2013 Modern RP (MT/OOC/Signup) OPEN!

[Minnysota]

Regarding logisitcs, you seem to forget that I've had a week to bring in supplies prior to any coalition forces turning up in the AO. No reason then why the launcher's could not have been on the ships and the missiles arrived by air-cargo craft, at least no concern that I can see.

You've made zero mention of them, so the logistical forces have not been utilized. Also, you can't carry anti-ship missile systems on an aircraft. :|

For the disparity between forces, then yes, it exists, but the money you spend on fancy equipment doesn't direct translate to battlefeild dominance. Ask the Veitnamese that. But I can get that the American's do possess a large advantage in quality, but they're not supermen, just as the Brazilian troop's aren't untrained conscripts.

The United States slaughtered the NVA and VC. Losing a war because you lack public support (admittedly something you need, but not something that will really factor in here) =/= losing based on how your military did. The US wins this battle every time in real life.

And out of curiosity, why am I being hammered for logistics when the entire NATO force is operating south of the equator with a whole three logisical ships?

Brazil has piss poor power projection and even worse logistics. NATO has carriers and nuclear powered submarines. Germany might suffer a bit more because they lack these things, but their logistical forces are infinitely superior to yours.

[Vehemia]

In terms of my need of logistics I RP'd that my fleet is almost non operational due to lack of supplies.

[Minnysota]

Do I have to make the number chances for the roll? I'm not very experienced in that.

[Delanshar]

Do I have to make the number chances for the roll? I'm not very experienced in that.

You can make them or ask Vehemia for help. I can't give u my idea because it could be biased.

Also I launched another IC strike.

[Machtergreifung]

Regarding logisitcs, you seem to forget that I've had a week to bring in supplies prior to any coalition forces turning up in the AO. No reason then why the launcher's could not have been on the ships and the missiles arrived by air-cargo craft, at least no concern that I can see.

You've made zero mention of them, so the logistical forces have not been utilized. Also, you can't carry anti-ship missile systems on an aircraft. :|

For the disparity between forces, then yes, it exists, but the money you spend on fancy equipment doesn't direct translate to battlefeild dominance. Ask the Veitnamese that. But I can get that the American's do possess a large advantage in quality, but they're not supermen, just as the Brazilian troop's aren't untrained conscripts.

The United States slaughtered the NVA and VC. Losing a war because you lack public support (admittedly something you need, but not something that will really factor in here) =/= losing based on how your military did. The US wins this battle every time in real life.

And out of curiosity, why am I being hammered for logistics when the entire NATO force is operating south of the equator with a whole three logisical ships?

Brazil has piss poor power projection and even worse logistics. NATO has carriers and nuclear powered submarines. Germany might suffer a bit more because they lack these things, but their logistical forces are infinitely superior to myself

Page 6

The Brazilian fleet had dashed for port almost as soon as unloading was complete, and not a moment too soon, for the allied fleets soon began closing on the island, closing any hope of further supply by sea or air. However, by seizing the islands food supply and flying in extra munitions, the Brazilian troops had a healthy surplus.

Page 5

The first cargo aircraft landed on the airstrip a half-hour after the island was declared secure. As the troops off-loaded the extra food and munitions, those wishing to flee to Britain were loaded aboard for the return flight.

2. Seeing as the VC and NVA mangaed to inflict a suprising amount of losses on both the Americans and the American trained and equiped ARVN, with no major technological advantage themselves seems to say something about technology and it's role in winning wars.

3. You've avoided awsnering the question, why are my logistics such an affront when there's three ships supporting at in excess of 4000 odd troops and more than two dozen ships in the South Atlantic at least several hundred miles from the nearest port?

[Minnysota]

The quote was kind of messed up, so I'll respond here.

2) They inflicted surprising losses but they were still obliterated in every way, shape, and form. The only thing that Vietnam proved is that you can't win a war that the public doesn't support.

3) A big problem with your logistics force is that your most modern logistical ships are from the 60s. Meanwhile, a majority of the UK's active auxiliary force is from the 80s, 90s, and 2000s with I think one coming from the 70s (that is actively being replaced). I'll check their numbers to verify them.


Britain, Germany, and Canada:

Link me to your ORBATs for the deployments so I can verify your numbers.

