The Last Civilization - OOC/Signups

[G-Tech Corporation]

So can we have a neutral religion mechanism, like implemented in the actual Civilization game series? Maybe have an optional seventh score category?
Religion has often been the driving force behind good as well as bad intentions in humans, but it is in itself not worse than politics for example.

It is neutral; you can get a religion for nothing but Happiness.

[Harkback Union]

But imagine all the science they could have had if they didn't kill all the people who didn't agree with their doctrines.

Religion doesn't inherently mean killing those who don't believe the same, are you some kind of generalizing antitheist? Only Islam and Christianity are looking to convert the worlds, and most religions are peaceful, including Islam and Christianity.
As I had feared, you confused "religion" and "extremism" (or "fundamentalism"), The Islamic world was the pinnacle of science in the Middle Ages, not despite, but actually (partly, at least) because of their religion.
The Catholic Church and the Islamic World kept the records of ancient philosophers, who else would've gotten lost in the attacks of Barbarians after the Fall of Rome, making the Renaissance possible in the first place. They were not the reason the Dark Ages came to be, they were one of the lights in the dark age.
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Throughout history, Religous people were almost always Fundamentalist. The slightest difference in people's belief system was enough reason to start wars and genocides (though Same applies for Ideologies and ethnic stuff). Just because religious societies invented a few things with very, very slow pace doesn't mean that they actually helped science advance. What science needs is freedom of thought, Stable societies (people not killing each other too much) and proper education system. Religious Feudalism failed to provide these conditions for centuries. If it wasn't for the few enlightened leaders who started humanities enlightenment by introducing religious tolerance and financing education and science, we would still be lighting candles at night.

[Akksum]

its like "Oh you spent so much time on this? Well... I'm going to take this for free now "

[Jute]

Religion doesn't inherently mean killing those who don't believe the same, are you some kind of generalizing antitheist? Only Islam and Christianity are looking to convert the worlds, and most religions are peaceful, including Islam and Christianity.
As I had feared, you confused "religion" and "extremism" (or "fundamentalism"), The Islamic world was the pinnacle of science in the Middle Ages, not despite, but actually (partly, at least) because of their religion.
The Catholic Church and the Islamic World kept the records of ancient philosophers, who else would've gotten lost in the attacks of Barbarians after the Fall of Rome, making the Renaissance possible in the first place. They were not the reason the Dark Ages came to be, they were one of the lights in the dark age.
.

Throughout history, Religous people were almost always Fundamentalist. The slightest difference in people's belief system was enough reason to start wars and genocides (though Same applies for Ideologies and ethnic stuff). Just because religious societies invented a few things with very, very slow pace doesn't mean that they actually helped science advance. What science needs is freedom of thought, Stable societies (people not killing each other too much) and proper education system. Religious Feudalism failed to provide these conditions for centuries. If it wasn't for the few enlightened leaders who started humanities enlightenment by introducing religious tolerance and financing education and science, we would still be lighting candles at night.

Um, religious societies kind of invented everything until the 20th century. Because there was no society without religion. And freedom for science is exactly what some religious people achieved (Francis Bacon, for example) but in general, there's no clear-cut conflict between them. Galileo and Darwin were two times where they clashed, but in general they nourish each other. (“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” ― Albert Einstein )
Religious tolerance was already known to Islam in the Middle Age. I can provide you with sources, too. And most importantly, like I said: "The Catholic Church and the Islamic World kept the records of ancient philosophers, who else would've gotten lost in the attacks of Barbarians after the Fall of Rome, making the Renaissance possible in the first place. They were not the reason the Dark Ages came to be, they were one of the lights in the dark age." There would be no modern science, or at least none as advanced as today's were it not for Catholicism and the Islam.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Hmm, so who in my neighborhood fancies some trade?

[Akksum]

Hmm, so who in my neighborhood fancies some trade?

WELLLL, I'm going to sail towards you soon enough!

[Jute]

So can we have a neutral religion mechanism, like implemented in the actual Civilization game series? Maybe have an optional seventh score category?
Religion has often been the driving force behind good as well as bad intentions in humans, but it is in itself not worse than politics for example.

It is neutral; you can get a religion for nothing but Happiness.

Why would it cost happiness? In Civilization 5 you can even get some additional happiness with religion, depending on your chosen beliefs. It makes sense to sacrifice production and/or agricultural potential for it, or maybe something else, but happiness penalties should be optional. Research actually shows that religious people are happier.

[G-Tech Corporation]

It is neutral; you can get a religion for nothing but Happiness.

Why would it cost happiness? In Civilization 5 you can even get some additional happiness with religion, depending on your chosen beliefs. It makes sense to sacrifice production and/or agricultural potential for it, or maybe something else, but happiness penalties should be optional. Research actually shows that religious people are happier.

Not what I meant; read the table in the OP. Once your Happiness hits a certain point you can develop a religion without paying anything.

[Seno Zhou Varada]

Hmm, so who in my neighborhood fancies some trade?

