Roleplay of the World 1252 (OOC, Open)

[Pavlostani]

A whole continent is still a whole continent, damn the population density.

Have you ever played Risk?

Only with you.

[The Holy Dominion of Inesea]

Have you ever played Risk?

Only with you.

Do you know what happens to the Player who tries to take all of Asia?

[Pavlostani]

Only with you.

Do you know what happens to the Player who tries to take all of Asia?

His soldiers dine on excellent food? Mm, now I'm thinking of the dim sum I ate earlier. For those of you who don't know, I'm Asian.

[Alleniana]

The 80 K men I have are mostly crap only about 15-20,000 are actually well or moderately well trained men.

But they all eat and drink the same amount.
Let's assume each man drinks 2 litres of water a day. That requires at least 160k litres. Plus 1 litre per man for washing, bathing, cooking, which is very low. 240k. Let's be very generous and put other water uses (nobles use more, wetting your battering rams, wastage, etc.) at 10k. 250k litres of water A DAY. Assuming a cart can carry 100 litres each trip, and each trip take 1 day, and each cart needs 1 person, you will need 2500 carts carrying water round the clock.
And that's jsut the people (not horses or camels) and not even including food. And your army is small compared to MT's.

Alright.
I have many, many issues.
1. So, what is the population of Ethiopia? if they can afford to send 100k men away from the homeland to some far flung place, then they must have at least 10 million people, which I doubt, but I may be wrong.
2. How the HELL are the two big Muslim nations supporting that number of troops? Their armies are the size of armies typically found in the Industrial Revolution era, or thereabout. Moving them through the desert and not even posting about supplies? Wtf?
3. What is the population of Carthage? You have 80,000 men, which I doubt greatly. Even the Angevin empire would barely be able to muster that number of professionals, although with defensive advantage, I suppose that makes a point.
4. How come you keep saying you have a big-ass navy? When I conquered Florence, I conquered it upstream. Your managing to get people there at all was a miracle, which, in retrospect, looks like a massive glaring godmod. Not to mention, you have only had about 50 years to build up (I think?) with a small-ish country, newly established and mainly in the desert.
5. So, how is Carthage going to be conquered? Spam men at it? Sure, eventually, ignoring logistics, you might win. But do you really think hundreds of thousands of men will be like "eh, whatever" and rush at a wall they have seen possibly hundreds of thousands die attacking continually? Ignoring logistics, so this army may not even exist.
6. Death ratios. No. The attacker must have approximately 20 times the defenders to be definite of victory (as in, certain) , at least 10 times to be sane and attempt an attack, and at the very least, 5 times the attackers if they even want a chance to win.
7. Navy. Not sure what everyone's views on it are, but this is mine.
Me and Kiev win.
I am the foremost Mediterranean maritime power, with over a thousand vessels. Kiev, not sure, but they have claimed to be as powerful or even more so than me, and although that MAY be an exaggeration, they are still the undoubted boss of the Black Sea and a major Mediterranean power. You may have noticed that we are both on the same side, along with some other powers. On the Muslim side, we have two non-naval concentrated countries with relatively few trees, one of which has a Red Sea focused navy. So not strong. Then there's Ethiopia, which will have to sail their navy, likely not too big, around Africa. So no to that as well.
8. Money? Money. Listen. When you hire mercs, you need buttloads of money. They are quite literally putting their lives on the line to do something that will take a lot of time, resources, trust, energy and stuff in return for money. They are risking their livelihood. So you'd assume you need a lot of money. You get money from taxes. When 2.5% of your population is on a massive war, you will already be massively short on money. Also, money is hard to get you know. You don't just say "oh, I mined this" and suddenly have lots of money. Money is very hard to get, and very hard to retain. So keep that in mind.
9. Travelling. How did all of you suddenly pop into existence armies of thousands, then have them pop somewhere? Not all of you are guilty, but a few are. You can only move from about one side of the Nile Delta to the other in a week if you want them to be able to fight at the end. Also, mobilizing takes lots of time and organization. Your army doesn't just sit in the capital smoking every day. If it, did everyone would be bankrupt.

How is a kingdom next door a "far flung place"? It is right across the fucking river from me!

next door? Your troops are marching up through Nubia, through Egypt and to Carthage. That's like from Poland to Spain.

