Smoke and Steel: An alt-history RP (OOC/Now Closed)

[Tyben]

Trenches have been around for thousands of years, they aren't really a new tactic at this point. Sanitation is a relatively easy thing to deal with, limestone was used heavily by medieval armies to prevent disease from spreading, that is how most armies probably prevented the spread of disease during the world wars, tbh. And, trenches would actually decrease the amount of disease because majority of war-time disease is borne from injuries, as a fortification, it prevents that, furthermore the climate has a major impact on the spread of disease which is pretty warm for the most of our border.

Trenches are pretty durable, even when they are just massive ditches, because they are made of Earth which is a pretty durable material. However, trenches can't take constant bombardment from heavy artillery, such as howitzer, for extended periods of time, unless it made very durable via like concrete reinforcement.

I think the real question is, what's the depth of the trenches? Just waist-deep lines in the ground, or the complex networks of wood-reinforced walls and underground barracks that appeared during World War One?

They are more rudimentary trenches for the majority of the border area, with strategic locations having more heavily reinforced trenches.

[The Blazing Aura]

Tyben, I don't want to start an argument I just noticed something however. In your latest post you mention "The main army" but I haven't seen mention if it anywhere else. Do you mean that the force fighting the Qirim at the moment is merely a splinter force of the main army who are now marching on (and likely to come into contact with my troops soon) or that there's another force attacking from a completely different direction or what?

The Main Army refers to the troops under Grand Marshal Zhukov, currently, he is at the border region between Russia and Qirim Khaganate, formulating the next stage on the invasion plan. It is actually 10 different armies, not one big one.

Thanks for clearing that up.

@Tyben, I would like to point out however that diseases spread through trenches like wildfire, in such cramped conditions it's easy to catch something especially when animals like rats are also in the trenches spreading all their diseases as well. Added onto the fact that whilst the bottom of the trench may look like mud you don't know for sure what is exactly down there, and that coming in over your boots up your leg, onto your hands (and mud can splatter into your mouth) can mean that whilst stopping injuries and infections from those trenches are good they won't stop it completely, in fact they help spread more diseases than they stop infections.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

I don't know if it has been mentioned or not, but trench warfare wasn't really viable back then. There were no machine guns, no heavy ordinance and the musket, althoug more modern, still fired four to five times per minute. A well-timed charge could capture a trench without the thousands of dead people often asociated with trench warfare.there was no mistard gas, no barbed wire, no land mines, no aviatory reconnisance. It was still better, and probably more common for the contemporary commander, to engage in an open field, where you have room to manouvre. It's a pain in the neck to reload a muzzle-loader in the mud and cramped enviroment of a trench.

That brings me to another problem with RP'ing, not this RP, but every nation-RP in general. People don't make mistakes, where they should. Every leader and commander is a visionary, using knowledge not known to him, and morals not common to him. 'Trenches make cowards of men' was still a motto held by many commanders, and the individual soldier didn't count for a thing. It's logical that people try not to make mistakes. After all, there are awlays those who OP their country with modern tactics, knowledge of experimental tactics and insight in every ruse. This is a problem, because the people who wan't to make mistakes can't, fearing a total steamroll from the countries who create the best weapons and tactics from thin air. I'm not without sin in this, but it would be fun if people made mistakes more often.

[Glasgia]

I don't know if it has been mentioned or not, but trench warfare wasn't really viable back then. There were no machine guns, no heavy ordinance and the musket, althoug more modern, still fired four to five times per minute. A well-timed charge could capture a trench without the thousands of dead people often asociated with trench warfare.there was no mistard gas, no barbed wire, no land mines, no aviatory reconnisance. It was still better, and probably more common for the contemporary commander, to engage in an open field, where you have room to manouvre. It's a pain in the neck to reload a muzzle-loader in the mud and cramped enviroment of a trench.

