PASSED: Liberate belgium

[Riemstagrad]

... the liberation happened today. i just came online half an hour ago, so i just noticed what happend. and i don't think i'm the only 'native' of belgium who didn't log in half an hour after the update.

[Mexar]

As I see it, the problem is that Liberation proposal are laws, and move at the speed of laws. The defender's actions have made this law obsolete, and even counter-productive to the original intent, but it's almost sure to pass because there's not enough time to stop it.

[Urgench]

... the liberation happened today. i just came online half an hour ago, so i just noticed what happend. and i don't think i'm the only 'native' of belgium who didn't log in half an hour after the update.

So none of you had any idea that it might be on the cards ? Why on earth is the SC even liberating a region who's natives seem not to give a damn about what's actually happening to it ? In any case surely you can get a position on what you'd like the WA membership to vote on this resolution before it's passed no ? Or will we all have to wait on the half assed, who gives a damn attitude you all seem to have ?

[The Sedge]

Have some consideration for the natives. None of them were informed about our liberation prior to it happening, and I imagine that most of them were dedicating their time to working out a way of liberating the region after the resolution passed (and campaigning to get the resolution passed). Its an important decision as to what they do next, and since West-Flanders probably wants to consult as many natives as possible before a decision is made, it will take time.

They've had loads of time to organise themselves, how about we show some consideration for the "natives" of other regions which need liberating and not demand that the WA waste its time cleaning up for Belgium ?

We couldn't exactly ask that this didn't go to a vote because us defenders had the password, and it can't be taken down now its at a vote, so the next 2 days of voting were going to occur anyway. There may be no need for a repeal, if the resolution fails, or if the natives decide they don't want one. Trust me - I want to free the other occupied regions as much as anyone, but there's no alternative to having this resolution at vote.

As for Mexar's point, I don't believe our actions were counter-productive, if we hadn't liberated and the resolution had passed, it may have taken weeks to successfully liberate the region, meaning that we had to tie up resources which could be used to help other regions.

[Travancore-Cochin]

... the liberation happened today. i just came online half an hour ago, so i just noticed what happend. and i don't think i'm the only 'native' of belgium who didn't log in half an hour after the update.

So none of you had any idea that it might be on the cards ? Why on earth is the SC even liberating a region who's natives seem not to give a damn about what's actually happening to it ? In any case surely you can get a position on what you'd like the WA membership to vote on this resolution before it's passed no ? Or will we all have to wait on the half assed, who gives a damn attitude you all seem to have ?

OOC

Excuse me, but the liberation just happened earlier today. 12 hours, to be precise. You can't expect to get everything sorted out in just 12 hours. Especially something as important as deciding the future of a region.

The fact is that this Liberation proposal is at vote and cannot be removed by the mods. I don't know how you propose to save time.

[Urgench]

Have some consideration for the natives. None of them were informed about our liberation prior to it happening, and I imagine that most of them were dedicating their time to working out a way of liberating the region after the resolution passed (and campaigning to get the resolution passed). Its an important decision as to what they do next, and since West-Flanders probably wants to consult as many natives as possible before a decision is made, it will take time.

They've had loads of time to organise themselves, how about we show some consideration for the "natives" of other regions which need liberating and not demand that the WA waste its time cleaning up for Belgium ?

We couldn't exactly ask that this didn't go to a vote because us defenders had the password, and it can't be taken down now its at a vote, so the next 2 days of voting were going to occur anyway. There may be no need for a repeal, if the resolution fails, or if the natives decide they don't want one. Trust me - I want to free the other occupied regions as much as anyone, but there's no alternative to having this resolution at vote.

As for Mexar's point, I don't believe our actions were counter-productive, if we hadn't liberated and the resolution had passed, it may have taken weeks to successfully liberate the region, meaning that we had to tie up resources which could be used to help other regions.

I have no problem with the next two days of voting, and as a regular I'm perfectly aware that there's no alternative to it being at vote now.

What gets my goat is this "Oh we can't organise ourselves to make up our minds, so we might want to revisit this whole debacle when we have" attitude or Belgiumites. If they organised themselves properly they could easily come up with a position and then campaign delegates to vote in the way that suited them, therefore obviating the need for any repeal. Part of the PR for this kind of resolution was the incredible vote controlling abilities of the GP community, well lets see a bit of that now please.

