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Band of Brothers[OOC/Open]

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Ausira
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Postby Ausira » Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:37 am

The Ferret Revolution wrote:
Ausira wrote:Should we be more careful who we let become NCO's, and CO's?
I'm seeing people just easily applying for a Sergeant and just getting it.

That;s what I was thinking. In fact when i first joined this I was going to sign up as Capt. Winters but decided that it would kind of be a douchebag move to automatically get the command of Easy Company just because. So instead I went humble and became a private first class medic.


Same here, I went Private for a reason. But, should we have... IC promotions? Everyone starts as an Enlisted, Pvt/PfC and they work their way up? And, if they feel they should be an NCO, IC'ly ask Sobel. (That'll be fun!)
"In the Soviet Army, it takes more courage to retreat than advance." - Josef Stalin


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Vortukia
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Postby Vortukia » Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:40 am

Name: Sgt. Alex, Dwen
Role: Elite Resistance Fighter
Main weapon: SGT-44, Springfield Rifle with scope, M2-LB's (Bouncing Bettys)
Equipment besides weapons: Photograph of woman. Journal and notes on Nazi movements
Appearance(Picture is requested, but not necessary):
Image [imghttp://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&biw=1366&bih=690&tbm=isch&tbnid=x_zB2titDK_TJM:&imgrefurl=http://www.andrewpurcell.net/%3Fp%3D121&docid=R4tNAx4FAIgVBM&imgurl=http://www.andrewpurcell.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/interior-tropa.jpg&w=350&h=250&ei=4Mz4UeLwEbay4APu4YDYBg&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:30,s:0,i:178&iact=rc&page=2&tbnh=190&tbnw=247&start=12&ndsp=22&tx=167&ty=107][/img]
Bio: Fighting for freedom all over EU he is very skilled and has made a long trek voyage to find a company to help with
SIDE NOTE: If D day happens I want to help

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Ausira
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Postby Ausira » Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:48 am

Vortukia wrote:Name: Sgt. Alex, Dwen
Role: Elite Resistance Fighter
Main weapon: SGT-44, Springfield Rifle with scope, M2-LB's (Bouncing Bettys)
Equipment besides weapons: Photograph of woman. Journal and notes on Nazi movements
Appearance(Picture is requested, but not necessary):
Image [imghttp://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&biw=1366&bih=690&tbm=isch&tbnid=x_zB2titDK_TJM:&imgrefurl=http://www.andrewpurcell.net/%3Fp%3D121&docid=R4tNAx4FAIgVBM&imgurl=http://www.andrewpurcell.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/interior-tropa.jpg&w=350&h=250&ei=4Mz4UeLwEbay4APu4YDYBg&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:30,s:0,i:178&iact=rc&page=2&tbnh=190&tbnw=247&start=12&ndsp=22&tx=167&ty=107][/img]
Bio: Fighting for freedom all over EU he is very skilled and has made a long trek voyage to find a company to help with
SIDE NOTE: If D day happens I want to help


See what I mean?
Hey, Alex Dwen guy, you can't have a SGT-44, that's a german gun, and you can't have two rifles like that. Plus, a Springfield Rifle isn't a NCO's+ role, it stays with the enlisted men. And, EU=European Union, doesn't exist right now. D-Day... please specify which invasion. Elite Resistance Fighter? You are a Sergeant, apparently, not a Resistance. Resistance is for the people, and by the people, not a hired military. Mostly, Resistances are Militia. At most, supported by militaries, but... you can't be what you have. Notes on Nazi movements? You can't have that, and not bring it to your CO's, or you'd be facing a Court Martial.

Also- the bouncing betties? Really? They are reserved (In reality) to the Infantry companies of the Military. What do I mean? USMC, and Army Infantry. You are a Paratrooper, that's Band of Brothers. I'd suggest watching the show (Pirating if you fancy) and try coming back at us.

