W40K In Service to the Imperium: Episode 5 (OOC/OPEN/Reboot)

by **The Nihilistic view** » Wed May 07, 2014 8:12 pm

The Empire of Pretantia wrote:As a captain-commissar and a veteran of at least three campaigns alongside the Major, he certainly holds seniority over other captains as well as enough respect from Vanhayn to be commander overall.

The issue is a) it's up to the individual company commanders if they submit to Amsel's orders (Which due to him not having the powers to command are legally suggestions not orders) or not. b)they can refuse a order (suggestion) at any point and there is nothing Amsel can do about it. And c) Does that bode well for effective command if the person giving the orders (suggestion) can be ignored if the person receiving the order (suggestion) does not like the order (suggestion).

by **The Nihilistic view** » Wed May 07, 2014 8:31 pm

The Empire of Pretantia wrote:
The Nihilistic view wrote:ICly Major Vanhayn should take command. But that's not to say that OOCly you can't TG Aelosia with instructions on what direction we should head in to play out the RP as OP.

Too complicated and dependent on Aelosia's schedule. Vanhayn holds enough respect for Amsel to let him run things anyway, and as a commissar Amsel was closer to the staff than the average company commander and so would know a tad more about leading a regiment.

The issue has nothing to do with experience, skill or any other tangerble. It is purely about the right to command. Amsel does not have the right to command. To gain that right either Amsel has to execute all the regiment's current officers or a Lord or General of the commissariat has to brevet or permanently promote him to Colonel commissar. Otherwise as said above nobody has to follow what Amsel orders and if they ever make it off the planet he could find himself on the end of a court-marshal for usurpation of command powers.

He may well be and make a great commander or future colonel commissar but it's not within his powers currently.

by **Imperial City-States** » Wed May 07, 2014 8:33 pm

Well considering the situation no one can technically stop him as he can go 'HERETIC ' BLAM and end the argument..

by **The Nihilistic view** » Wed May 07, 2014 8:35 pm

Imperial City-States wrote:Well considering the situation no one can technically stop him as he can go 'HERETIC ' BLAM and end the argument..

Yeah, as I said. Execute the officers until there is nobody left to take command. At which point the rest of the regiment shoots him as they are fucked off he just shot their officers out of hand.

Could be funny though. :lol2:

by **Imperial City-States** » Wed May 07, 2014 8:38 pm

The Nihilistic view wrote:
Imperial City-States wrote:Well considering the situation no one can technically stop him as he can go 'HERETIC ' BLAM and end the argument..

Yeah, as I said. Execute the officers until there is nobody left to take command. At which point the rest of the regiment shoots him as they are fucked off he just shot their officers out of hand.

Could be funny though.

Well we all know that every Guardsmen use's his Infantry primer for toilet Paper and Iho stick paper almost as soon as he takes it out of the box so I don't think many people are going to know the technicalities of what a Commissar can and can't do aside from the higher ranking and junior officers

by **The Nihilistic view** » Wed May 07, 2014 8:43 pm

Imperial City-States wrote:
The Nihilistic view wrote:
Yeah, as I said. Execute the officers until there is nobody left to take command. At which point the rest of the regiment shoots him as they are fucked off he just shot their officers out of hand.

Could be funny though.

Well we all know that every Guardsmen use's his Infantry primer for toilet Paper and Iho stick paper almost as soon as he takes it out of the box so I don't think many people are going to know the technicalities of what a Commissar can and can't do aside from the higher ranking and junior officers

After just listening to the exchange they might have a problem with it.

Captain Harper "In imperial regulations you have no right to command this regiment."

Amsel *BANG*

Gaurdsman "That Bastard The Commie just shot our captain for no reason.......KILL HIM!!!" Yeah damn right, I fitted both your titles for him in!!

by **Imperial City-States** » Wed May 07, 2014 8:53 pm

The Nihilistic view wrote:
Imperial City-States wrote:
Well we all know that every Guardsmen use's his Infantry primer for toilet Paper and Iho stick paper almost as soon as he takes it out of the box so I don't think many people are going to know the technicalities of what a Commissar can and can't do aside from the higher ranking and junior officers

After just listening to the exchange they might have a problem with it.

Captain Harper "In imperial regulations you have no right to command this regiment."

Amsel *BANG*

Gaurdsman "That Bastard The Commie just shot our captain for no reason.......KILL HIM!!!" Yeah damn right, I fitted both your titles for him in!!

