Why do liberals call it 'fair'?

[Ixzara]

What exactly did the owner do aside from own the machinery? Their labor is minimal whereas the worker's is the majority. THIS is the issue.

Not exactly true. The factory owner has to manage his business, the factory owner has adjust the output, and the supplies.

However, it is much more strenuous and demanding to do the physical labor which is the assembly portion, than it is to regulate output and input. That is why many factory managers happen to be promoted from the floor. He/She is someone that knows what it is like to be on the floor, and someone that the factory workers can relate to, and vice versa.

Still not exactly true. The owners (and often times many managers) have to make tough decisions, sometimes under stress, which could affect hundreds of lives. We can all agree that the President of the US doesn't have a physically demanding job, yet it is demanding and strenuous.

Still, the president has a guaranteed job (Unless he gets impeached). The factory worker does not, whilst the manager may not be guaranteed either, but he has a lower chance of being laid off than his subordinates. Factories are notorious for laying off 3 people, for just the sake of one manager.

[Monocrat]

What exactly did the owner do aside from own the machinery? Their labor is minimal whereas the worker's is the majority. THIS is the issue.

Not exactly true. The factory owner has to manage his business, the factory owner has adjust the output, and the supplies.

However, it is much more strenuous and demanding to do the physical labor which is the assembly portion, than it is to regulate output and input. That is why many factory managers happen to be promoted from the floor. He/She is someone that knows what it is like to be on the floor, and someone that the factory workers can relate to, and vice versa.

Still not exactly true. The owners (and often times many managers) have to make tough decisions, sometimes under stress, which could affect hundreds of lives. We can all agree that the President of the US doesn't have a physically demanding job, yet it is demanding and strenuous.

We shouldn't argue who should make what - we should talk about who should be able to do what, and I believe that everyone should be able to live in stability and security.

[Concordeia]

Since we're on the subject of wealth distribution, I think some of you might be interested in this article.

[url]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit[/url]

OOC: This is my first post on NS using the internet on my Nintendo Wii! XD

[Dinosians]

I'll just say this now:

I don't want any of my money going to someone who is too lazy to stop playing Modern Warfare 2 on their Xbox. Don't anyone try to deny it, that is exactly what will and is happening. If people want money they should be like the rest of us and get a job. That would solve half of our unemployment problems right there.

[Uiri]

1. In which case, you have made a good step towards better general welfare. As for financial security and stability, living from paycheck to paycheck and having to take odd jobs to pay the rent is not a stable or secure situation; it is easily disrupted. For example, a non-voluntary furlough could result in eviction for a person of less than normal means, whereas for a middle-class person it might merely mean dipping into a rainy day fund, which the destitute do not have, for the most part.

2. And you chose the age of 60 (I assume) because that, to you, is an age when most people are still in their physical prime. However, as you have a significant amount of free time and computer access (otherwise you would not be on these forums), I assume that when you think of age 60, you think of middle-class people who have had a variety of medical treatments to assure their graceful aging. Things may be different in Canada, but in the US not everybody receives these treatments. Also, you have addressed only one of my possible scenarios.

1. OK, so this is bad why? If people want to stop living from paycheck to paycheck they need to move up in their jobs. It's as simple as that - over time people's wages increase and not just because of cost of living but because they've been in their jobs longer. The fact of the matter is that some people aren't smart enough to get a decent job. That's the way life is.

2. Way, way, way off. I chose the age of 60 because that's probably the earliest someone can retire in Canada. Therefore they should be working up until they are 60, which also supports my opinion that people's parents should still be working when they go off to university because I don't expect people over the age of 40 to be having children. What other scenarios were there?

We shouldn't argue who should make what - we should talk about who should be able to do what, and I believe that everyone should be able to live in stability and security.

So in other words you're a communist. If you are willing to give a little bit of your liberty in order for more security, quite frankly you deserve neither to paraphrase Benjamin Franklin. The fact of the matter is that communism has been tried, modified and tried again but it isn't possible to escape the fact that people value freedom over income equality. I would rather a 1 in 100 shot of being a lot better off than a 1 in 1 shot of being the same financially as everyone else. Do you have some kind of understanding of how the economy works?

[Concordeia]

You know, I bet that atleast 90% of the problems of poverty could be solved if there we had a basic income fund and free education.

[Dinosians]

Urgent News flash: We do have free education, it still doesn't help.

[Concordeia]

Urgent News flash: We do have free education, it still doesn't help.

Does that include college?

[Concordeia]

Didn't think so.

[Dinosians]

Actually depends on the college. and where you go for college.

[Sierra Systems]

I'm actually very surprised that more of the lower class don't choose the military as a way out. As best I recall from back when I tried to enlist, the majority of recruits are like myself, lower to middle middle class. For me, the military was where I wanted to go in life(didn't work out, I'm 4F, anywho...) and it seemed like a very good way out. Why the hell would you not take it? I mean, there are something like ten times as many clerks, cooks, musicians, and radiomen as there are honest to god soldiers. And if you're like most in the lower income brackets(skilled or semi-skilled labor, like me), then you probably have a high degree of mechanical aptitude, and can waste the ASVAB(98, almost maxxed it).

