Battlestar Athene: The Survivors' Story (OOC, Open, BSG RP)

[Spetznaz Assault Teams]

The whole point of being a sniper is to get a headshot. Every time. Thats the only way to have a confirmed kill without walking up and inspecting the body. It's the only way to ensure that if a terrorist has a trigger on his bomb he has no residual strength to pull it. (Excluding dead mans switch of course).

Please. Why is that so hard to believe.

The 5.56mm NATO has a muzzle energy of 1450 joules. A 100-kilogram man running at 6 meters per second has an energy of 1500 joules. When you get shot by an M16, it is the equivelant of being flattened by a large man sprinting full-tilt.

You don't need to be shot in the head for a bullet to be fatal. If you shoot someone in the chest, it is hard to miss vital organs. Additionally, higher caliber bullets will very likely damage the spine from hydrostatic shock.

And no, snipers do not go for headshots: That is a very hard shot to make, and for the movies only.

At this point Spetz, I know you pulled it out of your ass.

Two words. Kevlar Vest.

Also, Snipers DO go for headshots, for the reasons I just stated. Tell me, what happens if you shoot a martyr vest? It explodes. That's a damn good reason to go for a headshot wouldn't you say?

[Strykla]

The 5.56mm NATO has a muzzle energy of 1450 joules. A 100-kilogram man running at 6 meters per second has an energy of 1500 joules. When you get shot by an M16, it is the equivelant of being flattened by a large man sprinting full-tilt.

You don't need to be shot in the head for a bullet to be fatal. If you shoot someone in the chest, it is hard to miss vital organs. Additionally, higher caliber bullets will very likely damage the spine from hydrostatic shock.

And no, snipers do not go for headshots: That is a very hard shot to make, and for the movies only.

At this point Spetz, I know you pulled it out of your ass.

Two words. Kevlar Vest.

Also, Snipers DO go for headshots, for the reasons I just stated. Tell me, what happens if you shoot a martyr vest? It explodes. That's a damn good reason to go for a headshot wouldn't you say?

The Interceptor body armor, standard body armor for today's US Army troops, is capable of stopping a 9mm Parabellum FMJ 426 m/s. With inserted plates, it will stop 7.62mm NATO. Even with these, however, it takes a fairly standard round to penetrate: Generally, if you're shot and wearing body armor, if it goes through, you're already dead, and if not, broken ribs and wind knocked out. You need a very good version of the Dragon Skin to stop .30-06 AP rounds.

Additionally, if the vests are constructed of RDX or C-4 based explosives, it takes a very specific detonator to go. Otherwise, you've got a load of very stable stuff. TNT, I believe, is similar. Using nitroglycerin-based explosives are when jarring it can explode.

[Spetznaz Assault Teams]

Two words. Kevlar Vest.

Also, Snipers DO go for headshots, for the reasons I just stated. Tell me, what happens if you shoot a martyr vest? It explodes. That's a damn good reason to go for a headshot wouldn't you say?

The Interceptor body armor, standard body armor for today's US Army troops, is capable of stopping a 9mm Parabellum FMJ 426 m/s. With inserted plates, it will stop 7.62mm NATO. Even with these, however, it takes a fairly standard round to penetrate: Generally, if you're shot and wearing body armor, if it goes through, you're already dead, and if not, broken ribs and wind knocked out. You need a very good version of the Dragon Skin to stop .30-06 AP rounds.

Additionally, if the vests are constructed of RDX or C-4 based explosives, it takes a very specific detonator to go. Otherwise, you've got a load of very stable stuff. TNT, I believe, is similar. Using nitroglycerin-based explosives are when jarring it can explode.

Can you tell the difference from a high grade stable C-4 based explosive and a highly unstable mold put together in a goat herd's shed who it's in a Martyr vest?

