Smoke and Steel: An alt-history RP (OOC/Now Closed)

[Neros]

Imperial Armed Forces of Sweden

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Army

Navy

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Here

[The Blazing Aura]

Yeah, but if you're cutting a path straight to his capital then he'll be defending his capital pretty heavily. You''re also begging to be cut off and surrounded if you just head straight for the capital, I'd like to see you trying to fight with no supplies.

It's called a cavalry blind.

I don't think it is, seeing as searching that on the internet gives you zero results to do with tactics.

[Tyben]

It's called a cavalry blind.

I don't think it is, seeing as searching that on the internet gives you zero results to do with tactics.

Go read a book about Napoleonic tactics and go respond to the rest of that post.

[The Blazing Aura]

I don't think it is, seeing as searching that on the internet gives you zero results to do with tactics.

Go read a book about Napoleonic tactics and go respond to the rest of that post.

I can't, don't have one.

Looked it up on the wiki and there's still no mention of it.

Besides if you were using Cavalry they're shock troops, not effective on a long campaign push like you're trying to do.

[Tyben]

Go read a book about Napoleonic tactics and go respond to the rest of that post.

I can't, don't have one.

Looked it up on the wiki and there's still no mention of it.

Besides if you were using Cavalry they're shock troops, not effective on a long campaign push like you're trying to do.

... Obviously you know nothing about the campaigning of Napoleon, because if you did you would know what a cavalry blind was. It is commonly referred to as a cavalry screen, if that helps you any.

[The Blazing Aura]

I can't, don't have one.

Looked it up on the wiki and there's still no mention of it.

Besides if you were using Cavalry they're shock troops, not effective on a long campaign push like you're trying to do.

... Obviously you know nothing about the campaigning of Napoleon, because if you did you would know what a cavalry blind was. It is commonly referred to as a cavalry screen, if that helps you any.

Oh Cavalry Screen, just call it by that and I know that you mean.

wow that rhymed. Anyway, you can't use your cavalry to scour the entire Khagante looking for enemy armies, plus using that you often don't identify civilians who'd fight against you or any resistance movements like that. Like I said (and the point you're ignoring) You're pushing straight for the capital, what's to stop an army coming from the flank or behind you and destroying your supply routes, I mean if you're so familiar with Napoleon, you must know one of his greatest quotes -

An army marches on its stomach

And it can't march or fight if it doesn't have supplies that if you use the tactic you are using can be quite easily cut off.

[Tyben]

... Obviously you know nothing about the campaigning of Napoleon, because if you did you would know what a cavalry blind was. It is commonly referred to as a cavalry screen, if that helps you any.

Oh Cavalry Screen, just call it by that and I know that you mean.

wow that rhymed. Anyway, you can't use your cavalry to scour the entire Khagante looking for enemy armies, plus using that you often don't identify civilians who'd fight against you or any resistance movements like that. Like I said (and the point you're ignoring) You're pushing straight for the capital, what's to stop an army coming from the flank or behind you and destroying your supply routes, I mean if you're so familiar with Napoleon, you must know one of his greatest quotes -

An army marches on its stomach

And it can't march or fight if it doesn't have supplies that if you use the tactic you are using can be quite easily cut off.

The act of his civilians fighting against me is unlikely, his citizens are by majority of Russian heritage and I don't think they would like being led by people who aren't Russian. As I have said, if they fall on my flank or my rear then they put themselves in a bad position because I can simply turn my force to confront it because my formation of a modified phalanx is very mobile, allowing me increased speed and mobility, and then use the strategy of central position and flank the force and fall on its rear, cutting it off from retreat.

Obviously, you didn't realize one key thing about Napoleon though. His armies got majority of their food supplies that they didn't carry with them from foraging. That is why my armies are only 50,000 men, it allows the army to forage and maintain increased mobility.

EDIT: I wish Khaganate would've posted before he got off, I'm really antsy for a battle.

[The Blazing Aura]

Oh Cavalry Screen, just call it by that and I know that you mean.

wow that rhymed. Anyway, you can't use your cavalry to scour the entire Khagante looking for enemy armies, plus using that you often don't identify civilians who'd fight against you or any resistance movements like that. Like I said (and the point you're ignoring) You're pushing straight for the capital, what's to stop an army coming from the flank or behind you and destroying your supply routes, I mean if you're so familiar with Napoleon, you must know one of his greatest quotes -

And it can't march or fight if it doesn't have supplies that if you use the tactic you are using can be quite easily cut off.

