New Civilizations III ( OOC, Always Open )

[Orostan]

You mean more people that will rely on Luther's group than the Legion? Cool, spread the influence, make the corruption! Plant the seeds of conversion!

Not quite. This is an incredibly large deployment for China and the war against the Yue is going to turn into something else quickly. A number of Yue tribes will surrender to the Chinese when they take Jizhou, and there will be a small "Yue Republic" in the north that's basically a Chinese puppet state. There is going to be a low-level war there for years though between the Chinese and the tribes that came over to their side and the surviving Yue empire, which has begun to look more like an empire and not a tribal confederacy due to the war.

Migration is a powerful thing

* taps nose * very good sax.

And would anyone happen to know what probably forced those migrations?

climate change?

[Ralnis]

Well, the destruction of the Yue has just become more openings for tribal migrations. If that's what I get Joohan's idea.

[Joohan]

Yes, yes you're all right.

Any how. A lot of the native peoples who used to live in China are getting the sudden idea that, " hey, this place isn't really worth living in anymore. Genocide, war, our tribute is getting got - we should probably move while we're still riding high on the stuff we looted. "

Orostan, you wanted a second npc civilization to border you - well i've got great new, you're getting one! The Yue empire? No no no no - the YuQin confederacy! You'll have a new event incoming soon enough - imagine the Chinese version of the Angles and Saxons.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Yes, yes you're all right.

Wow, here I was totally going out on a limb with the Black Ships. The more you know! I look forward to YuQin Black Ships.

[Joohan]

Yes, yes you're all right.

Wow, here I was totally going out on a limb with the Black Ships. The more you know! I look forward to YuQin Black Ships.

Except you - quiet. You were like a thousand years early

Edit: still gotta get my post up

[Orostan]

Yes, yes you're all right.

Any how. A lot of the native peoples who used to live in China are getting the sudden idea that, " hey, this place isn't really worth living in anymore. Genocide, war, our tribute is getting got - we should probably move while we're still riding high on the stuff we looted. "

Orostan, you wanted a second npc civilization to border you - well i've got great new, you're getting one! The Yue empire? No no no no - the YuQin confederacy! You'll have a new event incoming soon enough - imagine the Chinese version of the Angles and Saxons.

Define "native people's". If you are talking about the bandit tribes, them leaving is a good thing and I was thinking of sending a few of them in the direction of tibet for you.

Also, wouldn't this create migration away form China rather than into it? Would a Yuqin confederacy not want to get out of Chinese territory and build their own empire in the south where the Chinese won't go?

[Joohan]

Define "native people's".

The dudes who live in your claimed territory rn.

them leaving is a good thing

Well, leaving after having raided and stole a bunch of your stuff while your legions were off fighting other dudes.

and I was thinking of sending a few of them in the direction of tibet for you.

They would literally die out there, or, more likely, just stop in Sichuan.

Also, wouldn't this create migration away form China rather than into it?

Yes

Would a Yuqin confederacy not want to get out of Chinese territory and build their own empire in the south where the Chinese won't go?

Patience young grasshopper. As winter turns to spring, so the warmth of time shall melt away the snow and shadow of our uncertain future.

[Ralnis]

I'm too small for any of this stuff. But it's cool to see a new person to corrupt.

[Orostan]

Define "native people's".

The dudes who live in your claimed territory rn.

them leaving is a good thing

Well, leaving after having raided and stole a bunch of your stuff while your legions were off fighting other dudes.

and I was thinking of sending a few of them in the direction of tibet for you.

They would literally die out there, or, more likely, just stop in Sichuan.

Also, wouldn't this create migration away form China rather than into it?

Yes

Would a Yuqin confederacy not want to get out of Chinese territory and build their own empire in the south where the Chinese won't go?

Patience young grasshopper. As winter turns to spring, so the warmth of time shall melt away the snow and shadow of our uncertain future.

1) only one of my legions is fighting other dudes, and they're doing after they beat up the bandits a bunch.

2) They would not have been able to make off with much - the real cost of the war would have been a significant loss in agricultural production.

3) Then they could stop there - they'd be interesting people for both you or Holly to talk to!

4) good

5) "My ancestors are smiling upon me bandit, can you say the same?"

[Orostan]

also i posted about the war with the Yue. Chinese provincial troops go home and the army begins the last stage of the campaign. The Yue Republic in the north that's going to come of this is going to be have some very interesting internal politics, where on one hand they want China's iron but on the other don't want the obligations that come with being associated with China.

[Ralnis]

"My ancestors are smiling upon me bandit, can you say the same?"