I wasnt talking about spain?

I did not know if you were Ayyubid or Almohades. Spain(Almohades) and Arabia(Ayyubids) are big population areas. That is why the count seems low.

Really? Arabia is mostly desert, but Egypt is fertile as hell. You sure?

*Cough* ICD, Annaba and Algiers both have large shipyards. You control both. Maybe, when the Almohaden navy goes by, you attacke?

The Almohad navy is the admiration and terror of the Mediterranean. Good luck!

Where are those Mongols, by the way?

Then we'll leave it at 300 elite ships. Perhaps a scant few more in time.

The thing about the Mongols is that I doubt three major players will be in any way affected by their rampage. Hahaha

Quite Honestly, I field an army of 100,000. I COULD safely field an army of 350,000. The Mongols at most got 45,000.

45,000? Are you talking about the same Mongols who conquered Chian, SIberia, TUrkestan and nearly Vienna?

[Inoroth]

If we literally just spam Carthage by sending everyone of our men up the walls then have them open the gate, eventually we will win.

Not necessarily -- do you remember the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae? They lasted for a very long time against overwhelming numbers, and what killed them in the end was being out-flanked, something far harder to accomplish with walls. While I am not saying it's impossible to win merely by throwing numbers at a problem, I am saying that it doesn't guarantee success, nor is it usually the most efficient method.

Alright.
I have many, many issues.
1. So, what is the population of Ethiopia? if they can afford to send 100k men away from the homeland to some far flung place, then they must have at least 10 million people, which I doubt, but I may be wrong.
2. How the HELL are the two big Muslim nations supporting that number of troops? Their armies are the size of armies typically found in the Industrial Revolution era, or thereabout. Moving them through the desert and not even posting about supplies? Wtf?
3. What is the population of Carthage? You have 80,000 men, which I doubt greatly. Even the Angevin empire would barely be able to muster that number of professionals, although with defensive advantage, I suppose that makes a point.
4. How come you keep saying you have a big-ass navy? When I conquered Florence, I conquered it upstream. Your managing to get people there at all was a miracle, which, in retrospect, looks like a massive glaring godmod. Not to mention, you have only had about 50 years to build up (I think?) with a small-ish country, newly established and mainly in the desert.
5. So, how is Carthage going to be conquered? Spam men at it? Sure, eventually, ignoring logistics, you might win. But do you really think hundreds of thousands of men will be like "eh, whatever" and rush at a wall they have seen possibly hundreds of thousands die attacking continually? Ignoring logistics, so this army may not even exist.
6. Death ratios. No. The attacker must have approximately 20 times the defenders to be definite of victory (as in, certain) , at least 10 times to be sane and attempt an attack, and at the very least, 5 times the attackers if they even want a chance to win.
7. Navy. Not sure what everyone's views on it are, but this is mine.
Me and Kiev win.
I am the foremost Mediterranean maritime power, with over a thousand vessels. Kiev, not sure, but they have claimed to be as powerful or even more so than me, and although that MAY be an exaggeration, they are still the undoubted boss of the Black Sea and a major Mediterranean power. You may have noticed that we are both on the same side, along with some other powers. On the Muslim side, we have two non-naval concentrated countries with relatively few trees, one of which has a Red Sea focused navy. So not strong. Then there's Ethiopia, which will have to sail their navy, likely not too big, around Africa. So no to that as well.
8. Money? Money. Listen. When you hire mercs, you need buttloads of money. They are quite literally putting their lives on the line to do something that will take a lot of time, resources, trust, energy and stuff in return for money. They are risking their livelihood. So you'd assume you need a lot of money. You get money from taxes. When 2.5% of your population is on a massive war, you will already be massively short on money. Also, money is hard to get you know. You don't just say "oh, I mined this" and suddenly have lots of money. Money is very hard to get, and very hard to retain. So keep that in mind.
9. Travelling. How did all of you suddenly pop into existence armies of thousands, then have them pop somewhere? Not all of you are guilty, but a few are. You can only move from about one side of the Nile Delta to the other in a week if you want them to be able to fight at the end. Also, mobilizing takes lots of time and organization. Your army doesn't just sit in the capital smoking every day. If it, did everyone would be bankrupt.