[Vehemia]

For the first US strike I'd say the following is fair

0-10: US strike is very accurate inflicting large amounts of damage and casualties
11-30: US strike is fairly accurate inflicting moderate damage and casualties
31-50: US strike is inaccurate, strikes the island but fails to do much damage or inflict many casualties

All scenarios would result in Brazilian morale being severely affected.

[Delanshar]

For the first US strike I'd say the following is fair

0-10: US strike is very accurate inflicting large amounts of damage and casualties
11-30: US strike is fairly accurate inflicting moderate damage and casualties
31-50: US strike is inaccurate, strikes the island but fails to do much damage or inflict many casualties

All scenarios would result in Brazilian morale being severely affected.

Seems fair.

[Machtergreifung]

Alright, this talk of logistics has made me get the caluclator out.

A single Exocet weights 670 kilogram. I can't find details on the land launcher for Exocet's, so lets say it is twenty times that, around 12000 Kg.

A C-130 has a usefull load of 20000 kilograms. A single aircraft could transport a launcher and several missiles. Brazil has 20 C-130 or varients.

Under the assumption that not every aircraft is carrying a launcher, and every aircraft is flying non-stop for a week, you're looking at launchers and missiles on the island. Of course, some flights would be carrying food and other muntions types as well.

[Machtergreifung]

For the first US strike I'd say the following is fair

0-10: US strike is very accurate inflicting large amounts of damage and casualties
11-30: US strike is fairly accurate inflicting moderate damage and casualties
31-50: US strike is inaccurate, strikes the island but fails to do much damage or inflict many casualties

All scenarios would result in Brazilian morale being severely affected.

Seems fair to me, though wouldn't the casualites be limited from a limited number of precision weapons (JDAM's + Tomahawks end up numbering somewhere around 30) trying to do suppression on spread out, dug in troops?

Other than that, seems fine to me.

[Vehemia]

The quote was kind of messed up, so I'll respond here.

2) They inflicted surprising losses but they were still obliterated in every way, shape, and form. The only thing that Vietnam proved is that you can't win a war that the public doesn't support.

3) A big problem with your logistics force is that your most modern logistical ships are from the 60s. Meanwhile, a majority of the UK's active auxiliary force is from the 80s, 90s, and 2000s with I think one coming from the 70s (that is actively being replaced). I'll check their numbers to verify them.


Britain, Germany, and Canada:

Link me to your ORBATs for the deployments so I can verify your numbers.

German Forces in the Falklands

Ships
Hamburg (Air-Defense Frigate)
Augsburg (Multipurpose Frigate)
Bremen (Multipurpose Frigate)
Emden (Multipurpose Frigate)
Frankfurt am Main (Combat Support Ship)

Airpower
4 NH90 Helicopters
6 Super Lynx Helicopters
31 Eurofighter Typhoons

Manpower
80 Kampfschwimmer naval special forces (20 per frigate)

[Minnysota]

Under the assumption that not every aircraft is carrying a launcher, and every aircraft is flying non-stop for a week, you're looking at launchers and missiles on the island. Of course, some flights would be carrying food and other muntions types as well.

I pointed out your lack of ground-launched Exocets and Harpoons over TG.

Also, you've again made no mention of logistical flights so they have not occurred. There's a big difference between implying politics and then implying logistical/military decisions.

[Machtergreifung]

The quote was kind of messed up, so I'll respond here.

2) They inflicted surprising losses but they were still obliterated in every way, shape, and form. The only thing that Vietnam proved is that you can't win a war that the public doesn't support.

3) A big problem with your logistics force is that your most modern logistical ships are from the 60s. Meanwhile, a majority of the UK's active auxiliary force is from the 80s, 90s, and 2000s with I think one coming from the 70s (that is actively being replaced). I'll check their numbers to verify them.


Britain, Germany, and Canada:

Link me to your ORBATs for the deployments so I can verify your numbers.

2) 50,000 dead and 300,000 wounded is a fairly good example of how technology doesn't protect your men from peasants armed with old WW2 Soviet weaponary. And we both agree that's not the situation the Brazilian Army is in.

3) I fail to see how my naval logitical ships are a factor. They've off-loaded the original cargo off troops and returned to the coast. The shiney new logistical ships are great, I agree, and much better than the post-WW2 Brazilian junk but there are still only two of them covering an entire ocean.

