The Historical RP Group HQ 2

[Reatra]

wat ist dis

A discussion about the limitation of pre-modern modes of communication.

Or if you meant more generally what we are talking about and RP based on the S. M. Stirling book series Emberverse which depicts the collapse of modern civilization due to modern technology mysterious stopping to work, prompting the rise of a new dark age of survivalist groups, later fledgling countries struggling to establish themselves using pre-modern technology. Lots of fun in other words.

I can be inz?

That sounds super great.

[Of the Quendi]

I can be inz?

That sounds super great.

I assume so. I am not organizing I just saw some people talk about it and was hooked right away.

[Alleniana]

japon

White peace is white peace; the Kurils are a sweetener. A war between Japan and Germany would be no doubt quite detrimental to both, but also unprofitable, unless one side collapsed or something (highly unlikely). Though, as said, China is an oyster, so that might be brought into it.

Because they won the war

Britain is an island, and the colonies are over-seas. As long as the Navy hasn't been beaten, or something close enough to that, Germany having "won" won't matter in the negotiations as by that time Britain de-facto controlled the German colonies (except for parts of East-Africa and of Kaiser-Wilhelmsland).

If the war dragged on indefinitely,

Define war dragging on infinitely.... With Britain it would, France would just peace out on its own, sooner or later.

Germany would only consolidate its hold on Europe

Without a doubt.

and keep it from Allied influence

Yes.

(and thus increases its capabilities, including navally),

No. Assuming the war to go on, and the US to be guaranteeing British financial existence due to being in the war, German capabilities won't grow for quite some time. It'd take time until the east could properly organized, and in the west everything that could possibly become German already was occupied, more or less. Meanwhile the British would still blockade the Germans from gaining resources they need.

I would think the economic importance of Afroeurasia, which Germany and its allies/freshly defeated enemies cover most of, far greater than Britain + UK. Especially considering that now that mainland Europe is crushed, Germany would quite potentially send troops through the Balkans and the Ottomans to attack India and Africa. Well, not even Germany; all of their allies, in fact. Britain has lost the war, in that it can't be properly defeated, but it's never going to win in any sense of the word.

which is worth far more than any colonies could really ever be.

If that were correct, yes.

Wars in Europe have always decided the fates of the colonies.

True, in general. Only that if you control neither Britain nor any colonies, while aforementioned Britain controls both itself and all the colonies (including yours), you hardly demand anything from them.
Also, Colonial wars can be determined by the colonies if at home the Status Quo hasn't changed (significantly).

Not simply control Britain; threaten it, and have nominally won a war against it. Britain amphibiously landing to attack Germany any time soon would be absolutely ridiculous. Germany breaking out and defeating the British fleet, not so much.

Egypt, Sudan, Arabia, that's quite a lot to give to an Empire that was getting its ass kicked hard, if I may put it so bluntly.
Note also that Egypt and the British areas of Arabia are Sovereign States, some of which were under British Protection. Oh, and one that was actually allied with the Ottomans and then got nommed in the aftermath of the war.
Though if Egypt goes, then I suppose Sudan could go as well.

I was thinking Libya wouldn't be a tall order to return,

No, because it comes from Italy. Though it would decisively crush any Italian ambitions and probably lead to Italy being Entente in the next war.[/quote]
It was taken scarcely 2 years ago, and is, frankly, just a big desert with a few coastal settlements. Malta, Corsica, Savoy and some other colonies would be more than enough to fit the bill. France is surely a much more prestigious target than Ottoman Africa.

Anyway, I'm wondering what I could get out of this. Maybe, following Austro-Hungarian footsteps, the Ottomans go full-reform? The Young Turks lose their steam and instead the Ottomans begin to federalise? Libya-Tunisia(-Algeria?) as one division, Egypt-Sudan another, Turkey proper and the Balkans yet another, and then some sort of Arabian division to get all the Rub al'Khali back on side. And, I dunno, maybe Mesopotamia attached to Turkey/semi-partitioned. Heh.

It does give the ailing Ottomans huge administrative tasks,

Administrative tasks? No, my friend, those aren't their largest issue.

though, so I think I may reduce things, or even assign Libya to the Khedivate.

I don't know. Maybe make Libya an "independent" Kingdom.

Administration in the sense of keeping their crap together. The Arab Revolt would have been at least postponed significantly if the Ottomans had been more competent, and less beleaguered in managing the empire they had left.