I am extremely proud as of right now

.... What regiment are you ? PDF ?

by **The Nihilistic view** » Wed May 07, 2014 9:06 pm

Imperial City-States wrote:
The Nihilistic view wrote:
After just listening to the exchange they might have a problem with it.

Captain Harper "In imperial regulations you have no right to command this regiment."

Amsel *BANG*

Gaurdsman "That Bastard The Commie just shot our captain for no reason.......KILL HIM!!!" Yeah damn right, I fitted both your titles for him in!!

I am extremely proud as of right now .... What regiment are you ? PDF ?

Yeah a whiteshield cadet training company of the PDF. Up in our mountain training camp, the plan is that we will meet and join up with the regiment as the regiment travels over the mountains to a town the otherside.

I think we would make a great team, Harper (My CO) likes to frag useless officers and your troops like to frag useless Commies. Toghether we can take on any useless imperial bastard and be victorious! HUZZAR!!!!

by **Imperial City-States** » Wed May 07, 2014 9:11 pm

The Nihilistic view wrote:
Imperial City-States wrote:

I am extremely proud as of right now .... What regiment are you ? PDF ?

Yeah a whiteshield cadet training company of the PDF. Up in our mountain training camp, the plan is that we will meet and join up with the regiment as the regiment travels over the mountains to a town the otherside.

I think we would make a great team, Harper (My CO) likes to frag useless officers and your troops like to frag useless Commies. Toghether we can take on any useless imperial bastard and be victorious! HUZZAR!!!!

Superb ! You have the bodies to absorb casualties for me even better ! I'm a Heavy Infantry Unit so hellguns and carapace for everyone !

We should team up with Creed for ultimate shennaigans in the Emperor's name

by **The Nihilistic view** » Wed May 07, 2014 9:18 pm

Imperial City-States wrote:
The Nihilistic view wrote:
Yeah a whiteshield cadet training company of the PDF. Up in our mountain training camp, the plan is that we will meet and join up with the regiment as the regiment travels over the mountains to a town the otherside.

I think we would make a great team, Harper (My CO) likes to frag useless officers and your troops like to frag useless Commies. Toghether we can take on any useless imperial bastard and be victorious! HUZZAR!!!!

Superb ! You have the bodies to absorb casualties for me even better ! I'm a Heavy Infantry Unit so hellguns and carapace for everyone !

We should team up with Creed for ultimate shennaigans in the Emperor's name

Good point, Harper was also from the ranks so Creed would be his idol. If Imperial guardsmen were allowed idols other than the Emperor that is.

Yeah 700 whiteshields and nearly half have only had a month or two of training so many are not much better than peasants. I do have a 180 strong veteran element though (The guys acting as instructors) but I should be able to spare some of my veteran's meat-shield.

by **Imperial City-States** » Wed May 07, 2014 9:19 pm

The Nihilistic view wrote:
Imperial City-States wrote:

Superb ! You have the bodies to absorb casualties for me even better ! I'm a Heavy Infantry Unit so hellguns and carapace for everyone !

We should team up with Creed for ultimate shennaigans in the Emperor's name

Good point, Harper was also from the ranks so Creed would be his idol. If Imperial guardsmen were allowed idols other than the Emperor that is.

Yeah 700 whiteshields and nearly half have only had a month or two of training so many are not much better than peasants. I do have a 180 strong veteran element though (The guys acting as instructors) but I should be able to spare some of my veteran's meat-shield.

Well i'm primarily Chimera mounted , 200 fighting men mounted in Seventeen Chimera's and most of my troops are well trained so they should be able to help once we get to the camp.

by **The Nihilistic view** » Wed May 07, 2014 9:21 pm

Imperial City-States wrote:
The Nihilistic view wrote:
Good point, Harper was also from the ranks so Creed would be his idol. If Imperial guardsmen were allowed idols other than the Emperor that is.

Yeah 700 whiteshields and nearly half have only had a month or two of training so many are not much better than peasants. I do have a 180 strong veteran element though (The guys acting as instructors) but I should be able to spare some of my veteran's meat-shield.

Well i'm primarily Chimera mounted , 200 fighting men mounted in Seventeen Chimera's and most of my troops are well trained so they should be able to help once we get to the camp.

