Game of Thrones: Win or Die [Sign-up, OOC]

[Ceannairceach]

Not quite so simple. If it were, the Tyrells or Lannisters would have made a bid for kingship the day the last dragon (animal) died and Dorne and the North would have declared independence.
The books more have a theme that there is power in blood and bloodlines, both in belief and even in fact. The recent usurpation of those bloodlines, and all the death and woe that has followed under the mistaken belief that any lord with swords is the next Aegon, shows that steel by itself isn't really enough.

Of course this is an RP with little magic involved, and in any event my observation were meant more in general to the worthiness of the Velaryon bloodline than to the practicability of it in an RP.

See, I think you're overstating things. The blood matters only insofar as people remain loyal to it and the ideas behind it; The Tyrells, Martells, Lannisters and Starks didn't rebel when the last dragon died because they were bound to the Targaryens at that point by more than just their ability to beat them into submission with dragons; Society in Westeros was built, following Aegon's Conquest, around the idea that their was one king, and all authority and power derived from him. Dragons simply enforced that rule. While I won't deny the magic of blood in some cases--Valyrians obviously have it, and the other Great Houses as well to some extent--but that magic didn't stop the majority of the Seven Kingdoms from revolting when Aerys became mad. Blood matters, to be certain, but not nearly as much as the Lords of Westeros pretend that it does. The Boltons still betrayed the Starks despite their blood, and the Baratheons the Targaryens.

[Ceannairceach]

Not quite so simple. If it were, the Tyrells or Lannisters would have made a bid for kingship the day the last dragon (animal) died and Dorne and the North would have declared independence.
The books more have a theme that there is power in blood and bloodlines, both in belief and even in fact. The recent usurpation of those bloodlines, and all the death and woe that has followed under the mistaken belief that any lord with swords is the next Aegon, shows that steel by itself isn't really enough.

Of course this is an RP with little magic involved, and in any event my observation were meant more in general to the worthiness of the Velaryon bloodline than to the practicability of it in an RP.

The lack of a Dragons and the presence of a Single superior Bloodline simply complicates the politics but it's always been the same.

Robert was able to sit on the throne and keep it because he could claim it by blood, in the same light if Ned Stark had sat his arse on the throne then there would have been problems.

Robert used that as a justification to sit on the Throne. He was going to do it anyway, but it might as well look like he had cause to do so.

[Ulster]

You recall that Robert did not want to be king nor did he really care about a justification, right? He was not going to do it anyway, he was persuaded by Jon Arryn and Eddard Stark to do it to prevent a full-blown civil war. Robert's rebellion was never about taking the Iron Throne. That was a side effect.

[Ulster]

See, I think you're overstating things. The blood matters only insofar as people remain loyal to it and the ideas behind it; The Tyrells, Martells, Lannisters and Starks didn't rebel when the last dragon died because they were bound to the Targaryens at that point by more than just their ability to beat them into submission with dragons; Society in Westeros was built, following Aegon's Conquest, around the idea that their was one king, and all authority and power derived from him. Dragons simply enforced that rule. While I won't deny the magic of blood in some cases--Valyrians obviously have it, and the other Great Houses as well to some extent--but that magic didn't stop the majority of the Seven Kingdoms from revolting when Aerys became mad. Blood matters, to be certain, but not nearly as much as the Lords of Westeros pretend that it does. The Boltons still betrayed the Starks despite their blood, and the Baratheons the Targaryens.

And I believe you understate it. Magic is very real, and there is magic in certain bloodlines. The high lords did not remain loyalty simply because of the idea of one king. They'd had their own kings for thousands of years. They stayed loyal as long as they did because the Targaryens were seen as something strange and magical and almost god-like (especially to many of the smallfolk).
The Boltons betrayal has, as I'm sure you've seen in ADWD, caused certain events of a supernatural nature. The Baratheons I must make an exception for, since they did not betray the Targaryens. Instead, Aerys abrogated his duties by ordering Robert's death without cause or trial.

