If Abortion Is Murder....

[Pesda]

Sperm aren't people.

Life begins at fertilization, the union of sperm and ovum.

then why does the pope condem condoms?

Because he is wrong. I am a catholic Christian, and I don't think that masturbation, condoms, sex for pleasure, or BJs are sinful.

[Icamera]

then blow jobs are cannibalism.

valid argument or not?
Religus pro lifers is often the same that argues that women according to the bible is beneath men, and they they should please men sexually, so if the man told her to give him a BJ. what should she so?

Not quite. I don't spend my free time thinking about it that way, but I'd assume it's similar to eating an egg versus eating a chicken.

EDIT: What's this doing in F7? Shouldn't it be in NSG?

[San Benedict e San Francesco]

Re: Condoms: Forgive the colourful response, but:

Catholics are required to demonstrate an openness for life. Sex for pleasure's sake alone, even in marriage, is still considered sinful. While we're free to participate in acts such as anal sex or fellatio as foreplay, we must come to climax in the act of true intercourse.

This is also an injunction against hormonal birth control pills, something than most catholic women, particularly in North America, either don't know or are ignoring.

(Full disclosure: This isn't strictly biblically supported and therefore I, for one, feel free to ignore, even if it is in the Catechism.)

[Pesda]

Sex for pleasure's sake alone, even in marriage, is still considered sinful.

Not by me.

[Teutonic Territories]

Abortion is killing a child. Blow jobs are killing sperm. Sperm =/= zygote.

They arent babies until they are born.

They are. Birth is just another environment. Conception is when something actually happens. Something is created. It hasn't just grown a set amount, it hasn't just come into a new environment, it's existence begins.

[Unicorn Landish]

If abortion is murder.. unborn baby must be person.. then I can drive in carpool lane.

[Girkil]

Only on Nationstates...

And maybe Bay12

[Cruztopia]

then blow jobs are cannibalism.

valid argument or not?
Religus pro lifers is often the same that argues that women according to the bible is beneath men, and they they should please men sexually, so if the man told her to give him a BJ. what should she so?

This is an ignorant statement. No pro-lifer I have met thinks killing sperm or wasting it through masturbation or something of the sort is murder. I personally am pro-life and don't think life begins until a sperm fertilizes an egg. The scientific community agrees. And as a conservative devout Catholic I can tell you women are not at all below men or simply objects for sexual pleasure. That's also an ignorant statement. That view of women is what Catholics try to fight in society. Hell, it's a sin to even think of having sex with a woman you're not married to. If a man told her to give him a BJ she should say no, even if he is her husband. It's still distorting sex.

[Krala Sau]

If abortion is murder.. unborn baby must be person.. then I can drive in carpool lane.

Off Topic: Does anyone else notice that it says "Posts: 0"? How is that even possible?

On Topic: I have to say that that is one of the oddest comparisons I've ever heard.
EDIT: Not yours, Unicorn Landish, but the OPs.

[San Benedict e San Francesco]

Sex for pleasure's sake alone, even in marriage, is still considered sinful.

Not by me.

Congratulations. I support your speedy ascent to the papacy. </sarcasm>

Since I am not a hive-mind of every catholic person on earth, I can only argue the official position, plus my own, which happens to be that my sexual life and tastes are not for public discussion.

[Great Nepal]

More like, if Abortion is murder.
Fetus must be a human being.
Therefore, it has all rights and responsibilities of human being.
All human beings have right to bodily sovereignty and self-defense.
Since unwanted baby fails to do so, it is act of self-defense on part of mother to commit abortion.

[Pesda]

Not by me.

Congratulations. I support your speedy ascent to the papacy. </sarcasm>

Since I am not a hive-mind of every catholic person on earth, I can only argue the official position, plus my own, which happens to be that my sexual life and tastes are not for public discussion.

Oh good... Pope Pesda the first... although I don't think there was a Saint Pesda.
You can argue the official position, but I will argue that it is wrong.

[San Benedict e San Francesco]

Congratulations. I support your speedy ascent to the papacy. </sarcasm>

Since I am not a hive-mind of every catholic person on earth, I can only argue the official position, plus my own, which happens to be that my sexual life and tastes are not for public discussion.

Oh good... Pope Pesda the first... although I don't think there was a Saint Pesda.
You can argue the official position, but I will argue that it is wrong.

That's your right.

Actually, upon consideration, I probably wasn't being that sarcastic. I think that the Catechism on sexual morality could use a serious revisit.

[Pesda]

Oh good... Pope Pesda the first... although I don't think there was a Saint Pesda.
You can argue the official position, but I will argue that it is wrong.

That's your right.

Actually, upon consideration, I probably wasn't being that sarcastic. I think that the Catechism on sexual morality could use a serious revisit.

