1939! The World of Tomorrow! [PT/ALT-HIST/OOC/OPEN]

[Redemption-America]

Just BTW, Weimar hyper-inflation was caused by the Ruhr valley occupation, not the great depression.

But anyway, I just assumed that there'd be many independence movements across Europa Zentral since it's a German-dominated superstate ruling over the culturally and ethnically diverse European continent, and this is the age of fascism after all. Hungary seemed a viable choice because it would be disgruntled by the loss of quasi-independence following the union and the frequent racial attacks of Iron Guard Romanians, as well as their RL links to nationalism.

I agree with you about China, but the difference is that Chinese provinces are de facto run by the Warlords, whereas I am just a political party.

Also, the ethnic minorities are said to be 'restless' in your intro to EZ, so I took that as disgruntled at being ruled over

If you want me to play something else, that's fine by me.

I'd like to have you along, just don't think a Magyar resistance would be the best choice.

[Delsola]

In regards to Fascism:

Currently there are only three European States that could be defined as fascist: France, Spain, and Portugal.
France:
France's government has taken a sharp turn to the right after several years under leftist rule. This is the result of France's conservatives gradually embracing a more overtly anti-parliamentarian attitude in response to the hated Popular Front's legislative program. Irredentist ultra-nationalism is more or less endemic to most non-communist and non-socialist Frenchmen and might be the one thing uniting most of the French electorate.
The current government is heavily factionalized (as is customary for French politics). On the reactionary fringe is Action Francaise which advocates integralist Catholicism and monarchy. The Republican Federation can be seen as advocating a more moderate version of the Action Francaise, urging integralist national regeneration without advocating for monarchy. The PAPF is an agrarian party that is anti-capitalist and anti-modern in its orientation. The Neo-Socialists are essentially pacifist fascists. The openly fascist parties are the PPF and PSF which maintain an uneasy alliance, the PPF being more totalitarian and violent in its orientation. Meanwhile the Democratic Alliance is a conservative party which performs a moderating influence, but is still fiercely anti-socialist. Pierre Taittinger is a member of PPF, but personally identifies more as a Bonapartist and French Nationalist rather than outright fascist. His role as leader is mostly because he is the only person accepted by all the parties of the ruling coalition.

Spain and Portugal both have quasi-fascist governments, but in fact are more traditionalist and corporatist than truly fascist.

Within Europa Zentral, the largest and oldest fascist movement is the National Fascist Party of Italy. Its roots lie in the guerilla war against the Austrians that raged prior to Europan conquest of Italy. Mussolini emerged as a leading intellectual and military leader of the Fasci and was sent to prison before the war broke out between Europa and Italy. While in prison he wrote his autobiography which articulated his philosophy and helped spread the ideology of fascism through Europe. At the end of the war he was released and organized his movement into a legitimate political party. Since then, the fascists have played a disruptive and sometimes violent role in Italian political life. Their displays of political power have been mostly been peaceful, but always provocative and they regularly brawl with the police. They are more similar to the real-life SA before the Nazis rose to power than to the Iron Guard. Most people who have been murdered by the fascists have been Italian communists. Mussolini has been careful to avoid direct links to criminal activity. He is under constant police and Abwehr surveillance. The Fascists have gained the support of a large swathe of the Italian population, including the the elite. They might very well be the leading political movement in Italy, but they do not participate in the Reichstag, proclaiming it illegitimate, preferring to push their agenda in the Italian parliament. Fortunately for the Europans, Italy's politics are so chaotic, that a civil war within Italy between the fascists and the communists is more likely than Italy breaking away from the Reich.

In the German speaking lands there fascism exists, but is predictably minor. The most influential of these movements within the former Deutsches Reich is the Nazi Party, led by the brothers Strasser. It remains a left-wing nationalist group, reflecting its pre-Hitlerite form. The Nazi party is militaristic and ultra-nationalists but emphasizes an anti-capitalist, radical restructuring of society in which traditional elites are deposed. It is both anti-Hohenzollern and anti-Habsburg, with a plan for a new Germany in which all the Volk are united regardless of the old distinctions of region and class. The Nazis are not strong outside of Bavaria, where are a minority party in the Landtag, but their ideology has made some headway in the Dutch/Flemish Netherlands.