[Ceannairceach]

You recall that Robert did not want to be king nor did he really care about a justification, right? He was not going to do it anyway, he was persuaded by Jon Arryn and Eddard Stark to do it to prevent a full-blown civil war. Robert's rebellion was never about taking the Iron Throne. That was a side effect.

Yes, I realize that, but someone was going to have to sit on the Iron Throne, and as the head of the rebel coalition, Robert was most likely to sit, whether he wanted to or not.

See, I think you're overstating things. The blood matters only insofar as people remain loyal to it and the ideas behind it; The Tyrells, Martells, Lannisters and Starks didn't rebel when the last dragon died because they were bound to the Targaryens at that point by more than just their ability to beat them into submission with dragons; Society in Westeros was built, following Aegon's Conquest, around the idea that their was one king, and all authority and power derived from him. Dragons simply enforced that rule. While I won't deny the magic of blood in some cases--Valyrians obviously have it, and the other Great Houses as well to some extent--but that magic didn't stop the majority of the Seven Kingdoms from revolting when Aerys became mad. Blood matters, to be certain, but not nearly as much as the Lords of Westeros pretend that it does. The Boltons still betrayed the Starks despite their blood, and the Baratheons the Targaryens.

And I believe you understate it. Magic is very real, and there is magic in certain bloodlines. The high lords did not remain loyalty simply because of the idea of one king. They'd had their own kings for thousands of years. They stayed loyal as long as they did because the Targaryens were seen as something strange and magical and almost god-like (especially to many of the smallfolk).
The Boltons betrayal has, as I'm sure you've seen in ADWD, caused certain events of a supernatural nature. The Baratheons I must make an exception for, since they did not betray the Targaryens. Instead, Aerys abrogated his duties by ordering Robert's death without cause or trial.

That is certainly overstating things; The lords and former kings of Westeros didn't only stay with the Targaryens simply because they were "magical" or "godlike", they stayed because they were beaten utterly, and by the time that the Targaryens lost their teeth, they got used to the idea of a more ordered realm with a single ruler, and to lose that would mean chaos for the realm. If anything, the notion that they were magical and all powerful was seeded into the populace to ensure that they didn't rebel against the foreign invaders, who most certainly would have lost if the realm was united against them, as they did in Dorne.

[Ulster]

Yes, I realize that, but someone was going to have to sit on the Iron Throne, and as the head of the rebel coalition, Robert was most likely to sit, whether he wanted to or not.

Again, that isn't entirely accurate. Jon Arryn was the head of the rebellion, and it's greatest mind. It was his advice that Robert sit the Iron Throne, but it was never a given. Arryn himself was expected to succeed, I recall Ned pointing out.

That is certainly overstating things; The lords and former kings of Westeros didn't only stay with the Targaryens simply because they were "magical" or "godlike", they stayed because they were beaten utterly, and by the time that the Targaryens lost their teeth, they got used to the idea of a more ordered realm with a single ruler, and to lose that would mean chaos for the realm. If anything, the notion that they were magical and all powerful was seeded into the populace to ensure that they didn't rebel against the foreign invaders, who most certainly would have lost if the realm was united against them, as they did in Dorne.

That's contrary to the lore of the story. The Targaryens were indeed surrounded with an aura of being above mere men. And their subjects were not beaten utterly, not by half. The North bent the knee without defeat, the Vale was militarily undefeated, Dorne only came in through a peace on its terms, and the Ironborn humbled by dragons but little else. The Stormlands were taken in single-combat. Only the Westerlands and Reach were beaten on the field of battle, and not utterly. Jaime Lannister lost a larger army at Riverrun than were killed on the Field of Fire.
The nobles equally held the bloodline of the Targaryens in special regard, in part because except for a few exceptions the Targs didn't marry outside the family (which makes the idea of a Targ-Lannister match amusing lore-wise) and only to family's with exceptional bloodlines themselves: Velaryon, Westerling, Arryn, Martell.
And all that isn't even mentioning the Starks.

Anyway, I'd say it's a little silly to state that in a series called "A Song of Ice and Fire" with magic and promised princes, that blood and bloodlines don't matter or hold power. R+L=J, remember?

