Game of Thrones: Aftermath (OOC)

[Socialist Czechia]

Without dragons, it doesn't matter who is on the throne. Seven Kingdom is invention of Targaryens, and as such, why bother anymore with iron throne? Let all 7 kingdoms be independent again.

Well, it was kept during the Baratheon rule. Also, some regions have never been independent, such as the Riverlands, and some are only vassals to the Iron Throne, like the Crownlands.

So partition. 4 kingdoms would be still more stable than 7. but one united kingdom, without dragons or any other insurance policy, thats impossible to maintain for long term.

[Rephesus]

Last time a Baratheon was on the throne things didn't go so well.

Without dragons, it doesn't matter who is on the throne. Seven Kingdom is invention of Targaryens, and as such, why bother anymore with iron throne? Let all 7 kingdoms be independent again.

Because they would never live peacefully...

[Imperium Nova]

Well, it was kept during the Baratheon rule. Also, some regions have never been independent, such as the Riverlands, and some are only vassals to the Iron Throne, like the Crownlands.

So partition. 4 kingdoms would be still more stable than 7. but one united kingdom, without dragons or any other insurance policy, thats impossible to maintain for long term.

4 kingdoms? That would make some kings vassals to others. Stability is achieved by large states, not small.

[Rephesus]

I'd think if partitioned it would be a united North/Eyrie under the Starks with a bit of the river lands, the Lannisters would get most of the Reach and part of the Riverlands, part of the reach would go to Dorne and the Stormlands, and the crown lands would mostly go to the Stormlands, with Kings Landing being international territory governed by a moot from each kingdom.

[Zentrut]

Only if Stark supports Baratheon kingship. Also, I got a surprise brewing somewhere, and it's somewhere the Blackfyres won't like.

Last time a Baratheon was on the throne things didn't go so well.

The realm was at peace, except the Greyjoy rebellion, but we don't have to worry about those this time.

[Rephesus]

Last time a Baratheon was on the throne things didn't go so well.

The realm was at peace, except the Greyjoy rebellion, but we don't have to worry about those this time.

The peace was frail, the coffers were bleeding, the wall was practically unmanned, the Lannisters controlled the throne with their money and influence. And this was after things were stable. Right now the politics are a mess and a Baratheon king would ruin everything. No, we need a true ruler on the iron throne.

[Imperium Nova]

The realm was at peace, except the Greyjoy rebellion, but we don't have to worry about those this time.

The peace was frail, the coffers were bleeding, the wall was practically unmanned, the Lannisters controlled the throne with their money and influence. And this was after things were stable. Right now the politics are a mess and a Baratheon king would ruin everything. No, we need a true ruler on the iron throne.

A true ruler, of the blood of Old Valyria and descendant from Aegon the Conqueror.

[Zentrut]

The realm was at peace, except the Greyjoy rebellion, but we don't have to worry about those this time.

The peace was frail, the coffers were bleeding, the wall was practically unmanned, the Lannisters controlled the throne with their money and influence. And this was after things were stable. Right now the politics are a mess and a Baratheon king would ruin everything. No, we need a true ruler on the iron throne.

Now we have the Tully"s for that, Jeyne is too thrifty and Orys too sensible to make the coffers bleed. With a Baratheon King who actually loves his wife and listens to people, this realm could stay strong. Growing Strong that is (Tyrell connection? You'll never know muahaha.)

The peace was frail, the coffers were bleeding, the wall was practically unmanned, the Lannisters controlled the throne with their money and influence. And this was after things were stable. Right now the politics are a mess and a Baratheon king would ruin everything. No, we need a true ruler on the iron throne.

A true ruler, of the blood of Old Valyria and descendant from Aegon the Conqueror.

Like a Baratheon?

[Rephesus]

Actually if we go by bloodline, Myrcella would be next in line as the last living child of Robert Baratheon. She's 71 though so her reign won't be long, but it would be peaceful and stable.

[Imperium Nova]

A true ruler, of the blood of Old Valyria and descendant from Aegon the Conqueror.