If you can find us you trade with us.

[Jute]

Why would it cost happiness? In Civilization 5 you can even get some additional happiness with religion, depending on your chosen beliefs. It makes sense to sacrifice production and/or agricultural potential for it, or maybe something else, but happiness penalties should be optional. Research actually shows that religious people are happier.

Not what I meant; read the table in the OP. Once your Happiness hits a certain point you can develop a religion without paying anything.

Oh, thanks. So no science penalties anymore? I guess that's alright with me.

[Akksum]

Hmm, so who in my neighborhood fancies some trade?

If you can find us you trade with us.

whats your nations name?

[G-Tech Corporation]

Not what I meant; read the table in the OP. Once your Happiness hits a certain point you can develop a religion without paying anything.

Oh, thanks. So no science penalties anymore? I guess that's alright with me.

Nah, still Science penalties iirc. You can either develop Religion slowly via Happiness, or quickly via paying some vital stats for it, if I understand Hark's mechanics properly.

[Harkback Union]

I disagree entirely and also ask you to prove your claims, but it's too late for me to discuss. Religion laid the foundation for the sciences, and I never heard of it "hindering the advance of science for millennia". Again, please prove that.
Also, religion still doesn't have "burning heretics/scientists" alive inherently. In fact, not even Galileo was burned, and if I remember correctly, the burnings originated because of public pressure and the church eventually gave in. And that was only Christianity. There are other religions, too, which didn't have that. Think Buddhism (They have extremists now, too, but that's not limited to religion, it's universal to bigger groups of people)

I would also like you to prove your claims: How did religion lay the foundation for the sciences?
I already explained how Science layed the foundation to religion. You should tell me where I'm wrong here:
The Scientific Method:
People make observations and ask questions.
People make theories to explain observations and answer questions.
People test theories to see if they are right.

Religion is formed out of theories that Can't be (yet) tested. Religious people dismiss theories that go against the set of theories they accepted as true. Religious organizations see new theories that contradict their own as a threat to their power and will often seek to exterminate their source (see: Jesus, "Witches", Giordano Bruno). This hinders the advance of science greatly. The Scientific method is the basis of technological advance. Theories are needed for new inventions. Mathematics and Mechanical science for instance were lightyears ahead of Medicine, Chemistry and Psychology in medieval times. This wasn't because religion helped those sciences develop. It was because the people who worked on them didn't contradict Religious doctrines. In other areas, religion answered fundamental questions with unproven theories and segregated or killed those who dared to provide different answers for said questions.

Again, Extremism throughout history is very, very common. It is only in the enlightened societies of our times that we can (more or less) live together with people of different faith in peace.

[Seno Zhou Varada]

If you can find us you trade with us.

whats your nations name?

New Zyras

[Akksum]

WELL this is going to be a LONG trade route.

[G-Tech Corporation]

WELL this is going to be a LONG trade route.

This is very true.

We'll see if she ends up profitable or not.

[Akksum]

WELL this is going to be a LONG trade route.

This is very true.

We'll see if she ends up profitable or not.

well.. potatoes, cotton, and cattle.

[G-Tech Corporation]

This is very true.

We'll see if she ends up profitable or not.

well.. potatoes, cotton, and cattle.

True, but a trade in breeding stock is only profitable for so long.

[Harkback Union]

Throughout history, Religous people were almost always Fundamentalist. The slightest difference in people's belief system was enough reason to start wars and genocides (though Same applies for Ideologies and ethnic stuff). Just because religious societies invented a few things with very, very slow pace doesn't mean that they actually helped science advance. What science needs is freedom of thought, Stable societies (people not killing each other too much) and proper education system. Religious Feudalism failed to provide these conditions for centuries. If it wasn't for the few enlightened leaders who started humanities enlightenment by introducing religious tolerance and financing education and science, we would still be lighting candles at night.

Um, religious societies kind of invented everything until the 20th century. Because there was no society without religion. And freedom for science is exactly what some religious people achieved (Francis Bacon, for example) but in general, there's no clear-cut conflict between them. Galileo and Darwin were two times where they clashed, but in general they nourish each other. (“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” ― Albert Einstein )
Religious tolerance was already known to Islam in the Middle Age. I can provide you with sources, too. And most importantly, like I said: "The Catholic Church and the Islamic World kept the records of ancient philosophers, who else would've gotten lost in the attacks of Barbarians after the Fall of Rome, making the Renaissance possible in the first place. They were not the reason the Dark Ages came to be, they were one of the lights in the dark age." There would be no modern science, or at least none as advanced as today's were it not for Catholicism and the Islam.

You said it yourself:
"Um, religious societies kind of invented everything until the 20th 18th century. Because there was no society without religion."
Compare rate of technological advance in Religious times and Post-Religious times. I see sharp difference. With each step we take towards science, we get one step further from religious dogmas. It was always the least religious societies who made the most advance in technology (see United Kingdom). Imagine if we still believed that the world is flat. Where would humanity be then? Scientific progress in religious societies are achieved by those who dare to fight the religious theories and prove that they make no sense...