[Strykla]

The Interceptor body armor, standard body armor for today's US Army troops, is capable of stopping a 9mm Parabellum FMJ 426 m/s. With inserted plates, it will stop 7.62mm NATO. Even with these, however, it takes a fairly standard round to penetrate: Generally, if you're shot and wearing body armor, if it goes through, you're already dead, and if not, broken ribs and wind knocked out. You need a very good version of the Dragon Skin to stop .30-06 AP rounds.

Additionally, if the vests are constructed of RDX or C-4 based explosives, it takes a very specific detonator to go. Otherwise, you've got a load of very stable stuff. TNT, I believe, is similar. Using nitroglycerin-based explosives are when jarring it can explode.

Can you tell the difference from a high grade stable C-4 based explosive and a highly unstable mold put together in a goat herd's shed who it's in a Martyr vest?

Let's use your example: A man wearing a suicide vest is charging at me on open ground with the intent to blow himself up.

Let's suppose than I am a soldier in Afghanistan. I see this man charging at me. With every second I use trying to line up a head shot, potentially missing, and getting back on target, less distance is between us, and the more likely I am to die of overpressure or blast. Or, I could shoot him in the chest, risk the explosives detonating either from the bullet's impact or the terrorist hitting the button from reflex, but nevertheless have probably 15-20 meters at least in between me and the explosion. And don't try this with a Remy 700.

Remember, a human head isn't more than half a foot across, and shoulder-to-shoulder, most humans are four times that. Snipers typically shoot at distances of 1000-2000 meters. At those distances, hitting a man's head would be luck, and hitting a man would be just incredible skill, both counting all the variables involved.

[Spetznaz Assault Teams]

Can you tell the difference from a high grade stable C-4 based explosive and a highly unstable mold put together in a goat herd's shed who it's in a Martyr vest?

Let's use your example: A man wearing a suicide vest is charging at me on open ground with the intent to blow himself up.

Let's suppose than I am a soldier in Afghanistan. I see this man charging at me. With every second I use trying to line up a head shot, potentially missing, and getting back on target, less distance is between us, and the more likely I am to die of overpressure or blast. Or, I could shoot him in the chest, risk the explosives detonating either from the bullet's impact or the terrorist hitting the button from reflex, but nevertheless have probably 15-20 meters at least in between me and the explosion. And don't try this with a Remy 700.

Remember, a human head isn't more than half a foot across, and shoulder-to-shoulder, most humans are four times that. Snipers typically shoot at distances of 1000-2000 meters. At those distances, hitting a man's head would be luck, and hitting a man would be just incredible skill, both counting all the variables involved.

You're forgetting that this is a Sniper, not your average soldier. He is elevated, looking down on the target, and 9/10 times is not shooting at 1000 meters. That shot my friend, is for the movies. Yes, Recon Sniper shave to make the 1000 yard shot. They arent always shooting at 1000 yards however. This sniper sees a suicide bomber in a crowd, they love crowds, and so takes a head shot, as he is trained to do.

In hostage or other high risk situaions, snipers may take head shots to ensure an instant kill. The snipers aim for the "apricot", or the medulla oblongata, located inside the head, a part of the brain that controls involuntary movement that lies at the base of the skull. Some ballistics and neurological researchers have argued that severing the spinal cord at an area near the second cervical vertebra is actually achieved

[Trivval]

I am sorry, I'm stepping in here. Honestly, I don't care if you can call this anon powers of the internet, but I have done MOUT training, and let me tell you: fuck head shots.

First man identifies and engages targets, you keep moving. Second man will re-engage any suspicious targets as he goes through. MOUT (CQB, CQC, whatever the fuck you want to call it) is all about speed - unless, of course, you know that the area is suspicious (ie: BCIED, etc) and then you have to take time. That is extremely dangerous and risky, but it would be a decision for the commander on the ground.

The fact is the only time we've had to combat people in body armor lately is when insurgents get their hands on Surplus American equipment - or when they're on enough drugs that they will die anyway. People like that weren't engaged at close range often, due to the fact that you step around a corner and there's someone wearing friendly equipment and you're like: "Oh, he's a friendly." Then you realise he's wearing sandles and wielding Soviet Bloc arms as he runs past and down the road into a hiding spot. Nothing short of going cyclic into his chest would break that, and that would be your first reaction - after thinking he was a friendly.