*checks to see if the commie is around* Ok, that's a plan. We shall frag Amsel at my camp!

by **Great Houses of Xie** » Wed May 07, 2014 10:13 pm

Because he doesn't know anything about Amsel, Guiren would be leery of accepting him as the commanding officer. As pointed out, it's a pretty rare thing and Guiren would much rather take orders from a higher ranking Guard officer like Major Vanhayn. Should Vanhayn and other officers recommend Amsel be the commanding officer, Guiren would still be leery (because he doesn't know Amsel), but a little more comfortable because the other ranking officers trust him or order him to follow Amsel.

by **Bredtonia** » Wed May 07, 2014 10:43 pm

To be technical, the easiest way out for Amsel is to declare themselves out of communion with the original army, which the commissariat can do. In which case, a general staff must be created to run the army. This would be appointed by the Munitorum (rather than the militarism) as, technically, the only actual munitorum members present are the commissars, they could elect the staff. At which point, they elect amsel, giving him the rank of Lord General of the 2nd Pan Arcadia Army. (The 1st Pan Arcadia Army being the one we can't communicate with.) Then, as Lord General, he could assume direct regimental command. All perfectly legitimate, if circular.

by **The Nihilistic view** » Wed May 07, 2014 11:45 pm

Bredtonia wrote:To be technical, the easiest way out for Amsel is to declare themselves out of communion with the original army, which the commissariat can do. In which case, a general staff must be created to run the army. This would be appointed by the Munitorum (rather than the militarism) as, technically, the only actual munitorum members present are the commissars, they could elect the staff. At which point, they elect amsel, giving him the rank of Lord General of the 2nd Pan Arcadia Army. (The 1st Pan Arcadia Army being the one we can't communicate with.) Then, as Lord General, he could assume direct regimental command. All perfectly legitimate, if circular.

I presume you have source for commissars bellow the rank of colonel commissar to be able to elect themselves to high command ranks in the imperial guard and leapfrog the entire chain of command? I can't find anything. *scratches head*

Otherwise he would be on the staff as captain commissar. If for example a general staff was all but wiped out and the highest rank left was a colonel that colonel would not automatically become a Lord General. He would need to be promoted. A general staff is created when people high up in the chain of command appoint a General or above to command a campaign, the general then picks his staff. Ordinary Commissars can't elect themselves to such lofty positions. That would just be insane.

(Leaving aside all the other things required to even get to that position in the first place. I can't recall hearing of any of those steps before nor can I find any evidence from searches that even hints at the possibility.)

by **Carcharhinidae primari** » Thu May 08, 2014 12:06 am

Well, commisars have widely-ranging powers to do with maintaining purity and effectiveness (and discipline) of a regiment, depending on which source you use. And while they are outside the chain of command I believe a conclave of commissars has even more leeway. In the cain series for instance he gets a group of commissars to agree that the regulations should be followed in spirit, not letter, and using that 'saves' a group of his soldiers from summary execution, partly to keep morale in his regiment from crashing down and sending them back to a brawling mass. (the soldiers in question were still going to go to a penal regiment, but that's besides the point).
so.. if a commissar is respected by the regiment, which I'd say given the 'original' roster of companies is more or less a given for Amsel, and he believes that the available officers aren't suitable to take command, and the other commisars agree, he would be in a position to take charge for the good of the regiment untill a suitable officer becomes available.

ultimately... I think it's to do with what source you use...

and, as far as I see it, we are efffectively cut of from the munitorum and the entire chain of command, so all promotions and changes in organization would technically be brevets anyway. in that regard, since we're also taking in new companies not in the original roster, promotions and unusual situations will be the norm rather then the exception here.

another thing I see here, it's not Amsel who's saying 'I'm a colonel-Commissar now." it's the meeting of all the regimental commissars (the number of which seems rather drastically reduced).

by **The Nihilistic view** » Thu May 08, 2014 12:28 am

I'm not opposed to commissars being in command if it can be done legally. After all Harper likes commissars an awful lot more than most officers. I'm just afraid that if not done properly Harper's reaction would have to be the same as if it was a pompous upper class officer snob (As we know from his bio he has killed those sort before). He would think that Amsel is a twat cos he is doing whatever the fuck he likes promoting himself to dizzying ranks. I don't want to have to make him think Amsel is a twat but if I don't I won't be sticking to his background.

by **Carcharhinidae primari** » Thu May 08, 2014 12:36 am

I think it can be done legally, but I'm not certain if all the lore agrees on that. really should read the gaunt's ghosts series at some point, maybe that one gives a better image of it.

also, ICS, I'm going to react a little to your vehicles, which I assume to have an urban camo pattern. If I'm wrong in this, I'll modify the post or remove the reaction outright.

by **The Nihilistic view** » Thu May 08, 2014 12:41 am

Carcharhinidae primari wrote:I think it can be done legally, but I'm not certain if all the lore agrees on that. really should read the gaunt's ghosts series at some point, maybe that one gives a better image of it.

also, ICS, I'm going to react a little to your vehicles, which I assume to have an urban camo pattern. If I'm wrong in this, I'll modify the post or remove the reaction outright.