1.) Yes, numbers do seem a bit high -- reminds me more of a Persian army fighting the Greeks than something out of Ethiopia
2.) Yes, Desert Logistics are incredibly difficult today, let alone in the 1200's... water and food reserves are going to be immensely important and difficult to maintain, and I can almost see the invaders starving themselves while they besiege Carthage, with their thirst and hunger breaking the siege in the end.
3.) I don't know much about Carthage and what was done in the last threads, but it seems to me that every able-bodied man and lad would be armed, and if all the surrounding communes were evacuated ahead of the Muslim horde, it might be doable.
4.) Again, I don't know much about what went on in the last threads, but this objection seems legitimate -- if two naval super-powers of the Mediterranean are allied against the Muslim attackers, the water probably belongs to the Coalition.
5.) Yup, morale is not an infinite resource among men, and zerg-rushing the walls without a plan will eventually demoralize even the most resilient men, and in the end you'll have a route as like as not.
6.) Not sure about the numbers, but when it comes to siege warfare, 3:1 are not very good odds for an attacker, and even 6:1 odds aren't great (actually, they probably make the battle just about even, with a slight advantage retained by the defenders.)
7.) Again, not sure who ought to have the larger navy, but this sounds reasonable-ish.
8.) Well, yes and no -- you could always pay them a minimum and then allow them keep any booty that they find... after all, some of the surrounding villages are going to be unprotected and just asking for ransacking. I don't have an issue with mercs, just not 50,000 of them.
9.) Yes, the RPing of logistics has thus-far been rather appalling. I am new here, and am just looking for something to do while my other RP's get over the slows, and I don't know what is acceptable or not here yet, so I've been quiet... but some of the statements of where and how armies are have made me cringe.

Allen has a fair point about the army sizes; together the attackers have raised about 620k men, if posts are to be believed, a figure which outnumbers Napoleon's Grand Armee (of 1812) by seventy thousand men. You can make the "they're not professionals" argument all you want, but putting that amount of men in a single area to attack a single city means tens of thousands, if not hundreds, will be dying monthly from disease, starving because the tiny coastal riads of N Africa can't hope to supply them, and in general being inefficient in the attack.

Lets think about this; being generous, suppose Carthage, being on the sea-side, has a perimeter wall of four miles. The average human male is about 2.5 feet wide. Four miles is ~21000 feet for you metric people, and assuming your average siege ladder is about three feet wide to accommodate the climbing soldier (21000/3 = 7000) only seven thousand attacking troops can be assailing the walls at once. That means about 1.1% of the attacking force can actually be engaging in the assault at any given time, even if the attackers raise ladders and keep them up on literally every single foot of wall. All the rest are just standing around waiting with arrows and rocks raining down on them, and Carthage with reinforcements assuredly has enough men to cover the length of the wall, so many many waves will be necessary to secure victory.

That was guesstimated maths, but you get the picture; in medieval times the consideration wasn't always how many men you could deploy, but how many men you could effectively deploy. I group my forces into Great Companies of five thousand for precisely that reason. A RL Roman legion was the same size, and large enough to accomplish all but the most grinding of military tasks without reinforcements, without risks huge losses to disease and remaining fairly easy to supply on a local level.

A breath of wisdom! I agree 100% with this assessment, and I also am honored that you credit my ancestors, the Romans, for the logistical brilliance the truly did wield

Isn't there a secret rebellion or planing of one going on in the HRE, Or is it an outright rebellion with battles and such.

Not a rebellion, per se; more of the bigger HRE states collectively saying "why don't we just gobble up the little states" and the smaller HRE states saying "BIG STATES, WHT R U DUING? BIG STATES, STAHP IT!"

But that's probably not going to happen until after this unpleasant little Crusade business, because two of the now four HRE players are getting involved.

Is there, b/c I would totally support.

Did you just quote yourself ?

Do you know what happens to the Player who tries to take all of Asia?

I do, I do! They are spread too thin and usually get picked off by the other concentrated players, unless it's later in the game, then perhaps one might pull it off.

[Reatra]

Isn't there a secret rebellion or planing of one going on in the HRE, Or is it an outright rebellion with battles and such.

Not a rebellion, per se; more of the bigger HRE states collectively saying "why don't we just gobble up the little states" and the smaller HRE states saying "BIG STATES, WHT R U DUING? BIG STATES, STAHP IT!"

