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Kiu Ghesik
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9372
Founded: Aug 25, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kiu Ghesik » Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:28 pm

Tea Chuggers wrote:
Kiu Ghesik wrote:Thaaaat is a good point.

It is true that cliché isn't inherently bad, there are ways to make it work. But it's hard; done without finesse, cliché can drag you out of a work far easier, quicker, and harder than poor writing can. Here's a J.P. Beaubien video to explain it easier than I can. You won't hear exactly the same arguments I'm making, he's a little more favorable to them, but the points he brings up are valid.
Clichés do work. They wouldn't be cliché if they didn't; but now that they are overdone it does kinda take a very skilled writer to pull them off and make them feel right to the reader.

Hey, it's JP! Yeah, you (and he) make a good point. Cliche is necessary to make a story recognizable, I think, because it consists of common elements the reader can recognise and characterize the tail with. But you can't rely entirely on it, because if you do then nothing distinguished your work from a mass of cliches and ideas nicked from someone else.

Godular wrote:
Tea Chuggers wrote:
Honestly I'm gonna have to disagree. There's plenty of well written FFT+ Space Empires out there, but the blandness of their concept makes them all blend together. They can be the best written version of a nation but if I've seen 344 of the exact same thing, I'm still gonna consider it boring. Call of Duty, for what it's worth, is perfectly fine in execution but everyone hates it because it's bland and generic military shooter tripe. On the other hand, I can get past an iffy execution if the concept is neat and not done to death.


Thing is, what constitutes 'neat and not done to death' is kind of a subjective measure.


Let's actually take Godular as an example for this point. His nation is the epitome of "FFT+ badass." And it works because it's got an interesting twist to it, and because the characters are compelling. We can't ignore the fact that a nation lives or dies based on its characters, though there needs to be a Control framework for each of these characters to operate in to make them, in turn, feel unique.
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 ✵  THE GREAT KIU - EJADRIR DEGHEU GIYEF KHUDEYVH. ✵ 

Questions | Soon | Nomadwave
✵ A newly-birthed confederation of insular nomadic clansmen struggling to remain a local great power in the face of their expanding foes. May or may not be united by worship of an eldritch mother-goddess. Now with extra align=center!

✵ ooc: i dont exist
She's loyal, smol, ready to rol. Big big bowl, full of rol. Smol rol, big bowl. Cinny rol, big bowl, smol rol.


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Aeritai
Minister
 
Posts: 2185
Founded: Oct 25, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Aeritai » Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:43 pm

Another cliche that I thought of is nations using animated characters or real world celebrities for their national leader. It isn't necessary a bad thing to have I mean my current leader is from a animated TV show which also has comics as well. Thankfully no one hasn't recognized her yet!
Last edited by Aeritai on Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just call me Aeri
IC: This is a fantasy medieval nation full of deer people... Yes you read that right, deer people
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Las Palmeras
Minister
 
Posts: 3371
Founded: Jun 15, 2012
New York Times Democracy

Postby Las Palmeras » Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:51 pm

A pet peeve of mine is people equating Matrilineality with Matriarchy. And then also portraying Matriarchy as either some kind of peaceful feminist lady-land or some kind of fetish-inducing Amazon femdom thing. I remember because all-female space empires were a thing two years back IIRC.

Me being my selfish, narcissistic self, was taken aback as the cliches made people overlook the fact my PT society's monogamous patriarchal elite abolished marriage among peasants and encouraged matrilineality to maintain their rule. That is anything but feminist.

Aeritai wrote:Another cliche that I thought of is nations using animated characters or real world celebrities for their national leader. It isn't necessary a bad thing to have I mean my current leader is from a animated TV show which also has comics as well. Thankfully no one hasn't recognized her yet!


Dunno who it is but the style is reminiscent of the Avatar comic books I've never read.
Hey hey, LP here: Too burnt out with this nation to make new lore or fix macrohistorical longue durée alt-his inconsistencies, too clingy to let it die.
Summies be like: eWw WeEbSh*T! aNiMu GiRl!
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Aeritai
Minister
 
Posts: 2185
Founded: Oct 25, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Aeritai » Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:52 pm

Las Palmeras wrote:A pet peeve of mine is people equating Matrilineality with Matriarchy. And then also portraying Matriarchy as either some kind of peaceful feminist lady-land or some kind of fetish-inducing Amazon femdom thing. I remember because all-female space empires were a thing two years back IIRC.