Okay. But if it's reconsidered, what position would you want the Church to take? Personally, I'd like it to stay out of sex all together.

[Subgeniustan]

If sperm aren't actually considered human life, why do some religious groups like the Catholic Church try to ban contraception (even condoms)? The Pope himself has gone to Africa and told people there that condoms actually increase your likelihood of getting AIDS. (To be fair to the Pope, he was comparing sex with condoms to abstinence, and obviously abstinence can't get you AIDS, but still, he's teaching people not to use condoms.)

Also, some states in the U.S. are proposing "personhood" legislation for fetuses that would actually outlaw many forms of birth control, such as The Pill^tm. I don't want to get too technical here, but birth control pills do not prevent fertilization; instead, they prevent implantation of the zygote in the uterus. In other words, the fertilized egg cell cannot attach itself to the wall of the uterus and start growing into a baby, if the woman is on birth control pills, but it is still a fertilized egg cell, and some people consider that to be a human being. There is also the morning after pill, or Plan B^tm, which would likewise be banned by these various fetus personhood laws proposed by some U.S. state legislators around the country. May I remind you that Rick Santorum has said that birth control is "not OK", and basically implied that he wants to make it illegal?

And the Biblical story of Onan tells of a man who God struck down for masturbation, for spilling his holy seed. Many Christians think masturbation is sinful and should be outlawed, along with pornography. Christine O'Donnell, who ran for the office of U.S. Senator from Delaware in the 2010 election but lost despite the Republican Party winning most other competitive races that year in a landslide, lost because of her views on masturbation, among other things. She had, for years, been the leader of a Christian youth organization seeking to ban masturbation, and she would constantly tell people not to do it. Of course, she also opposed premarital sex AND birth control AND gay rights, so the only sex act that someone like her would NOT prohibit would be coitus between a heterosexual married couple without use of birth control. Oral and anal sex, obviously, are both still considered sinful, and only coitus is still allowed by Christian fundamentalists/dominionists. Even "pulling out" is sinful according to some Christians, who believe the purpose of sex is to make babies and any sex where the people take steps to prevent babies from being made is considered "mutual masturbation" and sinful. The "missionary position" isn't called that for nothing... ever heard of the "Quiverfull" movement? See Wikipedia for more info on that. There are even movements against the HPV vaccine because HPV is a sexually transmitted disease, and some Christians believe STDs are a divine punishment for sinful behavior, and that medical treatment for STDs encourages sinful behavior and is therefore sinful too.

Of course, Christianity is a diverse religion, and you can find Christians who believe anything, even Christians who believe that it's OK for people to masturbate or use birth control or have premarital sex or have gay sex or have gay marriage, but those Christians tend to be ones that don't go around claiming to be Biblical literalists. The Biblical literalists want to outlaw most types of sex. I don't know what percentage of Christians are Biblical literalists who take extreme positions when it comes to personal sexual liberty, but I know it is an increasing number, and they are quite vocal and outspoken and have a lot of political influence.

Now here's the part where I state MY personal views. I think 2 (or more, or less) consenting adults should be able to have any form of sex they want, and masturbation, pornography, and all forms of birth control should remain legal (as they currently are). In fact, I believe abortion should remain legal, too, although it should be legal, safe, and rare. The way to keep it rare (but still legal) is to encourage people to use multiple forms of birth control simultaneously, through Sex Ed classes. For example, using condoms along with having the woman be on birth control pills is one way to be doubly protected against the possibility of pregnancy. This is because I believe in individual liberty from government overreach into people's private lives. In fact, I also support not just gay marriage, but the rights of people such as Muslims and fundamentalist Mormons to enter into polygamous marriages, although I would actually allow polygamy for anyone, not just Muslims and Mormons. Islam is the 2nd biggest religion in the world and its followers believe in and engage in polygamy, a practice that is between consenting adults, and outlawing it doesn't make any more sense than Prohibition on alcohol did. Polygamy is a matter of both personal liberty and religious liberty. Of course, other Islamic practices such as so-called "honor killings" that are barbaric and violent should remain illegal and have VERY harsh penalties.

That is not to say that I engage in any of these practices myself, of course! I just believe that all people should have as much freedom as possible, and the benefits of freedom are beneficial to everybody, even people like me who choose not to take advantage of some of the freedoms we have. For instance, as a straight man living in a state where gay marriage is legal, I have no intention of ever obtaining a gay marriage or engaging in any homosexual acts, because that is not my sexual orientation. Similarly, since I am male, I would never get an abortion or take birth control pills or anything like that, since that stuff is for women, not men. And I have no intention of becoming a Muslim or Mormon or engaging in polygamy, either; personally I am monogamous.

