss my point: Germany can't do anything to Britain, but Britain has things that Germany wants. Britain is an obvious and safe position of strength if Germany doesn't want to stay at war and lacking colonies.

Germany will be able to do things to Britain sooner than Britain will be able to do things to Germany, is my point.

Except,this existed for D-Day and at Gallipoli there was that:

Basically, my point is, D-Day and Gallipoli != Landing in northern Germany during WW1.
And therefore not only is that not less likely than a German Invasion of the Isles, but I dare say that with France having fallen but the US in the war, one can expect it to happen.

My point is
"Russell Weigley has written that analysis of the campaign before World War II led to "a belief among most of the armed forces of the world" that amphibious assaults could not succeed against modern defences and that arguably this perception continued until the Normandy Landings in June 1944 despite some successful examples of amphibious operations earlier in the war, such as those in Italy, and at Tarawa and in the Gilbert Islands in the Pacific."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallipoli_ ... #Aftermath

But the northern German or Belgian coasts aren't such fortified coasts as the Atlantik wall was. There is absolutely no ground for a comparison to be made between Gallipoli and a landing on any part of the German coast. All those quotes I gave you show that they are miles apart. Your quote even bloody says is. "amphibious assaults could not succeed against modern defences".

That was the plan at the race. 2/3.

That was why the British built their ships. They never were directly threatened.

Together the US and Germany had more than Britain. So the US has at least 21 battleships of its own. 21 Battleships that would now be used in Britain, making it 70 against less than 30. Germany has much to build if they want to win.


Now, in this world, land warfare prevailed. Germany defeated all of its enemies except for Britain by land. Now try to convince the government to move money away from the glorious STRONK german army that defeated all its enemies in the field and to give it to the sailors close to mutiny.

So once more we sea that Britain was secure in its superiority.

Now remember that Germany, while not having to fight too much (unless it doesn't make peace with Japan, in which case it does have to fight, sometime in the future) still has to occupy basically half of Europe on their own.
That takes manpower and that takes money. Money and manpower that still can't be used in the navy, or to produce things for the navy.

See, the difference is that Germany didn't even consider that its army had to keep up with the British one. That was an absolute given. Not a snowball's chance in hell, that head to head, Britain's land forces could prevail over the Germans.

Except that Russia and France still exist. Germany beat France in 1870 and yet they returned. I don't believe anybody in that Germany would believe that they can let down their guard.
And the US is also a factor in this. I'm not sure how much the Germans expect of them, considering that their original impressions were from the Spanish-American war, IIRC, but if the Summer offensive is the PoD then they possibly saw some combat with the murricans.

What?

Just before France surrendered, it had to surrender. Don't worry about before France surrendering, because the POD is a few weeks before that.

Sure.

Ah, right, forgot Eastern Macedonia being Bulgarian. Scratch that then, I surrender on this single point.

we are reenacting WWI

I guess?

What's so funny, m8?

the scope, size and usefulness of this discussion

Definitely.

[Alleniana]

P2TM newspaper by The Starlight everyone!
@Jon, I'm in a rush, so no quotey cools

1. I consider the death of the butterfly the POD, thus the butterfly caused the POD by its death
2. Germany can Orient Express then Baghdad and Hejaz Railway to Suez, which is better than the 1914 option, which was "nope"
3. Japan will get that plus probably something from China. Apart from that, there's nothing left to give, and nothing even to fight against (except what was promised in the first place), except German New Guinea, which I'd half-suspect Japan doesn't want anyway.
4. Reparations... it's something.
5. Egypt is British, but now that the Germans can focus their aid on the Ottomans, I imagine it won't be for too much longer.
6. Yes, shipping to Iran and Spain is expensive, but at least it's possible now.
7. The improving of the German position will continue until its domination of Europe ends, no?
8. I said freed from fronts. At this point, I think it's a bit ridiculous to expect the USA to commit very much at all.
9. I would think northern German and Belgian coasts are a hell of a lot better developed than Gallipoli's. At the time that it was said, nothing even like the Atlantic Wall existed. "modern" = "not shitpot"
10. Russia is in the middle of a devastating civil war, France has just been beat. Germany's recovery up to WW2 was almost miraculous; I don't think they'd quite preparing for their enemies to get miracles.

[The Jonathanian States]

P2TM newspaper by The Starlight everyone!
@Jon, I'm in a rush, so no quotey cools

1. I consider the death of the butterfly the POD, thus the butterfly caused the POD by its death
2. Germany can Orient Express then Baghdad and Hejaz Railway to Suez, which is better than the 1914 option, which was "nope"
3. Japan will get that plus probably something from China. Apart from that, there's nothing left to give, and nothing even to fight against (except what was promised in the first place), except German New Guinea, which I'd half-suspect Japan doesn't want anyway.
4. Reparations... it's something.
5. Egypt is British, but now that the Germans can focus their aid on the Ottomans, I imagine it won't be for too much longer.
6. Yes, shipping to Iran and Spain is expensive, but at least it's possible now.
7. The improving of the German position will continue until its domination of Europe ends, no?
8. I said freed from fronts. At this point, I think it's a bit ridiculous to expect the USA to commit very much at all.
9. I would think northern German and Belgian coasts are a hell of a lot better developed than Gallipoli's. At the time that it was said, nothing even like the Atlantic Wall existed. "modern" = "not shitpot"
10. Russia is in the middle of a devastating civil war, France has just been beat. Germany's recovery up to WW2 was almost miraculous; I don't think they'd quite preparing for their enemies to get miracles.

