Excalibur Squadron OOC Thread

[Morrdh]

The P-51 looked sexier, had more kills, and got shot down less. Admittedly, the Thunderbolt was in service longer, but not by much.
The Thunderbolt was formidable, and had the ground-attack dimension that the P-51 lacked, but I think the Mustang was still the finest fighter aircraft America fielded during the War (and was a marvelous symbol of Allied cooperation at the same time).

The first Mustang Mk Is entered service in 1941 the first unit being 2 Squadron RAF. Due to poor high-altitude performance, the Mustangs were used by Army Co-operation Command, rather than Fighter Command, and were used for tactical reconnaissance and ground-attack duties.

[Goram]

I stand by my choice.

The P-51 looked sexier, had more kills, and got shot down less. Admittedly, the Thunderbolt was in service longer, but not by much.
The Thunderbolt was formidable, and had the ground-attack dimension that the P-51 lacked, but I think the Mustang was still the finest fighter aircraft America fielded during the War (and was a marvelous symbol of Allied cooperation at the same time).

This. The P-51 is the reason that the Allies were able to deny the Luftwaffe operational freedom in it's own airspace. In plain language, P-51 sweeps essentially handed the Allies air superiority in German air space. The Thunderbolt could never have accomplished that.

Korean war ratio was 2/1 for us.

Debatable. Depends who you read.

Something tells me Wikipedia is also not a very good source of information.

If it's referenced, to a decent source, it's good to go. It's not good practice to use Wikipedia, and include it in a bibliography. But that doesn't mean the information isn't accurate.

Last I checked, the P-51 was the perfect gentleman to escort the Memphis Belle on her 25 dance tour of Nazi-occupied Europe.

As far as I remember, the Belle operated in late 1942 to early 1943 - she'd likely have gone to Germany largely unescorted. Not that she spend very much time over Germany. Most of the Belle's trips were to France.

how about this: you and me go up in our respective planes, 10 bucks says that you run out of lead before I run out of aluminum and steel.

Tell that to the 3,500 odd Thunderbolts that didn't come back. You can have all the armour in the world, but you can still be killed. Relying on armour plate to save you, especially in a world where armour piercing cannon rounds exist, is a god awfully bad idea.

[Le-Quebec]

The first Mustang Mk Is entered service in 1941 the first unit being 2 Squadron RAF. Due to poor high-altitude performance, the Mustangs were used by Army Co-operation Command, rather than Fighter Command, and were used for tactical reconnaissance and ground-attack duties.

I believe that a leading reason leading to this shitstorm over the performance of the P-51 is of the stark contrast between the early and late war models; Tiger's probably defending the late war ones fitted with British RR Merlin engines, whilst Morrdh's source clearly involves the US Allison equipped early variants. The Allison fitted Mustangs struggled with their competitors, and thus that's why the people at North American eventually accepted a British recommendation of using the latter's RR Merlins, which had already proved themselves on the Hurricane, Spitfire, and Lancaster aircraft. It was with the late war variants that the P-51 started to shine and prove itself, it's larger fuel tank allowing it to traverse greater distances than the Spitfire, thus being able to fulfill the strategic need for a long-range escort fighter which allowed. . .

Tiger Kingdom:

. . . the Allies [to] hit Berlin with escorts, and actually gave the fuel capacity to not be restricted to just protecting and shepherding the bombers, but to actually hit and pursue that came up to challenge them, beyond keeping the heavies safe. . . The P-51 let the 8th Air Force take the aerial offensive over Germany, instead of just trying to survive, drop the bombs, and head home.

Tiger and GOram's point regarding the "hit and pursue" of German resistance has testimonies in that most of the Luftwaffe Me-262 jets were shot down while they slowed down to land as they returned to their airbases.

Regarding the current heat with the performance of various Allied escort fighters in Europe, I'm quite surprised that no yet mentioned the role of Lockheed's P-38, even though it was only commissioned as a stopgap for the Mustang and the bulk of which were sent to the Pacific theatre. Although perhaps the latter circumstance of which was fueled by the Lightning's high attrition rates in Europe; a skim on Wiki states that only the Italians viewed the Lightning as a worthy foe, with several of the highest German aces saying that the P-38's were relatively "easy to burn." I mean, when Adolf Galland demotes your twin-engine fighter alongside his side's own Bf-110, it's performance goes to show.

Edit: By the way, I responded in the Tempsford thread. 

[Kouralia]

Pretty much how I feel ITT when we do shit like this.

Except you don't break my leg then run past me going 'bwabwabwabwa'.