Barring your desire to enlist(somewhat understandable, I guess), most people could find a trade. I picked HVAC, because it pays a ton, teaches you what amounts to THREE skilled trades, and was alot easier than carpentry(did that for awhile too). I started totally untrained as an ASSISTANT, not even an apprentice, at $13 an hour. That's pretty damn good for what amounts to being a paid education. Then, you get your CFC license, and you get a raise. You get your welding license, and you get a raise. You get a few more certifications and take your journeymans test, and suddenly you're making twenty five dollars an hour with overtime out the ass when you're on call(paid portal to portal, minimum four hours a call). Electricians are nearly as good, same for plumbers, cable TV(some of that's piece work, but that sucks a fat one), security systems... I actually lost my job when the economy tanked back in 07. Got by taking on more skilled work till January 08. The warehouse job I'm in now, I've been there two years and I'm making twelve dollars an hour doing entirely unskilled labor. Starters are making eleven. I'm looking at a promotion right now that could nearly double my monthly pay, and dramatically increase my benefits, for LESS manual labor. I have a highschool diploma that I earned in SUMMER SCHOOL because I gave up after I couldn't enlist(and some other shit, long story there. There was a girl involved, thank God it ended when it did).

I find it very hard to believe that there isn't work out there. We're hiring. Maybe hiring more if I get promoted. It's hard work, but it's work, and it pays. I have found more often in my admittedly short time out of highschool(a mere four years) that a lack of willingness to work, and I mean honest to God WORK is much more common than a disability. My grandparents are disabled, and they could still work(ish, Walmart isn't the best, but anybody can do it, and they're always hiring).

My point is thus. Opportunities abound. The economy is coming back around. I can see it coming the same way I saw the crash before it happened. If you won't work, and won't enlist, at least have the decency to die quietly in a corner well away from me, where I won't have to clean up the mess.

[Dinosians]

I'm actually very surprised that more of the lower class don't choose the military as a way out. As best I recall from back when I tried to enlist, the majority of recruits are like myself, lower to middle middle class. For me, the military was where I wanted to go in life(didn't work out, I'm 4F, anywho...) and it seemed like a very good way out. Why the hell would you not take it? I mean, there are something like ten times as many clerks, cooks, musicians, and radiomen as there are honest to god soldiers. And if you're like most in the lower income brackets(skilled or semi-skilled labor, like me), then you probably have a high degree of mechanical aptitude, and can waste the ASVAB(98, almost maxxed it).

Barring your desire to enlist(somewhat understandable, I guess), most people could find a trade. I picked HVAC, because it pays a ton, teaches you what amounts to THREE skilled trades, and was alot easier than carpentry(did that for awhile too). I started totally untrained as an ASSISTANT, not even an apprentice, at $13 an hour. That's pretty damn good for what amounts to being a paid education. Then, you get your CFC license, and you get a raise. You get your welding license, and you get a raise. You get a few more certifications and take your journeymans test, and suddenly you're making twenty five dollars an hour with overtime out the ass when you're on call(paid portal to portal, minimum four hours a call). Electricians are nearly as good, same for plumbers, cable TV(some of that's piece work, but that sucks a fat one), security systems... I actually lost my job when the economy tanked back in 07. Got by taking on more skilled work till January 08. The warehouse job I'm in now, I've been there two years and I'm making twelve dollars an hour doing entirely unskilled labor. Starters are making eleven. I'm looking at a promotion right now that could nearly double my monthly pay, and dramatically increase my benefits, for LESS manual labor. I have a highschool diploma that I earned in SUMMER SCHOOL because I gave up after I couldn't enlist(and some other shit, long story there. There was a girl involved, thank God it ended when it did).

I find it very hard to believe that there isn't work out there. We're hiring. Maybe hiring more if I get promoted. It's hard work, but it's work, and it pays. I have found more often in my admittedly short time out of highschool(a mere four years) that a lack of willingness to work, and I mean honest to God WORK is much more common than a disability. My grandparents are disabled, and they could still work(ish, Walmart isn't the best, but anybody can do it, and they're always hiring).

My point is thus. Opportunities abound. The economy is coming back around. I can see it coming the same way I saw the crash before it happened. If you won't work, and won't enlist, at least have the decency to die quietly in a corner well away from me, where I won't have to clean up the mess.

You sir are the kind of person who needs to run for a Seat in the senate. YOu are like, the prime example of what people NEED to do, instead of sitting around taking other people's money.

[Concordeia]

Okay then, if distributive policies like basic income funds are so unfair and bad, why does Alaska have such a program?

[Sierra Systems]

Okay then, if distributive policies like basic income funds are so unfair and bad, why does Alaska have such a program?

So that people will live there. It's kind of out BEYOND bumfuck nowhere.

[Concordeia]

That's a bullshit answer if I've ever heard one. Can't you give me a REAL answer??

[Sierra Systems]

That's a bullshit answer if I've ever heard one. Can't you give me a REAL answer??

That was a real answer. It was a bit of a bullshit question.

Very well then...

Being that Alaska is the ONLY state I know of to have one, and given the generally inhospitable nature of the majority of the state, combined with the scarcity of employment and general lack of population density, the most probable reason is that you have to pay people to live there. I mean, I hunt, and it would be pretty cool to have a seven foot polar bear standing by my front door(my wife says no...) I have absolutely no desire to ever live in Alaska.

Alaska is not a very pleasant place to live. Even PLUMBING is a monumental task in Alaska. There's very little infrastructure, and other than the tourist(and hunting!) industry(and, yaknow, oil and all that stuff), Alaska's pretty worthless. Unless you like cabbage. Then have at it.