That brings me to another problem with RP'ing, not this RP, but every nation-RP in general. People don't make mistakes, where they should. Every leader and commander is a visionary, using knowledge not known to him, and morals not common to him. 'Trenches make cowards of men' was still a motto held by many commanders, and the individual soldier didn't count for a thing. It's logical that people try not to make mistakes. After all, there are awlays those who OP their country with modern tactics, knowledge of experimental tactics and insight in every ruse. This is a problem, because the people who wan't to make mistakes can't, fearing a total steamroll from the countries who create the best weapons and tactics from thin air. I'm not without sin in this, but it would be fun if people made mistakes more often.

Trench warfare is still viable, it's just less effective. All the points you make don't make it impossible, they just make it a worse tactic. That's why my men are digging small trenches, mounds and foxholes, spread out over the Isthmus, rather than trench lines. As for muzzle loaders and reload rates, Dreyse rifles can fire up to twelve shots a minute so that's enough to inflict decent damage upon a charging enemy. Remember, trenches were used in the Crimean War to great effect and the Texan War of Independence to lesser effect.

As for RPing, I know I'm not entirely innocent and the foxholes I mentioned above is ane example of this, but I try and use traditional tactics, accpeting mistakes. That's why most of my men are still mounted, in accordance with their nomadic ancestors, and I used roving fire even when I could have exploited the advantage of my rifle's rate of fire on the ground. I knew it wasn't great, but it turned out even worse then I'd thought and that's when I became guilty of using more modern tactics.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

I don't know if it has been mentioned or not, but trench warfare wasn't really viable back then. There were no machine guns, no heavy ordinance and the musket, althoug more modern, still fired four to five times per minute. A well-timed charge could capture a trench without the thousands of dead people often asociated with trench warfare.there was no mistard gas, no barbed wire, no land mines, no aviatory reconnisance. It was still better, and probably more common for the contemporary commander, to engage in an open field, where you have room to manouvre. It's a pain in the neck to reload a muzzle-loader in the mud and cramped enviroment of a trench.

That brings me to another problem with RP'ing, not this RP, but every nation-RP in general. People don't make mistakes, where they should. Every leader and commander is a visionary, using knowledge not known to him, and morals not common to him. 'Trenches make cowards of men' was still a motto held by many commanders, and the individual soldier didn't count for a thing. It's logical that people try not to make mistakes. After all, there are awlays those who OP their country with modern tactics, knowledge of experimental tactics and insight in every ruse. This is a problem, because the people who wan't to make mistakes can't, fearing a total steamroll from the countries who create the best weapons and tactics from thin air. I'm not without sin in this, but it would be fun if people made mistakes more often.

Trench warfare is still viable, it's just less effective. All the points you make don't make it impossible, they just make it a worse tactic. That's why my men are digging small trenches, mounds and foxholes, spread out over the Isthmus, rather than trench lines. As for muzzle loaders and reload rates, Dreyse rifles can fire up to twelve shots a minute so that's enough to inflict decent damage upon a charging enemy. Remember, trenches were used in the Crimean War to great effect and the Texan War of Independence to lesser effect.

As for RPing, I know I'm not entirely innocent and the foxholes I mentioned above is ane example of this, but I try and use traditional tactics, accpeting mistakes. That's why most of my men are still mounted, in accordance with their nomadic ancestors, and I used roving fire even when I could have exploited the advantage of my rifle's rate of fire on the ground. I knew it wasn't great, but it turned out even worse then I'd thought and that's when I became guilty of using more modern tactics.

That's the whole problem with RP'ing. If you don't adapt the most modern OP tactics you can find, you're going to be beatrn. It's impossible not to adapt those tactics, for the sake of your nation.

About the wars you've mentioned, indeed, sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. That relies on a few things. First, the commanders abilities. Now, as we all have a firm grasp on history, we make good commanders on paper. And we have all the information we need to win a battle, so every ruse can be detected. We all want to win the battles, so it's impossible not to see a plan, or you will be beaten. So, in the RP, we are all Alexanders and Napoleons, and those who arn't, get Darwin'd out. So, you're left with peoplewho boast magnificent navies, seven billion man armies, a big concrete wall around their country, and laser guns. Those who don't, get killed off.