[United Kingdom of Poland]

The P-51 looked sexier, had more kills, and got shot down less. Admittedly, the Thunderbolt was in service longer, but not by much.
The Thunderbolt was formidable, and had the ground-attack dimension that the P-51 lacked, but I think the Mustang was still the finest fighter aircraft America fielded during the War (and was a marvelous symbol of Allied cooperation at the same time).

This. The P-51 is the reason that the Allies were able to deny the Luftwaffe operational freedom in it's own airspace. In plain language, P-51 sweeps essentially handed the Allies air superiority in German air space. The Thunderbolt could never have accomplished that.

Korean war ratio was 2/1 for us.

Debatable. Depends who you read.

Something tells me Wikipedia is also not a very good source of information.

If it's referenced, to a decent source, it's good to go. It's not good practice to use Wikipedia, and include it in a bibliography. But that doesn't mean the information isn't accurate.

Last I checked, the P-51 was the perfect gentleman to escort the Memphis Belle on her 25 dance tour of Nazi-occupied Europe.

As far as I remember, the Belle operated in late 1942 to early 1943 - she'd likely have gone to Germany largely unescorted. Not that she spend very much time over Germany. Most of the Belle's trips were to France.

how about this: you and me go up in our respective planes, 10 bucks says that you run out of lead before I run out of aluminum and steel.

Tell that to the 3,500 odd Thunderbolts that didn't come back. You can have all the armour in the world, but you can still be killed. Relying on armour plate to save you, especially in a world where armour piercing cannon rounds exist, is a god awfully bad idea.

that 3500 is from all causes including pilot error. no amount of armor is going to fix idiotic decisions. but lets kill this debate, its all about personal preferences.

[The balkens]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-u1zU0rVBE

oh my........

[Morrdh]

@Le-Quebec; Pretty much.

On a more general note, induction for new job done...first shift tomorrow.

[Antic Master Fegelein]

@Le-Quebec; Pretty much.

On a more general note, induction for new job done...first shift tomorrow.

is it that you were talking about a few months back?

[Morrdh]

@Le-Quebec; Pretty much.

On a more general note, induction for new job done...first shift tomorrow.

is it that you were talking about a few months back?

....No?

[Antic Master Fegelein]

is it that you were talking about a few months back?

....No?

ah, I thought I remember you talking about getting something so you can have a stay at home job?

[Morrdh]

....No?

ah, I thought I remember you talking about getting something so you can have a stay at home job?

Oh, probably that book thing I was on about.

Nah, just a proper job working at a cinema couple of weeks ago.

[Antic Master Fegelein]

ah, I thought I remember you talking about getting something so you can have a stay at home job?

Oh, probably that book thing I was on about.

Nah, just a proper job working at a cinema couple of weeks ago.

how is the project coming along?

[Morrdh]

Oh, probably that book thing I was on about.

Nah, just a proper job working at a cinema couple of weeks ago.

how is the project coming along?

Book 1 requires a little bit more work and £2,000 worth of artwork done.

Book 2 needs to be finished proofread, cover art down and then released.

[Antic Master Fegelein]

how is the project coming along?

Book 1 requires a little bit more work and £2,000 worth of artwork done.

Book 2 needs to be finished proofread, cover art down and then released.

sounds cool. anyway, I think you are interested in space stuff, right? that link to youtube is mainly towards you!

[Kassaran]

Just a quick thing before we also leave the P-47 vs. P-51 argument:

Republic P-47 "Thunderbolt"

---

Number Manufactured: 15,678
Number Lost: 3,499
Total Number of Sorties: 746,000 (approximately)
Air-to-Air Victories: 3,752 (approximately)
Air-to-Ground Victories: 169,000 (approximately)

North American Aviation P-51 "Mustang"

---

Number Manufactured: 15,000+ (Unspecified, but the 47 is known to of been made in higher numbers during the war)
Number Lost: 2,520
Total Number of Sorties: 213,873
Air-to-Air Victories: 4,950
Air-to-Ground Victories: (Unable to be found, estimated at just over 8,000)

Curtiss P-40 "Warhawk"

---

Number Manufactured: 13,738
Number Lost: 553
Total Number of Sorties: 67,059
Air-to-Air Victories: 521
Air-to-Ground Victories: (Unspecified)

North American P-38 "Lightning II"

---

Number Manufactured: 10,037
Number Lost: 1,758
Total Number of Sorties: 129,849
Air-to-Air Victories: 1,771
Air-to-Ground Victories: (unspecified, thought to be 749)

Bell P-39 "Airacobra"

---

Number Manufactured: 9,584
Number Lost: 107
Total Number of Sorties: 30,547
Air-to-Air Victories: (Unknown, but well into 4,000, perhaps 5,000)
Air-to-Ground Victories: (Unknown, but not as high as most think)

[The Tiger Kingdom]

So my internet shat itself out and died last night. Lots of posting from me later.