[Sherwoode]

House Frey of The Twins and The Trident
[box]House Frey of The Twins



House Name: House Frey of The Twins and the Crossing

House Leader/Lord: Lord Stevron Frey (35)

House Members:

• Lady Aelyse of House Caron[/url], Wife of Lord Stevron (32)
• Ser Jaemys Frey, Firstborn, heir to the Twins, son of Stevron and Aelyse(17)
• Aelyra "The Fair" Frey, First daughter, a maid (12)
• Kester Frey, Second son of Lord Stevron and Lady Aelyse (9)
• Ser Eamynn Frey[/url], Brother of Stevron (28)
• Lady Valetta Cassel, Wife of Eamynn, they have a child on the way (20)
• Maester Taerynce, third Maester to Stevron's Father (64)
• Lady Elyssa Caron, second cousin and ward to the Lady Aelyse, betrothed of Jaemys (13)
• More Freys
  ...

Others:

• Ser Ryder “River” Caron, brother of Aelyse, Commander of Household Guard (36)
• Ser Oghren Frey, cousin of Stevron, (28)

Sworn Houses:[/b]
Charlton, Erenford, Haigh

About:

The House Frey is known for its wealth, power, and the abundance of those bearing the House name, and Stevron’s father, the “Late Lord” Walder Frey. The title was given after a battle on the Trident long ago, and Lord Frey’s men were the last to arrive, after the battle was over. Walder Frey is proud to a fault and was said to be the only lord in the Seven Kingdoms who could field an army out of his breeches.

The Freys are bannermen to House Tully of Riverrun, and reside over the land and portion of the rivers known as The Twins. House Frey has many offspring, and is one of the largest Houses, albeit wealthy, they do not rule over the Seven Kingdoms, just the Twins and whoever so deigns to gain passage. Stevron Frey became Lord when his father died at ninety-three, with a wife seventy years younger than he. Stevron has many siblings from his father’s past wives, and his family grows more each year.

Walder’s holding of the Crossing has made the House prosper in offspring and wealth, due to the tolls they have set for other Houses. They have spread their advantage by marrying their young to other houses, giving squires and knights as boys to be raised as wards in the halls of the Houses of the Riverlands. Late Lord Walder Frey’s influence is still felt.

Military Strengths: 80,000 (approx.)

Naval Capacity: 250 galleys stationed at the Twins and along the Green, Blue, and Red Forks (The Trident) and towards The Neck, 80 are pledged to Riverrun.[/align]

((Question: could I make it so that the Freys have a bit of Targaryen blood from before, but Stevronn doesn't want the throne because he doesn't want to risk adding to the civil war that'll soon break out? He could just be biding his time because the Freys are a proud lot... And I'll also add more relatives to the Frey line in time. I might go by the "Late Lord Frey's" doings and extent the family somehow...))

((And here's another controversial truth: such an important house to the original series should have it's own words, right? How about "Every Toll Must Be Payed."?? Or, "Ours Is The Quantity." Or, "We Are None Too Few."....))

[Evraim]

Velaryon, mayhaps.

Why would they do that? Your House is small and weak, with little holdings. Just seems illogical.

We've made three wives to dragons, and the blood of Old Valyria flows strong and pure as the Rhoyne in our veins. That's why.

Robert used that as a justification to sit on the Throne. He was going to do it anyway, but it might as well look like he had cause to do so.

Actually, it might have been Jon or Ned except for Robert's being a distant relation to the dragons. While military strength is important, the appearance of legality matters a great deal as well. Otherwise, the position one holds will always be subject to questions, and questions breed discontent. Had Aerys been a decent ruler, it would have been exceedingly difficult to rebel against him due to the lack of a legitimate rationalization. Nobody doubted that he was the rightful king. House Velaryon would add legitimacy to a claimant with spurious claims, but, in this case, such a match might not be optimal.

[Shadyrya]

Frey does not have eighty thousand troops, or that many ships.

[Ceannairceach]

Again, that isn't entirely accurate. Jon Arryn was the head of the rebellion, and it's greatest mind. It was his advice that Robert sit the Iron Throne, but it was never a given. Arryn himself was expected to succeed, I recall Ned pointing out.