This scenario may become an RP, but not for a long time. I hope to propaganda the MiM crowd into a non-timeskip reboot first.

[Caltarania]

-cries-

[Alleniana]

-cries-

calt pls

[Caltarania]

-cries-

calt pls

;_;

[Alleniana]

calt pls

;_;

k
edit: neu poll

[Epraria]

All what are you and John discussing?

[Alleniana]

All what are you and John discussing?

WWI scenario where Germany wins. Basically, we suppose that Germany gets a victory by taking/nearly taking Paris in 1917-ish, and then see what is most likely to happen from there on.

[Epraria]

All what are you and John discussing?

WWI scenario where Germany wins. Basically, we suppose that Germany gets a victory by taking/nearly taking Paris in 1917-ish, and then see what is most likely to happen from there on.

Oh well didn't John have a thread for this at one point? Also cool.

[The Jonathanian States]

japon

White peace is white peace; the Kurils are a sweetener.

And what stops Japan from demanding the deal to be sweetened some more? It would still remain a formal white peace, without Germany actually loosing anything compared to the status quo ante bellum, if you want, but them going for only the Kurils simply doesn't make sense.

A war between Japan and Germany would be no doubt quite detrimental to both,

Indeed. Only that one of them has much to gain and the other much to lose.

but also unprofitable,

True, assuming it would see actual warfare, which I doubt.

unless one side collapsed or something (highly unlikely).

*glances at OTL* Or, you know, Germany being to exhausted to mount an expedition deep into east asia for some land, after having just fought a sluggish war in the west.

Though, as said, China is an oyster, so that might be brought into it.

I guess so.

I would think the economic importance of Afroeurasia, which Germany and its allies/freshly defeated enemies cover most of,

Eh.... that depends...
Even a country in panic won't let itself just get randomly annexed, Russia, while defeated, is not nearly controlled, China.... if there would even have been combat between Germans and chinese it probably was just as minor as their part in the peace
I mean, sure, Germany defeated large swaths of Afroeurasia. But that doesn't mean that suddenly all its economic woes are gone.

far greater than Britain + UK.

Wat?

Especially considering that now that mainland Europe is crushed,

Yes

Germany would quite potentially send troops through the Balkans and the Ottomans to attack India

Except that they'd have to pass through a hostile Persia, possibly through that Graveyard of Empires^TM, and then they'd reach a climate that except for a few colonial troops they haven't got any experience in.
Also, Britain does have quite an Army in India.

and Africa.

Once more Water is a border, eh?

Well, not even Germany; all of their allies, in fact. Britain has lost the war, in that it can't be properly defeated, but it's never going to win in any sense of the word.

Their allies are? Two empires close to collapse and a grouping of minor and/or new states?
Britain has lost the war, Aye. Britain's allies and friends back on the continent are going to get punished for that. But India wouldn't fall, I don't consider it reasonable for Suez to fall easily, and Britain itself also won't fall.
It cannot win, but it also cannot be conquered, and they know that the Germans know that.

If that were correct, yes.

True, in general. Only that if you control neither Britain nor any colonies, while aforementioned Britain controls both itself and all the colonies (including yours), you hardly demand anything from them.
Also, Colonial wars can be determined by the colonies if at home the Status Quo hasn't changed (significantly).

Not simply control Britain; threaten it,

Threaten it how? Britain still rules the waves and Germany lost more or less every naval engagement in the North Sea. The HSF is devastated and close to mutiny.
Without the Grand Fleet of Britain somehow decapitated or limited, or somehow butterflying their strength relative to the HSF (by increasing the latter or decreasing the former) Britain is safe and sound.

and have nominally won a war against it.

Nominally, Aye. Does that give Germany more ships? Does the end of the war in europe cause British ships to explode?

Britain amphibiously landing to attack Germany any time soon would be absolutely ridiculous.

I agree fully.

Germany breaking out and defeating the British fleet, not so much.

Yes, yes it is. The HSF was not the BGF's equal, definitely not at the end of the war, after having suffered defeat after defeat. I'm all for Germany being OP and all that, you know me, you might have noticed some of the debates in my old Eagles, Lions, and Bears, but the HSF will not successfully beat the BGF at this point in time assuming a PoD no earlier than the Summer Offensive, heck probably even not if it can be as early as July 1914.