Oh, I'm quite a big state though, so yeah.

[Inoroth]

So, you're cool absorbing little states too? We shall have to agree upon some sort of boundary between us, because we are the closest to each other of all the HRE players, and it's likely we will share borders at some point. But we'll talk about those issues later.

[Valentir]

The 80 K men I have are mostly crap only about 15-20,000 are actually well or moderately well trained men.

But they all eat and drink the same amount.
Let's assume each man drinks 2 litres of water a day. That requires at least 160k litres. Plus 1 litre per man for washing, bathing, cooking, which is very low. 240k. Let's be very generous and put other water uses (nobles use more, wetting your battering rams, wastage, etc.) at 10k. 250k litres of water A DAY. Assuming a cart can carry 100 litres each trip, and each trip take 1 day, and each cart needs 1 person, you will need 2500 carts carrying water round the clock.
And that's jsut the people (not horses or camels) and not even including food. And your army is small compared to MT's.

How is a kingdom next door a "far flung place"? It is right across the fucking river from me!

next door? Your troops are marching up through Nubia, through Egypt and to Carthage. That's like from Poland to Spain.

I did not know if you were Ayyubid or Almohades. Spain(Almohades) and Arabia(Ayyubids) are big population areas. That is why the count seems low.

Really? Arabia is mostly desert, but Egypt is fertile as hell. You sure?

The Almohad navy is the admiration and terror of the Mediterranean. Good luck!

Where are those Mongols, by the way?

Quite Honestly, I field an army of 100,000. I COULD safely field an army of 350,000. The Mongols at most got 45,000.

45,000? Are you talking about the same Mongols who conquered Chian, SIberia, TUrkestan and nearly Vienna?

Allen, srsly READ MY FUCKING POSTS! MY TROOPS ARE NOT ATTACKING CARTHAGE! THEY ARE ATTACKING THE YEMEN"S LAND IN AFRICA! WTF? Don't ignore my posts and make up your own shit. And I have never rped moving through those lands. Next time read my posts before assuming i'm invading Carthage. As I'm not. Fuck.

[Alleniana]

But they all eat and drink the same amount.
Let's assume each man drinks 2 litres of water a day. That requires at least 160k litres. Plus 1 litre per man for washing, bathing, cooking, which is very low. 240k. Let's be very generous and put other water uses (nobles use more, wetting your battering rams, wastage, etc.) at 10k. 250k litres of water A DAY. Assuming a cart can carry 100 litres each trip, and each trip take 1 day, and each cart needs 1 person, you will need 2500 carts carrying water round the clock.
And that's jsut the people (not horses or camels) and not even including food. And your army is small compared to MT's.

next door? Your troops are marching up through Nubia, through Egypt and to Carthage. That's like from Poland to Spain.

Really? Arabia is mostly desert, but Egypt is fertile as hell. You sure?



45,000? Are you talking about the same Mongols who conquered Chian, SIberia, TUrkestan and nearly Vienna?

Allen, srsly READ MY FUCKING POSTS! MY TROOPS ARE NOT ATTACKING CARTHAGE! THEY ARE ATTACKING THE YEMEN"S LAND IN AFRICA! WTF? Don't ignore my posts and make up your own shit. And I have never rped moving through those lands. Next time read my posts before assuming i'm invading Carthage. As I'm not. Fuck.

I heard that you were aiding against Carthage, and I heard 100k men. YOu didn't seem to object until now, so I assumed it was correct. Sorry about that, but my statement about my doubt of the size of your army still stands.

[Valentir]

Allen, srsly READ MY FUCKING POSTS! MY TROOPS ARE NOT ATTACKING CARTHAGE! THEY ARE ATTACKING THE YEMEN"S LAND IN AFRICA! WTF? Don't ignore my posts and make up your own shit. And I have never rped moving through those lands. Next time read my posts before assuming i'm invading Carthage. As I'm not. Fuck.

I heard that you were aiding against Carthage, and I heard 100k men. YOu didn't seem to object until now, so I assumed it was correct. Sorry about that, but my statement about my doubt of the size of your army still stands.