As for the trenches, they work when the front is small. When having inferior firepower, you need more people to man the same area to get the same firepower. In the Crimea, the front was small. But Russia is big and open, a bit like Texas. We must ask, why didn't the French deploy trenches in 1873 with great succes? Even when they had better guns than in 1850.

I don't blaim anyone, neither do I point fingers, it's just a heads up for realism.

[The Blazing Aura]

Glasgia I'd appreciate if you asked me first before taking control of my armies and characters.

[Glasgia]

Glasgia I'd appreciate if you asked me first before taking control of my armies and characters.

I didn't I stated what my men were doing Oh shit, we named our charcters the same thing. I'll change my guy's name, I usually either go for something Turkic or Islamic. I promise that was pure coincidence.

[Kaamnaayein]

^ That is legitimately funny, lol

@SI: Can you give me a better description of the firearms you were talking about? (ie. are they roughly the same quality as the flintlocks of the 1700s that my current soldiers would be equipped with, or are they a tech upgrade?)

@All: Can someone give me a quick synopsis of the Russian war and the parties involved?

[The Blazing Aura]

Glasgia I'd appreciate if you asked me first before taking control of my armies and characters.

I didn't I stated what my men were doing Oh shit, we named our charcters the same thing. I'll change my guy's name, I usually either go for something Turkic or Islamic. I promise that was pure coincidence.

wow. dw about it.

[Dwartzur]

@All: Can someone give me a quick synopsis of the Russian war and the parties involved?

For now, it is Russia vs. Qirim Khaganate, Ionian League, UHS and Sassanian Empire. It looks like the swede are supporting Qirim, though, and I believe Prussia will do the same, while Poland and France will probably aid Russia.
...Am I right?

Also, IC post incoming.

[Landenburg]

@All: Can someone give me a quick synopsis of the Russian war and the parties involved?

For now, it is Russia vs. Qirim Khaganate, Ionian League, UHS and Sassanian Empire. It looks like the swede are supporting Qirim, though, and I believe Prussia will do the same, while Poland and France will probably aid Russia.
...Am I right?

Also, IC post incoming.

I'm thinking that if I really want land, I can attack Russia in her back. That'd make things really difficult for them.

Decisions, decisions.

[Glasgia]

For now, it is Russia vs. Qirim Khaganate, Ionian League, UHS and Sassanian Empire. It looks like the swede are supporting Qirim, though, and I believe Prussia will do the same, while Poland and France will probably aid Russia.
...Am I right?

Also, IC post incoming.

I'm thinking that if I really want land, I can attack Russia in her back. That'd make things really difficult for them.

Decisions, decisions.

Go for it. Pretty much their entire army, is in Europe right now. It'd take months to get to Siberia, even with railways in some places.

[The Soodean Imperium]

@SI: Can you give me a better description of the firearms you were talking about? (ie. are they roughly the same quality as the flintlocks of the 1700s that my current soldiers would be equipped with, or are they a tech upgrade?)

They're the Neue Korps-Jägerbüchse: they have rifled barrels, percussion triggers, and are slightly smaller for faster aiming. Not as fast-reloading as the Dreyse needle-gun, but still a major improvement in accuracy and safety over the 1700s flintlock, and roughly equivalent to what most European powers are using at this time.

[Glasgia]

Socialists, that currently being Dvipantari and to some extent Ionia, would you be interested in a west socialism/east socialism split?

If you've followed my storyline a bit, the Khagan is a state capitalist and Marx was his tutor, now currently employed as an economic advisor. After the Russian war, I was thinking of a coup by the Khagan - either to wrestle his crumbling lands back under his control after defeat or as an over-confident Khagan crushing his opponents - in which he and Marx will institute a state socialist single-party democracy. That would be Ashkun-Marxism or "West Socialism", as opposed to Dvipantaran Socialism which would be "East Socialism". Thoughts?