E: Forgot to add, why would a Sergeant carry around explosives like that daily, though? At most, if you are preparing for a demolition job, you ready yourself for it through the Armory in your F.O.B. (Forward Operating Base, where they tend to the wounded and plan future attacks, and also where they hold men preparing to move. In World-War 2 Europe... there's no such thing as a individual like you.)
Another thing. At most, the only time and chance you get to have a SGT-44, is when your gun runs out of ammo, and if you do run out of ammo on the battlefield, most of the time, the enemy notices you. You become a H.V.T. (High Valued Target)
Last edited by Ausira on Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
"In the Soviet Army, it takes more courage to retreat than advance." - Josef Stalin


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Weltmachtistan
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Postby Weltmachtistan » Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:52 am

Nation name: Weltmachtistan
Character name: Christopher "Grizzly" Griswald
Age: 23
Appearance: At 6'4, 245 pounds, he certainly lives up to his nickname. He generally wears a combat gest, along with crossed bandoliers. An oversized helmet upon his head, with quite a few tallies scratched upon it, needless to say a kill-count. His combat pants holding a few tears.
Rank: I may need some help here :p
Role: Machine-Gunner
Weaponry: Browning M1919A4, 1911, a couple grenades, and a Bowie knife
Personality: Some may describe him with more... vulgar words. But, Grizzly us an absolute blessing upon the battlefield, all he needs us guys throwing handgrenades at him for the rest of his days.
Bio: Grizzly, earning his nickname through the gutteral grunting heard throughout the battlefield when he gets his hands on the enemy. And, quite frankly, because he looks like a bear. Grizzly was one of the few men put on this Earth, who were simply born for war. His love of lighting up enemy encampments with 50 caliber rounds is... Uncanny to say the least. Despite his rough edges, he is a powerful force on the battlefield, much to his enjoyment.
Anything else: Ready to collect me some Nazi skulls, sir!

Yes, he's loosely based off of "Animal Mother" from FMJ. :p
Last edited by Weltmachtistan on Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Ausira
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Postby Ausira » Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:54 am

Weltmachtistan wrote:Nation name: Weltmachtistan
Character name: Christopher "Grizzly" Griswald
Age: 23
Appearance: At 6'4, 245 pounds, he certainly lives up to his nickname. He generally wears a combat gest, along with crossed bandoliers. An oversized helmet upon his head, with quite a few tallies scratched upon it, needless to say a kill-count. His combat pants holding a few tears.
Rank: I may need some help here :p
Role: Machine-Gunner
Weaponry: Browning M2
Personality: Some may describe him with more... vulgar words. But, Grizzly us an absolute blessing upon the battlefield, all he needs us guys throwing handgrenades at him for the rest of his days.
Bio: Grizzly, earning his nickname through the gutteral grunting heard throughout the battlefield when he gets his hands on the enemy. And, quite frankly, because he looks like a bear. Grizzly was one of the few men put on this Earth, who were simply born for war. His love of lighting up enemy encampments with 50 caliber rounds is... Uncanny to say the least. Despite his rough edges, he is a powerful force on the battlefield, much to his enjoyment.
Anything else: Ready to collect me some Nazi skulls, sir!

Yes, he's loosely based off of "Animal Mother" from FMJ. :p


Oh, I got you for this one. Private-First-Class, or Private. YOur choice. Browning-M2? Nice. Loved the Anything else, part too. (I can't choose if you are to be accepted or not, but I'm just here to help) Also, be careful on how tall you are in these times. Most of the time, people who were really tall in these days (6'4 is considered tall in 40's) had been dealing with bone issued, mostly scoliosis. Be wary of high heights! For me, I'd say everything looks great.
Last edited by Ausira on Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
"In the Soviet Army, it takes more courage to retreat than advance." - Josef Stalin


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New Panti
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Postby New Panti » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:29 am