The Chest is the biggest target, and that's what you're trained to aim for in a fast situation. You stop moving in CQB/CQC/MOUT and you're dead.

Call bullshit if you want, it's no skin off my back.

[Spetznaz Assault Teams]

I am sorry, I'm stepping in here. Honestly, I don't care if you can call this anon powers of the internet, but I have done MOUT training, and let me tell you: fuck head shots.

First man identifies and engages targets, you keep moving. Second man will re-engage any suspicious targets as he goes through. MOUT (CQB, CQC, whatever the fuck you want to call it) is all about speed - unless, of course, you know that the area is suspicious (ie: BCIED, etc) and then you have to take time. That is extremely dangerous and risky, but it would be a decision for the commander on the ground.

The fact is the only time we've had to combat people in body armor lately is when insurgents get their hands on Surplus American equipment - or when they're on enough drugs that they will die anyway. People like that weren't engaged at close range often, due to the fact that you step around a corner and there's someone wearing friendly equipment and you're like: "Oh, he's a friendly." Then you realise he's wearing sandles and wielding Soviet Bloc arms as he runs past and down the road into a hiding spot. Nothing short of going cyclic into his chest would break that, and that would be your first reaction - after thinking he was a friendly.

The Chest is the biggest target, and that's what you're trained to aim for in a fast situation. You stop moving in CQB/CQC/MOUT and you're dead.

Call bullshit if you want, it's no skin off my back.

I'm not calling bullshit on that because that is perfectly good reasoning for MOUT Tactics.

What I'm saying is a Sniper, that is a high precision shooter, will aim for the head, or other seemingly "impossible" to hit target.

I'm saying that in the CIC, which is what this whole thing started about, a Sniper rifle will be able to get consistent head shots on the Centurions. If you don't believe me, take a look at this.

in one event in 2007 in Marseille, a GIPN sniper took a shot from 80 m (87 yd) at the pistol of a policeman threatening to commit suicide, destroying the weapon and preventing him from killing himself.

Tell me. Which is bigger, a head or a pistol?

The CIC is not 87 yards long, and so I assume that a headshot, while not easy, for a trained Sniper will not be overly difficult.

[Strykla]

I am sorry, I'm stepping in here. Honestly, I don't care if you can call this anon powers of the internet, but I have done MOUT training, and let me tell you: fuck head shots.

First man identifies and engages targets, you keep moving. Second man will re-engage any suspicious targets as he goes through. MOUT (CQB, CQC, whatever the fuck you want to call it) is all about speed - unless, of course, you know that the area is suspicious (ie: BCIED, etc) and then you have to take time. That is extremely dangerous and risky, but it would be a decision for the commander on the ground.

The fact is the only time we've had to combat people in body armor lately is when insurgents get their hands on Surplus American equipment - or when they're on enough drugs that they will die anyway. People like that weren't engaged at close range often, due to the fact that you step around a corner and there's someone wearing friendly equipment and you're like: "Oh, he's a friendly." Then you realise he's wearing sandles and wielding Soviet Bloc arms as he runs past and down the road into a hiding spot. Nothing short of going cyclic into his chest would break that, and that would be your first reaction - after thinking he was a friendly.

The Chest is the biggest target, and that's what you're trained to aim for in a fast situation. You stop moving in CQB/CQC/MOUT and you're dead.

Call bullshit if you want, it's no skin off my back.

I'm not calling bullshit on that because that is perfectly good reasoning for MOUT Tactics.

What I'm saying is a Sniper, that is a high precision shooter, will aim for the head, or other seemingly "impossible" to hit target.

I'm saying that in the CIC, which is what this whole thing started about, a Sniper rifle will be able to get consistent head shots on the Centurions. If you don't believe me, take a look at this.

in one event in 2007 in Marseille, a GIPN sniper took a shot from 80 m (87 yd) at the pistol of a policeman threatening to commit suicide, destroying the weapon and preventing him from killing himself.