Like a Baratheon?

Well, the Baratheons had the blood of Old Valyria and were descendants from Aegon's brother, and also from later marriages. However they are more Stormlanders than High Valyrians by now. But, if they too are descendants of the Dragon then perhaps it is time to stand by one another in the great conflict to come?

[Imperium Nova]

Actually if we go by bloodline, Myrcella would be next in line as the last living child of Robert Baratheon. She's 71 though so her reign won't be long, but it would be peaceful and stable.

Well, I don't know if she is still regarded as Robert's child, the incest between Jaime and Cersei should be common knowledge but if it is officialy recognised I am not sure. I'd still say that the Baratheons and Blackfyres have strongest claim to the Throne.

[Mormak]

Last time a Baratheon was on the throne things didn't go so well.

Without dragons, it doesn't matter who is on the throne. Seven Kingdom is invention of Targaryens, and as such, why bother anymore with iron throne? Let all 7 kingdoms be independent again.

It's as much a invention of the Targaryens as the system of Monarchy and Feudalism the Andals.

It would have occurred if Aegon had never landed i have no doubt, its just it would have been a different fair haired blond family on the throne for centuries.

[Socialist Czechia]

So partition. 4 kingdoms would be still more stable than 7. but one united kingdom, without dragons or any other insurance policy, thats impossible to maintain for long term.

4 kingdoms? That would make some kings vassals to others. Stability is achieved by large states, not small.

Then why largely decentralized Holy Roman Empire or dozens of small Italian states had no problem to live and prosper for centuries?

[Mormak]

4 kingdoms? That would make some kings vassals to others. Stability is achieved by large states, not small.

Then why largely decentralized Holy Roman Empire or dozens of small Italian states had no problem to live and prosper for centuries?

Because those Italian states RARELY had a massive threat rolling their way, their main issue was invasion by Spain, and their own mercenaries betraying them for the entire time of the republics and city states.

And the Holy Roman Empire's issue was its fragmentation due to the losses of resources, you cannot maintain that bulk without the wealth. Just ask Tyros of Myr.

But seriously why are we even discussing this here?

[Socialist Czechia]

btw. Holy Roman Empire-like Westeros would be perhaps more stable.

"The H.R.E. was not a centralized state like most countries today. Instead, it was divided into dozens—eventually hundreds—of individual entities governed by kings,[36] dukes, counts, bishops, abbots and other rulers, collectively known as princes. There were also some areas ruled directly by the Emperor. At no time could the Emperor simply issue decrees and govern autonomously over the Empire. His power was severely restricted by the various local leaders."

[Mormak]

That doesn't sound like anything i would approve of in Westeros, a minor power like the Iron Islands would no doubt love it though.

I mean every time some one makes a serious effort, you guys get conquered.

[Socialist Czechia]

Because those Italian states RARELY had a massive threat rolling their way, their main issue was invasion by Spain, and their own mercenaries betraying them for the entire time of the republics and city states.

And the Holy Roman Empire's issue was its fragmentation due to the losses of resources, you cannot maintain that bulk without the wealth. Just ask Tyros of Myr.

But seriously why are we even discussing this here?

Because 7-kingdom-united-as-one-power doesn't make sense anymore. It was created by total dominance of Targaryen dragons and brutality of their masters. Keep absolutist empire isn't easy itself. And seven kingdoms has no unity behind one same religion or one widely respected royal house.
Not anymore.

To solve this, reorganized, decentralized realm with powerless figurehead on iron throne makes more sense. It will be more chaotic, but no return to pre-Aegon state as well.

[Mormak]

It called keep them line with a simple motto.

Bread and Circus, Or in this Case.

Gold and Swords.

Wealth, Prosperity and Security will be the new beacon for a united Seven, Or if you disagree with that assessment, rebel?

Your house dies. You die, Children, Relatives, Men at Arms, Vassals, The Lands and titles go to another house with more vision. Aegon had to obliterate two of the Kingdoms to form the Seven, I will not be surprised if that need be repeated to maintain them.