Weltmachtistan wrote:Nation name: Weltmachtistan
Character name: Christopher "Grizzly" Griswald
Age: 23
Appearance: At 6'4, 245 pounds, he certainly lives up to his nickname. He generally wears a combat gest, along with crossed bandoliers. An oversized helmet upon his head, with quite a few tallies scratched upon it, needless to say a kill-count. His combat pants holding a few tears.
Rank: I may need some help here :p
Role: Machine-Gunner
Weaponry: Browning M2, 1911, a couple grenades, and a Bowie knife
Personality: Some may describe him with more... vulgar words. But, Grizzly us an absolute blessing upon the battlefield, all he needs us guys throwing handgrenades at him for the rest of his days.
Bio: Grizzly, earning his nickname through the gutteral grunting heard throughout the battlefield when he gets his hands on the enemy. And, quite frankly, because he looks like a bear. Grizzly was one of the few men put on this Earth, who were simply born for war. His love of lighting up enemy encampments with 50 caliber rounds is... Uncanny to say the least. Despite his rough edges, he is a powerful force on the battlefield, much to his enjoyment.
Anything else: Ready to collect me some Nazi skulls, sir!

Yes, he's loosely based off of "Animal Mother" from FMJ. :p

Accepted.
Vortukia wrote:Name: Sgt. Alex, Dwen
Role: Elite Resistance Fighter
Main weapon: SGT-44, Springfield Rifle with scope, M2-LB's (Bouncing Bettys)
Equipment besides weapons: Photograph of woman. Journal and notes on Nazi movements
Appearance(Picture is requested, but not necessary):
Image [imghttp://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&biw=1366&bih=690&tbm=isch&tbnid=x_zB2titDK_TJM:&imgrefurl=http://www.andrewpurcell.net/%3Fp%3D121&docid=R4tNAx4FAIgVBM&imgurl=http://www.andrewpurcell.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/interior-tropa.jpg&w=350&h=250&ei=4Mz4UeLwEbay4APu4YDYBg&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:30,s:0,i:178&iact=rc&page=2&tbnh=190&tbnw=247&start=12&ndsp=22&tx=167&ty=107][/img]
Bio: Fighting for freedom all over EU he is very skilled and has made a long trek voyage to find a company to help with
SIDE NOTE: If D day happens I want to help

Denied. Personality has to be filled out, and in the RP we're only paratroopers, not resistance fighters. Also the STG-44 didn't even exist until 1944.

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Krazakistan
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Postby Krazakistan » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:32 am

New Panti wrote:
Vortukia wrote:Name: Sgt. Alex, Dwen
Role: Elite Resistance Fighter
Main weapon: SGT-44, Springfield Rifle with scope, M2-LB's (Bouncing Bettys)
Equipment besides weapons: Photograph of woman. Journal and notes on Nazi movements
Appearance(Picture is requested, but not necessary):
Image [imghttp://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&biw=1366&bih=690&tbm=isch&tbnid=x_zB2titDK_TJM:&imgrefurl=http://www.andrewpurcell.net/%3Fp%3D121&docid=R4tNAx4FAIgVBM&imgurl=http://www.andrewpurcell.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/interior-tropa.jpg&w=350&h=250&ei=4Mz4UeLwEbay4APu4YDYBg&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:30,s:0,i:178&iact=rc&page=2&tbnh=190&tbnw=247&start=12&ndsp=22&tx=167&ty=107][/img]
Bio: Fighting for freedom all over EU he is very skilled and has made a long trek voyage to find a company to help with
SIDE NOTE: If D day happens I want to help

Denied. Personality has to be filled out, and in the RP we're only paratroopers, not resistance fighters. Also the STG-44 didn't even exist until 1944.


There were, however, prototype versions that saw limited service starting in 1942, the STG-44, however, wasn't even issued to units until 1944, and even then most of them were given to units fighting the Russians....Yeah, I know a good amount about WW2 and if I ever start sounding like a smart ass then I apologize in advance. Haha
Last edited by Krazakistan on Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Vortukia
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Postby Vortukia » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:40 am

Most weapons were stolen and my personality is very headstrong but willing to get things done also take away thespringfield I guess and I'm ex German. But now fighting for the free does this now allow me in?

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Ausira
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Postby Ausira » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:49 am

Vortukia wrote:Most weapons were stolen and my personality is very headstrong but willing to get things done also take away thespringfield I guess and I'm ex German. But now fighting for the free does this now allow me in?