I recall a lot being said about who could of or should of succeeded. Thoughts of many characters pointed to Robert, Ned, Jon and Tywin all. But the fact remains that as much as Jon Arryn was the big guy behind the rebel powers, it was Robert who they rallied behind, even if he was just the figure that Jon was "using", as harsh a word as that sounds. It was Robert's war, even if Jon was the person fighting it.

That's contrary to the lore of the story. The Targaryens were indeed surrounded with an aura of being above mere men. And their subjects were not beaten utterly, not by half. The North bent the knee without defeat, the Vale was militarily undefeated, Dorne only came in through a peace on its terms, and the Ironborn humbled by dragons but little else. The Stormlands were taken in single-combat. Only the Westerlands and Reach were beaten on the field of battle, and not utterly. Jaime Lannister lost a larger army at Riverrun than were killed on the Field of Fire.
The nobles equally held the bloodline of the Targaryens in special regard, in part because except for a few exceptions the Targs didn't marry outside the family (which makes the idea of a Targ-Lannister match amusing lore-wise) and only to family's with exceptional bloodlines themselves: Velaryon, Westerling, Arryn, Martell.
And all that isn't even mentioning the Starks.

Anyway, I'd say it's a little silly to state that in a series called "A Song of Ice and Fire" with magic and promised princes, that blood and bloodlines don't matter or hold power. R+L=J, remember?

The thing about this lore is that, as confirmed by several characters thus far, a lot of it just doesn't make sense. Hell, I believe it's Samwell who notes that if certain lines are followed, then the believed invasion date of the Andals simply couldn't be true. So I don't think appealing to the lore can be used as a very good justification, when we can assume that half of it is myth, and the other half are blatant untruths.

Now, I won't deny that the Targ's weren't seen as simply better, but that can be attributed to the fact that, with less men than any of the other high houses, and with the power of the dragons, they managed to conquer from High Garden to Winterfell. But the fact remains that the Targaryens laid low the other houses to some extent. The Lannisters and Gardeners had their armies crushed on the Field of Fire. The Hoare's lost their entire noble family at Harrenhal, and their Riverlands vassals were abandoning them en masse. The Stormlords lost hope during the Battle of the Last Storm, where Argilac wasn't just defeated in single combat, but had his army there crushed even when he had overwhelming power. The North only capitulated because of the Field of Fire, I'd remind you, not wanting to have a repeat of House Gardener on their hands.

I agree that the nobility of Westeros held the blood in special regard, but thinking it is special does not actually make it special, and lends credence to my thought that the belief in the power--not the supposed power itself--is what kept the Targaryens in power. As we saw during Robert's Rebellion, once the dragons were lost, the houses needed only stop listening to throw off the shackles of Old Valyria.

I'd note that half of the prophecies thus far have come up wanting or simply failed, so yeah, I don't think bloodlines are THAT important.

[Ceannairceach]

Frey does not have eighty thousand troops, or that many ships.

Let alone the projection ability to station those ships along each of the prongs of the Trident.

[Evraim]

Frey does not have eighty thousand troops, or that many ships.

Let alone the projection ability to station those ships along each of the prongs of the Trident.

Indeed.

[Sherwoode]

Frey does not have eighty thousand troops, or that many ships.

Let alone the projection ability to station those ships along each of the prongs of the Trident.

Alright then, how many troops would you say they had, and how many ships? I can't give an exact number, so I gave what I thought would be an okay if rough estimate.

[Ceannairceach]

Let alone the projection ability to station those ships along each of the prongs of the Trident.

Alright then, how many troops would you say they had, and how many ships? I can't give an exact number, so I gave what I thought would be an okay if rough estimate.

Well, the Iron Island boasts the least troops of the great houses at around twenty thousand, and the most ships of them with about three to five hundred. So make guesses of that, I suppose.

[Ulster]

House Frey has 4,000 men and probably some river galleys.

[Evraim]

Alright then, how many troops would you say they had, and how many ships? I can't give an exact number, so I gave what I thought would be an okay if rough estimate.