It was taken scarcely 2 years ago, and is, frankly, just a big desert with a few coastal settlements.

Yes. And most colonies in general were just money-dumps. Poznan was in large parts Polish when lost by Germany, and Alsace-Lorraine was mostly German by 1914, IIRC.

Malta, Corsica, Savoy and some other colonies would be more than enough to fit the bill.

That, though, I probably agree on.

France is surely a much more prestigious target than Ottoman Africa.

Also, a much more resisting target.

Anyway, I'm wondering what I could get out of this. Maybe, following Austro-Hungarian footsteps, the Ottomans go full-reform?

That isn't something I have quite seen, I believe. Kaiserreich has it somewhat, IIRC, but I'm not sure. It could be interesting.

The Young Turks lose their steam and instead the Ottomans begin to federalise?

I'm not sure if that's the way. What I'd propose is that in full line with calling WW1 a Jihad and calling upon faithful muslims to fight against the Entente, the Ottomans become less a Turkish Empire and more a muslim Empire, with focus on the Sultan being Caliph, placing religion high while discarding nationality.
But federalization might also be an interesting path.

Libya-Tunisia(-Algeria?) as one division,

Libya, of course. But Tunisia and Algeria? Didn't you want to give something to Italy? They'll want at least some part of North Africa, I'd say.

Egypt-Sudan another,

Mhm....

Turkey proper and the Balkans yet another,

How much would these Ottomans have in the Balkans?
If it is much more than OTL I'd propose letting that be separate.

and then some sort of Arabian division to get all the Rub al'Khali back on side.

I guess. Possibly involve the Sheikh, was it Sheikh?, of Mecca and Medina, Hedjaz that is, there in order to placate the Hashimids.

And, I dunno, maybe Mesopotamia attached to Turkey/semi-partitioned. Heh.

I'd say partition it.

Administrative tasks? No, my friend, those aren't their largest issue.

I don't know. Maybe make Libya an "independent" Kingdom.

Administration in the sense of keeping their crap together.

That too.

The Arab Revolt would have been at least postponed significantly if the Ottomans had been more competent, and less beleaguered in managing the empire they had left.

The Revolt was triggered in '16 by the British. So that significantly moves forward your PoD from the Kaiserschlacht. Also, you'd have to find how to prevent it.

This scenario may become an RP, but not for a long time.

Awww damn
Then what is the scenario for?

I hope to propaganda the MiM crowd into a non-timeskip reboot first.

Sure, do that.

All what are you and John discussing?

WWI scenario where Germany wins. Basically, we suppose that Germany gets a victory by taking/nearly taking Paris in 1917-ish, and then see what is most likely to happen from there on.

And interestingly enough, I'm not the one advocating a German-wank, this time. Mind you, it's far from a German-screw, but it's, I'd say, more moderate and realistic(Al will probably disagree on at least the latter) than what he proposes.

WWI scenario where Germany wins. Basically, we suppose that Germany gets a victory by taking/nearly taking Paris in 1917-ish, and then see what is most likely to happen from there on.

Oh well didn't John have a thread for this at one point? Also cool.

Similar result, completely different PoD.

[Epraria]

Well i will support the idea that the HSF can't defeat the BGF without an much earlier PoD or that Germany can't really get into Britain's colonies.

[The Jonathanian States]

Well i will support the idea that the HSF can't defeat the BGF without an much earlier PoD or that Germany can't really get into Britain's colonies.

Huzzah!
Especially not after the war. *glances at Kiel*

Also, looking at the poll, I just noticed that I crossed the ten-thousand posts some time ago.

[Epraria]

So is suppose Britain and Germany have a sort of peace with honor type of deal with neither two of them really losing anything to each other?

[The Jonathanian States]

So is suppose Britain and Germany have a sort of peace with honor type of deal with neither two of them really losing anything to each other?

That's how I'd do it with this PoD.

In order to reach my result, which was a swap of colonies which, while giving Britain a net loss, I'd say is better than simply losing, I had a harsher PoD than here. I completely cut out the US, including their unsecured loans, causing Britain to be more or less alone and close to bankruptcy for some time. And then Germany threatened to resort to Unrestricted Submarine warfare once more.

So yes, a peace with honor is what I'd do here.

[Alleniana]

White peace is white peace; the Kurils are a sweetener.