The act of his civilians fighting against me is unlikely, his citizens are by majority of Russian heritage and I don't think they would like being led by people who aren't Russian. As I have said, if they fall on my flank or my rear then they put themselves in a bad position because I can simply turn my force to confront it because my formation of a modified phalanx is very mobile, allowing me increased speed and mobility, and then use the strategy of central position and flank the force and fall on its rear, cutting it off from retreat.

Obviously, you didn't realize one key thing about Napoleon though. His armies got majority of their food supplies that they didn't carry with them from foraging. That is why my armies are only 50,000 men, it allows the army to forage and maintain increased mobility.

EDIT: I wish Khaganate would've posted before he got off, I'm really antsy for a battle.

You can't dismiss his civilians like that, the majority of them aren't Russian, they're Qirim, OK maybe in the land taken during the last war but in the Qirim homeland you can't use that excuse.

Have you ever heard of a tactic called Hammer and Anvil? it's a tactic I use a lot in strategy games on the defensive where one side hit's you, you turn to fight them and they hold whilst another side hits you, you turn to fight them and your rear/flank is hit again. the Khagante is a largely cavalry force and they could use this tactic with ease to keep wearing you down by continually attacking the rear of your force as you turn to confront the last attack, rinse and repeat until no Russians are left.

Yeah, OK so you get food like that, now let's see how well you do with trying to forage for gunpowder or bullets or cannon shot or horses.

[Tyben]

The act of his civilians fighting against me is unlikely, his citizens are by majority of Russian heritage and I don't think they would like being led by people who aren't Russian. As I have said, if they fall on my flank or my rear then they put themselves in a bad position because I can simply turn my force to confront it because my formation of a modified phalanx is very mobile, allowing me increased speed and mobility, and then use the strategy of central position and flank the force and fall on its rear, cutting it off from retreat.

Obviously, you didn't realize one key thing about Napoleon though. His armies got majority of their food supplies that they didn't carry with them from foraging. That is why my armies are only 50,000 men, it allows the army to forage and maintain increased mobility.

EDIT: I wish Khaganate would've posted before he got off, I'm really antsy for a battle.

You can't dismiss his civilians like that, the majority of them aren't Russian, they're Qirim, OK maybe in the land taken during the last war but in the Qirim homeland you can't use that excuse.

Have you ever heard of a tactic called Hammer and Anvil? it's a tactic I use a lot in strategy games on the defensive where one side hit's you, you turn to fight them and they hold whilst another side hits you, you turn to fight them and your rear/flank is hit again. the Khagante is a largely cavalry force and they could use this tactic with ease to keep wearing you down by continually attacking the rear of your force as you turn to confront the last attack, rinse and repeat until no Russians are left.

Yeah, OK so you get food like that, now let's see how well you do with trying to forage for gunpowder or bullets or cannon shot or horses.

I only need one engagement to win. Beside that fact, I can always just form a cavalry square and obliterate his cavalry forces. In actual combat your "hammer and anvil" tactics wouldn't work, due to the way forces are actually spaced.

And yes, I can dismiss his citizens like that because the majority ARE Russian. You can look up the statistics, only about 12% of them are actual Crimeans, over 50% of them are Russians, and the rest is a mix.

[The Blazing Aura]

You can't dismiss his civilians like that, the majority of them aren't Russian, they're Qirim, OK maybe in the land taken during the last war but in the Qirim homeland you can't use that excuse.

Have you ever heard of a tactic called Hammer and Anvil? it's a tactic I use a lot in strategy games on the defensive where one side hit's you, you turn to fight them and they hold whilst another side hits you, you turn to fight them and your rear/flank is hit again. the Khagante is a largely cavalry force and they could use this tactic with ease to keep wearing you down by continually attacking the rear of your force as you turn to confront the last attack, rinse and repeat until no Russians are left.

Yeah, OK so you get food like that, now let's see how well you do with trying to forage for gunpowder or bullets or cannon shot or horses.

I only need one engagement to win. Beside that fact, I can always just form a cavalry square and obliterate his cavalry forces. In actual combat your "hammer and anvil" tactics wouldn't work, due to the way forces are actually spaced.

And yes, I can dismiss his citizens like that because the majority ARE Russian. You can look up the statistics, only about 12% of them are actual Crimeans, over 50% of them are Russians, and the rest is a mix.

You don't need only one engagement to win, that's saying that you can take out all of his army in one strike (which is nigh-on impossible especially if he doesn't commit his entire army). Calvary don't do well in a square formation, especially due to the fact it makes them perfect targets for artillery to easily destroy. If you meant an Infantry square, well yes it'd work against Cavalry but not against artillery, once again you might as well paint targets on the front of each mans uniform.
The Hammer and Anvil normally only works two ways rather than the multiple ones I said in the last post. Basically split your army in two, and sandwich the enemy from both sides, works even better if your Anvil has already engaged the enemy by the time the Hammer comes in (Look at the Battle of Cannae for a primitive version of it).
You still can't they've been living as Qirim for however many years, it's their land so their just as likely to try and defend it no matter what they're original race.