Gaunt was promoted to the rank of Colonel and given command of the Tanith regiments. He did not assume command in a war, battle or anything like that.

by **Carcharhinidae primari** » Thu May 08, 2014 12:47 am

The Nihilistic view wrote:
Carcharhinidae primari wrote:I think it can be done legally, but I'm not certain if all the lore agrees on that. really should read the gaunt's ghosts series at some point, maybe that one gives a better image of it.

also, ICS, I'm going to react a little to your vehicles, which I assume to have an urban camo pattern. If I'm wrong in this, I'll modify the post or remove the reaction outright.

Gaunt was promoted to the rank of Colonel and given command of the Tanith regiments. He did not assume command in a war, battle or anything like that.

ahh, okay.. well.. as I said, I think a conclave of commissars can give this position to another commissar, of course calling two commissars a conclave is stretching it a bit, on the other hand, they're probably the last commissars on the planet.

by **Cymrea** » Thu May 08, 2014 4:08 am

Editted my original application on page 100; I'm pretty sure it's complete now. I include my detailed ORBAT below.

by **Aelosia** » Thu May 08, 2014 4:09 am

OK, let's start dealing with this discussion you managed you overstrech for two pages.

Imperial City-States wrote:Technically the Commissar's have no command ability over Imperial Guard units , unless they are awarded the rank of Colonel Commissar because of extreme circumstances. A Commissar's words are generally followed out of fear of receiving a bolt to the brain pan

Amsel still holds a Captain rank. A Guard Captain rank.

Imperial City-States wrote:
And my Captain is by no mean's obligated to listen to another officer of equivalent rank as the Commsariat technically has no military authority. As Klaus is unaware of the CPT-COM situation his reaction is reasonable IMO as it's a rather rare thing for a Commissar to become an officer.

You are obligated to listen to another officer of equivalent rank until noted otherwise or overriding his rank. For all you know, the Captain challenging you has seniority over you, given he's within a regiment and you are commanding a company. You'll get orders from Vanhayn in the IC I am writing now, who is a Major, so we can order this to rest.

The Nihilistic view wrote:You can't brevet Amsel on his own authority. You need somebody with the power to do that to be present on the battlefield.

EDIT: In this case a Lord commissar or commissar General. Neither of which are known to present on Pan Arcadia by any of our IC characters. Even if you decide to invent one somewhere else on the planet and they happen to get in touch that won't happen in time for Imps entry to the fort.

Amsel wasn't supposed to Brevet himself. As you pointed out, he can't do that. If you guys read the IC carefully, he summoned a general assembly of Commissars to decide a new chain of command for the regiment. Only one other Commissar attended. Mine. As is pointed out in my IC post, Scharnblücher was the one that proposed the brevet, in accordance with Vanhayn's wishes. Commissars' were supposed to vote on that, but there is only another Commissar present. That's why Scharnblücher said Amsel needed her, because he needs her vote to approve the Brevet. It's not Amsel giving him a Brevet, it is a Commissar's Committe backed by an officer's gathering. Even if said commissar gathering is only one other Commissar.

The Nihilistic view wrote:Current next in command in the absence of the Colonel is Major Vanhayn.

Depends. DSM would be next in command. Vanhayn is artillery, and in the fluff says Munitorum adscribe armour/artillery under infantry. Vanhayn is artillery and as such under DSM in the chain of command. Anyway, I think both Majors agree they prefer Amsel in charge. Vanhayn for sure wants Amsel in charge deferring her authority to him and supporting him there for various reasons detailed below.

Legital wrote:The commissariat has the power to take on command authority for several occasions, such as an officer failing to perform to standards. A commissar would take command there. In this case, the Colonel is incapacitated, and all the company commanders need to be kept within their realm of specialty. Amsel is a Captain-Commissar, holding a duel officer and commissariat rank. He is capable of being a Colonel-Commissar.

As he is an exceptional leader and of a good tactical mind, he will be the one to take command of the regiment. Vanhayn would be the next in rank, technically, but the contenders would be the other couple regiment majors. Seniority would have to be established, which there is no time to do.