According to Inesea I have around 1 to 2 million population. No doubt my economy will take some hits but I have RPed, before I invaded Yemen's african land, building markets, farms, and mines. I even RP building a new gold mine. This would help keep my economy up until the war ended. And there is always the spoils of sacking cities as well that I could use. Feeding may become a problem after a while but I could always import food from Egypt. Oh and the Ayyubids gave me a lot of lapis lazuli, gold, silver, and turquoise, boosting my wealth.

[Alleniana]

I heard that you were aiding against Carthage, and I heard 100k men. YOu didn't seem to object until now, so I assumed it was correct. Sorry about that, but my statement about my doubt of the size of your army still stands.

According to Inesea I have around 1 to 2 million population. No doubt my economy will take some hits but I have RPed, before I invaded Yemen's african land, building markets, farms, and mines. I even RP building a new gold mine. This would help keep my economy up until the war ended. And there is always the spoils of sacking cities as well that I could use. Feeding may become a problem after a while but I could always import food from Egypt. Oh and the Ayyubids gave me a lot of lapis lazuli, gold, silver, and turquoise, boosting my wealth.

I see. 100k would still put a stretch that will still be present a little while after quite some time due to it being 5-10% of your pop being totally absent from your countyr, but I suppose that's more ok. I generally don't ever send more than 1% into war.

[Grand Duchy of Nardin]

@ Pavlo and/or Allen: When do the ships transporting my troops reach Carthage? Or haven't the ships set sail yet?

[Lenciland]

I'm new so what is going on currently in the RP. I was accepted as Venice.

[Grand Duchy of Nardin]

I'm new so what is going on currently in the RP. I was accepted as Venice.

If you want to know, check the IC.

[Lenciland]

I'm new so what is going on currently in the RP. I was accepted as Venice.

If you want to know, check the IC.

I have read it I just need to know the dynamics and the backstroke.

[Inoroth]

If you want to know, check the IC.

I have read it I just need to know the dynamics and the backstroke.

Well, I am new here too, but basically:

Pav is unifying himself after a long civil war, Ethiopia is apparently invading Yemen, and a showdown is bubbling up in Carthage, where all good Catholics are expected to be in attendance to fight the Muslim Hordes and the occasional Christian Traitor

That's all I know for right know, ut as you can see it's not much

[Lenciland]

I have read it I just need to know the dynamics and the backstroke.

Well, I am new here too, but basically:

Pav is unifying himself after a long civil war, Ethiopia is apparently invading Yemen, and a showdown is bubbling up in Carthage, where all good Catholics are expected to be in attendance to fight the Muslim Hordes and the occasional Christian Traitor

That's all I know for right know, ut as you can see it's not much

Thanks man.

[Inoroth]

Thanks man.

No prob.

[Reatra]

What do you think a reasonable population is for Lorraine? It has about fourty thousand sq. miles so Id say a little tiny bit over one million.

[Mauretania Tingitana]

What do you think a reasonable population is for Lorraine? It has about fourty thousand sq. miles so Id say a little tiny bit over one million.

I'd say about 700,000. We tend to vastly overestimate Medieval populations.

[Reatra]

I was going to say that, but, there is a big city in Lorraine named Metz that has been a big city since the Romans conquered it in 52 b.c. (None of that is made up.) It is actually still one of like the top 20 biggest cities in France now. (It's a province of France now.) That being said I'll make it 850000 people, unless someone can PROVE me wrong with real evidence, that'll be my logic.

[Reatra]

Sooo... Inoroth, try not to take Luxembourg, Imma be working on them.... *maniacal laughter*

[Reatra]

http://worldhistorymaps.info/images/blank-East-Hem.jpg

Awesome map of the eastern Hemisphere, and it's big enough to put all the borders on. But you'll have to put numbers in the borders of the small nations like the original map though.

[Mauretania Tingitana]

http://worldhistorymaps.info/images/blank-East-Hem.jpg

Awesome map of the eastern Hemisphere, and it's big enough to put all the borders on. But you'll have to put numbers in the borders of the small nations like the original map though.

I think it's easier to just edit our old map. But let's wait until Carthage has fallen.

[The Holy Dominion of Inesea]

http://worldhistorymaps.info/images/blank-East-Hem.jpg

Awesome map of the eastern Hemisphere, and it's big enough to put all the borders on. But you'll have to put numbers in the borders of the small nations like the original map though.

I think it's easier to just edit our old map. But let's wait until Carthage has fallen.

*If Carthage falls