Excalibur Squadron OOC 2: The Song Remains the Same

[Monfrox]

7.62 > 5.56

Len, get out. Don't you have a POST to make?

[Kouralia]

7.62 > 5.56

Len, get out. Don't you have a POST to make?

7>7.62

There's a reason everyone's going 'ooh, what about 6.2 or 6.8?' atm.

[Monfrox]

7.62 > 5.56

Len, get out. Don't you have a POST to make?

7>7.62

There's a reason everyone's going 'ooh, what about 6.2 or 6.8?' atm.

Even when I agree with you, you disagree with me.

Y u do dis?

[Kouralia]

7>7.62

There's a reason everyone's going 'ooh, what about 6.2 or 6.8?' atm.

Even when I agree with you, you disagree with me.

Y u do dis?

I was agreeing w/ you. Wooden furniture and '60s weapons are best. I just got confused, and thought you were believing the EM-2 to be 5.56.

Which is odd. I'm sleep deprived and trying to do things, which is probably why I am srsly being confused. I would say 'g'night all', but it's only 1900hrs, so I'll probably end up staying up horrendously late anyway.

[Goram]

Even when I agree with you, you disagree with me.

Y u do dis?

I was agreeing w/ you. Wooden furniture and '60s weapons are best. I just got confused, and thought you were believing the EM-2 to be 5.56.

Which is odd. I'm sleep deprived and trying to do things, which is probably why I am srsly being confused. I would say 'g'night all', but it's only 1900hrs, so I'll probably end up staying up horrendously late anyway.

Who needs small arms when you've got these?

Precision Guided Munitions, bitches!

[Kouralia]

I was agreeing w/ you. Wooden furniture and '60s weapons are best. I just got confused, and thought you were believing the EM-2 to be 5.56.

Which is odd. I'm sleep deprived and trying to do things, which is probably why I am srsly being confused. I would say 'g'night all', but it's only 1900hrs, so I'll probably end up staying up horrendously late anyway.

Who needs small arms when you've got these?

Precision Guided Munitions, bitches!

You cant win a war w/out air POWAH.
You can't fight a war w/out infantry.

[The Two Jerseys]

Even when I agree with you, you disagree with me.

Y u do dis?

I was agreeing w/ you. Wooden furniture and '60s weapons are best. I just got confused, and thought you were believing the EM-2 to be 5.56.

Which is odd. I'm sleep deprived and trying to do things, which is probably why I am srsly being confused. I would say 'g'night all', but it's only 1900hrs, so I'll probably end up staying up horrendously late anyway.

I never understood the appeal of the 5.56. Regardless of how it tumbles on impact, the 7.62 will still make a a fucking big hole on impact and will do it at longer range to boot. I also don't buy the whole "small round = more ammo" argument, since you have to use up that additional ammo just to drop one guy.

Plus when it all hits the fan, with an M14 you can still at least bash the other guy's head in...

[Kouralia]

I was agreeing w/ you. Wooden furniture and '60s weapons are best. I just got confused, and thought you were believing the EM-2 to be 5.56.

Which is odd. I'm sleep deprived and trying to do things, which is probably why I am srsly being confused. I would say 'g'night all', but it's only 1900hrs, so I'll probably end up staying up horrendously late anyway.

I never understood the appeal of the 5.56. Regardless of how it tumbles on impact, the 7.62 will still make a a fucking big hole on impact and will do it at longer range to boot. I also don't buy the whole "small round = more ammo" argument, since you have to use up that additional ammo just to drop one guy.

Plus when it all hits the fan, with an M14 you can still at least bash the other guy's head in...

1) More ammo carried.
2) Less recoil
3) More accurate in automatic mode of firing
4) If you're not bayonetting the other fella, you're doing it wrong.

[Len Hyet]

I never understood the appeal of the 5.56. Regardless of how it tumbles on impact, the 7.62 will still make a a fucking big hole on impact and will do it at longer range to boot. I also don't buy the whole "small round = more ammo" argument, since you have to use up that additional ammo just to drop one guy.

Plus when it all hits the fan, with an M14 you can still at least bash the other guy's head in...

1) More ammo carried.
2) Less recoil
3) More accurate in automatic mode of firing
4) If you're not bayonetting the other fella, you're doing it wrong.

1) Eh, only by a few rounds.

2) Bullcrap. If you can design a fully automatic twelve gauge shotgun with a two inch recoil you can do the same with a 7.62

3) Bigger bullets stay straighter in the air.