Amsel is taking command on authority granted to him by the commissariat, and taking on a brevet of colonel as Colonel-Commissar. To remove a major from their company and place them in command of the regiment could cause several issues in it's own, such as finding a suitable company replacement. Perhaps the second of a company is not a good leader, and then suddenly now a company is not performing to top standards. As it seems, the vast majority of officers in each company are quite competent. To move that structure around would do more harm than good. That is why Amsel will be taking command. Also, for sake of me being OP, I need to be able to steer the regiment in the right direction.

He is certainly capable, given the regiment gives him the authority to do so. As regiment I mean the officers and the other Commissars present. Although I still defend that DSM as infantry holds seniority over Vanhayn, who is technically a Gunnery Major, he's also from a specialist company, not a rank and file one. As such, seniority is blurry. But I think it was clear both Majors want Amsel in charge, so it is not like they are fighting over it. Indeed, I think they don't want to leave their company to command the regiment, as you said. Those companies need their entire attention, and the character of their command is not proper for regimental command.

I see it as a charisma problem. DSM is a stormtrooper officer who prefers privacy and confidentiality to work. He works in the shadows and I don't think he's interested in standing in a spotlight, and also I don't think he's a capable mass leader, and he recognizes that himself. He's a spec-ops specialist and the logistical nightmare of running an entire regiment more likely makes him loathe the prospect of getting the post. Vanhayn has the logistical and coordination abilities and the tactical skills, but she's not a good figurehead. As a first, she's a woman, and male officers sometimes have problems with that. As a second, she's an artillery and logistics officer. She's also a highborn officer cadre and she knows many companies resent that kind of commander. Also, she's not a charismatic, Do you want to live forever kind of officer. She's more the 678-XM0-54 unit move to coordinates 598-423-823 in 4th quadrant kind of officer. That's not a good leading figure after all.

Amsel has the charisma and the motivation qualities needed that both Vanhayn and DSM lack. Normal troopers loathe both gunners and gloryboys. Amsel is neither, but he has specialist motivation training, at heart, he's charisma-trained, and that's what both Majors want in front of the regiment, especially as it is a melting pot of different units. Amsel has the force of personality both DSM and Vanhayn don't have to keep the regiment united and the companies working together. Also, we must remember this is a temporary rank, so it is better for Amsel to hold it as it is easier to strip him down when the Colonel recovers or the mission is finished.

As Scharnblücher said, Amsel would need to have both DSM and Vanhayn as close advisors, effectively running the regiment as a triumvirate although for regiment purposes Amsel will be the figurehead, just because he's handsome and charismatic, politically trained and all that.

And we are not even speaking yet about OOC reasons, which are clear.

Imperial City-States wrote:Either way , the Vakarian's have done what they will and aren't going to change. Everyone is on edge because of the PDF and Klaus is likely under just as much suspicion about the base as the defenders are about the convoy.

Be warned that's a recipe for getting a shell through the mouth, however. Not complying to orders for approaching the Fort is asking for getting fired upon, loyal or not loyal. Things are sketchy at best. I'll deal with this in a IC manner, however. You have Company authority and you are being challenged by regimental authority. Up for you to consider, however.

The Nihilistic view wrote:
That can be done in other ways than by taking illegal actions and expecting everyone to follow them.

The occasions that commissars have the power to take command is if they execute an officer or senior NCO. In this case to hold the authority to command Amsel would have to execute at least the Major, the DSM the four captains, Imps captain who is just entering the base the commander and it's debatable whether he would have to also execute the lieutenants and other senior sergeants or not.

Or if the Majors themselves appoint Amsel as their superior, that is. This fact renders most of the point moot. Amsel is not fighting them to make a regimental coup and assume command. He's getting nominated.

Legital wrote:No idea. Likely no, not at all. However, I mentioned a point in having the Thermidorian Commissar and the Stormtrooper Major bearing witness to the occasion in lack of there being proper paper work to fill out for the occasion of a grant of brevet rank in my upcoming post. I mean, it is a pretty big emergency situation. The highest rank would be one of the majors. Again, company commanders. Amsel is the ranking commissariat official.

More than bearing witness, you need their signature and approval to do so. I think both I and Bone Fort were in agreement to propose and approve, however, so that's out of the question. When Amsel faces the rest of the company, he will have a paper signed by the entire regimental commissariate (even if that means just Scharnblücher signature) and Vanhayn and DSM. That will give him the legitimacy he needs.

Imperial City-States wrote:If Amsel becomes the Commanding officer over the Vakarian 82nd , Klaus and the men in his unit are going to have some severe issues. Granted it would add a very interesting dynamic having people who want an excuse to shoot you in the back. I think it'd be neat for story purpose

This I approve. There is always a political dimension in all Imperial Guard fluff novels. I think this is ours and makes the story better. It is a new angle and I love if this discussion somehow translates into the IC.