Seems nice.

1 Er..... sure
2. But that doesn't work beyond Suez in the deserts and jungles of Africa or in the mountains of Persia.
3. And Indochina, which assuming it goes to Germany, they could occupy. and possibly ask to purchase. But sure, that seems like the reasonable middle way. It's just that only the Kurils and Sakhalin doesn't seem reasonable.
4. But not much, in the beginning. Not nearly enough.
5. I disagree.
6. Sure, I agree
7. Linearly it will continue until it has maximized its gains from what it controls now. Then it might have to fight Russia and France once more.
8. But those are US troops in the war. So those would actually be committed and/or on their way to Europe by your PoD. It's ridiculous for the US to just do nothing after the US government secured so many loans to the British government... If the British go down, they pull the US down as well.
9. Developed? Sure. Fortified? I'd bet money that they weren't. Ports and such? Sure. But the coasts themselves? I may be wrong, but to my knowledge that basically was the point of the Atlantic wall.
Exactly, the Atlantic Wall didn't exist during WW1. Which is why landing wouldn't be compared to Gallipoli.
10. France built a new line of fortifications between the Wars. So did Czechoslovakia. Seems they were preparing for a miracle...

[Kisinger]

Besides my main project(seeing as though I have till :NotSummer: till I have to finish it and stuff) I was wondering if anybody's tried a Roleplay similar to Game of Thrones nature? Like you have the various houses and their bannerman etc. basically a feudal roleplay?

[Altito Asmoro]

How long does it take to travel from America/Europe to Asia on 18th century? With ship.

[The Industrial States of Columbia]

How long does it take to travel from America/Europe to Asia on 18th century? With ship.

early or late 18th?

[Altito Asmoro]

How long does it take to travel from America/Europe to Asia on 18th century? With ship.

early or late 18th?

Early.

[The Jonathanian States]

So, I'm playing with the idea of making a timeline based on Leopold not declining the offer for Spanish Kingship in 1870.
Then, possibly with Prussian assurances for the territorial integrity of Spain he is crowned Spanish king, leading to a french declaration of war on Prussia, and possible on Spain as well.
Th war would happen in a similar fashion to OTL, and the a while after getting the new Spanish King the Hohenzollerns would have a new German Emperor too.

And then possibly ride on butterflies to the end of the century or shortly thereafter.

[Epraria]

So, I'm playing with the idea of making a timeline based on Leopold not declining the offer for Spanish Kingship in 1870.
Then, possibly with Prussian assurances for the territorial integrity of Spain he is crowned Spanish king, leading to a french declaration of war on Prussia, and possible on Spain as well.
Th war would happen in a similar fashion to OTL, and the a while after getting the new Spanish King the Hohenzollerns would have a new German Emperor too.

And then possibly ride on butterflies to the end of the century or shortly thereafter.

So basically Legacy of the Glorious?

[The Jonathanian States]

So, I'm playing with the idea of making a timeline based on Leopold not declining the offer for Spanish Kingship in 1870.
Then, possibly with Prussian assurances for the territorial integrity of Spain he is crowned Spanish king, leading to a french declaration of war on Prussia, and possible on Spain as well.
Th war would happen in a similar fashion to OTL, and the a while after getting the new Spanish King the Hohenzollerns would have a new German Emperor too.

And then possibly ride on butterflies to the end of the century or shortly thereafter.

So basically Legacy of the Glorious?

Skimming through it, it seems so. At least, in the basic PoD. I didn't read beyond that point, to be honest.

My intention was to have Prussia-Germany and Spain be involved in each others' history after the PoD, including possibly in whatever Great War would trigger sooner or later.
How close is that to that TL?

[Caltarania]

I am so responsible guys.

I left all my IT coursework to the last second and shit. Yay.

[The Jonathanian States]

I am so responsible guys.

I left all my IT coursework to the last second and shit. Yay.

I recall having done something similar, once.

Also, with IT you are referring to Information technology, and not some made-up Britishers' thing, right?

[The Kingdom of Glitter]

Oh hey I put off all my work as well.

I have to write a paper as to why the two party system sucks before I go to Disney World next Tuesday.

However I have the outline for that due tomorrow and I don't actually care bc I have a 99 for the year in that class.

[Auroya]

I am so responsible guys.

I left all my IT coursework to the last second and shit. Yay.

IT? ewww

Computer science is where it's at.

[Liecthenbourg]

I am so responsible guys.

I left all my IT coursework to the last second and shit. Yay.