"Ex-German"? You can't be an Ex-German. German is your background...
If you mean Ex-Wehrmacht, I don't think America would really accept you into the Army, mostly at these times. But, like the problem with everyone else, you'd be killed for war-tension. (One of your men either not liking you or mistaking you for a German) But, in reality, Germans were accepted, just they were mostly killed (*Cough* Accidentally *Cough cough*) by their own men. Be it an accident, or on purpose. And another thing... since you just came out of the Wehrmacht Army, CO's would be suspicious of you, so odds are, you'll never make it pass Corporal.

E: Also... Stolen or not, you are out of uniform and using non-regulated weapons. Army (And mostly CO's) get pissy at that. They can understand a souvenir Luger but... an SGT-44? We're in 1943, I believe. No such thing as a SGT-44.
Last edited by Ausira on Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
"In the Soviet Army, it takes more courage to retreat than advance." - Josef Stalin


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Vortukia
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Postby Vortukia » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:55 am

SGT-44's were in prototype stages during 1943 only around 200 models existed at the time. I'm not in uniform and I was never in the german army just a german citizen who saw shit going down and started looting Nazi Shit killing them and making my way to allied forces to see if I can help although I was in the German army before the Nazi take over and made it to Sgt. Now rank does not mean anything anymore as now I am a rebel.

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Ausira
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Postby Ausira » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:00 am

Haha! No. You still can't have an SGT-44 from a testing facility located in Berlin. Good try, though. Dude... just... read that over, and think logically. Americans at most would've brought you back to their base and fed you for a while, maybe (.05% Chance before finding about the Death Camps) sent you back to America, but... what you think would happen to you? Isn't real.

Try to justify it all you want, you can't have an STG-44. And so what if there were prototypes, you think some fucking SS Officer would carry around a gun still in testing and use it? No. He'd be like "Wait until it is fully ready to go on ze' Deustchland Market."

E: You can't be a rebel. This is Easy Company, not some movie. (Well, it was a movie) Its an Airborne Division, not I think at the time, they had called it O.S.S. (CIA of the 40's)
We aren't spies. We are soldiers in this RP.
Last edited by Ausira on Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
"In the Soviet Army, it takes more courage to retreat than advance." - Josef Stalin


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Weltmachtistan
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Postby Weltmachtistan » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:08 am

How exactly would you like me to jump in on the action? It seems you've already mobilized, so should I act as if I were along the whole way, or...

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Vortukia
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Postby Vortukia » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:12 am

Fine if you wont accept my Guy then why don't you make one for me?

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Weltmachtistan
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Postby Weltmachtistan » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:28 am

Vortukia wrote:Fine if you wont accept my Guy then why don't you make one for me?

Lol.

Are you serious?

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Vortukia
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Postby Vortukia » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:39 am

Yeah saying no to this that and this trying to make an interesting character.

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Ausira
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Postby Ausira » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:41 am

I'm not going to make you one when you can't even learn. And, I'm sorry, but... I'd suggest learning to Role-Play somewhere else, hun. This isn't the place for you to learn..
"In the Soviet Army, it takes more courage to retreat than advance." - Josef Stalin


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Vortukia
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Postby Vortukia » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:43 am

I know how to RP an ex German soldier stole some equipment and is going to link up with American troops whats so hard about that?

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Rynagria
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Postby Rynagria » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:25 am

Vortukia wrote:I know how to RP an ex German soldier stole some equipment and is going to link up with American troops whats so hard about that?

Because it's not realistic and likely, a Former Wermacht Infantry man wouldn't be drafted into the Aliied Military. They would most likely get imprisoned and interrogated for any useful information that they have......... If you don't get why nobody is wanting to accept your app, watch Band of Brothers, this isn't just creative WWII RP.

EDIT:
Another to I want to pick at is about the weapons, as everybody has pointed, you can't have the second assault rifle made in history. As even if it were a prototype, the Wermacht only sent them to the Eastern Front, so that means they were only used against the Red Army until the later 1944. Also, it would be a logistic nightmare for supply as it also used different ammunition than the rest of the Allied Army.