4) Conceded

[Kouralia]

1) More ammo carried.
2) Less recoil
3) More accurate in automatic mode of firing
4) If you're not bayonetting the other fella, you're doing it wrong.

1) Eh, only by a few rounds.

2) Bullcrap. If you can design a fully automatic twelve gauge shotgun with a two inch recoil you can do the same with a 7.62

3) Bigger bullets stay straighter in the air.

4) Conceded

1) The ability to carry something like 150% more ammunition is 'only a few rounds'? If I've got a pouch holding three G3 Mags, and 3 HK33 mags (and we're making the assumption that they have the same width) then I'm carrying 60 rounds of 7.62 and 90 rounds of 5.56. At the British Army's 'Rapid' rate of fire (one round per two seconds), I can lay down suppressive fire for 120 seconds and 180 seconds respectively, and at the 'Deliberate' rate of fire (one round per six seconds), for 360 seconds and 540 seconds respectively. That's an increase from two minutes to three minutes, and 6 minutes to 9 minutes. Making the assumption that I, as a British Army soldier, am carrying... say, one double three-mag pouch in my webbing, that's an increase in time firing (at deliberate) from 720 seconds to 1,080 seconds, or 12 minutes to 18 minutes, an increase of... six minutes. I take your 'few rounds' and increase capacity by 50%, without even touching on the weight differences. RE: those, I've just seen a figure bandied about by someone more knowledgeable than I of '660 rounds of 5.56 in 33 Vietnam-era M16 twenty-rounders versus 280 rounds of 7.62 in 14 Vietnam-era M14 twenty-rounders, assuming a 10kg weight limit', this offers an increase of roughly 230% I believe.

2) Here we see an untrained individual firing a G3 . By this dude's stance I make the assumption that he's trained (e.g. a soldier). Note the movement of the rifle in video A, and the moment at the end of firing where the shooter in video B jerks forward. This is because he is leaning into the recoil. Note the movement of the rifle and shooter in video C. Yes, it is possible to design a weapon that can reduce felt recoil hugely, however a) the argument that 7.62 has less recoil than 5.56 is bullshit, b) you can make the same mechanism for the AR18, say, and that will have even less recoil, and c) you're needlessly overcomplicating things. Which shotgun is this that has this recoil reduction? Was it a) developed in the timeframe required, and b) is it reliable and simple enough to function as the main rifle of the army?

3) This follows on from the previous one - firing a G3 on full-auto has more recoil, and is thus less accurate than firing an HK33 on full-auto.

[Kouralia]

Oh, Page, y u so naive? When appealing to regulation authority to Smythe, please do check that you're actually in command, and aren't in fact arguing against someone who is a) the same rank as you, and b) your immediate commanding officer (no matter how temporary that command might be).

[Len Hyet]

1) Eh, only by a few rounds.

2) Bullcrap. If you can design a fully automatic twelve gauge shotgun with a two inch recoil you can do the same with a 7.62

3) Bigger bullets stay straighter in the air.

4) Conceded

1) The ability to carry something like 150% more ammunition is 'only a few rounds'? If I've got a pouch holding three G3 Mags, and 3 HK33 mags (and we're making the assumption that they have the same width) then I'm carrying 60 rounds of 7.62 and 90 rounds of 5.56. At the British Army's 'Rapid' rate of fire (one round per two seconds), I can lay down suppressive fire for 120 seconds and 180 seconds respectively, and at the 'Deliberate' rate of fire (one round per six seconds), for 360 seconds and 540 seconds respectively. That's an increase from two minutes to three minutes, and 6 minutes to 9 minutes. Making the assumption that I, as a British Army soldier, am carrying... say, one double three-mag pouch in my webbing, that's an increase in time firing (at deliberate) from 720 seconds to 1,080 seconds, or 12 minutes to 18 minutes, an increase of... six minutes. I take your 'few rounds' and increase capacity by 50%, without even touching on the weight differences. RE: those, I've just seen a figure bandied about by someone more knowledgeable than I of '660 rounds of 5.56 in 33 Vietnam-era M16 twenty-rounders versus 280 rounds of 7.62 in 14 Vietnam-era M14 twenty-rounders, assuming a 10kg weight limit', this offers an increase of roughly 230% I believe.