The Empire of Pretantia wrote:As a captain-commissar and a veteran of at least three campaigns alongside the Major, he certainly holds seniority over other captains as well as enough respect from Vanhayn to be commander overall.

If DSM and Vanhayn both renounce the command, (in that order), he's clearly next in rank. He has seniority over all the other Captains.

He may not receive a brevet for colonel unless someone of appropriate rank (general or higher) gives it to him. Why can't we just concede that, yes, this commissar and proven commander should be in charge regardless of rank?

Or regimental command appoints him as such regardless of rank. If Amsel can't get to be Colone-Commissar, he would be like "Captain-Commissar Amsel, acting Commander of the Segmentian 557th".

The Nihilistic view wrote:ICly Major Vanhayn should take command. But that's not to say that OOCly you can't TG Aelosia with instructions on what direction we should head in to play out the RP as OP.

Honestly, OOC I would like to take command. Entirely honestly, I want to be co-OP of next episode with Vanhayn as Regimental Colonel. But given the current situation, ICly Vanhayn doesn't want to take command. What makes you think Legital and me do not cooperate in the RP makingright now? I'm the OP of the sidequest RP thread.

Legital wrote:I think Aelosia wants Amsel to take command, but as I said, post will not be up for a day or two. We'll see what she thinks when she checks the OOC here.

Both OOCly and ICly, I want Amsel to take command. I think it's clear already.

The Empire of Pretantia wrote:Too complicated and dependent on Aelosia's schedule. Vanhayn holds enough respect for Amsel to let him run things anyway, and as a commissar Amsel was closer to the staff than the average company commander and so would know a tad more about leading a regiment.

As I said, Vanhayn would remain suggesting logistical and tactical courses to Amsel, as would DSM. But yes, she respects him and knows that the regiment needs the daring figurehead he can become if he takes charge.

The Nihilistic view wrote:
The issue is a) it's up to the individual company commanders if they submit to Amsel's orders (Which due to him not having the powers to command are legally suggestions not orders) or not. b)they can refuse a order (suggestion) at any point and there is nothing Amsel can do about it. And c) Does that bode well for effective command if the person giving the orders (suggestion) can be ignored if the person receiving the order (suggestion) does not like the order (suggestion).

No. The regiment is giving the order. Amsel is just the mouth voicing the orders. And he's a senior Captain as well. Of course a company can refuse to accept his command, but as far as I know, none of those originally present in Fort Macharius wanted or were willing to do so. Regarding recently folded companies, it is up to them if they want to accept regimental authority and get integrated or not. If they don't, they can leave the regimental premises and go somewhere else. More likely Vanhayn would suggest they stay at Fort Macharius as a rearguard while the 557th proceeds to the Bastion. Without telling them about the reactor thing, that's a given.

The Nihilistic view wrote:The issue has nothing to do with experience, skill or any other tangerble. It is purely about the right to command. Amsel does not have the right to command. To gain that right either Amsel has to execute all the regiment's current officers or a Lord or General of the commissariat has to brevet or permanently promote him to Colonel commissar. Otherwise as said above nobody has to follow what Amsel orders and if they ever make it off the planet he could find himself on the end of a court-marshal for usurpation of command powers.

He may well be and make a great commander or future colonel commissar but it's not within his powers currently.

The issue is "who are you willing to follow". Commissariate gathering and officer cadre can determine the right of command. They just did. The 557th wants Amsel at the front. They proposed Amsel. He didn't propose himself. That gives him legitimacy. If someone doesn't accept the brevet then it would translate, as I said earlier, to "Captain-Commissar Amsel, acting Commander of the Segmentian 557th". If they make off-planet he would instantly step down, of course. And emergency measures are well known during battle times.

Imperial City-States wrote:Well considering the situation no one can technically stop him as he can go 'HERETIC ' BLAM and end the argument..

Not really. Who is willing to stop him? Not certainly the other commissars or the two Majors, who are the ones proposing him to the rank. Regarding the new companies, as I said, those not integrated in the 557th original ORBAT, it is a take or leave it proposition. They can refuse to accept Amsel's authority and go somewhere else, refusing to be folded into the regiment. Of course, Vanhayn or DSM could still order them around. They coud even order them to follow Amsel's orders, which would ironic at best.