[Mexar]

As for Mexar's point, I don't believe our actions were counter-productive, if we hadn't liberated and the resolution had passed, it may have taken weeks to successfully liberate the region, meaning that we had to tie up resources which could be used to help other regions.

Let me clarify. I didn't say your actions were counter-productive. I said that your actions made the proposal counter-productive. Since you liberated Belgium BEFORE this proposal passed, it is no longer needed. Alas, laws are much slower than military action.

[Urgench]

... the liberation happened today. i just came online half an hour ago, so i just noticed what happend. and i don't think i'm the only 'native' of belgium who didn't log in half an hour after the update.

So none of you had any idea that it might be on the cards ? Why on earth is the SC even liberating a region who's natives seem not to give a damn about what's actually happening to it ? In any case surely you can get a position on what you'd like the WA membership to vote on this resolution before it's passed no ? Or will we all have to wait on the half assed, who gives a damn attitude you all seem to have ?

OOC

Excuse me, but the liberation just happened earlier today. 12 hours, to be precise. You can't expect to get everything sorted out in just 12 hours. Especially something as important as deciding the future of a region.

The fact is that this Liberation proposal is at vote and cannot be removed by the mods. I don't know how you propose to save time.

Like I said I have no problem with this resolution. I have a problem with West Flanders cavalier attitude towards the SC's time in future when they ask that instead of them making up their minds what they want voters to do about this resolution they will just take their sweet time and then inflict this mess on us all again with a repeal.

[The Sedge]

The thing is that they've had only 12 hours to try and make a decision - you should at least give them 24 hours to try and arrive at one, as there's no way that all members of Belgium (or even a majority) will have been online in that time. I think the natives are aware of the urgency in coming to a decision, but important decisions like re-founding shouldn't be taken lightly, or rushed into, so they need at least another 12 hours before they are pestered for a decision.

[Urgench]

The thing is that they've had only 12 hours to try and make a decision - you should at least give them 24 hours to try and arrive at one, as there's no way that all members of Belgium (or even a majority) will have been online in that time. I think the natives are aware of the urgency in coming to a decision, but important decisions like re-founding shouldn't be taken lightly, or rushed into, so they need at least another 12 hours before they are pestered for a decision.

Fine but I'm sure you'll agree that West Flander's attitude of "Oh whatever, we can always just write a repeal" is a bit of kick in the teeth no?

[The Sedge]

Yes, perhaps it wasn't phrased very well, it did look a little condescending

[West-Flanders]

The thing is that they've had only 12 hours to try and make a decision - you should at least give them 24 hours to try and arrive at one, as there's no way that all members of Belgium (or even a majority) will have been online in that time. I think the natives are aware of the urgency in coming to a decision, but important decisions like re-founding shouldn't be taken lightly, or rushed into, so they need at least another 12 hours before they are pestered for a decision.

Fine but I'm sure you'll agree that West Flander's attitude of "Oh whatever, we can always just write a repeal" is a bit of kick in the teeth no?

Com'on, what's the matter with you? We simply want some time to discuss what's best for the future of the region, if that's not to much to ask? We've been only liberated since this morning! It's been only 12 hours. You can't expect us to have already made a well-founded decision after a fully matured discussion between all inhabitans about the future of our region, can you?

So I simply asked to continue the vote as it is, and don't start sending mass-telegrams to everyone to change their votes yet. At this time we want the liberation-resolution to be voted on like it is. There's no way of removing it of the voting floor now anyhow (mods don't do that). It's likely to be approved, and at the moment that's fine by us.. It would mean we cannot set a password, but it would also eliminate the possibility for invaders to quickly set an invisible password (like they did). Suppose, after a healthy discussion we decide we'ld rather have the possibility to password the region (eg because now Belgium is special, invaders are more eager to invade it), we can always use the repeal-option (it's there for a reason you know). Or if in the future we decide it would be better to refound the region, we would need to have the option to password the region.

Oh and why would you need a repeal if your going to go a refound a region ? Surely that obviates this whole process no ?