2) Here we see an untrained individual firing a G3 . By this dude's stance I make the assumption that he's trained (e.g. a soldier). Note the movement of the rifle in video A, and the moment at the end of firing where the shooter in video B jerks forward. This is because he is leaning into the recoil. Note the movement of the rifle and shooter in video C. Yes, it is possible to design a weapon that can reduce felt recoil hugely, however a) the argument that 7.62 has less recoil than 5.56 is bullshit, b) you can make the same mechanism for the AR18, say, and that will have even less recoil, and c) you're needlessly overcomplicating things. Which shotgun is this that has this recoil reduction? Was it a) developed in the timeframe required, and b) is it reliable and simple enough to function as the main rifle of the army?

3) This follows on from the previous one - firing a G3 on full-auto has more recoil, and is thus less accurate than firing an HK33 on full-auto.

Alright! I bow to your knowledge

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Oh, Page, y u so naive? When appealing to regulation authority to Smythe, please do check that you're actually in command, and aren't in fact arguing against someone who is a) the same rank as you,

...Except Page does outrank Alix. She never actually got promoted to his rank except in a sort of very irregular "acting" capacity. She's still a Flight Lieutenant officially, and still wears that insignia.

and b) your immediate commanding officer (no matter how temporary that command might be).

I think that's pretty specious when it comes to this particular case due to the reason given above.

[United Kingdom of Poland]

aywhats our altitude.

[Kouralia]

Oh, Page, y u so naive? When appealing to regulation authority to Smythe, please do check that you're actually in command, and aren't in fact arguing against someone who is a) the same rank as you,

...Except Page does outrank Alix. She never actually got promoted to his rank except in a sort of very irregular "acting" capacity. She's still a Flight Lieutenant officially, and still wears that insignia.

and b) your immediate commanding officer (no matter how temporary that command might be).

I think that's pretty specious when it comes to this particular case due to the reason given above.

Flight Lieutenant = Captain as a rank. Unless Page is a Group Captain, or Captain of the Royal Navy, they're both OF-2.

EDIT: even if he's a squadron leader, and literally only uses Captain as an unofficial personal 'I want to' sort of thing, then he's still demonstrated inability to command and think logically.

[The balkens]

OH! KOUR DONE GONE TECHNICAL UP IN HERE!
so jelly

[Kouralia]

OH! KOUR DONE GONE TECHNICAL UP IN HERE!
so jelly

*thwaps*

I'm slightly unsure as to whether or not I'm correct, so I've put in a query at the Military Realism thread to see if I need to correct myself.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

...Except Page does outrank Alix. She never actually got promoted to his rank except in a sort of very irregular "acting" capacity. She's still a Flight Lieutenant officially, and still wears that insignia.

I think that's pretty specious when it comes to this particular case due to the reason given above.

Flight Lieutenant = Captain as a rank. Unless Page is a Group Captain, or Captain of the Royal Navy, they're both OF-2.

Except Flight Lieutenant =/= Squadron Leader, which Page actually still is.

EDIT: even if he's a squadron leader, and literally only uses Captain as an unofficial personal 'I want to' sort of thing, then he's still demonstrated inability to command and think logically.

Man, I know it's a huge stretch for a guy whose been tortured in a prison camp for six weeks nonstop to not be at the apex of logical thought, but what are you basing that on?
Also, what the hell were you talking about in your IC post? Page didn't throw anybody off the plane. The pilot's just kind of...laying there behind the seat. I think Alix or Smythe may inadvertently be standing on him.
Frankly, this is coming off not so much as an effort to be a good NCO as it is an attempt at subversion of command in a crucial situation...

OH! KOUR DONE GONE TECHNICAL UP IN HERE!
so jelly

You quiet down. The men are talking.

[The balkens]

Don't male put you in the time out corner, tigger.

Don't think I won't, I'll do it. I'll do it.

(currently in texas for a sell. Really profitable stuff.)

[Kouralia]

Flight Lieutenant = Captain as a rank. Unless Page is a Group Captain, or Captain of the Royal Navy, they're both OF-2.

Except Flight Lieutenant =/= Squadron Leader, which Page actually still is.

Is he Squadron leader, or is he Captain?

EDIT: even if he's a squadron leader, and literally only uses Captain as an unofficial personal 'I want to' sort of thing, then he's still demonstrated inability to command and think logically.

Man, I know it's a huge stretch for a guy whose been tortured in a prison camp for six weeks nonstop to not be at the apex of logical thought, but what are you basing that on?
Also, what the hell were you talking about in your IC post? Page didn't throw anybody off the plane. The pilot's just kind of...laying there behind the seat. I think Alix or Smythe may inadvertently be standing on him.