Me being my selfish, narcissistic self, was taken aback as the cliches made people overlook the fact my PT society's monogamous patriarchal elite abolished marriage among peasants and encouraged matrilineality to maintain their rule. That is anything but feminist.

Aeritai wrote:Another cliche that I thought of is nations using animated characters or real world celebrities for their national leader. It isn't necessary a bad thing to have I mean my current leader is from a animated TV show which also has comics as well. Thankfully no one hasn't recognized her yet!


Dunno who it is but the style is reminiscent of the Avatar comic books I've never read.


Your close! Also all female space Empires were a thing back then?
Just call me Aeri
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Las Palmeras
Minister
 
Posts: 3371
Founded: Jun 15, 2012
New York Times Democracy

Postby Las Palmeras » Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:53 pm

Aeritai wrote:
Your close! Also all female space Empires were a thing back then?


I think so, my memory isn't the best so you shouldn't trust the exact timeframe. But it was definitely a thing.
Hey hey, LP here: Too burnt out with this nation to make new lore or fix macrohistorical longue durée alt-his inconsistencies, too clingy to let it die.
Summies be like: eWw WeEbSh*T! aNiMu GiRl!
Enjoy the Chad fat old Diet man (~_^)

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Kiu Ghesik
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9372
Founded: Aug 25, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kiu Ghesik » Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:55 pm

Las Palmeras wrote:A pet peeve of mine is people equating Matrilineality with Matriarchy. And then also portraying Matriarchy as either some kind of peaceful feminist lady-land or some kind of fetish-inducing Amazon femdom thing. I remember because all-female space empires were a thing two years back IIRC.

Me being my selfish, narcissistic self, was taken aback as the cliches made people overlook the fact my PT society's monogamous patriarchal elite abolished marriage among peasants and encouraged matrilineality to maintain their rule. That is anything but feminist.

Aeritai wrote:Another cliche that I thought of is nations using animated characters or real world celebrities for their national leader. It isn't necessary a bad thing to have I mean my current leader is from a animated TV show which also has comics as well. Thankfully no one hasn't recognized her yet!


Dunno who it is but the style is reminiscent of the Avatar comic books I've never read.

I've had that same thing happen too, on both this account and my main, though it's an issue of characterization rather than worldbuilding there. People look at Paterson Smith, think "Ooh, he's like me dad!" and write him off as a good albeit ineffectual chap, not a businessman whose political decisions have 80% of the time benefitted his own business. On the opposite end of the spectrum, people look at Ari and see that one line about "killing without hesitation" (which I got rid of for poor phrasing), and think she's a Bond villain, when what I meant was that her society (and her world at large) doesn't value life to the same degree we do. Hell, the Ghesites paint themselves in the blood of their enemies. And that sounds horrid, until you realise that they do it because they want to terrify others away as to avoid another fight, and it's not like these dead guys are using their blood anymore, so... it's a twofer!

Context is incredibly important. As is reading the entirety of a given factbook. i'm guilty of not doing that on more than one occasion.
Last edited by Kiu Ghesik on Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Brief
Caller
Clans
Strife
Words
Faith

 ✵  THE GREAT KIU - EJADRIR DEGHEU GIYEF KHUDEYVH. ✵ 

Questions | Soon | Nomadwave
✵ A newly-birthed confederation of insular nomadic clansmen struggling to remain a local great power in the face of their expanding foes. May or may not be united by worship of an eldritch mother-goddess. Now with extra align=center!

✵ ooc: i dont exist
She's loyal, smol, ready to rol. Big big bowl, full of rol. Smol rol, big bowl. Cinny rol, big bowl, smol rol.


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Las Palmeras
Minister
 
Posts: 3371
Founded: Jun 15, 2012
New York Times Democracy

Postby Las Palmeras » Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:04 pm

Kiu Ghesik wrote:I've had that same thing happen too, on both this account and my main, though it's an issue of characterization rather than worldbuilding there. People look at Paterson Smith, think "Ooh, he's like me dad!" and write him off as a good albeit ineffectual chap, not a businessman whose political decisions have 80% of the time benefitted his own business. On the opposite end of the spectrum, people look at Ari and see that one line about "killing without hesitation" (which I got rid of for poor phrasing), and think she's a Bond villain, when what I meant was that her society (and her world at large) doesn't value life to the same degree we do. Hell, the Ghesites paint themselves in the blood of their enemies. And that sounds horrid, until you realise that they do it because they want to terrify others away as to avoid another fight, and it's not like these dead guys are using their blood anymore, so... it's a twofer!