As a minor House, I would estimate their numbers at no more than five or six thousand. I would definitely place them above three thousand, which is the number ascribed to the Boltons, whom I would presume govern a less populous region, but I would hesitate to put the number above six thousand, as that makes them rivals of the more affluent Houses in the Reach. I would give them perhaps one or two war galleys, while the majority of their rather small naval forces would be comprised of river boats. All in all, they should be noticeably weaker than the Tullys.

[Sherwoode]

So would you say the estimate of some 300 ships in total is too much for the Frey's to have stations along the Forks? i mean, I guess it would make more sense for them to have a safe amount...

Yeah, i read that on the wiki page... I had a feeling I was way off... I'll dim it down. Around 6,000 troops at most, and maybe 3 galleys at the least (five may be stretching it...)? Alrighty. But I'll have to do it tomorrow. Good Night, and thanks for your help.

[Evraim]

So would you say the estimate of some 300 ships in total is too much for the Frey's to have stations along the Forks? i mean, I guess it would make more sense for them to have a safe amount...

I would give them no more than fifty small river boats, and perhaps an even smaller amount.

Yeah, i read that on the wiki page... I had a feeling I was way off... I'll dim it down. Around 6,000 troops at most, and maybe 3 galleys at the least (five may be stretching it...)? Alrighty. But I'll have to do it tomorrow. Good Night, and thanks for your help.

This would be preferable. I'm not sure House Frey would have any use for galleys at all though. They are rather landlocked, are they not?

[Cheten]

I'll spelling and grammar check my post in the morning but you'll get the jist of it im sure its super late so pleasant dreams all

[The Nuclear Fist]

So since the position of Lord Commander of the Kingsguard was taken, can I just edit my app for one of the members of House Clegane to be on the Kingsguard, then?

[Sealord Laerio Grynsell]

I'll spelling and grammar check my post in the morning but you'll get the jist of it im sure its super late so pleasant dreams all

Let's get an alliance super quick before the Redwynes come .

[Sealord Laerio Grynsell]

So since the position of Lord Commander of the Kingsguard was taken, can I just edit my app for one of the members of House Clegane to be on the Kingsguard, then?

Probably. If the position is still vacant. (Can be seen in the OP)

[The Nuclear Fist]

So since the position of Lord Commander of the Kingsguard was taken, can I just edit my app for one of the members of House Clegane to be on the Kingsguard, then?

Probably. If the position is still vacant. (Can be seen in the OP)

Excellent. It seems that Tytos 'Stonejaw' Clegane will have a place, afterall.

[Sealord Laerio Grynsell]

I'll spelling and grammar check my post in the morning but you'll get the jist of it im sure its super late so pleasant dreams all

Hey, I think Harry will intercept a message of ´lighter´ tone to Pentos. If you don't agree with it, feel free to send me a better version by TG.

[Of the Quendi]

Again, if you send me an ultimatum with some alternative offer, I'll lift the siege.

An ultimatum I will send, as for an alternative offer that will largely be something along the lines of "House Redwyne + allies won't crush you" so it is hardly an appealing alternative.

Is Gerold no longer sending the letter?

Well he has more or less been arrested and his ravens killed so unless Bartholomew lets him or he manage to smuggle a message out it doesn't seem likely.

Can anyone give me an update for the IC so far?

The Ironborn are raiding in the Westerlands, the Lannister's has tightened their grip on King's Landing. The Starks are marching north to deal with the wildling invasion while simultaneously calling for a council to decide on the succession (which it has OOC'ly more or less been agreed should take place in Harrenhal). Grand Maester Gerold has been arrested. House Baratheon is on the verge of pledging allegiance to Highgarden in exchange for a dynastic marriage and representatives from both Tyrell and Baratheon is meeting Prince Quentyn in Oldtown. Arryn seems to be looking for an alliance with the Lannisters. Volantis and Braavos try to expand encountering Redwyne opposition. A 35k strong Lannister army is preparing to march on the capital, presumably by way of the Riverlands.

So since the position of Lord Commander of the Kingsguard was taken, can I just edit my app for one of the members of House Clegane to be on the Kingsguard, then?

Yes.