Luther post-Bandit Wars looking at a captured Central Government Commander: "Yes. yes I can."

[Orostan]

"My ancestors are smiling upon me bandit, can you say the same?"

Luther post-Bandit Wars looking at a captured Central Government Commander: "Yes. yes I can."

post-bandit wars China will be an interesting place. The old village based communities in large parts of China will have dissolved into town or city based communities and Qin and Jin provinces are going to make a name for themselves as especially industrial parts of China because of that. It will also magnify the Chinese desire to claim foreign resources and expand. Maybe ten or so years down the line we can have a war where several states around China make a coalition to attack China or something in what would probably be the largest war in history up to that point if Joohan wants to keep the apocalyptic crisis event style for China going.

[Ralnis]

Luther post-Bandit Wars looking at a captured Central Government Commander: "Yes. yes I can."

post-bandit wars China will be an interesting place. The old village based communities in large parts of China will have dissolved into town or city based communities and Qin and Jin provinces are going to make a name for themselves as especially industrial parts of China because of that. It will also magnify the Chinese desire to claim foreign resources and expand. Maybe ten or so years down the line we can have a war where several states around China make a coalition to attack China or something in what would probably be the largest war in history up to that point if Joohan wants to keep the apocalyptic crisis event style for China going.

Would China even have the resources for those reforms?

[Orostan]

post-bandit wars China will be an interesting place. The old village based communities in large parts of China will have dissolved into town or city based communities and Qin and Jin provinces are going to make a name for themselves as especially industrial parts of China because of that. It will also magnify the Chinese desire to claim foreign resources and expand. Maybe ten or so years down the line we can have a war where several states around China make a coalition to attack China or something in what would probably be the largest war in history up to that point if Joohan wants to keep the apocalyptic crisis event style for China going.

Would China even have the resources for those reforms?

Agricultural productivity is going to be improving at a good rate in most of China, and the consolidation of villages into farming towns is a big reason why. Every new town frees up new people for non-agricultural work and the larger the town the more productive its agriculture is likely to be.

A lot of the people who are neutral in this war are also going to migrate into Chinese towns and cities because of the perceived lack of safety in the villages. I will probably have recovered my losses and then some more soon after the war is over.

By the way, has Luther ever visited Luoyang or one of the big cities on the yellow river?

[Joohan]

also i posted about the war with the Yue. Chinese provincial troops go home and the army begins the last stage of the campaign. The Yue Republic in the north that's going to come of this is going to be have some very interesting internal politics, where on one hand they want China's iron but on the other don't want the obligations that come with being associated with China.

Yeah, that new post i'm not buying.

Why on earth would the Yue surrender? They have literally every advantage. China is going through a massive rebellion right now, and her supply lines are shakey at best. They literally just have to wait a week and pan's army will be forced to return to the Homefront.

Or they stay there, get stranded from their supply source, and are annihalated by a superior native force who know the land better.

[Orostan]

also i posted about the war with the Yue. Chinese provincial troops go home and the army begins the last stage of the campaign. The Yue Republic in the north that's going to come of this is going to be have some very interesting internal politics, where on one hand they want China's iron but on the other don't want the obligations that come with being associated with China.

Yeah, that new post i'm not buying.

Why on earth would the Yue surrender? They have literally every advantage. China is going through a massive rebellion right now, and her supply lines are shakey at best. They literally just have to wait a week and pan's army will be forced to return to the Homefront.

Or they stay there, get stranded from their supply source, and are annihalated by a superior native force who know the land better.

The Yue aren't surrendering - only some of them are and they're doing it with conditions that benefit them. Why fight an experienced Chinese army when you can get them to take your neighbors land for you? Right now is no time to attack China and they know it - any attack will cause a large response because of that rebellion!

This war is hundreds of miles away from the Qin and Jin provinces where the bandit wars are concentrated. There is no reason for China to have difficult supply lines here and there is also no reason why Pan would have to leave the region. Besides that the campaign never even intended to get a bunch of Yue tribes to work with China - the plan was always to beat them up and go home. Pan is going to get a lot of criticism for bringing on some new problem to deal with while China is already having issues with its other problems.

[Ralnis]

I thought the War was all over? I even said in my post that Pan Province was besieged by both the Bandits and the southern hill tribes with people like Luther being more commonplace and the provincial militias are using them as support.

[Suriyanakhon]

Question for Ralnis and Orostan -

Do you know why France is no longer a Celtic nation, but instead are the descendants of Germanic peoples?

Uh, the French were no longer a Celtic nation well before the Germanic tribes invaded because of centuries of Gallo-Roman admixture, but it's also unlikely that the vast majority are descended from the Franks or Visigoths to a significant degree (unless they just started putting everyone to the sword, which didn't happen).