Context is incredibly important. As is reading the entirety of a given factbook. i'm guilty of not doing that on more than one occasion.


Definitely, I've had that contextual issue with Tohorin as well. The simplest way I can put it is that thinking about a PT nation's morality often involves thinking about "Blue and Orange" value systems. Their needs are different and their perceptions of reality aren't going to be based on Modernist paradigms.
Hey hey, LP here: Too burnt out with this nation to make new lore or fix macrohistorical longue durée alt-his inconsistencies, too clingy to let it die.
Summies be like: eWw WeEbSh*T! aNiMu GiRl!
Enjoy the Chad fat old Diet man (~_^)

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Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44590
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:06 pm

NSG cliche: Several nations that manage to twist literally every post they make into a rant about their political subject of choice.
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Godular
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11612
Founded: Sep 09, 2004
New York Times Democracy

Postby Godular » Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:10 pm

Kowani wrote:NSG cliche: Several nations that manage to twist literally every post they make into a rant about their political subject of choice.


OMG CHOICE IS MURDER

*cough*
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Active RP: ASCENSION
Active RP: SHENRYAX
Dormant RP: Throne of the Fallen Empire

Faction 1: The An'Kazar Control Framework of Godular-- An enormously advanced collective of formerly human bioborgs that are vastly experienced in both inter-dimensional travel and asymmetrical warfare.
A 1.08 civilization, according to this Nation Index Thingie
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Aeritai
Minister
 
Posts: 2185
Founded: Oct 25, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Aeritai » Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:11 pm

Kowani wrote:NSG cliche: Several nations that manage to twist literally every post they make into a rant about their political subject of choice.


Good thing I don't have to worry about that anymore I'm officially done with NSG, but yeah I agree that is a very common cliche on that side of the forum.
Just call me Aeri
IC: This is a fantasy medieval nation full of deer people... Yes you read that right, deer people
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Tea Chuggers
Attaché
 
Posts: 71
Founded: Aug 20, 2020
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Tea Chuggers » Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:07 pm

This isn't even close to NS-specific, but people who have zero idea about how businesses and economy function, and yet make their nations a soapbox about how corporate bad and governments and vigilante robin hoods good. The Old Guard and its movie adaptation are just about the worst examples of it in my recent memory. I get where it comes from, the India Companies/Banana Republics/1840s industrialists, but those are examples of their times, and not currently applicable. For more JP, he made a video on megacorporations like that. And to give a counterpoint, Shadowrun is an example of the same fantasy corporation thing but it has other things going for it, like good gameplay, so I don't mind it as much.
Last edited by Tea Chuggers on Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44590
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:40 pm

Godular wrote:
Kowani wrote:NSG cliche: Several nations that manage to twist literally every post they make into a rant about their political subject of choice.


OMG CHOICE IS MURDER

*cough*

I don't even touch the abortion thread except to deliver news now-
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Godular
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11612
Founded: Sep 09, 2004
New York Times Democracy

Postby Godular » Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:42 pm

Tea Chuggers wrote:This isn't even close to NS-specific, but people who have zero idea about how businesses and economy function, and yet make their nations a soapbox about how corporate bad and governments and vigilante robin hoods good. The Old Guard and its movie adaptation are just about the worst examples of it in my recent memory. I get where it comes from, the India Companies/Banana Republics/1840s industrialists, but those are examples of their times, and not currently applicable. For more JP, he made a video on megacorporations like that. And to give a counterpoint, Shadowrun is an example of the same fantasy corporation thing but it has other things going for it, like good gameplay, so I don't mind it as much.


The Shadowrun pc games are pretty spiffy.
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Active RP: ASCENSION
Active RP: SHENRYAX
Dormant RP: Throne of the Fallen Empire

Faction 1: The An'Kazar Control Framework of Godular-- An enormously advanced collective of formerly human bioborgs that are vastly experienced in both inter-dimensional travel and asymmetrical warfare.
A 1.08 civilization, according to this Nation Index Thingie
I don't normally use NS stats. But when I do, I prefer Dos Eckis I can STILL kill you.
Post responsibly.

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Coryanhafflaruda
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 191
Founded: Jan 24, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Coryanhafflaruda » Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:19 pm

Aeritai wrote:Another cliche that I thought of is nations using animated characters or real world celebrities for their national leader. It isn't necessary a bad thing to have I mean my current leader is from a animated TV show which also has comics as well. Thankfully no one hasn't recognized her yet!