[Machtergreifung]

Under the assumption that not every aircraft is carrying a launcher, and every aircraft is flying non-stop for a week, you're looking at launchers and missiles on the island. Of course, some flights would be carrying food and other muntions types as well.

I pointed out your lack of ground-launched Exocets and Harpoons over TG.

Also, you've again made no mention of logistical flights so they have not occurred. There's a big difference between implying politics and then implying logistical/military decisions.

Sorry, NS butchered the post I made above. Let me requote.

The Brazilian fleet had dashed for port almost as soon as unloading was complete, and not a moment too soon, for the allied fleets soon began closing on the island, closing any hope of further supply by sea or air. However, by seizing the islands food supply and flying in extra munitions, the Brazilian troops had a healthy surplus.

The first cargo aircraft landed on the airstrip a half-hour after the island was declared secure. As the troops off-loaded the extra food and munitions, those wishing to flee to Britain were loaded aboard for the return flight.

Page 6 & 5 respectively.

[Minnysota]

2) 50,000 dead and 300,000 wounded is a fairly good example of how technology doesn't protect your men from peasants armed with old WW2 Soviet weaponary. And we both agree that's not the situation the Brazilian Army is in.

We should also factor in that it isn't a comparable situation. Vietnam is significantly further away than Ascension is. It's not as densely forested as Vietnam is, and this isn't a place that is supported by a population adamantly against the US. Hell, this is a British territory being occupied by Brazilians. The two situations are /not/ comparable.

3) I fail to see how my naval logitical ships are a factor. They've off-loaded the original cargo off troops and returned to the coast. The shiney new logistical ships are great, I agree, and much better than the post-WW2 Brazilian junk but there are still only two of them covering an entire ocean.

If you fail to see how important logistical forces are, then you are screwed in any half-realistic war RP you will ever do.

[Minnysota]

The Brazilian fleet had dashed for port almost as soon as unloading was complete, and not a moment too soon, for the allied fleets soon began closing on the island, closing any hope of further supply by sea or air. However, by seizing the islands food supply and flying in extra munitions, the Brazilian troops had a healthy surplus.

The first cargo aircraft landed on the airstrip a half-hour after the island was declared secure. As the troops off-loaded the extra food and munitions, those wishing to flee to Britain were loaded aboard for the return flight.

Fair enough, but that still does not give you ground-launched cruise missiles. You will have more men and more general supplies, but your air defenses are still worthless against standoff munitions and you have no defenses against the USN.

[Delanshar]

The quote was kind of messed up, so I'll respond here.

2) They inflicted surprising losses but they were still obliterated in every way, shape, and form. The only thing that Vietnam proved is that you can't win a war that the public doesn't support.

3) A big problem with your logistics force is that your most modern logistical ships are from the 60s. Meanwhile, a majority of the UK's active auxiliary force is from the 80s, 90s, and 2000s with I think one coming from the 70s (that is actively being replaced). I'll check their numbers to verify them.


Britain, Germany, and Canada:

Link me to your ORBATs for the deployments so I can verify your numbers.

2) 50,000 dead and 300,000 wounded is a fairly good example of how technology doesn't protect your men from peasants armed with old WW2 Soviet weaponary. And we both agree that's not the situation the Brazilian Army is in.

I would argue the US is in an even better position this time. First off, Vietnam is a poor example because it went on for years with hundreds of thousands of American boots on the ground.

Also the US has consistently proven itself to be better at fighting conventional forces (such as Brazil or Saddam's Iraq) then guerillas like the VC or Taliban.

[Minnysota]

For the first US strike I'd say the following is fair

0-10: US strike is very accurate inflicting large amounts of damage and casualties
11-30: US strike is fairly accurate inflicting moderate damage and casualties
31-50: US strike is inaccurate, strikes the island but fails to do much damage or inflict many casualties

All scenarios would result in Brazilian morale being severely affected.

I rolled an 18.

[Delanshar]

For the first US strike I'd say the following is fair

0-10: US strike is very accurate inflicting large amounts of damage and casualties
11-30: US strike is fairly accurate inflicting moderate damage and casualties
31-50: US strike is inaccurate, strikes the island but fails to do much damage or inflict many casualties

All scenarios would result in Brazilian morale being severely affected.

I rolled an 18.

Alright then. Moderate damage and casualties from the first strike.