Opposing the Nazis, are the Austro-fascists, officially the Vaterländische Front. Under the leadership of Engelbert Dolfuss, the Austro-fascists propose a single-party corporatist state in which Austria's interests are protected. This does not mean that they wish independence from Europa Zentral, rather they are characterized by a strong anti-Hohenzollern stance. They support the Habsburg. In contrast to the Nazis and, to some extent, the Italian Fascists, the Austro-Fascists are virulently pro-Catholic. The Austro-Fascists and the Nazis occasionally clash as the Nazis try to encroach on Dolfuss' turf.

The Netherlands and the occupied French territories are hotbeds of anti-Europan nationalism. Occupied France is tightly controlled, with political groups severely restricted. No fascist party has emerged, but the populace is supportive of the irredentist policies of the French right. In the Netherlands, the Rexists represent the interests of Walloons and advocate a monarchial, clerical fascism similar to the Austro-fascists. Dutch speakers have formed several parties imitating the ideology of German Nazism.

The Iron Guard, the paramilitary force of the Legion of the Archangel Michael, is the most threatening fascist movement in Europa Zentral. It is second only to the Italian Fascists in numbers and money, but it is far more violent. In the 1937 elections, the Legion earned over 15% of the vote. The death of the Legion's founder Corneliu Codreanu has not weakened the movement. Instead, Codreanu, who was murdered by the police, has become a martyr for Romanian independence. In the wake of his death, the Iron Guard's terrorist attacks have only increased. The authorities are sometimes targeted, but more often civilian opponents of the Legion are murdered, sometimes in quite spectacular fashion. The Iron Guard particularly targets Jews and the Hungarians of Transylvania. The Legion advocates a racially-pure Greater Romania, cleansed of Germans, Jews, and Hungarians. Adhering to a mystical form of Orthodoxy, the Legion is also fiercely anti-Catholic.

Iron Front policies would be a good reason for Hungarian militancy, if not nationalism. Not only are they being targeted by Romanian kill squads, they are religiously opposed, as the Lands of the Crown of Saint Stephen are vigorously Catholic.

[Delsola]

Just BTW, Weimar hyper-inflation was caused by the Ruhr valley occupation, not the great depression.

But anyway, I just assumed that there'd be many independence movements across Europa Zentral since it's a German-dominated superstate ruling over the culturally and ethnically diverse European continent, and this is the age of fascism after all. Hungary seemed a viable choice because it would be disgruntled by the loss of quasi-independence following the union and the frequent racial attacks of Iron Guard Romanians, as well as their RL links to nationalism.

I agree with you about China, but the difference is that Chinese provinces are de facto run by the Warlords, whereas I am just a political party.

Also, the ethnic minorities are said to be 'restless' in your intro to EZ, so I took that as disgruntled at being ruled over

If you want me to play something else, that's fine by me.

I'd like to have you along, just don't think a Magyar resistance would be the best choice.

It's just that everywhere else is full, and Magyar nationalism is one of few that won't be marginalised. Italian fascism is on a pretty set course, so I wouldn't have much room for manoeuvre, and German, Dutch, Austrian etc. nationalism is all very minor. I've played South Africa in another RP, when they have more power than in this one, and I still felt somewhat marginalised and not in control. Hungarian nationalism just struck me as something that would exist, seeing as how they were opposed to outright dictation (as in before the Austro-Hungarian compromise) and somewhat unable to determine their own future. I'll think of something else.

[Alleniana]

If Europa Zentral went to war with any serious power, would they experience much trouble at home? Being such a multi-ethnic country it would be hard to keep together unless they all shared the power which doesn't seem to be the case, as the Germasn appear to be lording it over the Italians, and the Slavs are even more sidelined.

[The Akasha Colony]

Just BTW, Weimar hyper-inflation was caused by the Ruhr valley occupation, not the great depression.

I didn't mean to imply it was, just that it's a relatively contemporaneous example of what I would consider a full-on economic collapse, rather than a depression.

Also, the ethnic minorities are said to be 'restless' in your intro to EZ, so I took that as disgruntled at being ruled over

A good many are, although by that statement I had more the Poles, Italians, etc. in mind.

If Europa Zentral went to war with any serious power, would they experience much trouble at home? Being such a multi-ethnic country it would be hard to keep together unless they all shared the power which doesn't seem to be the case, as the Germasn appear to be lording it over the Italians, and the Slavs are even more sidelined.

As always, it depends on with whom and for what reasons. Given the strength of the garrisons, it would require a war large enough to force EZ to reduce its garrisons to such a point that a revolt would have a chance of succeeding. For this reason, EZ has little chance of proactively starting a war, although it has no problem sending small amounts of volunteer forces abroad since these don't compromise overall military readiness.