Oh, I thought he was pushed out (of the plane), not psuhed out (of the seat). I'll correct that.

1) strangling a prisoner, who is currently flying the plane you're all in, and is the most trained person RE: said thing, is pretty... illogical.
2) Even if she (Noble) doesn't have the rank of Squadron leader, who is the OC? Because the RAF wouldn't leave it with Robert Page as OC for 'however long', what with him being a PoW. SImilar to how (IIRC, this is just from memory) the President gets taken out of the US's chain of command if he's taken prisoner, and even if he said 'launch the nukes now, I command you' while prisoner, he'd get ignored. And if he tried to overrule the orders of his CP detail in the middle of a fire-fight (which the current situation is comparable to) he'd probably still get ignored.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Except Flight Lieutenant =/= Squadron Leader, which Page actually still is.

Is he Squadron leader, or is he Captain?

...Now that's a question with a long and slightly embarrassing answer.
Back in the day when I first started this thread, I was such a moron that I didn't even check the RAF's ranking system. I suimply assumed it worked on the USAAF paradigm of having their ranks be basiclly identical to army ranks - Lieutenant, Captain, Major, and so on. An obvious mistake, but one I realized way, way too late. By the time I discovered Captain wasn't a legit RAF rank, it was pretty far into this thing.
So...the hastily improvised answer that I came up with around the time of Mordred is that due to the dual ground/air components of Excalibur, Page has dual rank in the Army and RAF. If that's cheap, well chalk it up to my shitty writing and fact-checking at the first stages of Excalibur. I can accept that.

EDIT: even if he's a squadron leader, and literally only uses Captain as an unofficial personal 'I want to' sort of thing, then he's still demonstrated inability to command and think logically.

Man, I know it's a huge stretch for a guy whose been tortured in a prison camp for six weeks nonstop to not be at the apex of logical thought, but what are you basing that on?
Also, what the hell were you talking about in your IC post? Page didn't throw anybody off the plane. The pilot's just kind of...laying there behind the seat. I think Alix or Smythe may inadvertently be standing on him.

Oh, I thought he was pushed out (of the plane), not psuhed out (of the seat). I'll correct that.

Righteous.

1) strangling a prisoner, who is currently flying the plane you're all in, and is the most trained person RE: said thing, is pretty... illogical.

Ah, but wasn't he also the same person who, after being taken prisoner, broke our trust and tried to act against us in a way that would (probably) get us all killed by tipping the Germans off that the transport had been hijacked?
I think in that case, some punitive action would be justified.

2) Even if she (Noble) doesn't have the rank of Squadron leader, who is the OC? Because the RAF wouldn't leave it with Robert Page as OC for 'however long', what with him being a PoW.

The exact situation of who the OC is is genuinely confused. I would say it's Page, but there's arguments for both sides.

[Kouralia]

EDIT: If you just want Page's orders followed with no more fuss, say and I'll edit, but Smythe'll bring it up back at Tempsford along with murdering a PoW.

---

Is he Squadron leader, or is he Captain?

...Now that's a question with a long and slightly embarrassing answer.
Back in the day when I first started this thread, I was such a moron that I didn't even check the RAF's ranking system. I suimply assumed it worked on the USAAF paradigm of having their ranks be basiclly identical to army ranks - Lieutenant, Captain, Major, and so on. An obvious mistake, but one I realized way, way too late. By the time I discovered Captain wasn't a legit RAF rank, it was pretty far into this thing.
So...the hastily improvised answer that I came up with around the time of Mordred is that due to the dual ground/air components of Excalibur, Page has dual rank in the Army and RAF. If that's cheap, well chalk it up to my shitty writing and fact-checking at the first stages of Excalibur. I can accept that.

SO, that leaves him as outranking Noble.

1) strangling a prisoner, who is currently flying the plane you're all in, and is the most trained person RE: said thing, is pretty... illogical.

Ah, but wasn't he also the same person who, after being taken prisoner, broke our trust and tried to act against us in a way that would (probably) get us all killed by tipping the Germans off that the transport had been hijacked?
I think in that case, some punitive action would be justified.

Can execution of a PoW be justified as retribution of that? Because 'Captain, could you watch over our little rascal here for me for a moment?' being the orders, randomly choking him is clearly not in response to a rapidly developing threat.