[The Soodean Imperium]

Socialists, that currently being Dvipantari and to some extent Ionia, would you be interested in a west socialism/east socialism split?

If you've followed my storyline a bit, the Khagan is a state capitalist and Marx was his tutor, now currently employed as an economic advisor. After the Russian war, I was thinking of a coup by the Khagan - either to wrestle his crumbling lands back under his control after defeat or as an over-confident Khagan crushing his opponents - in which he and Marx will institute a state socialist single-party democracy. That would be Ashkun-Marxism or "West Socialism", as opposed to Dvipantaran Socialism which would be "East Socialism". Thoughts?

It would probably start with a unified movement, with a Socialist International and so on, but gradually grow apart (maybe a schism over the next timeskip). Sort of like in real life, with Trotsky/Stalin and Khrushchev/Mao.

For the record, Prussia will probably make a gradual transition to Socialism, adopting a Nordic-style model over the next timeskip and being a fully Socialist regime by the mid-to-late 20th century.

[Dwartzur]

Socialists, that currently being Dvipantari and to some extent Ionia, would you be interested in a west socialism/east socialism split?

If you've followed my storyline a bit, the Khagan is a state capitalist and Marx was his tutor, now currently employed as an economic advisor. After the Russian war, I was thinking of a coup by the Khagan - either to wrestle his crumbling lands back under his control after defeat or as an over-confident Khagan crushing his opponents - in which he and Marx will institute a state socialist single-party democracy. That would be Ashkun-Marxism or "West Socialism", as opposed to Dvipantaran Socialism which would be "East Socialism". Thoughts?

I guess each leftist nation will have a slightly different ideology, after all.

In INA, what is going to be formed is a confederacy led by a Council of Patriarchs, who are elected by popular vote. Each of them represents one of INA's provinces. I think that it may eventually turn into an oligarchy instead, y'know.

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

As for the Kingdom, the republican movement will most likely split into Occitan Republicans and Socialist Republicans, with the Socialist being more hardcore revolutionaries and the Occitan Republicans being more moderate. This will come to a revolt, a revolution, like the Jacobites in France. Slaughter, bloodshed and war will follow, and the foreigners decide what will win. And control over Moldova, with her lush supplied of weapons, will be important, too.

[Blassland]

I do not see the Socialist movement getting too far off of the ground, I am more interested in slowly building a stable democracy

[Halleon]

France is gonna be ruled by one man or woman with absolute power for a very long time, even that man or woman isn't a Monarchy since I don't intend on going Full Scale Democracy even then the French Monarchy should survive at least till the time skip, just gonna reform when its needed and use the Imperial Senate as a puppet pretty much for the Monarchy.

[Fortunagen]

So, what have I missed?

[Neros]

Sweden has already become a limited, albeit Constitutional, Monarchy. Our leader still holds a lot of theoretical power, but it will erode over time through the Imperial Riksdag. Over the next time skip the role of the Emperor in internal politics will diminish and he will start serving a ceremonial, and diplomatic, role. We will also begin to liberalize and such, yet will only be influenced by the Socialist movement, not governed by it.

I will begin to describe my military arsenal soon. Generally, it will start with Swedish indigenous rifles which look and operate akin to M1819 Hall rifles, which feature a breech loading mechanism. However, the main military rifle will be an upgraded version (1843) which features rifling, improved breech loading systems, increased durability, and reduces production costs. Due to their advanced nature (though perhaps secondary to Dreyse rifles), low production costs, and ease of use, they are sold for export to other countries. General stats include putting 8-10 rounds down range within a minute, an effective range of 800–1500 yards (which if I am not mistaken outclasses many contemporary rifles), .525 caliber (paper cartridge), and a length ranging between 48 to 60 inches.

EDIT: Nomination for the most controversial post in the RP?!