[Machtergreifung]

Fair enough, but that still does not give you ground-launched cruise missiles. You will have more men and more general supplies, but your air defenses are still worthless against standoff munitions and you have no defenses against the USN.

Of course, standoff munitions and the USN are fair game due to the tech gap. I've zero issues with that.

quote="Minnysota";p="12069013"]

2) 50,000 dead and 300,000 wounded is a fairly good example of how technology doesn't protect your men from peasants armed with old WW2 Soviet weaponary. And we both agree that's not the situation the Brazilian Army is in.

We should also factor in that it isn't a comparable situation. Vietnam is significantly further away than Ascension is. It's not as densely forested as Vietnam is, and this isn't a place that is supported by a population adamantly against the US. Hell, this is a British territory being occupied by Brazilians. The two situations are /not/ comparable.

3) I fail to see how my naval logitical ships are a factor. They've off-loaded the original cargo off troops and returned to the coast. The shiney new logistical ships are great, I agree, and much better than the post-WW2 Brazilian junk but there are still only two of them covering an entire ocean.

If you fail to see how important logistical forces are, then you are screwed in any half-realistic war RP you will ever do.[/quote]

Oh, no, I understand the importance of logistics, I just don't see how they still factor in.

Troops land, off-load cargo. Ships return to port. Additional munitions are flown in via air.

So, with a garrison on the island with a reasonable stockpile, and my fleet close to shore, how am I misunderstanding the logistical situation? If you're meaning that the island garrison will run out of ammo quicker than beans, then yes, I got that.

[New Nassrau]

Hmmm.... Russia is getting more unstable... I might request NATO forces to be stationed in Estonia just in case... alas, lets look at my military and how I want it to be!

The Maavägi! (Army)

Tanks- None
Armored Personnel Carrier-Patria Pasi XA-188
Support Vehicle-Bandvagn 206(And I will say I have troop carrier, Anti-Tank missile, and mortar varients)
Mortar- M/41D
Towed Artillery-FH-70
Towed Anti-Tank Gun-Pvpj 1110
AA-Just outdated and terrible, blargh!
AT Missiles- Numerous! not so blargh!
-A multitude of foreign assault rifles and such

-Only light helo's for air force... blargh
-only one actual frigate... blargh

[Minnysota]

So, with a garrison on the island with a reasonable stockpile, and my fleet close to shore, how am I misunderstanding the logistical situation? If you're meaning that the island garrison will run out of ammo quicker than beans, then yes, I got that.

My point is you can't be badgering the NATO troops for logistics when your situation is really no better.

[Vehemia]

Minnysota I linked you my ORBAT further up the page. I think it got buried already.

[Delanshar]

Hmmm.... Russia is getting more unstable... I might request NATO forces to be stationed in Estonia just in case... alas, lets look at my military and how I want it to be!

The Maavägi! (Army)

Tanks- None
Armored Personnel Carrier-Patria Pasi XA-188
Support Vehicle-Bandvagn 206(And I will say I have troop carrier, Anti-Tank missile, and mortar varients)
Mortar- M/41D
Towed Artillery-FH-70
Towed Anti-Tank Gun-Pvpj 1110
AA-Just outdated and terrible, blargh!
AT Missiles- Numerous! not so blargh!
-A multitude of foreign assault rifles and such

-Only light helo's for air force... blargh
-only one actual frigate... blargh

The US would be willing to station Patriot Missile Batteries in Estonia. To help protect from any missiles coming from Russia. We should see what the rest of NATO thinks tho..

[New Nassrau]

Hmmm.... Russia is getting more unstable... I might request NATO forces to be stationed in Estonia just in case... alas, lets look at my military and how I want it to be!

The Maavägi! (Army)

Tanks- None
Armored Personnel Carrier-Patria Pasi XA-188
Support Vehicle-Bandvagn 206(And I will say I have troop carrier, Anti-Tank missile, and mortar varients)
Mortar- M/41D
Towed Artillery-FH-70
Towed Anti-Tank Gun-Pvpj 1110
AA-Just outdated and terrible, blargh!
AT Missiles- Numerous! not so blargh!
-A multitude of foreign assault rifles and such

-Only light helo's for air force... blargh
-only one actual frigate... blargh

The US would be willing to station Patriot Missile Batteries in Estonia. To help protect from any missiles coming from Russia. We should see what the rest of NATO thinks tho..

I was just about to send a request to NATO about stationing some in Estonia!