Bell P-39 "Airacobra"

---

Number Manufactured: 9,584
Number Lost: 107
Total Number of Sorties: 30,547
Air-to-Air Victories: (Unknown, but well into 4,000, perhaps 5,000)
Air-to-Ground Victories: (Unknown, but not as high as most think)

There's objectively no way those airacobra stats are right. A kill ratio of 45:1? We'd never have used any other aircraft.

[Antic Master Fegelein]

So my internet shat itself out and died last night. Lots of posting from me later.

Bell P-39 "Airacobra"

---

Number Manufactured: 9,584
Number Lost: 107
Total Number of Sorties: 30,547
Air-to-Air Victories: (Unknown, but well into 4,000, perhaps 5,000)
Air-to-Ground Victories: (Unknown, but not as high as most think)

There's objectively no way those airacobra stats are right. A kill ratio of 45:1? We'd never have used any other aircraft.

must be on all fronts, the Soviets used them I believe and so did the british?

[Len Hyet]

So my internet shat itself out and died last night. Lots of posting from me later.

Bell P-39 "Airacobra"

---

Number Manufactured: 9,584
Number Lost: 107
Total Number of Sorties: 30,547
Air-to-Air Victories: (Unknown, but well into 4,000, perhaps 5,000)
Air-to-Ground Victories: (Unknown, but not as high as most think)

There's objectively no way those airacobra stats are right. A kill ratio of 45:1? We'd never have used any other aircraft.

From the Wikipedia

but by the end of 1942, the P-39 units of the Fifth Air Force had claimed about 80 Japanese aircraft, with a similar number of P-39s lost. By any standard the Airacobra and its pilots held their ground against the Japanese. Fifth and Thirteenth Air Force P-39s did not score more aerial victories in the Solomons due to the aircraft's limited range and poor high altitude performance

So I think the ratio was probably closer to 1:1

[The Tiger Kingdom]

So my internet shat itself out and died last night. Lots of posting from me later.


There's objectively no way those airacobra stats are right. A kill ratio of 45:1? We'd never have used any other aircraft.

must be on all fronts, the Soviets used them I believe and so did the british?

There's no way the combined Allies and Soviets lost only 107 Airacobras/affiliated designs through the entire war.

[Antic Master Fegelein]

must be on all fronts, the Soviets used them I believe and so did the british?

There's no way the combined Allies and Soviets lost only 107 Airacobras/affiliated designs through the entire war.

I have trouble believing it too.

[Morrdh]

must be on all fronts, the Soviets used them I believe and so did the british?

There's no way the combined Allies and Soviets lost only 107 Airacobras/affiliated designs through the entire war.

IIRC weren't alot of Airacobras offloaded onto the Soviets because of the plane's center of gravity issues?

[The Tiger Kingdom]

There's no way the combined Allies and Soviets lost only 107 Airacobras/affiliated designs through the entire war.

IIRC weren't alot of Airacobras offloaded onto the Soviets because of the plane's center of gravity issues?

They were. I think that chart must be counting claimed Soviet kills (which are exaggerated, as most Sov war stats usually were) and excluding all their losses, as well as a vast number of Allied losses.

[Antic Master Fegelein]

IIRC weren't alot of Airacobras offloaded onto the Soviets because of the plane's center of gravity issues?

They were. I think that chart must be counting claimed Soviet kills (which are exaggerated, as most Sov war stats usually were) and excluding all their losses, as well as a vast number of Allied losses.

might be the case.

[Kassaran]

So my internet shat itself out and died last night. Lots of posting from me later.

Bell P-39 "Airacobra"

---

Number Manufactured: 9,584
Number Lost: 1,204
Total Number of Sorties: 30,547
Air-to-Air Victories: (Unknown, but well into 400, perhaps 500)
Air-to-Ground Victories: (Unknown, but not as high as most think)

There's objectively no way those airacobra stats are right. A kill ratio of 45:1? We'd never have used any other aircraft.

Yeah, added a Zero, sorry. Fixed. I was also was accounting for the Russians, also, fixed the loss ratio.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

So my internet shat itself out and died last night. Lots of posting from me later.


There's objectively no way those airacobra stats are right. A kill ratio of 45:1? We'd never have used any other aircraft.

Yeah, added a Zero, sorry. Fixed. I was also was accounting for the Russians, also, fixed the loss ratio.

That makes much more sense.