And what stops Japan from demanding the deal to be sweetened some more? It would still remain a formal white peace, without Germany actually loosing anything compared to the status quo ante bellum, if you want, but them going for only the Kurils simply doesn't make sense.

Well, what else could it want? Germany certainly isn't going to hand the entirety of China over, by virtue of the treaty ports, and sure, maybe northern Sakhalin, but that's pretty much nothing, and Japan could easily seize it with no repercussions anyway. Nobody likes commies, and nobody cares about Siberia.

A war between Japan and Germany would be no doubt quite detrimental to both,

Indeed. Only that one of them has much to gain and the other much to lose.

I don't think German New Guinea is very much to lose. It might be comparable to Taiwan.

but also unprofitable,

True, assuming it would see actual warfare, which I doubt.

What else would a war see?

unless one side collapsed or something (highly unlikely).

*glances at OTL* Or, you know, Germany being to exhausted to mount an expedition deep into east asia for some land, after having just fought a sluggish war in the west.

For some land? Germany fighting an offensive war in this regard is a bit strange.

I would think the economic importance of Afroeurasia, which Germany and its allies/freshly defeated enemies cover most of,

Eh.... that depends...
Even a country in panic won't let itself just get randomly annexed, Russia, while defeated, is not nearly controlled, China.... if there would even have been combat between Germans and chinese it probably was just as minor as their part in the peace
I mean, sure, Germany defeated large swaths of Afroeurasia. But that doesn't mean that suddenly all its economic woes are gone.

Yes, its own woes aren't gone, but it's going to get better at controlling them due to all the war reparations and domination of the continent, while Britain is only going to decline, blocked off from so much of Europe.

far greater than Britain + UK.

Wat?

I meant USA

Especially considering that now that mainland Europe is crushed,

Yes

Germany would quite potentially send troops through the Balkans and the Ottomans to attack India

Except that they'd have to pass through a hostile Persia, possibly through that Graveyard of Empires^TM, and then they'd reach a climate that except for a few colonial troops they haven't got any experience in.
Also, Britain does have quite an Army in India.

Never mind India. I was only going to type Africa, but I left for a bit then came back and forgot not to.

and Africa.

Once more Water is a border, eh?

This is different, though. This is all the Central Powers with direct land access against British colonial, and possibly American expeditionary troops. I mean, if they were in it with a chance in the midst of WWI, and then you take France, Italy and Russia out of the equation, I don't think the British are going to have a good time.

Well, not even Germany; all of their allies, in fact. Britain has lost the war, in that it can't be properly defeated, but it's never going to win in any sense of the word.

Their allies are? Two empires close to collapse and a grouping of minor and/or new states?
Britain has lost the war, Aye. Britain's allies and friends back on the continent are going to get punished for that. But India wouldn't fall, I don't consider it reasonable for Suez to fall easily, and Britain itself also won't fall.
It cannot win, but it also cannot be conquered, and they know that the Germans know that.

Well, not being conquered, and having vanquished all your enemies except two overseas ones, are a long way apart. Germany has the upper hand, simply put.

Not simply control Britain; threaten it,

Threaten it how? Britain still rules the waves and Germany lost more or less every naval engagement in the North Sea. The HSF is devastated and close to mutiny.
Without the Grand Fleet of Britain somehow decapitated or limited, or somehow butterflying their strength relative to the HSF (by increasing the latter or decreasing the former) Britain is safe and sound.

and have nominally won a war against it.

Nominally, Aye. Does that give Germany more ships? Does the end of the war in europe cause British ships to explode?

Britain amphibiously landing to attack Germany any time soon would be absolutely ridiculous.

I agree fully.

Germany breaking out and defeating the British fleet, not so much.

Yes, yes it is. The HSF was not the BGF's equal, definitely not at the end of the war, after having suffered defeat after defeat. I'm all for Germany being OP and all that, you know me, you might have noticed some of the debates in my old Eagles, Lions, and Bears, but the HSF will not successfully beat the BGF at this point in time assuming a PoD no earlier than the Summer Offensive, heck probably even not if it can be as early as July 1914.

Fast forward 20 years (or, at least, pretend you're a person living in 1917 who is imagining the world 20 years from now). Is Britain landing in Germany preposterous? Yes. is Germany's fleet competing with Britain's? No, comparatively. They're on different magnitudes.