Political ideology also matters. A Soviet invasion is not likely to spark very much support given the lukewarm-at-best views on communism. A French invasion however might spark widespread revolt in the Low Countries. At the same time, however, the outbreak of war is also the necessary justification for martial law, giving the military greater powers to restrict meetings and the possession of weapons.

Italy also has rather mixed and divided views on the Reich. Yes, it was conquered militarily in the 1920s and as a result, a majority of Italians oppose their new political status, but the conclusion of the Lateran Treaty and the pope's general endorsement of the Catholic monarchy makes this somewhat less virulent than in, say, Romania.

[Alleniana]

Just BTW, Weimar hyper-inflation was caused by the Ruhr valley occupation, not the great depression.

I didn't mean to imply it was, just that it's a relatively contemporaneous example of what I would consider a full-on economic collapse, rather than a depression.

Also, the ethnic minorities are said to be 'restless' in your intro to EZ, so I took that as disgruntled at being ruled over

A good many are, although by that statement I had more the Poles, Italians, etc. in mind.

If Europa Zentral went to war with any serious power, would they experience much trouble at home? Being such a multi-ethnic country it would be hard to keep together unless they all shared the power which doesn't seem to be the case, as the Germasn appear to be lording it over the Italians, and the Slavs are even more sidelined.

As always, it depends on with whom and for what reasons. Given the strength of the garrisons, it would require a war large enough to force EZ to reduce its garrisons to such a point that a revolt would have a chance of succeeding. For this reason, EZ has little chance of proactively starting a war, although it has no problem sending small amounts of volunteer forces abroad since these don't compromise overall military readiness.

Political ideology also matters. A Soviet invasion is not likely to spark very much support given the lukewarm-at-best views on communism. A French invasion however might spark widespread revolt in the Low Countries. At the same time, however, the outbreak of war is also the necessary justification for martial law, giving the military greater powers to restrict meetings and the possession of weapons.

Italy also has rather mixed and divided views on the Reich. Yes, it was conquered militarily in the 1920s and as a result, a majority of Italians oppose their new political status, but the conclusion of the Lateran Treaty and the pope's general endorsement of the Catholic monarchy makes this somewhat less virulent than in, say, Romania.

Hmm... ok
I was hoping to remove France since they are Japan's allies. Europa Zentral could help remove France.

[The Akasha Colony]

Hmm... ok
I was hoping to remove France since they are Japan's allies. Europa Zentral could help remove France.

EZ won't attack first. It's politically all but impossible given the fatigue from WWI that affects even the relatively militarist Prussians. There are still conservatives who want to strike first, but they don't have enough influence to get the whole country to war. Of course, France is also all but guaranteed to attack EZ relatively soon.

[Alleniana]

Hmm... ok
I was hoping to remove France since they are Japan's allies. Europa Zentral could help remove France.

EZ won't attack first. It's politically all but impossible given the fatigue from WWI that affects even the relatively militarist Prussians. There are still conservatives who want to strike first, but they don't have enough influence to get the whole country to war. Of course, France is also all but guaranteed to attack EZ relatively soon.

That's what I mean; somehow get them to war with each other. France will probably attack soon, but I just want a way of making sure they lose. Maybe if I aided Zentral...

[The Akasha Colony]

EZ won't attack first. It's politically all but impossible given the fatigue from WWI that affects even the relatively militarist Prussians. There are still conservatives who want to strike first, but they don't have enough influence to get the whole country to war. Of course, France is also all but guaranteed to attack EZ relatively soon.

That's what I mean; somehow get them to war with each other. France will probably attack soon, but I just want a way of making sure they lose. Maybe if I aided Zentral...

There's nothing that can really be done. How are you going to aid a nation without access to the coast? And if you had it, how would you get past the Imperial Japanese Navy and then whatever French ships are operating in the Pacific? And lastly, what would you send? There's no need for manpower, and resources are easier to get from the Caliphate and the colonies. EZ is swimming in small arms, the only shortage is in tanks, which even among industrialized nations only a small handful can produce.

[Alleniana]

That's what I mean; somehow get them to war with each other. France will probably attack soon, but I just want a way of making sure they lose. Maybe if I aided Zentral...