But I DO believe that OTHER people should have all of those rights, so they can make those decisions for themselves, instead of having the GOVERNMENT tell them what they can and cannot do when it comes to their private sex lives. The 5 places where I DO draw the line regarding sex are rape, incest, pedophilia, bestiality, and necrophilia. Those should remain illegal, because they are just WRONG, and they are not between consenting adults.

[Christian Democrats]

Sperm aren't people.

Life begins at fertilization, the union of sperm and ovum.

then why does the pope condem condoms?

According to the Catholic Church, sexual intercourse should be enjoyed only in its wholeness; that is, a sexual act should be free, total, faithful, and fruitful. Separating sexual pleasure and the potential for procreation goes against the natural purpose of the act.

[San Benedict e San Francesco]

That's your right.

Actually, upon consideration, I probably wasn't being that sarcastic. I think that the Catechism on sexual morality could use a serious revisit.

Okay. But if it's reconsidered, what position would you want the Church to take? Personally, I'd like it to stay out of sex all together.

*shrug* Beyond adultery, really, what a man and a woman do in the throes of the marital union are up to them.

(Caveat, someone will bring it up: I'm pro-gay-rights politically and socially. I don't let my nominal faith cloud my own moral judgement. Judge not, yest yadda yadda yadda.)

[Hjornis]

. (To be fair to the Pope, he was comparing sex with condoms to abstinence, and obviously abstinence can't get you AIDS, but still, he's teaching people not to use condoms.)
.

I saw a CSI episode once where the murderer cut the wictim with a knife and the blod spatter hit him in the eyes and they absorbed the AIDS virus.

[Pesda]

Okay. But if it's reconsidered, what position would you want the Church to take? Personally, I'd like it to stay out of sex all together.

*shrug* Beyond adultery, really, what a man and a woman do in the throes of the marital union are up to them.

(Caveat, someone will bring it up: I'm pro-gay-rights politically and socially. I don't let my nominal faith cloud my own moral judgement. Judge not, yest yadda yadda yadda.)

Then we're in agreement.

[Cruztopia]

then why does the pope condem condoms?

According to the Catholic Church, sexual intercourse should be enjoyed only in its wholeness; that is, a sexual act should be free, total, faithful, and fruitful. Separating sexual pleasure and the potential for procreation goes against the natural purpose of the act.

Agreed. Word for word. Great explanation.

[Howom]

A woman still ovulates after fertilization. So you guys are basically saying that every woman is a serial killer? Besides, if fetuses are people, how come the census does not count them? If fetuses are humans, why does everyone say: We have two children and one on the way instead of saying we have three children? Then, all this talk about the sanctity of life. Life is sacred? Who said so? God? If you read History you will see more people have been killed in the name of God than by every other reason.

[TableRase]

Putting on my conservative Christian hat, I'd say the logic would follow that the woman should do what the husband wanted, and the man would proceed to be stoned to death in public by the town. Or struck by lightning personally by God.

[Jari Head]

If abortion is murder.. unborn baby must be person.. then I can drive in carpool lane.

Off Topic: Does anyone else notice that it says "Posts: 0"? How is that even possible?

On Topic: I have to say that that is one of the oddest comparisons I've ever heard.
EDIT: Not yours, Unicorn Landish, but the OPs.

Post in this forum don't add to your post count so if this is the only place you post your post count won't increase.

[Cruztopia]

A woman still ovulates after fertilization. So you guys are basically saying that every woman is a serial killer? Besides, if fetuses are people, how come the census does not count them? If fetuses are humans, why does everyone say: We have two children and one on the way instead of saying we have three children? Then, all this talk about the sanctity of life. Life is sacred? Who said so? God? If you read History you will see more people have been killed in the name of God than by every other reason.

That makes people bad, not God. And in this case no pro-lifers are even coming close to killing anything. And so people say "one on the way" are you honestly going to base an argument on the fact that some people say that? They say it because one is still growing and is not fully developed the way the other children are. However, that doesn't mean they are not alive nor have the right to live. And no, a woman is not a serial killer. You are trying to distort the pro-life argument. Only eggs fertilized by sperm are alive, not normal eggs. If eggs and sperm seperately were considered living humans, than over 9/10 guys is a mass murderer.

[Teutonic Territories]

If sperm aren't actually considered human life, why do some religious groups like the Catholic Church try to ban contraception (even condoms)? The Pope himself has gone to Africa and told people there that condoms actually increase your likelihood of getting AIDS. (To be fair to the Pope, he was comparing sex with condoms to abstinence, and obviously abstinence can't get you AIDS, but still, he's teaching people not to use condoms.)