Tell me. Which is bigger, a head or a pistol?

The CIC is not 87 yards long, and so I assume that a headshot, while not easy, for a trained Sniper will not be overly difficult.

In this case, the pistol wasn't likely to be moving that much. Like what Trivval said, speed is everything. Very few shooters are going to be able to place a single shot on a target no more than half a foot wide, probably two or three inches larger with the case of a Centurion, when it is bobbing around in all the violent motions of a sprint(or, presumably, a breach). You may imagine it is easy, but it really is not.

Plus, link or you also pulled that quote out of your ass.

I'm going to take this to the military realism thread so we can stop derailing this one.

[Spetznaz Assault Teams]

I'm not calling bullshit on that because that is perfectly good reasoning for MOUT Tactics.

What I'm saying is a Sniper, that is a high precision shooter, will aim for the head, or other seemingly "impossible" to hit target.

I'm saying that in the CIC, which is what this whole thing started about, a Sniper rifle will be able to get consistent head shots on the Centurions. If you don't believe me, take a look at this.



Tell me. Which is bigger, a head or a pistol?

The CIC is not 87 yards long, and so I assume that a headshot, while not easy, for a trained Sniper will not be overly difficult.

In this case, the pistol wasn't likely to be moving that much. Like what Trivval said, speed is everything. Very few shooters are going to be able to place a single shot on a target no more than half a foot wide, probably two or three inches larger with the case of a Centurion, when it is bobbing around in all the violent motions of a sprint(or, presumably, a breach). You may imagine it is easy, but it really is not.

Plus, link or you also pulled that quote out of your ass.

I'm going to take this to the military realism thread so we can stop derailing this one.

Here.
Here.
and here.

I don't pull facts out of my ass. Ever.

[Anemos Major]

In this case, the pistol wasn't likely to be moving that much. Like what Trivval said, speed is everything. Very few shooters are going to be able to place a single shot on a target no more than half a foot wide, probably two or three inches larger with the case of a Centurion, when it is bobbing around in all the violent motions of a sprint(or, presumably, a breach). You may imagine it is easy, but it really is not.

Plus, link or you also pulled that quote out of your ass.

I'm going to take this to the military realism thread so we can stop derailing this one.

Here.
Here.
and here.

I don't pull facts out of my ass. Ever.

Just caught sight of this. You *are* pulling stuff out of your arse, I'm afraid. Police sharpshooters have a tendency to go for heads to minimise risk, but hostage situations are a very different beast to military sniping. In that sort of situation, sharpshooters tend to be operating at far longer ranges, and going for headshots is generally inadvisable given that simple fact. With no hostages or the like and longer ranges, snipers go for centre-of-mass shots more often than not; for one, most snipers in the field today don't tend to engage targets with armour thick enough to withstand rounds like the .338 Lapua Magnum.

In a close range combat situation with a sniper rifle and no hostages, it's a no brainer. Half the engagement depends on response speed, and armour isn't going to protect you from a full power rifle at ranges like that (nor do you have restrictive RoE, like a cop might). You aim, you fire, preferably for the centre of mass. Easy.

[San Monteriano]

Can we all keep on topic, please?

[Spetznaz Assault Teams]

Here.
Here.
and here.

I don't pull facts out of my ass. Ever.

Just caught sight of this. You *are* pulling stuff out of your arse, I'm afraid. Police sharpshooters have a tendency to go for heads to minimise risk, but hostage situations are a very different beast to military sniping. In that sort of situation, sharpshooters tend to be operating at far longer ranges, and going for headshots is generally inadvisable given that simple fact. With no hostages or the like and longer ranges, snipers go for centre-of-mass shots more often than not; for one, most snipers in the field today don't tend to engage targets with armour thick enough to withstand rounds like the .338 Lapua Magnum.