Another thing, please use the Application Format given, your App is very messy and hard to understand. Plus your Bio needs lengthening and not made of poorly constructed sentences, you also just can't have one-line backstory and hope for it to get accepted.
Last edited by Rynagria on Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Rynagria
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Postby Rynagria » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:31 am

Weltmachtistan wrote:Nation name: Weltmachtistan
Character name: Christopher "Grizzly" Griswald
Age: 23
Appearance: At 6'4, 245 pounds, he certainly lives up to his nickname. He generally wears a combat gest, along with crossed bandoliers. An oversized helmet upon his head, with quite a few tallies scratched upon it, needless to say a kill-count. His combat pants holding a few tears.
Rank: I may need some help here :p
Role: Machine-Gunner
Weaponry: Browning M2, 1911, a couple grenades, and a Bowie knife
Personality: Some may describe him with more... vulgar words. But, Grizzly us an absolute blessing upon the battlefield, all he needs us guys throwing handgrenades at him for the rest of his days.
Bio: Grizzly, earning his nickname through the gutteral grunting heard throughout the battlefield when he gets his hands on the enemy. And, quite frankly, because he looks like a bear. Grizzly was one of the few men put on this Earth, who were simply born for war. His love of lighting up enemy encampments with 50 caliber rounds is... Uncanny to say the least. Despite his rough edges, he is a powerful force on the battlefield, much to his enjoyment.
Anything else: Ready to collect me some Nazi skulls, sir!

Yes, he's loosely based off of "Animal Mother" from FMJ. :p

Welt, are you sure you're talking about the Browning M2? Because its not likely for an Airborne Paratrooper to jump out of a plane with a big ass .50 caliber HMG. (Not to mention its also about 39 lbs.) Maybe you were talking about the Browning M1919A4 or the Browning M1918 BAR.
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Ausira
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Postby Ausira » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:12 am

Rynagria wrote:
Weltmachtistan wrote:Nation name: Weltmachtistan
Character name: Christopher "Grizzly" Griswald
Age: 23
Appearance: At 6'4, 245 pounds, he certainly lives up to his nickname. He generally wears a combat gest, along with crossed bandoliers. An oversized helmet upon his head, with quite a few tallies scratched upon it, needless to say a kill-count. His combat pants holding a few tears.
Rank: I may need some help here :p
Role: Machine-Gunner
Weaponry: Browning M2, 1911, a couple grenades, and a Bowie knife
Personality: Some may describe him with more... vulgar words. But, Grizzly us an absolute blessing upon the battlefield, all he needs us guys throwing handgrenades at him for the rest of his days.
Bio: Grizzly, earning his nickname through the gutteral grunting heard throughout the battlefield when he gets his hands on the enemy. And, quite frankly, because he looks like a bear. Grizzly was one of the few men put on this Earth, who were simply born for war. His love of lighting up enemy encampments with 50 caliber rounds is... Uncanny to say the least. Despite his rough edges, he is a powerful force on the battlefield, much to his enjoyment.
Anything else: Ready to collect me some Nazi skulls, sir!

Yes, he's loosely based off of "Animal Mother" from FMJ. :p

Welt, are you sure you're talking about the Browning M2? Because its not likely for an Airborne Paratrooper to jump out of a plane with a big ass .50 caliber HMG. (Not to mention its also about 39 lbs.) Maybe you were talking about the Browning M1919A4 or the Browning M1918 BAR.


You are right, you won't jump out of the plane with it, but you can set it up and such. (Also, if you want to be an Enlisted [Private/PFC] You can't has a sidearm. What you got right now, grenades, knife, and your rifle) but, I'm sure he's fine for now. I mean, when you jump, you are given a M1A1 Carbine, Thompson, or a M1 Garand. When things get situated, you usually receive your standard equipment. On the jump, however, it really won't matter, since half of us will lose our gear since the pilot went to fast. (On the show, the pilot is attempting to speed through the Flak, but also has to worry about Easy's drop-zone. Half of those that jumped had lose their gear since how quickly the air hit through them)

Long-story short, it won't matter if you have a big gun, as you'll most likely lose it in the jump.

