Europa Universalis: Our World (Alternate Earth: OOC/Open)

[Euronion]

Well there was the whole "Danzing or War" event that caused the Allied nations to guarantee the independence of Poland, so when Poland refused to give Danzing up, they attacked. It wasn't like Hitler got up one day and said "I'm going to invade Poland today".

Still doesn't matter. An attack is an attack.

It does matter because again you are looking at a band of pirates. Here, let me set this into perspective. If a ship off the coast of China started raiding Chinese Villages and left a piece of paper saying that the US officially has declared war on China, don't you think it would be easy to tell that these are not genuine? Would it be justified for China to declare war on the United States? In the Medieval Era, it didn't happen, or maybe it did but I am not familiar with any major war pre-1850 that did not start with an official Declaration of War in some form or another.

[The Cookish States]

Well there was the whole "Danzing or War" event that caused the Allied nations to guarantee the independence of Poland, so when Poland refused to give Danzing up, they attacked. It wasn't like Hitler got up one day and said "I'm going to invade Poland today".

Which is irrelevant.

Also, Hitler wasn't the most rational guy, I imagine he did many things rather whimsically.

Like Eva.

[Jamzmania]

Still doesn't matter. An attack is an attack.

It does matter because again you are looking at a band of pirates. Here, let me set this into perspective. If a ship off the coast of China started raiding Chinese Villages and left a piece of paper saying that the US officially has declared war on China, don't you think it would be easy to tell that these are not genuine? Would it be justified for China to declare war on the United States? In the Medieval Era, it didn't happen, or maybe it did but I am not familiar with any major war pre-1850 that did not start with an official Declaration of War in some form or another.

If it's so easy to tell it's fake then the Calphate will then know and you have nothing to worry about.

[Euronion]

It does matter because again you are looking at a band of pirates. Here, let me set this into perspective. If a ship off the coast of China started raiding Chinese Villages and left a piece of paper saying that the US officially has declared war on China, don't you think it would be easy to tell that these are not genuine? Would it be justified for China to declare war on the United States? In the Medieval Era, it didn't happen, or maybe it did but I am not familiar with any major war pre-1850 that did not start with an official Declaration of War in some form or another.

If it's so easy to tell it's fake then the Calphate will then know and you have nothing to worry about.

I guess so, I'm just a history person, I love history and I love historical integrity. It's just my nature.

[United States of Cascadia]

Sure, it's possible. But there is no evidence that anyone save the Vikings made a trans-atlantic crossing before Columbus. After all, possible does not mean probable.

Actually there is pretty decent evidence to support Zheng He's having possibly made it. I mean, I would say it's still unclear, as most do, but not impossible.

Last time I checked, China and the Americas aren't separated by the Atlantic.

[Parhe]

Actually there is pretty decent evidence to support Zheng He's having possibly made it. I mean, I would say it's still unclear, as most do, but not impossible.

Last time I checked, China and the Americas aren't separated by the Atlantic.

Mond may be talking about the idea Zheng He went around Africa to North America. Was a topic acfew of us discussed on IRC a few RP's ago. It is based on I believe some ancient-medieval Chinese coin or jewerly (I did not pay great attrntion to the channle at this specific time) found on the United States American eastern seaboard.

[United States of Cascadia]

Still doesn't matter. An attack is an attack.

It does matter because again you are looking at a band of pirates. Here, let me set this into perspective. If a ship off the coast of China started raiding Chinese Villages and left a piece of paper saying that the US officially has declared war on China, don't you think it would be easy to tell that these are not genuine? Would it be justified for China to declare war on the United States? In the Medieval Era, it didn't happen, or maybe it did but I am not familiar with any major war pre-1850 that did not start with an official Declaration of War in some form or another.

Oh god, where to begin? The Norse taking Normandy? The Normans in Sicily? The Mongols, well everywhere. The English in Wales, and Ireland, or even Scotland to some extent. Wars are not something that really need a declaration, even in the modern world, a declaration is really not that needed; after all, is it that hard to figure out that you're at war when someone is attacking you? But I digress, declarations were common, but far from required (particularly when there is no central governing body for international law).