In a close range combat situation with a sniper rifle and no hostages, it's a no brainer. Half the engagement depends on response speed, and armour isn't going to protect you from a full power rifle at ranges like that (nor do you have restrictive RoE, like a cop might). You aim, you fire, preferably for the centre of mass. Easy.

And we're fighting metal cans. Big metal cans. Thick metal cans. That shoot back.
Thus, the Headshot, at a range of across the CIC, is perfectly reasonable.

[San Monteriano]

[Spetznaz Assault Teams]

:palm:

That is on topic! Cylons are big metal cans that shoot back!

[San Monteriano]

:palm:

That is on topic! Cylons are big metal cans that shoot back!

Also, Sitalbi: good thinking on the Raptor thing; you can be the one to report in the Picon Express in the distance, by that time Alex should be back at the CIC.

[Spetznaz Assault Teams]

That is on topic! Cylons are big metal cans that shoot back!

Also, Sitalbi: good thinking on the Raptor thing; you can be the one to report in the Picon Express in the distance, by that time Alex should be back at the CIC.

*is frightened by OP*

[Sitalbi]

Can I just steal the Raptor? I want to get going, and since there is no response...

[San Monteriano]

Can I just steal the Raptor? I want to get going, and since there is no response...

If you want your character to be court martial-ed and held indefinitely in the ship's Brig, then feel free to.

[Sitalbi]

Can I just steal the Raptor? I want to get going, and since there is no response...

If you want your character to be court martial-ed and held indefinitely in the ship's Brig, then feel free to.

Take it back... Now when will Lut get here... My character is still bandaged, and hopefully those engineers take out the avionics package. Also I see Raptors armed with missiles acting as interceptor platforms...

[Strykla]

I'll just keep quiet until there's something the Master at Arms can do....

[San Monteriano]

I'll just keep quiet until there's something the Master at Arms can do....

I have something in store for the Master at Arms, don't worry; your role will be prevalent in the near future, especially when we start receiving civilians aboard the Athene; I'm planning secret investigations, conspiracies and crises which will demand your attention, do not worry, there will be a role for everyone. You could create a second Colonial character if you're feeling a bit neglected with your current role; having two roles might be good, as long as you could manage them? If you wish to do so, just create another app'.

I'll TG you in a bit with a task for the Master at Arms, if you wish?

[Strykla]

I'll just keep quiet until there's something the Master at Arms can do....

I have something in store for the Master at Arms, don't worry; your role will be prevalent in the near future, especially when we start receiving civilians aboard the Athene; I'm planning secret investigations, conspiracies and crises which will demand your attention, do not worry, there will be a role for everyone. You could create a second Colonial character if you're feeling a bit neglected with your current role; having two roles might be good, as long as you could manage them? If you wish to do so, just create another app'.

I'll TG you in a bit with a task for the Master at Arms, if you wish?

Huzzah! Stopping conspiracies and getting free reign to airlock people! WHEEEEE!

And have you decided who's getting the position of XO?

[Spetznaz Assault Teams]

I have something in store for the Master at Arms, don't worry; your role will be prevalent in the near future, especially when we start receiving civilians aboard the Athene; I'm planning secret investigations, conspiracies and crises which will demand your attention, do not worry, there will be a role for everyone. You could create a second Colonial character if you're feeling a bit neglected with your current role; having two roles might be good, as long as you could manage them? If you wish to do so, just create another app'.

I'll TG you in a bit with a task for the Master at Arms, if you wish?

Huzzah! Stopping conspiracies and getting free reign to airlock people! WHEEEEE!

And have you decided who's getting the position of XO?

You get free reign to airlock people?!

Lucky bastard

[Trivval]

Okay, sorry to bring this back up. YOu guys all have a chat while I'm sleeping. D:<

In regards to Cylons, why would they have all their major systems in their head rather than in their chest, behind all the armor. Food for thought, or whatever. Could lead to an interesting situation.

Please note that I have a continued intrest in this RP, and as soon as I free up enough time I'll join in.

[Sitalbi]

Can I assume I get the Raptor so as to continue?