E: After that... when they get a base set up, most likely you'll get your gun.
Last edited by Ausira on Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
"In the Soviet Army, it takes more courage to retreat than advance." - Josef Stalin


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New Panti
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Postby New Panti » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:18 am

Vortukia wrote:I know how to RP an ex German soldier stole some equipment and is going to link up with American troops whats so hard about that?

Oh boy, this doesn't seem to be going well.

1. We are all Airborne troops from the US Army, not freedom fighters.

2. STG-44s were not used extensively in 1942, if they were used at all.

3. You didn't have a personality, and had a shity-ass backstory.

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Volvek
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Postby Volvek » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:30 am

Rynagria wrote:
Weltmachtistan wrote:Nation name: Weltmachtistan
Character name: Christopher "Grizzly" Griswald
Age: 23
Appearance: At 6'4, 245 pounds, he certainly lives up to his nickname. He generally wears a combat gest, along with crossed bandoliers. An oversized helmet upon his head, with quite a few tallies scratched upon it, needless to say a kill-count. His combat pants holding a few tears.
Rank: I may need some help here :p
Role: Machine-Gunner
Weaponry: Browning M2, 1911, a couple grenades, and a Bowie knife
Personality: Some may describe him with more... vulgar words. But, Grizzly us an absolute blessing upon the battlefield, all he needs us guys throwing handgrenades at him for the rest of his days.
Bio: Grizzly, earning his nickname through the gutteral grunting heard throughout the battlefield when he gets his hands on the enemy. And, quite frankly, because he looks like a bear. Grizzly was one of the few men put on this Earth, who were simply born for war. His love of lighting up enemy encampments with 50 caliber rounds is... Uncanny to say the least. Despite his rough edges, he is a powerful force on the battlefield, much to his enjoyment.
Anything else: Ready to collect me some Nazi skulls, sir!

Yes, he's loosely based off of "Animal Mother" from FMJ. :p

Welt, are you sure you're talking about the Browning M2? Because its not likely for an Airborne Paratrooper to jump out of a plane with a big ass .50 caliber HMG. (Not to mention its also about 39 lbs.) Maybe you were talking about the Browning M1919A4 or the Browning M1918 BAR.


I was wondering if someone was going to point this out, the Airborne only used Ma Deuce if they took it off of burned out tanks, i.e. Bastogne. The M2 weighs over 80 pounds, and with the tripod, over 100 pounds.
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Rynagria
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Postby Rynagria » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:32 am

Volvek wrote:
Rynagria wrote:Welt, are you sure you're talking about the Browning M2? Because its not likely for an Airborne Paratrooper to jump out of a plane with a big ass .50 caliber HMG. (Not to mention its also about 39 lbs.) Maybe you were talking about the Browning M1919A4 or the Browning M1918 BAR.


I was wondering if someone was going to point this out, the Airborne only used Ma Deuce if they took it off of burned out tanks, i.e. Bastogne. The M2 weighs over 80 pounds, and with the tripod, over 100 pounds.

Oops, I meant to say 38 kilograms not pounds.
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Volvek
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Postby Volvek » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:44 am

It's 39 Kilograms.
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Postby Communists for the people » Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:10 am

Volvek wrote:
Rynagria wrote:Welt, are you sure you're talking about the Browning M2? Because its not likely for an Airborne Paratrooper to jump out of a plane with a big ass .50 caliber HMG. (Not to mention its also about 39 lbs.) Maybe you were talking about the Browning M1919A4 or the Browning M1918 BAR.


I was wondering if someone was going to point this out, the Airborne only used Ma Deuce if they took it off of burned out tanks, i.e. Bastogne. The M2 weighs over 80 pounds, and with the tripod, over 100 pounds.


Not to mention the M1919 has a two man crew,and that's a .30 cal machine gun, but you have an M2 which infantry aren't exactly running around with.
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