Funnily enough, Amsel is not really the HERETIC BLAM! commissar type. Ironically, that's Vanhayn. During Episode One of this RP she summarily executed another company's officer because he refused to heed the regimental commissar. Depending on what way this situation goes, she might be forced to do so again.

Great Houses of Xie wrote:Because he doesn't know anything about Amsel, Guiren would be leery of accepting him as the commanding officer. As pointed out, it's a pretty rare thing and Guiren would much rather take orders from a higher ranking Guard officer like Major Vanhayn. Should Vanhayn and other officers recommend Amsel be the commanding officer, Guiren would still be leery (because he doesn't know Amsel), but a little more comfortable because the other ranking officers trust him or order him to follow Amsel.

This is an attitude I can understand perfectly.

Bredtonia wrote:To be technical, the easiest way out for Amsel is to declare themselves out of communion with the original army, which the commissariat can do. In which case, a general staff must be created to run the army. This would be appointed by the Munitorum (rather than the militarism) as, technically, the only actual munitorum members present are the commissars, they could elect the staff. At which point, they elect amsel, giving him the rank of Lord General of the 2nd Pan Arcadia Army. (The 1st Pan Arcadia Army being the one we can't communicate with.) Then, as Lord General, he could assume direct regimental command. All perfectly legitimate, if circular.

Given that the original army staff is completely destroyed, (a known fact given by the orbitals), the 557th commanding officer could, in theory, get a Brevet to General of that same 1st Army, but that would be impractical and silly. The 557th is operating under the premise they are the highest remaining loyal military authority in the planet, and will continue to do so until a higher authority is contacted. (For example, if the sidequest contacts the High Arbiter, or we find a surviving General and so forth). Creating an army could be complicated, but not creating a regiment.

Technically, there are three Munitorum members present. Captain-Commissar Amsel, Commissar Scharnblücher and Munitorum Adept Bellatrix (funnily enough, that's my logistics clerk). I think the three of them could agree on creating a new regiment called the Pan Arcadian 1st Regiment "Liberators", with Amsel on charge. Your point is sharp, and I considered this option sometime ago. I just thought it was simpler for the Munitorum officials, (meaning Scharnblücher and Amsel) to put Amsel on charge, get the clerk to sign and be done with it, remaining as the 557th for all purposes. Less paperwork.

The Nihilistic view wrote:I presume you have source for commissars bellow the rank of colonel commissar to be able to elect themselves to high command ranks in the imperial guard and leapfrog the entire chain of command? I can't find anything. *scratches head*

Otherwise he would be on the staff as captain commissar. If for example a general staff was all but wiped out and the highest rank left was a colonel that colonel would not automatically become a Lord General. He would need to be promoted. A general staff is created when people high up in the chain of command appoint a General or above to command a campaign, the general then picks his staff. Ordinary Commissars can't elect themselves to such lofty positions. That would just be insane.

(Leaving aside all the other things required to even get to that position in the first place. I can't recall hearing of any of those steps before nor can I find any evidence from searches that even hints at the possibility.)

He's not electing himself. Officers and Commissars from the 557th are electing him.

In Necropolis Gaunt pulls a similar stunt to place himself in charge of planetary defense, stepping even over another General (Grizmund). He pulls it off mainly because Grizmund is ok with it, and Gaunt doesn't get court martialled afterwards.

Carcharhinidae primari wrote:Well, commisars have widely-ranging powers to do with maintaining purity and effectiveness (and discipline) of a regiment, depending on which source you use. And while they are outside the chain of command I believe a conclave of commissars has even more leeway. In the cain series for instance he gets a group of commissars to agree that the regulations should be followed in spirit, not letter, and using that 'saves' a group of his soldiers from summary execution, partly to keep morale in his regiment from crashing down and sending them back to a brawling mass. (the soldiers in question were still going to go to a penal regiment, but that's besides the point).

Yes, there's also that book. That's exactly what is happening here. A Commissar conclave. Thanks for the word. Sadly that conclave is just Amsel and Scharnblücher, but still works.

The Nihilistic view wrote:I'm not opposed to commissars being in command if it can be done legally. After all Harper likes commissars an awful lot more than most officers. I'm just afraid that if not done properly Harper's reaction would have to be the same as if it was a pompous upper class officer snob (As we know from his bio he has killed those sort before). He would think that Amsel is a twat cos he is doing whatever the fuck he likes promoting himself to dizzying ranks. I don't want to have to make him think Amsel is a twat but if I don't I won't be sticking to his background.

So you would resist Vanhayn equally anyway

She's a "pompous upper class officer snob". I would like this discussion somehow translate into the IC for story purposes, however.