[Great Nepal]

It does matter because again you are looking at a band of pirates. Here, let me set this into perspective. If a ship off the coast of China started raiding Chinese Villages and left a piece of paper saying that the US officially has declared war on China, don't you think it would be easy to tell that these are not genuine? Would it be justified for China to declare war on the United States?

If US and China had spent several decades with high tension and ship flying US flags attacks Chinese ship, china would grow highly suspicious of US. Letter from another nation saying US tried to form alliance to invade China could push Chinese over the edge.

In the Medieval Era, it didn't happen, or maybe it did but I am not familiar with any major war pre-1850 that did not start with an official Declaration of War in some form or another

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war#History
Your last source disagrees with you:-

However, the practice of declaring war was not always strictly followed. In his study Hostilities without Declaration of War (1883), the British scholar John Frederick Maurice showed that between 1700 and 1870 war was declared in only 10 cases, while in another 107 cases war was waged without such declaration

So, declaring war was more of rarity than you think. Only 8.5% of wars were started with official declaration of war.

[Euronion]

It does matter because again you are looking at a band of pirates. Here, let me set this into perspective. If a ship off the coast of China started raiding Chinese Villages and left a piece of paper saying that the US officially has declared war on China, don't you think it would be easy to tell that these are not genuine? Would it be justified for China to declare war on the United States?

If US and China had spent several decades with high tension and ship flying US flags attacks Chinese ship, china would grow highly suspicious of US. Letter from another nation saying US tried to form alliance to invade China could push Chinese over the edge.

In the Medieval Era, it didn't happen, or maybe it did but I am not familiar with any major war pre-1850 that did not start with an official Declaration of War in some form or another

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war#History
Your last source disagrees with you:-

However, the practice of declaring war was not always strictly followed. In his study Hostilities without Declaration of War (1883), the British scholar John Frederick Maurice showed that between 1700 and 1870 war was declared in only 10 cases, while in another 107 cases war was waged without such declaration

So, declaring war was more of rarity than you think. Only 8.5% of wars were started with official declaration of war.

1. And if that letter came from a nation that the US had accused of framing them? and if those ships were terrorist vessels that the Chinese observed did not come from US harbors? I don't really think so.

2. First of all, it wasn't my source, Secondly, it deals with the years 1700-1870. We are dealing with a war of the 15th Century therefore this is inapplicable. Allow me to readjust what I meant to say, by Declaration of War, I don't mean an official document ratified by Parliament, etc. You don't just suddenly decide to raid enemy vessels, it doesn't happen. As someone pointed out earlier with the Norse in Normandy, that is an exception, the Mongols were a traveling Empire that did not hold themselves to European Standards, an exception. If there are two stable Kingdoms, you do not just start killing their crews. Anything that you say and do are acts of Pirates. Anyone can grab a flag and fly it, that doesn't mean that suddenly you represent that government. If someone decides to go into Iran with a gun waving a US flag and kills some people, does that mean that the US has committed an act of war against Iran? is Iran justified in declaring war on the US? You can't just all of a sudden decide to grab a flag, grab a boat, go start killing people and assume that it will be blamed on the person's flag you are flying.

[Jamzmania]

If US and China had spent several decades with high tension and ship flying US flags attacks Chinese ship, china would grow highly suspicious of US. Letter from another nation saying US tried to form alliance to invade China could push Chinese over the edge.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war#History
Your last source disagrees with you:-

So, declaring war was more of rarity than you think. Only 8.5% of wars were started with official declaration of war.

1. And if that letter came from a nation that the US had accused of framing them? and if those ships were terrorist vessels that the Chinese observed did not come from US harbors? I don't really think so.

2. First of all, it wasn't my source, Secondly, it deals with the years 1700-1870. We are dealing with a war of the 15th Century therefore this is inapplicable. Allow me to readjust what I meant to say, by Declaration of War, I don't mean an official document ratified by Parliament, etc. You don't just suddenly decide to raid enemy vessels, it doesn't happen. As someone pointed out earlier with the Norse in Normandy, that is an exception, the Mongols were a traveling Empire that did not hold themselves to European Standards, an exception. If there are two stable Kingdoms, you do not just start killing their crews. Anything that you say and do are acts of Pirates. Anyone can grab a flag and fly it, that doesn't mean that suddenly you represent that government. If someone decides to go into Iran with a gun waving a US flag and kills some people, does that mean that the US has committed an act of war against Iran? is Iran justified in declaring war on the US? You can't just all of a sudden decide to grab a flag, grab a boat, go start killing people and assume that it will be blamed on the person's flag you are flying.