[Tyben]

I only need one engagement to win. Beside that fact, I can always just form a cavalry square and obliterate his cavalry forces. In actual combat your "hammer and anvil" tactics wouldn't work, due to the way forces are actually spaced.

And yes, I can dismiss his citizens like that because the majority ARE Russian. You can look up the statistics, only about 12% of them are actual Crimeans, over 50% of them are Russians, and the rest is a mix.

You don't need only one engagement to win, that's saying that you can take out all of his army in one strike (which is nigh-on impossible especially if he doesn't commit his entire army). Calvary don't do well in a square formation, especially due to the fact it makes them perfect targets for artillery to easily destroy. If you meant an Infantry square, well yes it'd work against Cavalry but not against artillery, once again you might as well paint targets on the front of each mans uniform.
The Hammer and Anvil normally only works two ways rather than the multiple ones I said in the last post. Basically split your army in two, and sandwich the enemy from both sides, works even better if your Anvil has already engaged the enemy by the time the Hammer comes in (Look at the Battle of Cannae for a primitive version of it).
You still can't they've been living as Qirim for however many years, it's their land so their just as likely to try and defend it no matter what they're original race.

Of course I meant an infantry square and your observation about that painting a target on them is completely invalid. Cannons are low accuracy, plus if he uses cannons he will scare his own cavalry forces and would more likely hit them then my actual troops. Plus the fact that I will have artillery inside of my infantry squares, allowing me to inflict heavy damage on the horses, causing them to be routed and then focus on using my faster moving infantry to take on and obliterate his artillery which won't be very effective against the modified phalanx formation.

And the way Napoleonic like armies are set up, you can't just "hammer and anvil" it. They are split up into 4 corps about a mile apart so that they can be more effective, if they came into contact with one force, the other corps would fall on the first enemy force, destroying it, then turning their attention to the other one. Besides the fact that a Napoleonic army consists of 4 units allows it to prevent a force from retreating and I am pretty sure he will have to use the brunt of his army to engage mine if he doesn't want a total defeat.

And no they aren't @the assessment that the Russians in his land will defend it against my army. Look at the Han's problem with the Manchu dynasties in China, even though they had lived in the same land for hundreds of years, the Hans never stopped hating the Manchus because they weren't the same race as the majority(the Hans).

[Neros]

I only need one engagement to win. Beside that fact, I can always just form a cavalry square and obliterate his cavalry forces. In actual combat your "hammer and anvil" tactics wouldn't work, due to the way forces are actually spaced.

And yes, I can dismiss his citizens like that because the majority ARE Russian. You can look up the statistics, only about 12% of them are actual Crimeans, over 50% of them are Russians, and the rest is a mix.

You don't need only one engagement to win, that's saying that you can take out all of his army in one strike (which is nigh-on impossible especially if he doesn't commit his entire army). Calvary don't do well in a square formation, especially due to the fact it makes them perfect targets for artillery to easily destroy. If you meant an Infantry square, well yes it'd work against Cavalry but not against artillery, once again you might as well paint targets on the front of each mans uniform.
The Hammer and Anvil normally only works two ways rather than the multiple ones I said in the last post. Basically split your army in two, and sandwich the enemy from both sides, works even better if your Anvil has already engaged the enemy by the time the Hammer comes in (Look at the Battle of Cannae for a primitive version of it).
You still can't they've been living as Qirim for however many years, it's their land so their just as likely to try and defend it no matter what they're original race.

It all depends on the citizen issue. They could welcome the Russians as liberators, or not really care. Some people in this world, to be honest, do not care which flag they live under as long as they can grow some food or find some income. Only die-hard Qirim supporters will take up arms, and only then when Russia starts entering the original Qirim land's prior to the First War.

As for the supply issue, Russia is incredibly vast (and thus has ample resources to fight close-quarters wars) while the Crimea is small and contained - he will have to rely on imported goods to properly fight a Russian invasion. Russia will also be fighting against the Persians (Sassy!), and to be honest, can take them on directly alongside the rest of the Middle Eastern Alliance. Russia's Army has had to grown and better itself as the entire Russian Military would be focused solely on the Army as the Navy is gone due to the absence of any Black Sea Ports, so their militarism will play a huge factor against the relatively weaker units of the Middle East.