It was taken scarcely 2 years ago, and is, frankly, just a big desert with a few coastal settlements.

Yes. And most colonies in general were just money-dumps. Poznan was in large parts Polish when lost by Germany, and Alsace-Lorraine was mostly German by 1914, IIRC.

Malta, Corsica, Savoy and some other colonies would be more than enough to fit the bill.

That, though, I probably agree on.

France is surely a much more prestigious target than Ottoman Africa.

Also, a much more resisting target.

Well, no, because it just surrendered, and unlike Britain, it's unable to fight on, because if it does, Paris is 'splodey. Not to mention, it's kind of hard to deal with anyone in the Sahara, and much harder when you've little colonial experience, and they're of different race, culture, religion, language, etc. Also, not quite sure of your point about Poznan and A-L. I mean that Libya is rubbish, and simply put, there's very little you could get out of it, compared to nearly anywhere else on earth.

Anyway, I'm wondering what I could get out of this. Maybe, following Austro-Hungarian footsteps, the Ottomans go full-reform?

That isn't something I have quite seen, I believe. Kaiserreich has it somewhat, IIRC, but I'm not sure. It could be interesting.

The Young Turks lose their steam and instead the Ottomans begin to federalise?

I'm not sure if that's the way. What I'd propose is that in full line with calling WW1 a Jihad and calling upon faithful muslims to fight against the Entente, the Ottomans become less a Turkish Empire and more a muslim Empire, with focus on the Sultan being Caliph, placing religion high while discarding nationality.
But federalization might also be an interesting path.

I was only figuring federalisation to give Egypt/Sudan/Libya more autonomy, and considering the loose nature of British-Arab relations, which would be hard to turn over to a harsher Ottoman relationship. But, yeah, some kind of derpreforms.

Libya, of course. But Tunisia and Algeria? Didn't you want to give something to Italy? They'll want at least some part of North Africa, I'd say.

I might leave Algeria to France, considering the Pied Noirs. Or maybe Italy can get Morocco or something. Who cares, it's all Africa.

Egypt-Sudan another,

Mhm....

Turkey proper and the Balkans yet another,

How much would these Ottomans have in the Balkans?
If it is much more than OTL I'd propose letting that be separate.

No, just Thrace. Bulgaria was a Central Power, so nothing to take from them.

and then some sort of Arabian division to get all the Rub al'Khali back on side.

I guess. Possibly involve the Sheikh, was it Sheikh?, of Mecca and Medina, Hedjaz that is, there in order to placate the Hashimids.

And, I dunno, maybe Mesopotamia attached to Turkey/semi-partitioned. Heh.

I'd say partition it.

Administration in the sense of keeping their crap together.

That too.

The Arab Revolt would have been at least postponed significantly if the Ottomans had been more competent, and less beleaguered in managing the empire they had left.

The Revolt was triggered in '16 by the British. So that significantly moves forward your PoD from the Kaiserschlacht. Also, you'd have to find how to prevent it.

Yeah, partition Mesopotamia, get the Ottoman act together, rub out the Rub al'Khali rebellions and reform.

This scenario may become an RP, but not for a long time.

Awww damn
Then what is the scenario for?

fun with discussion

[Alleniana]

Ok, because these quote monsters are getting a bit much, let's simplify to:
- Actual specifics of why Germany won (I'm currently thinking a more considered Germany advance in the Spring Offensive, followed up by a more coordinated attack that forced Paris to capitulate)
- Britain vs Germany on colonial peace terms due to balance of power
- Japan vs Germany on peace terms due to sides' capabilities
- Fate of the Ottomans
- whatever the hell Italy is doing

[Auroya]

septemberprogramm gogogo

[The Jonathanian States]

septemberprogramm gogogo

Informal proposal, but assuming a full german victory, that'd be roughly the plan.

Ok, because these quote monsters are getting a bit much, let's simplify to:

But it's hard to simplify this as these things interact. The "how" for Germany's victory is critical to the British-German peace and to an extent to the Japanese-German one. So is the Ottoman fate dependent on at least time of German victory, and the German victory could be affected by Italy.

- Actual specifics of why Germany won (I'm currently thinking a more considered Germany advance in the Spring Offensive, followed up by a more coordinated attack that forced Paris to capitulate)

That is possible, IIRC, but hard to achieve unless your actual PoD is earlier. I may be wrong, 'tis a long time since I last dug into the topic.