Iran might take it as an act of war whether or not they believe it though, just for the sake of an causus beli because of such high tensions. The point is that the move was not meant to trigger war but to plant the seeds of distrust, it's unlikely the Caliphate will believe this was an official Portuguese ship, it may have been a framed ship or perhaps even a rouge ship, either way they may or may not trust Portuguese ships as much as they did previously.

[Heirosoloa]

2. First of all, it wasn't my source, Secondly, it deals with the years 1700-1870. We are dealing with a war of the 15th Century therefore this is inapplicable. Allow me to readjust what I meant to say, by Declaration of War, I don't mean an official document ratified by Parliament, etc. You don't just suddenly decide to raid enemy vessels, it doesn't happen. As someone pointed out earlier with the Norse in Normandy, that is an exception, the Mongols were a traveling Empire that did not hold themselves to European Standards, an exception. If there are two stable Kingdoms, you do not just start killing their crews. Anything that you say and do are acts of Pirates. Anyone can grab a flag and fly it, that doesn't mean that suddenly you represent that government. If someone decides to go into Iran with a gun waving a US flag and kills some people, does that mean that the US has committed an act of war against Iran? is Iran justified in declaring war on the US? You can't just all of a sudden decide to grab a flag, grab a boat, go start killing people and assume that it will be blamed on the person's flag you are flying.

It's really hard to make comparisons between the modern era and the fifteenth century like this. If your given situation did occur, Iran and the US would probably not go to war.

However, the difference lies in the fact that we have the internet, and phones, and jumbo-jets, etc.
The US can very quickly deny any involvement with press releases that will be available in Iran instantly. The President can call the Supreme Leader/President of Iran and inform them himself, instantaneously, that the US was in no way involved. And the fact that the media is everywhere, that everyone has a smartphone, and the police can pretty easily track you if they wanted to, POTUS has some evidence to back up his claim.
This is the fifteenth century and the population is, for the most part, uneducated. They couldn't recognize the Portuguese flag even if they wanted to. Nor could they recognize Portuguese. All they know is a fuckton of men in shiny metal armor just came in and started a slaughter. The survivors will report back as best as they can, and if anyone can remember the colors and shape of the flag, they'll report back something that vaguely resembles the Portuguese flag.
Given that it will be weeks, and not minutes, before the Caliph will hear back from the Portuguese monarchs, who he can't trust, he has to just make a decision with what he has.

[Mondrova]

2. First of all, it wasn't my source, Secondly, it deals with the years 1700-1870. We are dealing with a war of the 15th Century therefore this is inapplicable. Allow me to readjust what I meant to say, by Declaration of War, I don't mean an official document ratified by Parliament, etc. You don't just suddenly decide to raid enemy vessels, it doesn't happen. As someone pointed out earlier with the Norse in Normandy, that is an exception, the Mongols were a traveling Empire that did not hold themselves to European Standards, an exception. If there are two stable Kingdoms, you do not just start killing their crews. Anything that you say and do are acts of Pirates. Anyone can grab a flag and fly it, that doesn't mean that suddenly you represent that government. If someone decides to go into Iran with a gun waving a US flag and kills some people, does that mean that the US has committed an act of war against Iran? is Iran justified in declaring war on the US? You can't just all of a sudden decide to grab a flag, grab a boat, go start killing people and assume that it will be blamed on the person's flag you are flying.

It's really hard to make comparisons between the modern era and the fifteenth century like this. If your given situation did occur, Iran and the US would probably not go to war.

However, the difference lies in the fact that we have the internet, and phones, and jumbo-jets, etc.
The US can very quickly deny any involvement with press releases that will be available in Iran instantly. The President can call the Supreme Leader/President of Iran and inform them himself, instantaneously, that the US was in no way involved. And the fact that the media is everywhere, that everyone has a smartphone, and the police can pretty easily track you if they wanted to, POTUS has some evidence to back up his claim.
This is the fifteenth century and the population is, for the most part, uneducated. They couldn't recognize the Portuguese flag even if they wanted to. Nor could they recognize Portuguese. All they know is a fuckton of men in shiny metal armor just came in and started a slaughter. The survivors will report back as best as they can, and if anyone can remember the colors and shape of the flag, they'll report back something that vaguely resembles the Portuguese flag.
Given that it will be weeks, and not minutes, before the Caliph will hear back from the Portuguese monarchs, who he can't trust, he has to just make a decision with what he has.