Tactically, it does not matter. Anything can work if used properly and in the right approach, so the argument is negligent. It may boil down to human waves, and if that happens, Russia has the absolute edge, even with magnificent defenses. There's a reason most normal people don't want to fight a war with Russia.

[The Blazing Aura]

@Tyben,1) if someone mirros your tactics however every argument you just had vanishes, especially as each of your corps would be under attack from 2 enemy corps on two sides.
2) I'm slightly worried about your artillery, unless your using Howitzers and Mortars and the like as your only form of artillery you cant have the artillery in the middle of an infantry square else it would hit the infantry in front of it, doing the enemies job for it.
3) Artillery was getting quite accurate then, not brilliant accuracy but against several square of infantry it could kill off quite a few each barrage.
4) your light infantry would charge towards the artillery and the infantry most likely positioned behind it? if you want a infantry version of the Light Brigade go ahead, I don't think anyone would reach the enemy guns.
5) Well you can't dismiss the civilian altogether, besides it's Glasgia who decides how they'll act not you, anything else would be godmodding.

@Neros
1) see my point above
2) you misunderstand me, I'm not saying that Russia doesn't have the supplies (they undoubtedly do) I'm saying that if the Supply Train was cut off (between Russia and the attacking forces) then the Russian Armies wouldn't get any supplies, it's a tactic as old as war itself, plus the further the Russian armies go into Qirim territory the easier it would be to cut the supply train off.
3) You're right anything can be used as an offensive or defensive advantage.
4) If this resorts to number-spamming I won't be happy, but then as with the Middle Eastern nations Russia has to get their armies to the front line first, and as the front line pushes further and further into Qirim Territory that's easier for us and harder for him.

[Tyben]

@Tyben,1) if someone mirros your tactics however every argument you just had vanishes, especially as each of your corps would be under attack from 2 enemy corps on two sides.
2) I'm slightly worried about your artillery, unless your using Howitzers and Mortars and the like as your only form of artillery you cant have the artillery in the middle of an infantry square else it would hit the infantry in front of it, doing the enemies job for it.
3) Artillery was getting quite accurate then, not brilliant accuracy but against several square of infantry it could kill off quite a few each barrage.
4) your light infantry would charge towards the artillery and the infantry most likely positioned behind it? if you want a infantry version of the Light Brigade go ahead, I don't think anyone would reach the enemy guns.
5) Well you can't dismiss the civilian altogether, besides it's Glasgia who decides how they'll act not you, anything else would be godmodding.

@Neros
1) see my point above
2) you misunderstand me, I'm not saying that Russia doesn't have the supplies (they undoubtedly do) I'm saying that if the Supply Train was cut off (between Russia and the attacking forces) then the Russian Armies wouldn't get any supplies, it's a tactic as old as war itself, plus the further the Russian armies go into Qirim territory the easier it would be to cut the supply train off.
3) You're right anything can be used as an offensive or defensive advantage.
4) If this resorts to number-spamming I won't be happy, but then as with the Middle Eastern nations Russia has to get their armies to the front line first, and as the front line pushes further and further into Qirim Territory that's easier for us and harder for him.

View slide 4:
Napoleon Slide Show

[The Blazing Aura]

@Tyben,1) if someone mirros your tactics however every argument you just had vanishes, especially as each of your corps would be under attack from 2 enemy corps on two sides.
2) I'm slightly worried about your artillery, unless your using Howitzers and Mortars and the like as your only form of artillery you cant have the artillery in the middle of an infantry square else it would hit the infantry in front of it, doing the enemies job for it.
3) Artillery was getting quite accurate then, not brilliant accuracy but against several square of infantry it could kill off quite a few each barrage.
4) your light infantry would charge towards the artillery and the infantry most likely positioned behind it? if you want a infantry version of the Light Brigade go ahead, I don't think anyone would reach the enemy guns.
5) Well you can't dismiss the civilian altogether, besides it's Glasgia who decides how they'll act not you, anything else would be godmodding.

@Neros
1) see my point above
2) you misunderstand me, I'm not saying that Russia doesn't have the supplies (they undoubtedly do) I'm saying that if the Supply Train was cut off (between Russia and the attacking forces) then the Russian Armies wouldn't get any supplies, it's a tactic as old as war itself, plus the further the Russian armies go into Qirim territory the easier it would be to cut the supply train off.
3) You're right anything can be used as an offensive or defensive advantage.
4) If this resorts to number-spamming I won't be happy, but then as with the Middle Eastern nations Russia has to get their armies to the front line first, and as the front line pushes further and further into Qirim Territory that's easier for us and harder for him.