The Nihilistic view wrote:Gaunt was promoted to the rank of Colonel and given command of the Tanith regiments. He did not assume command in a war, battle or anything like that.

Vervunhive at the end. Aexe Cardinal at the end. He has pulled this precise stunt like 3 or four times during the series. In his case, it is Gaunt usurping a General rank and post during a campaing. In ours, it is a Captain taking a Colonel rank and post. Surprisingly similar.

by **Carcharhinidae primari** » Thu May 08, 2014 4:34 am

One tiny point there, it was a lieutenant challenging the incoming company, so whilst it is indeed a case of regimental/company authority. the valkarian (probably spelt that wrong. in a bit of a hurry here) captain does outrank challenge given.

by **The Nihilistic view** » Thu May 08, 2014 4:44 am

Aelosia wrote:
The Nihilistic view wrote:I'm not opposed to commissars being in command if it can be done legally. After all Harper likes commissars an awful lot more than most officers. I'm just afraid that if not done properly Harper's reaction would have to be the same as if it was a pompous upper class officer snob (As we know from his bio he has killed those sort before). He would think that Amsel is a twat cos he is doing whatever the fuck he likes promoting himself to dizzying ranks. I don't want to have to make him think Amsel is a twat but if I don't I won't be sticking to his background.

So you would resist Vanhayn equally anyway She's a "pompous upper class officer snob". I would like this discussion somehow translate into the IC for story purposes, however.

Harper would resist her anyway whether she was in command ~~for being a woman~~* or not for being a pompous upper class officer snob (I shall now coin the acronym PUCOS!). So without thorough explanation which I presume will be given when you guys pull up he would have Amsel to dislike as well. I had already marked Vanhayn's card BTW

. There are also a couple of others that are possibles, though I will leave you all to wonder whether your officers will be on Harper's shit list. Though from what I can tell him and Schweitzer will hit it off.

*That's actually one of the surprising things about Harper. Despite his other archetypal traits misogyny and thinking women make crap guardsmen is not one of them, probably too busy getting aroused.

What makes you think Legital and me do not cooperate in the RP makingright now?

I have been around the block enough not to assume anything, so put things as questions rather than statements. To me that seems less assuming and abrasive that way.

by **Bredtonia** » Thu May 08, 2014 7:26 am

The Nihilistic view wrote:
Bredtonia wrote:To be technical, the easiest way out for Amsel is to declare themselves out of communion with the original army, which the commissariat can do. In which case, a general staff must be created to run the army. This would be appointed by the Munitorum (rather than the militarism) as, technically, the only actual munitorum members present are the commissars, they could elect the staff. At which point, they elect amsel, giving him the rank of Lord General of the 2nd Pan Arcadia Army. (The 1st Pan Arcadia Army being the one we can't communicate with.) Then, as Lord General, he could assume direct regimental command. All perfectly legitimate, if circular.

I presume you have source for commissars bellow the rank of colonel commissar to be able to elect themselves to high command ranks in the imperial guard and leapfrog the entire chain of command? I can't find anything. *scratches head*

Otherwise he would be on the staff as captain commissar. If for example a general staff was all but wiped out and the highest rank left was a colonel that colonel would not automatically become a Lord General. He would need to be promoted. A general staff is created when people high up in the chain of command appoint a General or above to command a campaign, the general then picks his staff. Ordinary Commissars can't elect themselves to such lofty positions. That would just be insane.

(Leaving aside all the other things required to even get to that position in the first place. I can't recall hearing of any of those steps before nor can I find any evidence from searches that even hints at the possibility.)

When an army is created, the Munitorium may appoint anyone, even one of their own members or someone who's never served a form of armed service in their life, to the general counsel. The rank of Generals and above are never promotions, only appointments, and always temporary. It's a funny, strange, and civilian-oversighty way of doing thing, but they appoint people to General, rather than appointing people who are already generals.

As Aelosia said, it's a huge paperwork pile, but it's an entirely legal one. Of course, as also noted, there's plenty of examples of them "filling in" on the chain of command when an officer is lost (usually to the commissars own bolt, but hey). The lore is unspecific, but I feel one could assume they're allowed to do so even when they didn't do the execution. As we have no source of replacement officers, he has a valid reason to keep it until such time additional officers can be found. As the highest ranking and most senior commissar, it's most logical for him to fill in the highest missing officer position. In which case he'd be "Acting-Colonel Captain-Commissar Amsel".

W40K In Service to the Imperium: Episode 5 (OOC/OPEN/Reboot)

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