[Orostan]

I thought the War was all over? I even said in my post that Pan Province was besieged by both the Bandits and the southern hill tribes with people like Luther being more commonplace and the provincial militias are using them as support.

The war isn't ending for at least a year or two more, but the period where it was most intense has already passed.

[Ralnis]

A big rebellion that is across every known province is defeated within the first few months? I don't know, I think that's underestimating the scale of what happened to China. I think there would be more problems with local fighters being more conscripted or going rogue for themselves or for China.

I don't know.

[Orostan]

A big rebellion that is across every known province is defeated within the first few months? I don't know, I think that's underestimating the scale of what happened to China. I think there would be more problems with local fighters being more conscripted or going rogue for themselves or for China.

I don't know.

The rebellion is taking place in two provinces and the first two months are the period where the most casualties per day have occurred and where the most intense fighting was. The only large battle happened during this time, but for the next few years there will be constant fighting at variable intensities around the country but mostly in the western Qin and Jin provinces. Fighting is likely only to end when the bandit groups leave Chinese territory or are destroyed. There will be intermittent conflict for ten years or so after that.

[Saxony-Brandenburg]

Question for Ralnis and Orostan -

Do you know why France is no longer a Celtic nation, but instead are the descendants of Germanic peoples?

Uh, the French were no longer a Celtic nation well before the Germanic tribes invaded because of centuries of Gallo-Roman admixture, but it's also unlikely that the vast majority are descended from the Franks or Visigoths to a significant degree (unless they just started putting everyone to the sword, which didn't happen).

Eh. I think we can wager a massive shift occurred during the great migrations just due to the amount of people that came into the region. Sure, the Germanic populations integrated into roman-Celtic locals, but they seriously began to absorb them I'd wager. Just look at the Frankish kingdom, who were originally from what? The Netherlands? And became one of the largest empires of the time and region.

[Ralnis]

A big rebellion that is across every known province is defeated within the first few months? I don't know, I think that's underestimating the scale of what happened to China. I think there would be more problems with local fighters being more conscripted or going rogue for themselves or for China.

I don't know.

The rebellion is taking place in two provinces and the first two months are the period where the most casualties per day have occurred and where the most intense fighting was. The only large battle happened during this time, but for the next few years there will be constant fighting at variable intensities around the country but mostly in the western Qin and Jin provinces. Fighting is likely only to end when the bandit groups leave Chinese territory or are destroyed. There will be intermittent conflict for ten years or so after that.

I could've sworn Joohan said every province got an equal amount of problems and it was really bad and massive that you can't just smash them all in a few battles across two provinces.

[Orostan]

The rebellion is taking place in two provinces and the first two months are the period where the most casualties per day have occurred and where the most intense fighting was. The only large battle happened during this time, but for the next few years there will be constant fighting at variable intensities around the country but mostly in the western Qin and Jin provinces. Fighting is likely only to end when the bandit groups leave Chinese territory or are destroyed. There will be intermittent conflict for ten years or so after that.

I could've sworn Joohan said every province got an equal amount of problems and it was really bad and massive that you can't just smash them all in a few battles across two provinces.

He mentioned it was normal everywhere but he mentioned the west specifically, so I had most of the fighting take place in the west. I figure that the west makes a lot of sense for a war like this too, as the north and center parts of China are better integrated and probably wouldn't have such bad problems with this. They also suffered a revolt seven years ago that would have changed the way those provinces were run and made the development of this type of issue much more difficult. There's also a legion there in the north.

The south meanwhile because of the terrain would be less integrated and have a higher military presence, which also makes a tribute system for villages and tribes less likely to develop while raiding from outside China is more common. The west meanwhile has not suffered a major revolt and has been doing rampant town building and urbanization - I even posted specifically about Qin province several times. The terrain there is also difficult but not as bad as the south and it makes sense that the bandits would be strongest there - China has good relations with its neighbors on that side of its empire and would have no reason to regularly put a legion there or have a strong military presence along that border.

[Orostan]

There would absolutely be civil unrest around China but in some parts of the country this would result in what are basically riots that can be dealt with by a town militia or there would only be disturbances in some of the smaller towns that are less well defended. Chinese provincial militias can deal with most of what is happening and this is chiefly a rural war.

In the future I want tension between a rural population in China's interior that was basically integrated into the proper economy by mistake and a town and city population that benefited greatly from the new MPS rules that allowed them to stop paying tribute to that rural population. As I said before, the bandit war will have an effect on all of China but the real fighting will be limited to only a few provinces.