View slide 4:
Napoleon Slide Show

1) you still haven't answered the question
2) Supported by Artillery, this doesn't mean the Artillery is in the middle of the square it means it's behind it at a point where it can fire over the troops.
3) The Slide-show supports this point actually
4) Not answered
5) Not answered (doesn't really need to be though)

Extra points: Remember you're not Napoleon, you don't have access to all the things Napoleon had access to, for example you don't have his 'pygmy cavalry' in fact you don't have any Polish forces to use. You also need to remember that this is set 35 years after Napoleon died (IRL) technology has changed and Napoleons tactics were whilst good for their time aren't as much use now, unless you're willing to have a military that's based on units and technology that's 35 years old vs modern up to date forces from everywhere else.

[Tyben]

View slide 4:
Napoleon Slide Show

1) you still haven't answered the question
2) Supported by Artillery, this doesn't mean the Artillery is in the middle of the square it means it's behind it at a point where it can fire over the troops.
3) The Slide-show supports this point actually
4) Not answered
5) Not answered (doesn't really need to be though)

Extra points: Remember you're not Napoleon, you don't have access to all the things Napoleon had access to, for example you don't have his 'pygmy cavalry' in fact you don't have any Polish forces to use. You also need to remember that this is set 35 years after Napoleon died (IRL) technology has changed and Napoleons tactics were whilst good for their time aren't as much use now, unless you're willing to have a military that's based on units and technology that's 35 years old vs modern up to date forces from everywhere else.

The fact is this debate has long since devolved into an argument where you simply ignore our facts and keep just shoving your "proof" in my face. So, I decided to end this argument with that, beyond that fact most of your points are completely invalid.

Napoleon tactics would still be effective at this point, in 35 years tactics and strategy literally changed zero. The armies in the American Civil War fought in line formation with rifles using minie balls and rifling guns, that is the reason there was such a huge death toll. Now, my innovations, I.E. The modified Phalanx, increased survivability and mobility while using semi-line tactics, meaning the soldier can move out of the way of the projectile and cannons don't deal as much damage to the formation.

As far as his use of Polish units, I know I do not have access to some of them, but that does not stop me from being effective with his strategies overall. He used his strategies long before he had access to Polish troops and even before he became a full on general, when he led artillery.

1.) Now, if you want me to answer this so badly, I will. If you put two corps on either side of one of my corps, it will come up primarily to skill, leadership competency, and the make up of the force. But if that ever happened to ALL of my corps, or even one, then there has to be supreme incompetency within my military and it also puts the corps attacking my corps in a bad position because if they regroup into a single formation it would squash the enemy corps in the middle of their own and allow them to turn their attention outwards.

2) Supported by Artillery, this doesn't mean the Artillery is in the middle of the square it means it's behind it at a point where it can fire over the troops.

Haha, no. Artillery was used in flat ground combat by Napoleon, that is why he allowed his enemies to take higher ground. When artillery is in a square formation, and believe me it is more common than you think, it attacks enemies that are at a distance while protecting those operating the cannon from up close attacks. So your point is invalid.

3) The Slide-show supports this point actually

No it doesn't, the slide-show clearly states that artillery does heavy damage at close range, supporting the fact that it is a low accuracy weapon.

4) your light infantry would charge towards the artillery and the infantry most likely positioned behind it? if you want a infantry version of the Light Brigade go ahead, I don't think anyone would reach the enemy guns.

Artillery has to reload and it tends to be fired in volleys, with a rather slow reload time. Combine that with the fact that it is inaccurate and if that is all that is left the morale of the troops manning it will be low, the cannon operators will flee at the sight of the approaching force, or even if they didn't, they wouldn't be able to wipe out large amounts of my troops when they have space to move, preventing the carnage caused by tightly packed formations.

The Light Brigade was about cavalry forces charging up hill at entrenched cannons which had heavy infantry support, because a miscommunication in their chain of command (probably from officer incompetence) ordered them to go to the wrong artillery battery.

5) Well you can't dismiss the civilian altogether, besides it's Glasgia who decides how they'll act not you, anything else would be godmodding.

I understand that, however the person who is roleplaying tends to put the effects in their own favor, I.E. "my morale is improving" and not "we are suffering heavy casualties from the incompetence of our officers." Just because he roleplays the response doesn't mean it should be in his favor.

2) you misunderstand me, I'm not saying that Russia doesn't have the supplies (they undoubtedly do) I'm saying that if the Supply Train was cut off (between Russia and the attacking forces) then the Russian Armies wouldn't get any supplies, it's a tactic as old as war itself, plus the further the Russian armies go into Qirim territory the easier it would be to cut the supply train off.