- Britain vs Germany on colonial peace terms due to balance of power

Roughly equal as Britain also controls all German colonies that Japan doesn't.

- Japan vs Germany on peace terms due to sides' capabilities

Japan might gain some through a loophole of sessions, or directly, but no de-facto white Peace.

- Fate of the Ottomans

Either collapse or some sort of escape, depends on if they are fed and on how/when Germany won.

- whatever the hell Italy is doing

See earlier.

Well, what else could it want?

Sakhalin? German Pacific? Indochina? Treaty ports?

Germany certainly isn't going to hand the entirety of China over,

Because it can't.

by virtue of the treaty ports,

I'd say giving Japan one or two is quite reasonable, considering they hold Qingdao and will hold all others once they are de-jure German.

and sure, maybe northern Sakhalin, but that's pretty much nothing,

It's something.

and Japan could easily seize it with no repercussions anyway.

But that doesn't mean that having Russia formally cede it could simplify things.

Nobody likes commies, and nobody cares about Siberia.

Germany somewhat liked foreign commies. *cough*Lenin'sfieldtrip*cough*

I don't think German New Guinea is very much to lose.

All of east asia as a whole, including, for example, Indochina. But if it isn't that much to lose, why not just hand it over. It might help appease Japan and was logistically shitty anyway.

It might be comparable to Taiwan.

Ok.

What else would a war see?

8 months of nothing.

For some land? Germany fighting an offensive war in this regard is a bit strange.

Japan would hold any de-jure German land before Germany could be there. So yes, unless it negotiates a peace with Japan, it'll be invading everything it wants, and more maybe.

Yes, its own woes aren't gone,

True.

but it's going to get better at controlling them due to all the war reparations

Considering everybody they could get reparations from is wrecked in some form or another, it'd take time until those trees bear fruit.

and domination of the continent,

That, as well, doesn't suddenly make resources appear out of thin air.

For both of those, remember that Germany itself was quite close to starvation. (Possibly a slight exaggeration, but my point stands).

while Britain is only going to decline,

True.

blocked off from so much of Europe.

mhm.

British decline doesn't fix Germany. Being able to actually trade overseas and such would help.

I meant USA

So USA+UK is far smaller than Europe in what?

Never mind India. I was only going to type Africa, but I left for a bit then came back and forgot not to.

Mhm.

This is different, though.

Not quite.

This is all the Central Powers with direct land access against British colonial, and possibly American expeditionary troops.

I did tell you how except for nearly-collapsing Germany everybody else is either minor or new or weak or multiple of those?
No, but seriously, you say "all the Central Powers" as if all of mankind stands united. We are talking about a collection of eastern-european states, two multi-national empires that historically were shattered at this point in time, and Germany, which was defeated here, OTL.

mean, if they were in it with a chance in the midst of WWI, and then you take France, Italy and Russia out of the equation, I don't think the British are going to have a good time.

Except that we add the US into the equation, while neither Russia, nor Italy or France were part of the Suez campaign. Also, any Germans that we add to this equation will have come from war. Tired out.

Well, not being conquered, and having vanquished all your enemies except two overseas ones, are a long way apart.

Your point?

Germany has the upper hand, simply put.

Except it doesn't, as much as Britain or the US are regarded. Germany can strut around Europe as much as it wants, everywhere else Britain is in control and will continue to be so for the close future. Germany has the upper hand on Russia, Belgium, France and Italy, but not on Britain.

Fast forward 20 years (or, at least, pretend you're a person living in 1917 who is imagining the world 20 years from now).

Ok.

Is Britain landing in Germany preposterous?

Britain alone? Yes.
Together with the US? I could see that happening, depending on how those 20 years went.

Yes.

No.

is Germany's fleet competing with Britain's?

Yes.

No, comparatively.

Yes, even comparatively. Trust me, it took me a bloody long time to reach that point. Basically, the time between Gott Mit Uns and OELaB.

They're on different magnitudes.

Except they aren't.

Well, no, because it just surrendered,

I'm talking about before it did.

and unlike Britain, it's unable to fight on, because if it does, Paris is 'splodey.

Agreed.