I'm always thinking to create a Gravity Falls type nation with Bill Cipher as the leader but can't since I'm too lazy, lol.

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Minskiev
Minister
 
Posts: 2174
Founded: Apr 20, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Minskiev » Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:42 pm

Anglo-German Kaiserreich wrote:Merging two nations together that really have no business being together.

...Hey, wait-


Well, we have SOME business together. But I get it that it was for the joke.

I wonder if card farming puppets are cliche?

No, there’s no lore in them. You have to have lore to be cliche, in this game at least.
Last edited by Minskiev on Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wexas
Secretary
 
Posts: 31
Founded: Mar 09, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Wexas » Sat Sep 05, 2020 2:28 pm

I've noticed that a lot of nations are either pure Autocracies or true Democracies. I mean this in the sense that a large portion of nations are either nations with a singular autocrat with total god-emperor-like power over their nation or a Democracy that is rarely more corrupt or dysfunctional than the US. While the latter does definitely exist, and I am not saying that nations that are Autocracies or true Democracies are bad (hell, some of my favorite nations on NS fit either category), I just don't believe Democracy and Autocracy is a binary thing. Flawed Democracies, Oligarchies, Merchant Republics, Feudal Monarchies (with high amounts of noble rights), Elective Monarchies, hell even states controlled by a singular or multiple corporations (Behind the scenes or otherwise) among other such governmental systems are underrepresented by NS IMO

Like I said though, there are good pure Autocracies/true Democracies and bad Oligarchies/Flawed Democracies. So pls don't sue me.

Surrealist Patagonia wrote:Not enough collapse scenarios, warlordism, rump states and general stagnation. I only see nations on their highest peak of power.

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Last edited by Wexas on Sat Sep 05, 2020 3:41 pm, edited 5 times in total.
★ Kingdom of Wexas ★
Schizotech Texan Kingdom loosely based in the lore of the CK2 mod 'After the End'
A parody and a homage to the gulf coast of Texas
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Feyrisshire
Envoy
 
Posts: 316
Founded: Nov 27, 2019
Democratic Socialists

Postby Feyrisshire » Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:45 am

Apparently according to a lot of people here - I am literally a cliche
In celebration of the anniversary of the "Love and Romance in Communism" Movement on Feb 21, 2005, during the Feyrisshire Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution, where revolutionary proletarian Faerie Catgirls in the Socialist Democratic Dictatorship of Feyrisshire discovered a new revolutionary proletarian form of love, romance and hentai under Communism!
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Outer Acharet
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 417
Founded: Jul 29, 2020
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Outer Acharet » Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:50 am

Feyrisshire wrote:Apparently according to a lot of people here - I am literally a cliche

You're the trope definer, not the cliche! That's a good thing!
⠀✭⠀THE STATE OF ACHARET⠀✭⠀
The puppet that just won't stay dead has crawled its way out of the grave once more.
oh shit oh fuck why is there a black huey full of angry canadians trying to kill me-

Some Other... Things: Kiu GhesikMiranda-22CBG-Palisade
Overview - Soon | Leadership - Soon

News? What news? News is for people who don't have a bloated military-industrial complex strangling their apparatus of state. Wait, that sounds like a bad thing, doesn't it?

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Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44590
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:58 am

Feyrisshire wrote:Apparently according to a lot of people here - I am literally a cliche

Sees anime girl flag

Target acquired, bring ‘er in.
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New Carthagea
Diplomat
 
Posts: 759
Founded: Jul 20, 2020
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby New Carthagea » Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:01 am

Outer Acharet wrote:
Feyrisshire wrote:Apparently according to a lot of people here - I am literally a cliche

You're the trope definer, not the cliche! That's a good thing!


Yeah, you're the OG, Feyrisshire ! That's a wonderful thing !
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Federal Remnants
Secretary
 
Posts: 31
Founded: Jul 28, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Federal Remnants » Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:11 am

Ten bazillion firearms and tanks that can punch holes through steel that would feasibly eat up like 75-80% of the national budget. Some variation of Imperial Germany or Russia - since who gives a damn about the Kingdom of Bavaria or Duchy of Nassau. Bonus points for forgetting that SE Asia or Oceania exists.
Last edited by Federal Remnants on Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
☆ THE FEDERAL REMNANTS OF THE UNITED STATES ☆
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An esoteric fascist, totalitarian dictatorship centered around the worship of the Founding Fathers and the return of a mythical homeland that never existed.
The current year is 2198 AD and Florida is also underwater.
oops, what NS stats | Making INGSOC look liberal for over 100 years | Days gone without human rights violations: 0

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Kashimura
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 127
Founded: Apr 24, 2020
New York Times Democracy

Postby Kashimura » Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:12 am

Kowani wrote:NSG cliche: Several nations that manage to twist literally every post they make into a rant about their political subject of choice.