Even if my supply train was cut off, I could forage so it isn't a big deal.

4) If this resorts to number-spamming I won't be happy, but then as with the Middle Eastern nations Russia has to get their armies to the front line first, and as the front line pushes further and further into Qirim Territory that's easier for us and harder for him.

Doesn't matter, once I have finished my conquests in the Qirim, I will set up a permanent supply line and pro-Russian viceroyalty in the area from among those raised in Qirim. This will give me a forwarding point for supplies and troops.

[Fortunagen]

It all depends on the citizen issue. They could welcome the Russians as liberators, or not really care. Some people in this world, to be honest, do not care which flag they live under as long as they can grow some food or find some income.

Let me stop you right there. I hate to interject like this, but I was just reading over the recent events when I saw you stating this. Now, allow me to clarify: Regardless of RL statistics or previous views of the RP, nobody except for Aura himself controls the actions and/or opinion of his citizens, regardless of their cultural heritage. That being said, if Aura is a good RPer, then he will take your points into consideration and use them during the War. But if you don't like it, you may either try to convince him, and if he still says no you can either simply deal with it and move on, using his opinion as canon, or you can decide that you don't like his style of RPing, so you simply chose not to attack him. Sorry if it sounds harsh, but that is why in RPs your best OOC friend should be your worst IC enemy.

[Halleon]

It all depends on the citizen issue. They could welcome the Russians as liberators, or not really care. Some people in this world, to be honest, do not care which flag they live under as long as they can grow some food or find some income.

Let me stop you right there. I hate to interject like this, but I was just reading over the recent events when I saw you stating this. Now, allow me to clarify: Regardless of RL statistics or previous views of the RP, nobody except for Aura himself controls the actions and/or opinion of his citizens, regardless of their cultural heritage. That being said, if Aura is a good RPer, then he will take your points into consideration and use them during the War. But if you don't like it, you may either try to convince him, and if he still says no you can either simply deal with it and move on, using his opinion as canon, or you can decide that you don't like his style of RPing, so you simply chose not to attack him. Sorry if it sounds harsh, but that is why in RPs your best OOC friend should be your worst IC enemy.

I'm neutral in this debate but I think both Tyben and Neros are trying to say that not every citizen whose homeland is under invasion is going to pick up arms and fight against the invaders. Most people are not gonna give up their life's if they are just regular citizens unless they are provoked or very loyal to their country and/or that individual has nothing to loose. I don't think anyone here is trying to control or god mod with someone else's population but the point at least in my opinion is that Neros is just stating that its not realistic for every man, woman, and child to become a warrior and pick up arms to fight against Russia. Also I'm not saying anyone said every man, woman, and child will fight against Russia I'm just making a point.

[Fortunagen]

I'm neutral in this debate but I think both Tyben and Neros are trying to say that not every citizen whose homeland is under invasion is going to pick up arms and fight against the invaders. Most people are not gonna give up their life's if they are just regular citizens unless they are provoked or very loyal to their country and/or that individual has nothing to loose. I don't think anyone here is trying to control or god mod with someone else's population but the point at least in my opinion is that Neros is just stating that its not realistic for every man, woman, and child to become a warrior and pick up arms to fight against Russia. Also I'm not saying anyone said every man, woman, and child will fight against Russia I'm just making a point.

I agree, but it is of my opinion that if you look over the hill, and an Army is marching towards your house. You look the other way and it seems another army is coming to defend your house, odds are you are going to join the fight on the side of the defenders because they are, in fact, defending your home.

[Halleon]

I'm neutral in this debate but I think both Tyben and Neros are trying to say that not every citizen whose homeland is under invasion is going to pick up arms and fight against the invaders. Most people are not gonna give up their life's if they are just regular citizens unless they are provoked or very loyal to their country and/or that individual has nothing to loose. I don't think anyone here is trying to control or god mod with someone else's population but the point at least in my opinion is that Neros is just stating that its not realistic for every man, woman, and child to become a warrior and pick up arms to fight against Russia. Also I'm not saying anyone said every man, woman, and child will fight against Russia I'm just making a point.

I agree, but it is of my opinion that if you look over the hill, and an Army is marching towards your house. You look the other way and it seems another army is coming to defend your house, odds are you are going to join the fight on the side of the defenders because they are, in fact, defending your home.

Realistically not everyone would fight because not everyone is patriotic or willing to sacrifice their life for their country. In my opinion odds are most people flee the war zone or attempt to defend their property. A regular farmer with a pitchfork or with a old gun isn't going to do much against any Armed and Trained Soldier. Personally I would only relay on my citizens to fight if all hope was lost and If I was desperate enough just to use my regular citizens to be a thorn in the side of occupying forces.