Also, some states in the U.S. are proposing "personhood" legislation for fetuses that would actually outlaw many forms of birth control, such as The Pill^tm. I don't want to get too technical here, but birth control pills do not prevent fertilization; instead, they prevent implantation of the zygote in the uterus. In other words, the fertilized egg cell cannot attach itself to the wall of the uterus and start growing into a baby, if the woman is on birth control pills, but it is still a fertilized egg cell, and some people consider that to be a human being. There is also the morning after pill, or Plan B^tm, which would likewise be banned by these various fetus personhood laws proposed by some U.S. state legislators around the country. May I remind you that Rick Santorum has said that birth control is "not OK", and basically implied that he wants to make it illegal?

And the Biblical story of Onan tells of a man who God struck down for masturbation, for spilling his holy seed. Many Christians think masturbation is sinful and should be outlawed, along with pornography. Christine O'Donnell, who ran for the office of U.S. Senator from Delaware in the 2010 election but lost despite the Republican Party winning most other competitive races that year in a landslide, lost because of her views on masturbation, among other things. She had, for years, been the leader of a Christian youth organization seeking to ban masturbation, and she would constantly tell people not to do it. Of course, she also opposed premarital sex AND birth control AND gay rights, so the only sex act that someone like her would NOT prohibit would be coitus between a heterosexual married couple without use of birth control. Oral and anal sex, obviously, are both still considered sinful, and only coitus is still allowed by Christian fundamentalists/dominionists. Even "pulling out" is sinful according to some Christians, who believe the purpose of sex is to make babies and any sex where the people take steps to prevent babies from being made is considered "mutual masturbation" and sinful. The "missionary position" isn't called that for nothing... ever heard of the "Quiverfull" movement? See Wikipedia for more info on that. There are even movements against the HPV vaccine because HPV is a sexually transmitted disease, and some Christians believe STDs are a divine punishment for sinful behavior, and that medical treatment for STDs encourages sinful behavior and is therefore sinful too.

Of course, Christianity is a diverse religion, and you can find Christians who believe anything, even Christians who believe that it's OK for people to masturbate or use birth control or have premarital sex or have gay sex or have gay marriage, but those Christians tend to be ones that don't go around claiming to be Biblical literalists. The Biblical literalists want to outlaw most types of sex. I don't know what percentage of Christians are Biblical literalists who take extreme positions when it comes to personal sexual liberty, but I know it is an increasing number, and they are quite vocal and outspoken and have a lot of political influence.

Now here's the part where I state MY personal views. I think 2 (or more, or less) consenting adults should be able to have any form of sex they want, and masturbation, pornography, and all forms of birth control should remain legal (as they currently are). In fact, I believe abortion should remain legal, too, although it should be legal, safe, and rare. The way to keep it rare (but still legal) is to encourage people to use multiple forms of birth control simultaneously, through Sex Ed classes. For example, using condoms along with having the woman be on birth control pills is one way to be doubly protected against the possibility of pregnancy. This is because I believe in individual liberty from government overreach into people's private lives. In fact, I also support not just gay marriage, but the rights of people such as Muslims and fundamentalist Mormons to enter into polygamous marriages, although I would actually allow polygamy for anyone, not just Muslims and Mormons. Islam is the 2nd biggest religion in the world and its followers believe in and engage in polygamy, a practice that is between consenting adults, and outlawing it doesn't make any more sense than Prohibition on alcohol did. Polygamy is a matter of both personal liberty and religious liberty. Of course, other Islamic practices such as so-called "honor killings" that are barbaric and violent should remain illegal and have VERY harsh penalties.

That is not to say that I engage in any of these practices myself, of course! I just believe that all people should have as much freedom as possible, and the benefits of freedom are beneficial to everybody, even people like me who choose not to take advantage of some of the freedoms we have. For instance, as a straight man living in a state where gay marriage is legal, I have no intention of ever obtaining a gay marriage or engaging in any homosexual acts, because that is not my sexual orientation. Similarly, since I am male, I would never get an abortion or take birth control pills or anything like that, since that stuff is for women, not men. And I have no intention of becoming a Muslim or Mormon or engaging in polygamy, either; personally I am monogamous.

But I DO believe that OTHER people should have all of those rights, so they can make those decisions for themselves, instead of having the GOVERNMENT tell them what they can and cannot do when it comes to their private sex lives. The 5 places where I DO draw the line regarding sex are rape, incest, pedophilia, bestiality, and necrophilia. Those should remain illegal, because they are just WRONG, and they are not between consenting adults.

We want people to respect the sanctity of sex. Sex is a way to reproduce, not to please ourselves.

Also, on rape, incest, pedophilia, ect. If you don't want those because you say they are wrong, then you have to respect the Christian arguments against homosexuality*. If your reasons are legitimate, so are ours.

Plus, freedom involves the freedom to live, so abortion should be illegal. It kills people.


*Note that I agree that all of those sexual acts are wrong.