The Renaissance people didn't care much about ancient philosophers (in fact, Humanity still fails to profit from the achievements of philosophy, political and sociological sciences thanks to Ideological dogmas) and it was teeming with non-religiousness. The whole thing wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for the Wealthy Traders and Aristocrats who decided to stop wasting their money on salvation tickets and instead financed artists and scientist. It was then in the Baroque era that Religion Reclaimed europe, leading to much bloodshed and slowing down of scientific advance, but eventually Science won as people found way to prove that the church is wrong.

Religious tolerance in the Muslim world was poorly enforced. People of different faith still hated each other and you can imagine what happened to those who claimed that "woman are equal to man" or that "The earth rotates around the sun".

[Harkback Union]

I'm just gonna remove this option. Not worth the time arguing, and its also imba.
Makes happiness gathering rather pointless.

[G-Tech Corporation]

I'm just gonna remove this option. Not worth the time arguing.

Your call. I think it makes sense, like you build a monument or something and that turns your religion from a minor one to a major one.

[Harkback Union]

I'm just gonna remove this option. Not worth the time arguing.

Your call. I think it makes sense, like you build a monument or something and that turns your religion from a minor one to a major one.

I added the option to build smaller monument that allows you to relocate some score, but you'll need the extra 7 happiness for the major religion.

[Akksum]

So uhhh..

[The Almighty Bob]

Um, religious societies kind of invented everything until the 20th century. Because there was no society without religion. And freedom for science is exactly what some religious people achieved (Francis Bacon, for example) but in general, there's no clear-cut conflict between them. Galileo and Darwin were two times where they clashed, but in general they nourish each other. (“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” ― Albert Einstein )
Religious tolerance was already known to Islam in the Middle Age. I can provide you with sources, too. And most importantly, like I said: "The Catholic Church and the Islamic World kept the records of ancient philosophers, who else would've gotten lost in the attacks of Barbarians after the Fall of Rome, making the Renaissance possible in the first place. They were not the reason the Dark Ages came to be, they were one of the lights in the dark age." There would be no modern science, or at least none as advanced as today's were it not for Catholicism and the Islam.

You said it yourself:
"Um, religious societies kind of invented everything until the 20th 18th century. Because there was no society without religion."
Compare rate of technological advance in Religious times and Post-Religious times. I see sharp difference. With each step we take towards science, we get one step further from religious dogmas. It was always the least religious societies who made the most advance in technology (see United Kingdom). Imagine if we still believed that the world is flat. Where would humanity be then? Scientific progress in religious societies are achieved by those who dare to fight the religious theories and prove that they make no sense...

The Renaissance people didn't care much about ancient philosophers (in fact, Humanity still fails to profit from the achievements of philosophy, political and sociological sciences thanks to Ideological dogmas) and it was teeming with non-religiousness. The whole thing wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for the Wealthy Traders and Aristocrats who decided to stop wasting their money on salvation tickets and instead financed artists and scientist. It was then in the Baroque era that Religion Reclaimed europe, leading to much bloodshed and slowing down of scientific advance, but eventually Science won as people found way to prove that the church is wrong.

Religious tolerance in the Muslim world was poorly enforced. People of different faith still hated each other and you can imagine what happened to those who claimed that "woman are equal to man" or that "The earth rotates around the sun".

There are two topics which are entirely unfit for polite company. Politics and religion. This foolishness has gone on long enough! In the name of reason, return to the RP!!!!!!!!

[Harkback Union]

You said it yourself:
"Um, religious societies kind of invented everything until the 20th 18th century. Because there was no society without religion."
Compare rate of technological advance in Religious times and Post-Religious times. I see sharp difference. With each step we take towards science, we get one step further from religious dogmas. It was always the least religious societies who made the most advance in technology (see United Kingdom). Imagine if we still believed that the world is flat. Where would humanity be then? Scientific progress in religious societies are achieved by those who dare to fight the religious theories and prove that they make no sense...

The Renaissance people didn't care much about ancient philosophers (in fact, Humanity still fails to profit from the achievements of philosophy, political and sociological sciences thanks to Ideological dogmas) and it was teeming with non-religiousness. The whole thing wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for the Wealthy Traders and Aristocrats who decided to stop wasting their money on salvation tickets and instead financed artists and scientist. It was then in the Baroque era that Religion Reclaimed europe, leading to much bloodshed and slowing down of scientific advance, but eventually Science won as people found way to prove that the church is wrong.

Religious tolerance in the Muslim world was poorly enforced. People of different faith still hated each other and you can imagine what happened to those who claimed that "woman are equal to man" or that "The earth rotates around the sun".

There are two topics which are entirely unfit for polite company. Politics and religion. This foolishness has gone on long enough! In the name of reason, return to the RP!!!!!!!!

Not the first time we go way off topic... and I already deleted the option to sacrifice science for relegion so that should fix things.