In any case I'm sure everyone here is a decent enough rper to talk out these issues and reach a agreement I hope.

[The Blazing Aura]

This argument whilst yes having devolved isn't me just trying to shove points in your face, I'm still trying to point out to you that a) you're not the second coming of Napoleon and b) the errors in your plans that you deem so perfect that nothing can ever beat it.

Right let's start at the beginning of this post.

Napoleon tactics would still be effective at this point, in 35 years tactics and strategy literally changed zero.

IRL yeah, but remember there was no Napoleon in this, this is Alt History, how do you know that tactics and strategy are still completely the same for every player here?

The armies in the American Civil War fought in line formation with rifles using minie balls and rifling guns, that is the reason there was such a huge death toll.

Once again IRL vs this RP

Now, my innovations, I.E. The modified Phalanx, increased survivability and mobility while using semi-line tactics, meaning the soldier can move out of the way of the projectile and cannons don't deal as much damage to the formation.

As far as his use of Polish units, I know I do not have access to some of them, but that does not stop me from being effective with his strategies overall. He used his strategies long before he had access to Polish troops and even before he became a full on general, when he led artillery.

Ok, so all we have to go on how good this 'modified Phalanx' is is your word. Thereby it could be brilliant or there could be a reason why no-one used it in the real world. I personally want to see your soldiers move out of the way of cannon shot that's coming for them from the other end of a smoke filled battlefield. Also if your troops are forced to close ranks you've lost all your artillery power, meaning that suddenly a huge amount of your firepower on the field is useless
Polish units, whilst OK not a vital point in this I was merely trying to say that you couldn't do exactly as Napoleon did, and it may not work as well. Remember the foe you're going up against is completely different from anything Napoleon faced IRL, you don't know how well the formations are going to do so don't try and one up there.

1.) Now, if you want me to answer this so badly, I will. If you put two corps on either side of one of my corps, it will come up primarily to skill, leadership competency, and the make up of the force. But if that ever happened to ALL of my corps, or even one, then there has to be supreme incompetency within my military and it also puts the corps attacking my corps in a bad position because if they regroup into a single formation it would squash the enemy corps in the middle of their own and allow them to turn their attention outwards.

1 mile apart remember, you've got to effectively do a fighting retreat for a mile with your two outward corps' whilst the enemy are still hammering at you. It'd probably work but the casualties on your side would be tremendous. Also just because it happens doesn't mean there's an incompetence in your force, like I've repeatedly said, if you're doing a surgical strike at the Qirim capital then you're not going to leave forces every mile that you take between your border and the capital are you? that space would allow a force to come round on your rear, take on/out your supply train and then move on your rear, and with an army at your front as well then you're enemy is in an ideal position to attack you from two ways at once.

Haha, no. Artillery was used in flat ground combat by Napoleon, that is why he allowed his enemies to take higher ground. When artillery is in a square formation, and believe me it is more common than you think, it attacks enemies that are at a distance while protecting those operating the cannon from up close attacks. So your point is invalid.

I know Artillery was used in flat ground combat by Napoleon, I read the slideshow you linked. It can also be in a square formation of it's own, but like I said if you're going to put artillery in the middle of your infantry squares then if the infantry have to close ranks for any reason (say enemy cavalry) then you've suddenly lost the ability to fire your cannon, or else risk losing your infantry. My point isn't invalid you've just missed it's meaning.

No it doesn't, the slide-show clearly states that artillery does heavy damage at close range, supporting the fact that it is a low accuracy weapon.

So? just because it does heavy damage at close range doesn't mean it is automatically a low accuracy weapon, in fact with rifling of the barrels in the 1840's Cannons became more accurate. Beside's even if cannons were inaccurate if they were such a low accuracy weapon as you're seemingly making them out ot be, then why were they used at long range at all? unless of course they weren't. Besides shooting at large formations like you're they didn't need to be that accurate to hit something, it's just whether what they hit was their target or not was more of the question.

Artillery has to reload and it tends to be fired in volleys, with a rather slow reload time. Combine that with the fact that it is inaccurate and if that is all that is left the morale of the troops manning it will be low, the cannon operators will flee at the sight of the approaching force, or even if they didn't, they wouldn't be able to wipe out large amounts of my troops when they have space to move, preventing the carnage caused by tightly packed formations.

The Light Brigade was about cavalry forces charging up hill at entrenched cannons which had heavy infantry support, because a miscommunication in their chain of command (probably from officer incompetence) ordered them to go to the wrong artillery battery.