2) Even if she (Noble) doesn't have the rank of Squadron leader, who is the OC? Because the RAF wouldn't leave it with Robert Page as OC for 'however long', what with him being a PoW.

The exact situation of who the OC is is genuinely confused. I would say it's Page, but there's arguments for both sides.

Well, she's 'Sword Lead', for this operation, so I'd say she comes in on top.

[Len Hyet]

Is he Squadron leader, or is he Captain?

...Now that's a question with a long and slightly embarrassing answer.
Back in the day when I first started this thread, I was such a moron that I didn't even check the RAF's ranking system. I suimply assumed it worked on the USAAF paradigm of having their ranks be basiclly identical to army ranks - Lieutenant, Captain, Major, and so on. An obvious mistake, but one I realized way, way too late. By the time I discovered Captain wasn't a legit RAF rank, it was pretty far into this thing.
So...the hastily improvised answer that I came up with around the time of Mordred is that due to the dual ground/air components of Excalibur, Page has dual rank in the Army and RAF. If that's cheap, well chalk it up to my shitty writing and fact-checking at the first stages of Excalibur. I can accept that.

Cop out. Should have made it turn out that Page is a mentally unstable Captain in the Army who escaped from a mental hospital and forged his papers.

[Morrdh]

Will post tomorrow, first sleep.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Oh, I think it would be shitty of me to just say "DO IT OR ELSE", but I do want to lay out my argument here. I'll accept whichever - either Smythe accepting Page's orders or bringing it back up at the base or whichever, but there is some further clarification I can do.
Also: four edits l0l0c0pt3r

...Now that's a question with a long and slightly embarrassing answer.
Back in the day when I first started this thread, I was such a moron that I didn't even check the RAF's ranking system. I suimply assumed it worked on the USAAF paradigm of having their ranks be basiclly identical to army ranks - Lieutenant, Captain, Major, and so on. An obvious mistake, but one I realized way, way too late. By the time I discovered Captain wasn't a legit RAF rank, it was pretty far into this thing.
So...the hastily improvised answer that I came up with around the time of Mordred is that due to the dual ground/air components of Excalibur, Page has dual rank in the Army and RAF. If that's cheap, well chalk it up to my shitty writing and fact-checking at the first stages of Excalibur. I can accept that.

SO, that leaves him as outranking Noble.

Correct.

Ah, but wasn't he also the same person who, after being taken prisoner, broke our trust and tried to act against us in a way that would (probably) get us all killed by tipping the Germans off that the transport had been hijacked?
I think in that case, some punitive action would be justified.

Can execution of a PoW be justified as retribution of that? Because 'Captain, could you watch over our little rascal here for me for a moment?' being the orders, randomly choking him is clearly not in response to a rapidly developing threat.

Let's look at the facts for a second:
1) This guy was German, IE an enemy operative.
2) This guy was effectively taken prisoner.
3) After being taken prisoner, guy acts in such a way that could kill all of us, deliberately.
4) Due to circumstances, very little can practically be done to restrain this guy. Dire and immediate danger, probable lack of restraints, etc.
5) As such, two practicable options exist: a) to let the guy basically keep doing what he's doing, after already having proven that he is a literal flight risk of the worst kind, or b) ensure he is not a threat through the most expeditious and efficient way possible.
While Page's own grudge played a considerable part in the decision, I think it can be defended logically.

Well, she's 'Sword Lead', for this operation, so I'd say she comes in on top.

Recalling the Tempsford thread from months and months ago, the upshot of it was that due to the super-secret nature of Excalibur, losing somewhere between four and seven members (most officers, and one of them the leader), effectively retired the squadron from the front lines. Page was taken off of the active list and never actually replaced officially as squadron leader. When the squadron was sort-of reactivated for Highwire, Alix became acting S-L (unofficially, due to disagreements in command over who should be acting leader and whether or not she was fit for the job) with the understanding that if the op was successful, Page would retain his rank and return to command as soon as he was capable, assuming that he hadn't broken in captivity or sustained irreparable physical or mental damage.
So now Page is sort of back, and maybe-technically in command, but it's definitely a gray area.

Cop out. Should have made it turn out that Page is a mentally unstable Captain in the Army who escaped from a mental hospital and forged his papers.

[/quote]
Thanks for blowing the entire 1942 plot twist, jerk.
ALSO FFS POST I DON'T CARE IF YOU HAVE A COMPUTER OR NOT