I will of course be distrustful following this. One of the reasons that the Caliph's administration was so hesitant to agree to the non-aggression pact was in case something such as this should occur. I will probably demand something for Portugal for some reason, however, I am doubtful of the idea that war could be so easily instigated between to nations. I mean if war was so easy to begin surely practices such as these would be used all throughout history. Presumably to avoid such things, countermeasures of some sort have been put in place, even if it is as simple as not going ape shit right away.

[Euronion]

Well either way the ball is in the Caliph's court now.

Though I am confused as to how exactly we are supposed to fight naval and land battles? I mean I can say I fired at a British ship, but I can't say that they did anything in particular as that would be up to the other player. We can't exactly spam the thread with one liners that redirect our troops. Do we start a new thread and think of a new mechanic for war?

[Jamzmania]

Yeah, how are we going to do battles and stuff? It could take several posts over a certain length of time to detail a single, large battle - while at the same time several months of time could have passed for other nations according to the current time rules.

[Heirosoloa]

Yeah, how are we going to do battles and stuff? It could take several posts over a certain length of time to detail a single, large battle - while at the same time several months of time could have passed for other nations according to the current time rules.

Welcome to role play. Time is usually fluid for this reason. Hence the slow down followed by time skip method that Gar is implementing.

[Great Nepal]

Though I am confused as to how exactly we are supposed to fight naval and land battles? I mean I can say I fired at a British ship, but I can't say that they did anything in particular as that would be up to the other player. We can't exactly spam the thread with one liners that redirect our troops. Do we start a new thread and think of a new mechanic for war?

Thats why I prefer to work at strategic level, it can be lot longer as it involves large amount of ships and army, hence war goes faster and it is longer than one line. If it is one line, just expand on it till it becomes two paragraph.

[Ublia]

Sorry guys about my absence but not to fear I am ready to post!

[Jamzmania]

Though I am confused as to how exactly we are supposed to fight naval and land battles? I mean I can say I fired at a British ship, but I can't say that they did anything in particular as that would be up to the other player. We can't exactly spam the thread with one liners that redirect our troops. Do we start a new thread and think of a new mechanic for war?

Thats why I prefer to work at strategic level, it can be lot longer as it involves large amount of ships and army, hence war goes faster and it is longer than one line. If it is one line, just expand on it till it becomes two paragraph.

Yeah, that's basically what you need to do. Include as much detail and useless side information as you can.

[Horusland]

Yeah, how are we going to do battles and stuff? It could take several posts over a certain length of time to detail a single, large battle - while at the same time several months of time could have passed for other nations according to the current time rules.

Speaking of that, what are the current time rules? How fast does time pass?

[Garwall]

Mkay. Sorry 'bout the absences, but it seems that I have a habit of trying to undertake large RP's when time isn't on my side. Before we march on with the IC, we should probably start ironing out some issues/questions people have.

I understand the time passage bit is a bit screwy, but the idea is that when things slow down in the IC and there's no massive wars going on, we can skip ahead a few years and bring everything back into clip. This is the first RP I've tried with a few additions as to how it'll work, so it isn't perfect.

[Jamzmania]

Well I am still waiting for Serbia to make a post in our war.

[Parhe]

I can work on a short joint once Aqua adds the post I requested.

[Jamzmania]

What should I do about Serbia though? It's been 4 days since he said "I'll post tomorrow."

[Parhe]

What should I do about Serbia though? It's been 4 days since he said "I'll post tomorrow."

Pethaps he is from a different planet
Who is Serbia? If not soon, I would attemptvto at least work out in OOC what is happening.

[Euronion]

since we are going to slow down time soon for the various wars, I want to give the Caliphate a chance to respond before I post again, I've also been really busy this weekend so even if I wanted to post, I wouldn't have much luck doing so.