There's nothing that can really be done. How are you going to aid a nation without access to the coast? And if you had it, how would you get past the Imperial Japanese Navy and then whatever French ships are operating in the Pacific? And lastly, what would you send? There's no need for manpower, and resources are easier to get from the Caliphate and the colonies. EZ is swimming in small arms, the only shortage is in tanks, which even among industrialized nations only a small handful can produce.

I dunno. In any case, I suppose I could declare support for them but not do anything. I could stall the Japanese if they try and aid France.

[The Chartered Colonies of Old Dominion]

Why would Brazil, which is barely capable of defending itself from an inevitable invasion by the Colombians, waste huge amounts of money on an adventure in China that is unlikely to ever succeed?

There is a reason why Brazil did not have a intercontinental empire in the 1940's. It is unlikely that Brazil's navy could withstand Argentina's much less lend any appreciable help against the Japanese. Brazil's arms manufacturing is extremely limited, most of Brazil's weapons are imports.

[Altito Asmoro]

I knew this will come...

For short, this is the plan of Vargas. Who knows, when he dies, and Eurico takes the command, it will not happen. At all. Except the investment.

[The Chartered Colonies of Old Dominion]

I knew this will come...

For short, this is the plan of Vargas. Who knows, when he dies, and Eurico takes the command, it will not happen. At all. Except the investment.

Vargas was an isolationist....

[Delsola]

I was thinking the Huns because it would give me some good RP. I could build the movement up and actually have an impact on Europan politics. Italy is practically under marshall law, and the Romanians are just one step away from full-on intervention. If you want, the movement could be weak and build up. Or I could play the Italians, it's up to you.

[The Akasha Colony]

Why would Brazil, which is barely capable of defending itself from an inevitable invasion by the Colombians, waste huge amounts of money on an adventure in China that is unlikely to ever succeed?

There is a reason why Brazil did not have a intercontinental empire in the 1940's. It is unlikely that Brazil's navy could withstand Argentina's much less lend any appreciable help against the Japanese. Brazil's arms manufacturing is extremely limited, most of Brazil's weapons are imports.

I must agree. It's one thing for the United States, with safe borders all around, to build bases abroad. Or for the French and British, who have colonial empires to protect and the wealth of a fully-developed European state to support them. Fully another for a nation that barely has a military and doesn't have any force-projection capability, as well as a government that isn't even interested in this sort of thing. The objective of the thread is not to play a nation as you would play it, or even to play as a nation, but as that nation would act given the persons who are in power. The leaders aren't supposed to be convenient name-plates to be sprinkled into dialogue, but have a real effect on policy based on their historical personality and policies, particularly dictators like Vargas.

I was thinking the Huns because it would give me some good RP. I could build the movement up and actually have an impact on Europan politics. Italy is practically under marshall law, and the Romanians are just one step away from full-on intervention. If you want, the movement could be weak and build up. Or I could play the Italians, it's up to you.

I guess I'll accept it for now and see where this goes. We might have some openings in the larger powers, I have to go through and see who's still around and interested.

[Delsola]

Just quickly (I know, I'm a pest) how many seats does Hungary have in Parliament, and what percentage does that correspond to?

[Altito Asmoro]

Fine then.

If that failed, I will stop it. And Vargas will be isolationist again.

[Alleniana]

Fine then.

If that failed, I will stop it. And Vargas will be isolationist again.

Noooo

The military aid would be odd, but I would like it but the investment seems legit

[The Akasha Colony]

Just quickly (I know, I'm a pest) how many seats does Hungary have in Parliament, and what percentage does that correspond to?

Don't have an exact number at the moment. Will figure it out and get back to you.

[Alleniana]

SO, we are about August 1939 or so, right?

[Altito Asmoro]

Fine then.

If that failed, I will stop it. And Vargas will be isolationist again.

Noooo

The military aid would be odd, but I would like it but the investment seems legit

But, Vargas is isolationist. Well, if this fruits, then...

[Keznov]

lol? DPC could stall Japan? A minor attack would provoke us into using the entire might we could upon you...to make a point if anything...which is more than a million.

[The Chartered Colonies of Old Dominion]

@Delsola:
Miklos Horthy wouldn't be leading the Hungarian revanchists since he is currently commander of the Kaiserliche Marine.

[Nightkill the Emperor]

This has attracted my interest. I'll see if I have the time.

[Delsola]

@Delsola:
Miklos Horthy wouldn't be leading the Hungarian revanchists since he is currently commander of the Kaiserliche Marine.

My mistake, I'll replace him with Ferenc Szálasi of the Arrow Cross