On that note, I can’t tell if it’s actually what happens or if it’s in my head, but:
The left-right bias on a given NSG thread being based on whichever was quicker to respond.
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Outer Acharet
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 417
Founded: Jul 29, 2020
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Outer Acharet » Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:23 am

Kashimura wrote:
Kowani wrote:NSG cliche: Several nations that manage to twist literally every post they make into a rant about their political subject of choice.

On that note, I can’t tell if it’s actually what happens or if it’s in my head, but:
The left-right bias on a given NSG thread being based on whichever was quicker to respond.

Considering people make up their minds on a topic based on whoever told them about it first, according to evidence, it's not surprising.
⠀✭⠀THE STATE OF ACHARET⠀✭⠀
The puppet that just won't stay dead has crawled its way out of the grave once more.
oh shit oh fuck why is there a black huey full of angry canadians trying to kill me-

Some Other... Things: Kiu GhesikMiranda-22CBG-Palisade
Overview - Soon | Leadership - Soon

News? What news? News is for people who don't have a bloated military-industrial complex strangling their apparatus of state. Wait, that sounds like a bad thing, doesn't it?

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Western Fardelshufflestein
Senator
 
Posts: 4742
Founded: Apr 21, 2020
New York Times Democracy

Postby Western Fardelshufflestein » Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:04 pm

Tea Chuggers wrote:
Kiu Ghesik wrote:Thaaaat is a good point.

It is true that cliché isn't inherently bad, there are ways to make it work. But it's hard; done without finesse, cliché can drag you out of a work far easier, quicker, and harder than poor writing can. Here's a J.P. Beaubien video to explain it easier than I can. You won't hear exactly the same arguments I'm making, he's a little more favorable to them, but the points he brings up are valid.
Clichés do work. They wouldn't be cliché if they didn't; but now that they are overdone it does kinda take a very skilled writer to pull them off and make them feel right to the reader.

Aaaaaaand now I am hooked on this channel. Writing + Sarcasm = Hours of greatness. The ones about writer's block and finishing a novel got me right...here. *Clutches heart*

Alright, for an NS cliche...not saying it's good or bad--it just is--the pro/anti political views format.
The Constitutional Monarchy of Western Fardelshufflestein
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Kiu Ghesik
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9372
Founded: Aug 25, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kiu Ghesik » Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:06 pm

Western Fardelshufflestein wrote:
Tea Chuggers wrote:
It is true that cliché isn't inherently bad, there are ways to make it work. But it's hard; done without finesse, cliché can drag you out of a work far easier, quicker, and harder than poor writing can. Here's a J.P. Beaubien video to explain it easier than I can. You won't hear exactly the same arguments I'm making, he's a little more favorable to them, but the points he brings up are valid.
Clichés do work. They wouldn't be cliché if they didn't; but now that they are overdone it does kinda take a very skilled writer to pull them off and make them feel right to the reader.

Aaaaaaand now I am hooked on this channel. Writing + Sarcasm = Hours of greatness. The ones about writer's block and finishing a novel got me right...here. *Clutches heart*

Alright, for an NS cliche...not saying it's good or bad--it just is--the pro/anti political views format.

That's why neither Ari nor Pat have them. Well, they do, but they're in the "beliefs/policies" sections, and I try my best to explain their beliefs thoroughly with their reasoning for the positions they hold. And they're most certainly not color-coded buzzwords.

And if you like TWA, you'll probably like OSP and some of the other writing/worldbuilding channels too. I can only remember OSP and James Tullos right now, but there's others right on the tip of my tongue I can't quite recall.
Last edited by Kiu Ghesik on Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Brief
Caller
Clans
Strife
Words
Faith

 ✵  THE GREAT KIU - EJADRIR DEGHEU GIYEF KHUDEYVH. ✵ 

Questions | Soon | Nomadwave
✵ A newly-birthed confederation of insular nomadic clansmen struggling to remain a local great power in the face of their expanding foes. May or may not be united by worship of an eldritch mother-goddess. Now with extra align=center!

✵ ooc: i dont exist
She's loyal, smol, ready to rol. Big big bowl, full of rol. Smol rol, big bowl. Cinny rol, big bowl, smol rol.


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