I know this is irrelevant. But that flag is awesome.

[The Jonathanian States]

I am so responsible guys.

I left all my IT coursework to the last second and shit. Yay.

I know this is irrelevant. But that flag is awesome.

It just looked at what you are talking about. It is, that video was really hilarious.
EDIT: And it seems Calt agrees fully /EDIT

So basically Legacy of the Glorious?

Skimming through it, it seems so. At least, in the basic PoD. I didn't read beyond that point, to be honest.

My intention was to have Prussia-Germany and Spain be involved in each others' history after the PoD, including possibly in whatever Great War would trigger sooner or later.
How close is that to that TL?

So I continued on reading some....
It has some things I'd change, so far, but also raised ideas that I liked more than my own.

So I'd say that yes, the rp I thought of would take place in a world that, is, or at least was, similar to that of Legacy of the Glorious.

[Liecthenbourg]

@Jon.
It is a brilliant video.
Have you seen the bloopers esque one they did of it?

[The Jonathanian States]

@Jon.
It is a brilliant video.
Have you seen the bloopers esque one they did of it?

I recall having seen an extra-scene video, but I'm not sure if it had bloopers.

But have you seen Calt's transformation? It isn't only the flag that's new..... *Salutes the Park Manager*
EDIT: Also, it definitely is brilliant. /EDIT

[Liecthenbourg]

@Jon.
It is a brilliant video.
Have you seen the bloopers esque one they did of it?

I recall having seen an extra-scene video, but I'm not sure if it had bloopers.

But have you seen Calt's transformation? It isn't only the flag that's new..... *Salutes the Park Manager*
EDIT: Also, it definitely is brilliant. /EDIT

That's the one, extra scenes.

I'd also totally watch "Medieval Land Fun Time World" if it was a series.

[Reatra]

1600 AH Map

yey

[Caltarania]

I am so responsible guys.

I left all my IT coursework to the last second and shit. Yay.

I recall having done something similar, once.

Also, with IT you are referring to Information technology, and not some made-up Britishers' thing, right?

Yes, Information technology. More specifically, OCR Cambridge Technical which is a fancy word for BTEC ICT.

I am so responsible guys.

I left all my IT coursework to the last second and shit. Yay.

IT? ewww

Computer science is where it's at.

Honestly anything is better than BTEC ICT.

I am so responsible guys.

I left all my IT coursework to the last second and shit. Yay.

I know this is irrelevant. But that flag is awesome.

Ta'

@Jon.
It is a brilliant video.
Have you seen the bloopers esque one they did of it?

I recall having seen an extra-scene video, but I'm not sure if it had bloopers.

But have you seen Calt's transformation? It isn't only the flag that's new..... *Salutes the Park Manager*
EDIT: Also, it definitely is brilliant. /EDIT

heh

"Hey, we're gonna make this work; alright? We're gonna get enough money for your toenail transplants, I promise."

"Quick dad because the top of my toes are like really slippery."

"Well if I can just get this park to work I'll get that bonus from Mr. Lannister, and we can protect your toes."

[Epraria]

1600 AH Map

yey

*Sigh* are in love with Genoa? Because by god that is a Genoa wank.

[The Jonathanian States]

1600 AH Map

yey

Mother of wanks.
In fact, I dare say we might be facing a type IV. Definitely not as low as II.

I recall having seen an extra-scene video, but I'm not sure if it had bloopers.

But have you seen Calt's transformation? It isn't only the flag that's new..... *Salutes the Park Manager*
EDIT: Also, it definitely is brilliant. /EDIT

That's the one, extra scenes.

I'd also totally watch "Medieval Land Fun Time World" if it was a series.

Then yes.

Same.

1600 AH Map

yey

*Sigh* are in love with Genoa? Because by god that is a Genoa wank.

Yep.

I recall having done something similar, once.

Also, with IT you are referring to Information technology, and not some made-up Britishers' thing, right?

Yes, Information technology. More specifically, OCR Cambridge Technical which is a fancy word for BTEC ICT.

I see. What (type of-) languages?

I recall having seen an extra-scene video, but I'm not sure if it had bloopers.

But have you seen Calt's transformation? It isn't only the flag that's new..... *Salutes the Park Manager*
EDIT: Also, it definitely is brilliant. /EDIT

heh

"Hey, we're gonna make this work; alright? We're gonna get enough money for your toenail transplants, I promise."

"Quick dad because the top of my toes are like really slippery."

"Well if I can just get this park to work I'll get that bonus from Mr. Lannister, and we can protect your toes."

Petey is just the best character there. Followed by Eddie and then everybody else.

[Prusslandia]

Yknow what could use a RP? The Bronze Age, on another earth. Just men, no crazy creatures, but a struggle to survive and develop in the face of limited and unknown resources. One of my main gripes with alt-hist early civilization RPs is that everyone knows what works, so duh spam bronze.

So I might make a RP with different metals, different crops, hidden resources. Maybe even alter some fundamental laws and fauna. That could be interesting.

I'd be game. Certainly be interesting.