Not to mention, it's kind of hard to deal with anyone in the Sahara, and much harder when you've little colonial experience, and they're of different race, culture, religion, language, etc. Also, not quite sure of your point about Poznan and A-L. I mean that Libya is rubbish, and simply put, there's very little you could get out of it, compared to nearly anywhere else on earth.

My point is that you can attribute much more to land than it actually was for you. A-L was mostly German once France got it back. Poznan which the Nazis returned to Germany rather than leave in the General-Gouvernement, and for which they were originally voted in, was mostly polish, IIRC. Colonies which people fought over so much, cost the countries more money than they were worth. So Italy may have lost cheap lands, but that doesn't make it less a loss. That's my point.

I was only figuring federalisation to give Egypt/Sudan/Libya more autonomy, and considering the loose nature of British-Arab relations, which would be hard to turn over to a harsher Ottoman relationship. But, yeah, some kind of derpreforms.

I guess.

No, just Thrace. Bulgaria was a Central Power, so nothing to take from them.

Greece wasn't. Serbia wasn't.
But ok, in that case, Balkans should indeed be together with Anatolia.

Yeah, partition Mesopotamia, get the Ottoman act together, rub out the Rub al'Khali rebellions and reform.

Mhm.

fun with discussion

Bloody hell.

[Alleniana]

septemberprogramm gogogo

Informal proposal, but assuming a full german victory, that'd be roughly the plan.

Ok, because these quote monsters are getting a bit much, let's simplify to:

But it's hard to simplify this as these things interact. The "how" for Germany's victory is critical to the British-German peace and to an extent to the Japanese-German one. So is the Ottoman fate dependent on at least time of German victory, and the German victory could be affected by Italy.

- Actual specifics of why Germany won (I'm currently thinking a more considered Germany advance in the Spring Offensive, followed up by a more coordinated attack that forced Paris to capitulate)

That is possible, IIRC, but hard to achieve unless your actual PoD is earlier. I may be wrong, 'tis a long time since I last dug into the topic.

Hard to acheive? Pssh, butterfly armies

- Britain vs Germany on colonial peace terms due to balance of power

Roughly equal as Britain also controls all German colonies that Japan doesn't.

But leaning towards Germany, because there's pretty much nothing except colonies and navy going for the Brits, and if the colonies get taken by land or something, which is not quite ridiculous, then the navy is ded too.

- Japan vs Germany on peace terms due to sides' capabilities

Japan might gain some through a loophole of sessions, or directly, but no de-facto white Peace.

De jure white peace, though.

- Fate of the Ottomans

Either collapse or some sort of escape, depends on if they are fed and on how/when Germany won.

Yeah, some weird stuff. Probably something like back in the times of the Khedivate, except less weird.

Well, what else could it want?

Sakhalin? German Pacific? Indochina? Treaty ports?

Germany certainly isn't going to hand the entirety of China over,

Because it can't.

by virtue of the treaty ports,

I'd say giving Japan one or two is quite reasonable, considering they hold Qingdao and will hold all others once they are de-jure German.

Except that the treaty ports pretty much control Chinese trade, so Germany would be essentially handing over everything of China that's useful to a coloniser to Japan if it surrendered all the ports. Also, considering the disdain the Brits and French had for the Japanese, I wouldn't be surprised if they handed over the keys to Germans without waiting for the Japanese.

and sure, maybe northern Sakhalin, but that's pretty much nothing,

It's something.

and Japan could easily seize it with no repercussions anyway.

But that doesn't mean that having Russia formally cede it could simplify things.

Nobody likes commies, and nobody cares about Siberia.

Germany somewhat liked foreign commies. *cough*Lenin'sfieldtrip*cough*

*murica* TIME TO REMOVE SOME COMMIES

All of east asia as a whole, including, for example, Indochina. But if it isn't that much to lose, why not just hand it over. It might help appease Japan and was logistically shitty anyway.

Well, then, Germany would have to lay claim to Indochina first. And handing over things to someone you were supposed to beat in a war is bad for prestige.

Ok.

8 months of nothing.

Well, even that ended with actual fighting.

Japan would hold any de-jure German land before Germany could be there. So yes, unless it negotiates a peace with Japan, it'll be invading everything it wants, and more maybe.

Hmm, fair point.

True.

Considering everybody they could get reparations from is wrecked in some form or another, it'd take time until those trees bear fruit.

Time, but not too long. The difference is being able to trade with the European continent and not.