Makes as much sense to keep the Kingdoms together as it does to seperate them, Again this desperately sounds like you want an out not to be smushed by a united Kingdoms.

[Socialist Czechia]

Makes as much sense to keep the Kingdoms together as it does to seperate them, Again this desperately sounds like you want an out not to be smushed by a united Kingdoms.

totally no worries there, man.

[Mormak]

Makes as much sense to keep the Kingdoms together as it does to seperate them, Again this desperately sounds like you want an out not to be smushed by a united Kingdoms.

totally no worries there, man.

Indeed? Would you amiable to correspondence from Casterly?

[Arlye Austros]

How long till the death of Daenerys would it take for the ravens to get up to the Stark Bannermen?

[Mormak]

How long till the death of Daenerys would it take for the ravens to get up to the Stark Bannermen?

Its the north bro, You need to send riders AND ravens.

Crap just seems to go wrong up there in GOT. That said the Ravens likely could arrive within the same week or so. Riders within the same month to get there, deliver the message and return. Depends really on where you are going and if it follows the Kings road or no, Some of those Stark Bannermen are OUT there, well off road and you have to hike through the mountains and edge towards the frostfangs it seems like to just reach them.

._.

[Arlye Austros]

How long till the death of Daenerys would it take for the ravens to get up to the Stark Bannermen?

Its the north bro, You need to send riders AND ravens.

Crap just seems to go wrong up there in GOT. That said the Ravens likely could arrive within the same week or so. Riders within the same month to get there, deliver the message and return. Depends really on where you are going and if it follows the Kings road or no, Some of those Stark Bannermen are OUT there, well off road and you have to hike through the mountains and edge towards the frostfangs it seems like to just reach them.

._.

Have tried to fix the raven issue over Greaywater watch by arguing that since the Second Night the bogs and swamps seem to be colder, tend to freeze more and thus the keep moves less, so from time to time, a Raven does arrive to GWW. However, Gonna be a while till I get such messages, unless a rider takes it from Moat Cailin.

[Mormak]

Its the north bro, You need to send riders AND ravens.

Crap just seems to go wrong up there in GOT. That said the Ravens likely could arrive within the same week or so. Riders within the same month to get there, deliver the message and return. Depends really on where you are going and if it follows the Kings road or no, Some of those Stark Bannermen are OUT there, well off road and you have to hike through the mountains and edge towards the frostfangs it seems like to just reach them.

._.

Have tried to fix the raven issue over Greaywater watch by arguing that since the Second Night the bogs and swamps seem to be colder, tend to freeze more and thus the keep moves less, so from time to time, a Raven does arrive to GWW. However, Gonna be a while till I get such messages, unless a rider takes it from Moat Cailin.

That's the real reason Ser Willem didn't summon all the Lannister bannermen if i am being honest.

And he said as much, It would take far too long to assemble,outfit and be capable of arming and feeding the entire might of the Westerlands, it would be half a year before they could get that great host together but if they managed it? it would be almost if not over a hundred thousand strong. Also while the Westerlands aren't near as bad as the North, some of it is very remote and quite a few houses live in the wastelands.

But fifteen will serve for now.

[Imperium Nova]

Its the north bro, You need to send riders AND ravens.

Crap just seems to go wrong up there in GOT. That said the Ravens likely could arrive within the same week or so. Riders within the same month to get there, deliver the message and return. Depends really on where you are going and if it follows the Kings road or no, Some of those Stark Bannermen are OUT there, well off road and you have to hike through the mountains and edge towards the frostfangs it seems like to just reach them.

._.

Have tried to fix the raven issue over Greaywater watch by arguing that since the Second Night the bogs and swamps seem to be colder, tend to freeze more and thus the keep moves less, so from time to time, a Raven does arrive to GWW. However, Gonna be a while till I get such messages, unless a rider takes it from Moat Cailin.

Well the distance to Dorne/Stepstones and back should be the same distance as to the North, roughly. So I'd say you be getting them quite soon.