Here's a quick guide to refound a region: everyone has to leave first, only 1 nation left, and password the region (so you're sure you stay the only nation), then at the appropriate time you moves out, and refound. Without doubt some Macedonians are also eager to take refound Belgium. If we have not the option to password the region, any nation can simply jump in with some WA's, grab the region again.

Maybe I'm not fully accustomed with the customes of the proposal-community, but if there's a possibility to repeal, it means we may use it. I saw nothing wrong with simply mentioning that fact.

If you don't like the Security Council, or the Liberation-resolutions (altough I wasn't really fond of them either), or Gameplay,.. that's though luck for you, but please don't work it out on us. We've simply fallen victims to the system, and some powerhungry Macedonian kid.

In any case, I'm actually still not fond of using Liberation-resolutions. The invader/defending situation can change quickly, while the WA-bureaucracy cannot keep up. Yesterday the regions Japan and Stargate were invaded. Suppose these would also need Liberation-resolutions. Proposals would have to be drafted. Proposal-writing-people don't like the gameplay-style they're written in. Invader-people won't agree on the contence. Then when a proposal is made, it needs to get the quorum. If they reach that, they'ld have to wait in line behind some normal proposals, some other liberation proposals, some commend and condemns... Then finally they get voted on. In the meanwhile, weeks have gone by, and the region could be destroyed already, or liberated for that matter. It's timeconsuming and takes loads of red tape. I'ld always prefered the much simpler solution to simply get rid of the hidden-password-option. But that's another discussion.

[Biblical Importance]

Urgench,
It isn't the natives of Belgium that are wasting your time, nor are any of the defenders liberated Belgium wasting your time. If you are looking for someone to blame for wasting your time (and clearly you are), then you should aim the blame at Mencer and Macedon and every other invader organization that for so long created the problem in the region of Belgium that the NationStates community and the WA had to deal with. This is a victory for the natives of Belgium (despite the spin that that raiders attempt to create) and one that, based on the WA proposal, is supported by the vast majority.

To the natives of Belgium,
Take your time, there is no rush. Decide what is the best course of action for your region and go about implementing it. If you need help from the NationStates community to help clean up the mess that has been caused by Mencer and Macedon, whether it is help in securing your region or WA resolutions, go right ahead and ask, we will happily help out in any way we can.

[Community Property]

In light of the recent defeat of the invaders, the People's Republic of Community Property has switched its vote on this proposal to "against".

[Travancore-Cochin]

Yesterday the regions Japan and Stargate were invaded. Suppose these would also need Liberation-resolutions.

OOC

Japan was, luckily, raided by raiders, not griefers. And they have left already.
Stargate, on the other hand, was successfully defended by TITO. The current WA delegate is a TITO member who has not instituted a password.

In both cases, there would be no need for a Liberation proposal, because the delegate in each case hasn't/hadn't instituted a password.

[Urgench]

Com'on, what's the matter with you? We simply want some time to discuss what's best for the future of the region, if that's not to much to ask? We've been only liberated since this morning! It's been only 12 hours. You can't expect us to have already made a well-founded decision after a fully matured discussion between all inhabitans about the future of our region, can you?

So I simply asked to continue the vote as it is, and don't start sending mass-telegrams to everyone to change their votes yet. At this time we want the liberation-resolution to be voted on like it is. There's no way of removing it of the voting floor now anyhow (mods don't do that). It's likely to be approved, and at the moment that's fine by us.. It would mean we cannot set a password, but it would also eliminate the possibility for invaders to quickly set an invisible password (like they did). Suppose, after a healthy discussion we decide we'ld rather have the possibility to password the region (eg because now Belgium is special, invaders are more eager to invade it), we can always use the repeal-option (it's there for a reason you know). Or if in the future we decide it would be better to refound the region, we would need to have the option to password the region.

Horse poop, you want the WA to give you leave to take all the time you want to make up your minds about something you should have been prepared for anyway and then you want to keep the option open to waste the WA's time with this whole issue again if you decide you don't want the WA's intervention any more. Please tell me how that isn't an abuse of process ?

Maybe I'm not fully accustomed with the customes of the proposal-community, but if there's a possibility to repeal, it means we may use it. I saw nothing wrong with simply mentioning that fact.