That, as well, doesn't suddenly make resources appear out of thin air.

Not out of thin air, but out of others' pockets.

For both of those, remember that Germany itself was quite close to starvation. (Possibly a slight exaggeration, but my point stands).

And considering how well it did even so, its current access to breadbaskets everywhere is going to quickly alleviate that. Britain has no such equivalent for its own resource shortages.

True.

mhm.

British decline doesn't fix Germany. Being able to actually trade overseas and such would help.

It can, now. It can trade with France and Soviet Russia and Iran and Spain and Egypt if it so wants.

So USA+UK is far smaller than Europe in what?

Economic significance. Assuming that the smaller partner in bilateral trade always suffers more when trade is cut, then USA and UK will suffer more.

Mhm.

Not quite.

I did tell you how except for nearly-collapsing Germany everybody else is either minor or new or weak or multiple of those?
No, but seriously, you say "all the Central Powers" as if all of mankind stands united. We are talking about a collection of eastern-european states, two multi-national empires that historically were shattered at this point in time, and Germany, which was defeated here, OTL.

And this group did passably well in north Africa, as well as nearly everywhere else. Now, remove several of their biggest enemies, and surely they'll perform better against those remaining, no?

Except that we add the US into the equation, while neither Russia, nor Italy or France were part of the Suez campaign. Also, any Germans that we add to this equation will have come from war. Tired out.

They weren't in the campaign, but they drew troops and resources away from it.

Your point?

Except it doesn't, as much as Britain or the US are regarded. Germany can strut around Europe as much as it wants, everywhere else Britain is in control and will continue to be so for the close future. Germany has the upper hand on Russia, Belgium, France and Italy, but not on Britain.

Europe & immediate vicinity > everywhere else

Ok.

Britain alone? Yes.
Together with the US? I could see that happening, depending on how those 20 years went.

As a person with decades' foresight, no. But as a person in 1917 who's just seen Gallipoli, which was still being used as an important case study when planning D-Day (and also being held up as a reason it couldn't work), it would seem ridiculous.

No.

Yes.

Yes, even comparatively. Trust me, it took me a bloody long time to reach that point. Basically, the time between Gott Mit Uns and OELaB.

Except they aren't.

Then surely Britain has nothing to fear? What was with the naval arms race, then? Germany would be silly to worry about the possibility of an amphibious landing at this point. Britain would be silly not to worry about keeping ahead of Europe's navies.

I'm talking about before it did.

Just before it did, it had to anyway.

Agreed.

My point is that you can attribute much more to land than it actually was for you. A-L was mostly German once France got it back. Poznan which the Nazis returned to Germany rather than leave in the General-Gouvernement, and for which they were originally voted in, was mostly polish, IIRC. Colonies which people fought over so much, cost the countries more money than they were worth. So Italy may have lost cheap lands, but that doesn't make it less a loss. That's my point.

You can, but you can do the same to lands that you've gained.

I guess.

Greece wasn't. Serbia wasn't.
But ok, in that case, Balkans should indeed be together with Anatolia.

Greece and Serbia didn't border the Ottomans, and I'm not sure they want to be taking lands that'll require cooperation with Bulgaria to get to.

Mhm.

Bloody hell.

top kek

[Reatra]

I want to read all of that....

But I won't.



Anyway, I think a cool idea for an RP would be like a god RP, start with a tiny settlement somewhere on earth, primitive technology, guide your people, etc.

[The Vekta-Helghast Empire]

I want to read all of that....

But I won't.



Anyway, I think a cool idea for an RP would be like a god RP, start with a tiny settlement somewhere on earth, primitive technology, guide your people, etc.

Depending on how it's done, it could be fun.

[Alleniana]

I want to read all of that....

But I won't.



Anyway, I think a cool idea for an RP would be like a god RP, start with a tiny settlement somewhere on earth, primitive technology, guide your people, etc.

>god
problem with those is that it's just too undefined

[Paketo]

I want to read all of that....

But I won't.



Anyway, I think a cool idea for an RP would be like a god RP, start with a tiny settlement somewhere on earth, primitive technology, guide your people, etc.

>god
problem with those is that it's just too undefined

if we go by the greeks, even though there were gods of certain things, they could do anything they wanted

[Alleniana]

I'd much rather just a Ho?-esque RP where god is the body of studies we've collected to handle the RP's realism.