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by Ruridova » Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:11 am

by The Vaktovian Empire » Sun Sep 07, 2014 8:24 am

by Ruridova » Sun Sep 07, 2014 8:47 am

by Ruridova » Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:07 pm

by Ruridova » Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:11 pm

by Unicario » Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:33 pm
Ruridova wrote:On the record and for everyone to see, China has no legitimate claim on Jiaozhou, and I have had it decided for a long time that Jiaozhou is staying German.


by Ruridova » Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:46 pm
Unicario wrote:Ruridova wrote:On the record and for everyone to see, China has no legitimate claim on Jiaozhou, and I have had it decided for a long time that Jiaozhou is staying German.
I'd say they *have* a legitimate claim, you know, Qingdao being a lease Germany bought from China, but whether or not they have the geopolitical capacity to enforce their will is a different matter.

by Unicario » Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:26 pm
Ruridova wrote:Unicario wrote:
I'd say they *have* a legitimate claim, you know, Qingdao being a lease Germany bought from China, but whether or not they have the geopolitical capacity to enforce their will is a different matter.
The logic behind the Chinese claim(it was ours once) is the same as the logic behind the German claim of Czechia(it was ours once). And just as the Czechoslovaks didn't want to be part of Germany, the Jiaozhouans don't want to be part of China, meaning that popular sovereignty is basically destroying any claims China tries to make.

by Ruridova » Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:36 pm
Unicario wrote:Ruridova wrote:The logic behind the Chinese claim(it was ours once) is the same as the logic behind the German claim of Czechia(it was ours once). And just as the Czechoslovaks didn't want to be part of Germany, the Jiaozhouans don't want to be part of China, meaning that popular sovereignty is basically destroying any claims China tries to make.
Though the Chinese claim is made by merit that Germany leased territory and never returned it. The reason why Japan is silent on the Jiaozhou matter is because it has no desire to hash up Japanese Hong Kong's whole status, which has been effectually made a permanent lease (China has yet to bring it up before the AU)

by The Vaktovian Empire » Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:42 pm
Ruridova wrote:Map update
Changes from previous update
Map-itself-related
- duplicate Mouth-of-the-Don-River removed from Sea of Azov
RP-related
- Avignon returned to French control, per Agrioli-Lachapelle Agreement
- Niger-Volta border fixed to run along Niger River, as has been the case ICly and OoCly since part 2


by Unicario » Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:03 pm
Ruridova wrote:Unicario wrote:
Though the Chinese claim is made by merit that Germany leased territory and never returned it. The reason why Japan is silent on the Jiaozhou matter is because it has no desire to hash up Japanese Hong Kong's whole status, which has been effectually made a permanent lease (China has yet to bring it up before the AU)
Germany leased the land from 1835 to 1892. In 1892, it purchased the land from China and thus ended the lease.

by Unicario » Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:03 pm
The Vaktovian Empire wrote:Ruridova wrote:Map update
Changes from previous update
Map-itself-related
- duplicate Mouth-of-the-Don-River removed from Sea of Azov
RP-related
- Avignon returned to French control, per Agrioli-Lachapelle Agreement
- Niger-Volta border fixed to run along Niger River, as has been the case ICly and OoCly since part 2
I don't know if bonk meant a path to Avignon or not. If not, lachapelles gonna come asking for more.

by Ruridova » Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:38 pm

by The Vaktovian Empire » Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:47 pm
The Vaktovian Empire wrote:So, AFTER the civil war Brazil is about to haven finishes, Rurik I think it would be appropriate to haven tawantisuyu, URCA, Brazil, the three puppets, and the CSA have a World Baseball Classic along with Japan with our national teams. That is if you guys have them. Brazil got baseball ATL abouts 10 years ago.

by Ruridova » Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:53 pm
The Vaktovian Empire wrote:The Vaktovian Empire wrote:So, AFTER the civil war Brazil is about to haven finishes, Rurik I think it would be appropriate to haven tawantisuyu, URCA, Brazil, the three puppets, and the CSA have a World Baseball Classic along with Japan with our national teams. That is if you guys have them. Brazil got baseball ATL abouts 10 years ago.

by The Vaktovian Empire » Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:57 pm

by Unicario » Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:58 pm
Ruridova wrote:Unicario wrote:
Well in that case, it's German by legal merit.
And by popular sovereignty.
-China convinced Germany to hold a referendum in 2003. 97% of Jiaozhouans voted to stay with Germany. Only 3% supported joining China. The referendum was internationally monitored, and no fraud was present.
-The elected government of Jiaozhou has repeatedly expressed opposition to China and support for Germany. A symbolic reaffirmation of Jiaozhouan support for Germany was passed by the People's Assembly 209-1 and signed by the Governor yesterday.
-On the occasions where China begins making moves towards Jiaozhou, Jiaozhouan citizens are notorious for starting anti-Chinese protests. At present, over 3 million of Jiaozhou's 12.5 million are protesting against China ATL.