Yeah, OK so once again we come to your misconception about artillery, although this time you're forgetting that for your light infantry to be in range of the cannon they themselves would also be in the lethal range of the cannon where they would be most effective. Where did either of us say about the cannon being the last things left? we didn't so why are you even going on about it, in fact i said about having the Infantry BEHIND the cannon, they certainly wouldn't be the last ones left then, making your entire thing about morale pointless. The cannons would fire two, three rounds then as you're forces get closer they move back into the Infantry squares set up behind them, and suddenly you have two forces of infantry attacking each other.

Don't go on to me about the Light Brigade, I know exactly what happened in it, i merely used it as an example of just how many can die against a well place cannon barrage or two.

I understand that, however the person who is roleplaying tends to put the effects in their own favor, I.E. "my morale is improving" and not "we are suffering heavy casualties from the incompetence of our officers." Just because he roleplays the response doesn't mean it should be in his favor.

The average RPer, maybe. But there are people out there (surprise surprise) who do RP fairly, from what I've been seeing you're not one of them but Glasgia is.

Even if my supply train was cut off, I could forage so it isn't a big deal.

Once again I refer back to my point of yeah, sure you can forage for food, but what about gunpowder, shot, weapons? you can't just rummage around in a forest and find them lying around. When I say supplies I mean everything like that not just food

Doesn't matter, once I have finished my conquests in the Qirim, I will set up a permanent supply line and pro-Russian viceroyalty in the area from among those raised in Qirim. This will give me a forwarding point for supplies and troops.

Once you've done that yes, but you haven't yet and even once you've taken (if you do take) Qirim then you've got to set it up, something that takes time, something you probably wouldn't have.

Oh and for the record I am listening to your facts and I am thinking about them before I'm responding, I'm not just trying to shove my 'proof' in your face, like I said at the beginning this is me pointing out to you where your plan may fail, I'm also working out some things for myself. If anything you're the one who's ignoring me and shoving all your 'facts' in my face, my points are invalid or if they are try and show me how and not just shrug them off.

[Dwartzur]

I'm neutral in this debate but I think both Tyben and Neros are trying to say that not every citizen whose homeland is under invasion is going to pick up arms and fight against the invaders. Most people are not gonna give up their life's if they are just regular citizens unless they are provoked or very loyal to their country and/or that individual has nothing to loose. I don't think anyone here is trying to control or god mod with someone else's population but the point at least in my opinion is that Neros is just stating that its not realistic for every man, woman, and child to become a warrior and pick up arms to fight against Russia. Also I'm not saying anyone said every man, woman, and child will fight against Russia I'm just making a point.

I agree, but it is of my opinion that if you look over the hill, and an Army is marching towards your house. You look the other way and it seems another army is coming to defend your house, odds are you are going to join the fight on the side of the defenders because they are, in fact, defending your home.

Principally when Tyben himself describes that the soldiers of his army "want to burn, kill and rape everything in their sight" as he does. He said that a few times already, what leads to making me believe his army is famous for this, and therefore, most citizens should be worried.
And yes, from what I know, the majority of Qirim's population is tatar, not russian.

And I'd not say that you can take his capital city before any kind of reinforcements arrive, there'll probably be some fighting. We'd have to see how Glasgia will react first. It's all about who has the best strategy here.

I'm not one for arguing in the OOC thread, though. I think the RP is going good for now, and wish to see what will happen next in the IC.

[Halleon]

Not trying to argue or offend anyone but Russia and once again no offense to anyone but Russia was rather famous for the whole "rape and pillage" whenever they conquered or was invading a area. I think the Russian Army was like that at least up to and during World War 2, yeah citizens are gonna be worried that they are being invaded however being worried and fighting are two different thing.

I think a lot of it boils down to what kind of mindset and what kind of weapons citizens of Qirim have access to. If all the population only had access to pitchforks then I don't see what good it will do but if they have access to armories like a National Guard then yeah its gonna have a bigger impact.

@ Dwartzur I got a question for you concerning Georgia in North America would you be willing to sell it?

[Fortunagen]

Hall, what would you say to Occitania and France starting a program to develop fertilizer-like agricultural products? I was thinking because for one, our peoples come from the same agricultural regions, and two, neither of us are really doing much internationally.

What do you think?

[Halleon]

Hall, what would you say to Occitania and France starting a program to develop fertilizer-like agricultural products? I was thinking because for one, our peoples come from the same agricultural regions, and two, neither of us are really doing much internationally.

What do you think?

Sounds like a good ideal to me, want it to be State or Company funded? Could do like a mixture of public and private investment into starting that program. I'm not doing much internationally so it would give France some interaction with the outside World.