[The Blazing Aura]

Neros, if my men boarded your ship it would be a small force of at leas a dozen trained soldiers, they'd know exactly about explosives and stuff. However they probably wouldn't search the ship at all.

I would most definitely like to have given permission before you decide to blow up part of my country. Especially to the extent that you've done so.
EDIT: Added to the fact that you've made the damage report for me.
(I'm trying my best to be calm about this but really I'm extremely pissed off, please Neros retcon it and let us reach an agreement on this BEFORE you do anything like this again. Else I will simply ignore your posts and carry on as if nothing has happened.

Actually can i make a point out to everyone please. If you're going to use anyone/anything from the United Holy Sultanate I would like a TG about it first so that we can sort out exactly what they're doing so another situation like this doesn't occur again.

[Dwartzur]

Neros, if my men boarded your ship it would be a small force of at leas a dozen trained soldiers, they'd know exactly about explosives and stuff. However they probably wouldn't search the ship at all.

I would most definitely like to have given permission before you decide to blow up part of my country. Especially to the extent that you've done so.
EDIT: Added to the fact that you've made the damage report for me.
(I'm trying my best to be calm about this but really I'm extremely pissed off, please Neros retcon it and let us reach an agreement on this BEFORE you do anything like this again. Else I will simply ignore your posts and carry on as if nothing has happened.

Actually can i make a point out to everyone please. If you're going to use anyone/anything from the United Holy Sultanate I would like a TG about it first so that we can sort out exactly what they're doing so another situation like this doesn't occur again.

Thaaaaaaat's why when my characters interact with characters from another nation I always wait for them to post their reaction.

[Neros]

Neros, if my men boarded your ship it would be a small force of at leas a dozen trained soldiers, they'd know exactly about explosives and stuff. However they probably wouldn't search the ship at all.

I would most definitely like to have given permission before you decide to blow up part of my country. Especially to the extent that you've done so.
EDIT: Added to the fact that you've made the damage report for me.
(I'm trying my best to be calm about this but really I'm extremely pissed off, please Neros retcon it and let us reach an agreement on this BEFORE you do anything like this again. Else I will simply ignore your posts and carry on as if nothing has happened.

Actually can i make a point out to everyone please. If you're going to use anyone/anything from the United Holy Sultanate I would like a TG about it first so that we can sort out exactly what they're doing so another situation like this doesn't occur again.

This really makes everyone pissed at Russia. It allows everyone to go after him because it severs the supply train of Europe-Asia-Africa. As for the damage report, if I didn't, you'd brush it off as a simple little firecracker. It's a serious issue.

So, we have to get your permission to roleplay with the UHS? How stingy. Are we going to have to TG you on how to respond to your posts too, just so everything can be right in the world - er, I mean your Most Holy Nation? It would serve as a proper mobilization of war against Russia for your nation and anyone (which is most of the players) who rely on or have some trade going through Suez.

I'd much rather you roleplay through it. Something about Realism that Great Confederacy Of Commonwealth States was talking about. Suez would be a legitimate area of attack by Russia, and retconning it just because you don't like it seems to go totally against that concept.

[Kershya]

Socialists, that currently being Dvipantari and to some extent Ionia, would you be interested in a west socialism/east socialism split?

If you've followed my storyline a bit, the Khagan is a state capitalist and Marx was his tutor, now currently employed as an economic advisor. After the Russian war, I was thinking of a coup by the Khagan - either to wrestle his crumbling lands back under his control after defeat or as an over-confident Khagan crushing his opponents - in which he and Marx will institute a state socialist single-party democracy. That would be Ashkun-Marxism or "West Socialism", as opposed to Dvipantaran Socialism which would be "East Socialism". Thoughts?

Dvipantara would see itself as a Reformation Socialist state while the resulting Ionian Socialist America would come out as Revolutionary Socialist state. So there will be a conflict of interest between the two sides from the start, and like the Great Schism, it will develop cracks until it divides into two, between the peaceful reformists and the violent revolutionaries.