by Ruridova » Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:15 pm
Unicario wrote:Ruridova wrote:And by popular sovereignty.
-China convinced Germany to hold a referendum in 2003. 97% of Jiaozhouans voted to stay with Germany. Only 3% supported joining China. The referendum was internationally monitored, and no fraud was present.
-The elected government of Jiaozhou has repeatedly expressed opposition to China and support for Germany. A symbolic reaffirmation of Jiaozhouan support for Germany was passed by the People's Assembly 209-1 and signed by the Governor yesterday.
-On the occasions where China begins making moves towards Jiaozhou, Jiaozhouan citizens are notorious for starting anti-Chinese protests. At present, over 3 million of Jiaozhou's 12.5 million are protesting against China ATL.
In that case, Japan would probably affirm Germany's right to the land and just simply request that Jiaozhou and German Oceania become a member of the Asian Union as a "self-governing entity of a foreign power", as so to affirm that Jiaozhou gets to have a say in Asian affairs (economic especially)
What currency would the Jiaozhou territory use? German Mark or the Asian yen?

by Unicario » Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:38 pm
Ruridova wrote:Unicario wrote:
In that case, Japan would probably affirm Germany's right to the land and just simply request that Jiaozhou and German Oceania become a member of the Asian Union as a "self-governing entity of a foreign power", as so to affirm that Jiaozhou gets to have a say in Asian affairs (economic especially)
What currency would the Jiaozhou territory use? German Mark or the Asian yen?
Jiaozhou gets the Jiaozhouan mark with the German mark and Asian yen as legal currency, akin to the Hong Kong dollar or the Macanese pataca.
As for the Asian Union, Germany accepted EAU membership earlier today, meaning that Jiaozhou and German Oceanian would be EAU as well... the AU admitting them as 'German East Asia', as you propose through TG, might work, but would be slightly confusing because the Self-Governing Overseas Territory of Jiaozhou and the Overseas Territory of German Oceania aren't led by one authority outside of the government in Berlin.

by Luziyca » Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:42 pm

by Luziyca » Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:45 pm
Unicario wrote:Ruridova wrote:And by popular sovereignty.
-China convinced Germany to hold a referendum in 2003. 97% of Jiaozhouans voted to stay with Germany. Only 3% supported joining China. The referendum was internationally monitored, and no fraud was present.
-The elected government of Jiaozhou has repeatedly expressed opposition to China and support for Germany. A symbolic reaffirmation of Jiaozhouan support for Germany was passed by the People's Assembly 209-1 and signed by the Governor yesterday.
-On the occasions where China begins making moves towards Jiaozhou, Jiaozhouan citizens are notorious for starting anti-Chinese protests. At present, over 3 million of Jiaozhou's 12.5 million are protesting against China ATL.
In that case, Japan would probably affirm Germany's right to the land and just simply request that Jiaozhou and German Oceania become a member of the Asian Union as a "self-governing entity of a foreign power", as so to affirm that Jiaozhou gets to have a say in Asian affairs (economic especially)
What currency would the Jiaozhou territory use? German Mark or the Asian yen?

by Unicario » Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:48 pm
Luziyca wrote:Unicario wrote:
In that case, Japan would probably affirm Germany's right to the land and just simply request that Jiaozhou and German Oceania become a member of the Asian Union as a "self-governing entity of a foreign power", as so to affirm that Jiaozhou gets to have a say in Asian affairs (economic especially)
What currency would the Jiaozhou territory use? German Mark or the Asian yen?
I think China would insist Jiaozhou is a member of the Asian Union since formation because it is a part of China. Thus, China would likely try to veto Jiaozhou's entry under the grounds that it is already part of the Asian Union.

by Luziyca » Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:57 pm
Unicario wrote:Luziyca wrote:I think China would insist Jiaozhou is a member of the Asian Union since formation because it is a part of China. Thus, China would likely try to veto Jiaozhou's entry under the grounds that it is already part of the Asian Union.
Japan would argue the contrary on these grounds:
1. Popular referendum has rejected union with China overwhelmingly
2. China has legally sold off their rights to the land in an 1892 treaty of sale with the German Empire -- Japan would state that since it was not done under duress, it holds legal ground unless otherwise declared illegal by a German and Chinese court.
3. Jiaozhou is under Chinese duress and pressure, violating the AU's whole "human rights" business.

by Ruridova » Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:29 pm
Luziyca wrote:Unicario wrote:
Japan would argue the contrary on these grounds:
1. Popular referendum has rejected union with China overwhelmingly
2. China has legally sold off their rights to the land in an 1892 treaty of sale with the German Empire -- Japan would state that since it was not done under duress, it holds legal ground unless otherwise declared illegal by a German and Chinese court.
3. Jiaozhou is under Chinese duress and pressure, violating the AU's whole "human rights" business.
China will reply...
1. The culture has been historically Chinese, they speak a dialect of Chinese, and the land was part of various Chinese dynasties
2. The sale was declared illegal in a Supreme Court ruling in 1975 since it was done "in a time where colonialism was acceptable."
3. Jiaozhou is under German durress and pressure, with the 2003 referendum having some evidence of voter fraud (according to rightist Chinese sources) by German soldiers forcing Jiaozhouans to vote yes or risk being humiliated
And most importantly...
4. It is already a member of the Asian Union, since it is a part of an AU member nation (China)
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