Well repeals weren't invented so Belgium can have the luxury of using WA intervention if it wants it and then when it finally decides otherwise it can waste the WA's time undoing that intervention. Make up your minds what you want the WA to do and then campaign for it before the end of this vote rather than deciding that the WA is some sort of convenience for Belgium. There are other regions who need to be liberated and you want to hog WA resolution time just because your region is poorly organised.

If you don't like the Security Council, or the Liberation-resolutions (altough I wasn't really fond of them either), or Gameplay,.. that's though luck for you, but please don't work it out on us. We've simply fallen victims to the system, and some powerhungry Macedonian kid.

OK this is completely out of order, this has nothing to do with what i think about the SC or Liberation or GPers, and pretending that it does makes you look cunning and unpleasant frankly. I'm annoyed that you seem to think the SC and liberation resolutions were invented purely for the convenience of Belgium, period.

[West-Flanders]

Yesterday the regions Japan and Stargate were invaded. Suppose these would also need Liberation-resolutions.

OOC

Japan was, luckily, raided successfully by raiders, not griefers. And they have left already.
Stargate, on the other hand, was successfully defended by TITO. The current WA delegate is a TITO member who has not instituted a password.

In both cases, there would be no need for a Liberation proposal, because the delegate in each case hasn't/hadn't instituted a password.

I was thinking hypothetically. Hence the "suppose"..

[West-Flanders]

@ Urgench: Are you always in that a bad mood?

[Urgench]

@ Urgench: Are you always in that a bad mood?

No. Are you always this flippant and arrogant ?

[Martyrdoom]

haha touche.

[Charlotte Ryberg]

Our pressure on the invaders have paid off, honoured ambassadors and all at the Security Council. The defeated invaders could not fend off those who waited patiently, then moved in just like that.

Our vote remains FOR because we desire for Belgium to adopt and open-to-all policy, noting the importance of its geographical location and its own chocolates, which the Ryberg traders have reported to have placed orders for the first time since the invasion. The biggest thanks go to my friend Todd McCloud for executing the resistance action plan. Like the Trojan Horse thing where you pose as a Macedon and trick them into letting you into the region. Our overseas ambassador, The Belgian Rybergs would like to oversee the rebuilding of the region.

Next stop, the Czech Republic (using a method I will reveal later) and Pakistan.

[Travancore-Cochin]

Next stop, the Czech Republic

OOC

Czech Republic already has a founder, how exactly do you propose to liberate it?

[Good Housekeeping]

It's gonna be up to the WA to clear up this mess, guys. We're not your janitors.

West-Flanders certainly has alot to do. But that comes with the chores of being the delegate. Obviously if the natives of Belgium really feel that defenders aren't serving their interests, maybe they can hook-up with the raiders to restore their control. Of course, this is assuming that there weren't any natives as a part of the defense/liberation force.

Raiders/invaders should feel good that their supremacy has prompted what has essentially become a game mechanism change. Of course like the decision to remove the password may have negative implications for defenders, institution of these 'liberation resolutions' throughout NS will ultimate kill off raiding.

Just my two cents but raiders should consider to tactically pull back from the ejection of natives, lest similar resolutions in Chicago and elsewhere will otherwise surely pass.

[Martyrdoom]

Next stop, the Czech Republic

OOC

Czech Republic already has a founder, how exactly do you propose to liberate it?

The usual. Petition loudly to get the rules changed so it suits them. The very fact Belgium had the chance and the mechanisms to defend itself before invasion allied to the fact that it was actaully liberated without a successful liberation proposal using intrigue shows the redundancy of liberation.

[The Sedge]

Next stop, the Czech Republic

OOC

Czech Republic already has a founder, how exactly do you propose to liberate it?

The usual. Petition loudly to get the rules changed so it suits them. The very fact Belgium had the chance and the mechanisms to defend itself before invasion allied to the fact that it was actaully liberated without a successful liberation proposal using intrigue shows the redundancy of liberation.

Its not always that one can find out the password to a region. Look at Chicago, Pakistan, Feudal Japan or the now re-founded San Francisco Bay Area. Defenders couldn't get the password to those regions, another solution was needed - the Liberation type resolution is that.