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by Darkesia » Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:10 pm
by Urgench » Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:15 pm
Darkesia wrote:Don't take it personally, dude. Now who is paranoid?
I hate rules lawyering. Hate it in the GA. Hate it IRL. Hate it in TWP community forums. I avoid TNP because they get off on it too. It's just the way I am. It's why I'm a gameplayer and not a GAer.
I am involved with 3WB because it was pointed out to me that in the midst of my region's debate over how to handle roleplay SC resolutions, the rules were changed in a manner which belittled our play style.
Yes, I hate the GA. But I thought that was the whole idea of splitting the SC off; the GAers can't stand us either.
by Darkesia » Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:21 pm
by Krioval » Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:25 pm
Whamabama wrote:Rules Lawyering is a waste of time. Simply arguing over some words till a mod comes by and tells us, It's illegal, because they don't like it or whatever is not fun, nor desired. We have been through this with "condemn rule 4"
So it's more to do with what's the point of the Security council if nobody can use it? We can't draft a resolution because they are illegal, and we won't let any pass because they are legal.
My biggest concern is I have yet to see our voices being heard by the MODS. I have seen them listen to the GA folks when they didn't like the SC in the first place, and I would say that is a good thing, and while the MODS have been in the threads here, and responding, I have yet to see them really listen to what we want, and are unwilling to see our side, or work with us in a real way.
So I don't see us moving an inch either.
by Urgench » Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:30 pm
Darkesia wrote:Oh forgodssake man! Must you twist and mar every little thing posted to mean something it doesn't. You are not an idiot. Therefore I am assuming your willful "misinterpretation" of my words is just done to piss me off. Congrats. You did it.
And if you had bothered to read the far far far too many posts I have made in these tedious, stupid arguments, you would know exactly what I feel is discriminatory.
However, I understand if you don't read my posts. I seldom read yours. I think you can understand why after this "conversation"
by Metania » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:14 pm
by NERVUN » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:17 pm
by Whamabama » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:18 pm
Krioval wrote:
Problem is, no set of specific prohibitions will ever address a given problem because someone will ultimately do something borderline and retreat behind "but the rules didn't specifically say I can't say that". I've never seen a mod delete a proposal "because they don't like it". I have disagreed with proposal deletions in the past, but I would not categorize them in that way.
Whose fault is that? Certainly it's not mine, as I've voted for and against about the same number of SC resolutions (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about this).
Have you read the list of GA proposal rules? Proposals can be declared illegal and deleted for many, many reasons, some of which I might disagree with from time to time. Saying that the mods somehow listen more to what "the GA folks" - we're hardly a monolithic group over there - want is to be ignorant of what the mods do and don't do. They enforce a massive list of restrictions on GA proposals. Those of us who are more active in GA affairs tend to be those who have adapted most readily to the rules and are able to transmit that information onto newer players - we don't receive preferential treatment from the mods as part of participating in the GA.
Well, forgive me for thinking that such comments represent a certain degree of petulance and inflexibility, given the number of inches that other player groups in NS have ceded over the years.
by Omigodtheykilledkenny » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:18 pm
Metania wrote:*snip*
by NERVUN » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:21 pm
Whamabama wrote:My biggest concern is I have yet to see our voices being heard by the MODS. I have seen them listen to the GA folks when they didn't like the SC in the first place, and I would say that is a good thing, and while the MODS have been in the threads here, and responding, I have yet to see them really listen to what we want, and are unwilling to see our side, or work with us in a real way.
So I don't see us moving an inch either.
by Ardchoille » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:57 pm
Urgench wrote:Are you talking about me? I did refer to your true colours etc remember? It just rather suggests that you're here in this controversy because you hate a lot of other players of the game, I mean you admit yourself to not having been all that interested in the SC until recently. Could your expressed hatred of the GA and its players be a huge factor behind your nasty minded involvement in 3WB do you think? And nothing to do with your nonsense about GPers being persecuted?
Unibot wrote:<snip>Condemning a player for their personality, personal characteristics or supposedly poor expertise in their area of the game – at the discretion of a moderator – will be ruled trolling or flame-baiting, and thus illegal and actionable under the sites’ rules.
Entirely focusing a commendation on a player’s personality, personal characteristics or supposedly good expertise in their area of their game – at the discretion of a moderator – will be ruled as a category violation as it strays too far away from the category’s description to “recognize outstanding contribution(s)” which is not “recognize outstanding personalities” or any other similar but not indistinguishable variation of the latter.
Proposals should not refer to the personal characteristics of the player behind the nation ("good roleplayer" "always rude" "bad speller") but to NationStates actions.
Your reason is supposed to be an action that will cause “shock and dismay” to the international community (condemn) or “recognize outstanding contribution by a nation or region.” (commend).
by Kalibarr » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:00 pm
Omigodtheykilledkenny wrote:Metania wrote:*snip*
One, Darkesia is a she, and two, Urgench is not the one expressing blind hatred for an entire group of players. Whom do you think is being the more intolerant here?
by Callisdrun » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:09 pm
by Yelda » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:15 pm
Ardchoille wrote: Darkesia said she hated a particular forum on the game, not the individuals in it.
Kalibarr wrote:I hardly call that "blind hatred of a group of players"
Darkesia on TWP forum wrote:I wonder when the hell I am going to learn that those people will only make me hate them more each time I attempt to make reasoned contact with them.
What's wrong with me? Why can't I just give it up? Why do I go back for more reinforcement on how much I loathe them? It's not like they are going to change.
by Callisdrun » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:18 pm
Topid wrote:Thank god Rule IV fixed that problem! Oh wait, NO it didn't, in fact even less roleplayers post in this sub-forum now than ever, I'd say if anything this Rule has completely driven out everyone other than Gameplayers. The fact is prior to this rule, whether you can bare it or not, the gameplay community got along very well with what little roleplay community we had here and was trying to get more roleplayers interested. That is gone, the communities are back to never speaking.Urgench wrote:That in fact the SC has failed to have the wider appeal you're talking about thus far is a symptom of the way it has been monopolised by GP and that its resolutions thus far have been written in the language of one player group and have been to one degree or another unintelligible or meaningless to a large segment of the rest of the membership of the WA, the handful of lack luster RP based C&Cs not withstanding.
The 'language' has nothing to do with why this bodies most active members are gameplayers. Everyone but gameplayers decided they didn't want to use this feature when it was released... Including yourself. (And of course the very few RPers and Generalites that did stay.) Changing the language isn't going to change that.
by Omigodtheykilledkenny » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:19 pm
Callisdrun wrote:I really don't like AMOM, but a poem can be in character, and I don't see how an ode is inappropriate for a commendation. It's just very... um... old school... going back to bards and such.
There be a sillious among us today,
Among us today in the great WA,
Who brightens our day when our day has gone gray,
With proposals and humor and Knootian “gay-spray,”
His names be of many of his puppet empire,
Like Yelda or Hiriaurtung or New Leicestershire,
And Mad Sheep and Glog and Aundotutunagir,
With syllables so strange and so marvelous to hear,
Iron Felix was once a prized face of he,
With its rather keen interest in necromancy,
And its massive devotion to the NSUN,
In the days before the World Assemblian opium den,
Lately we see him with Arororugul,
Assuring that things here will never grow dull,
He also was present with Mad Sheep Railgun,
Keeping things thoughtful yet awfully fun,
He amuseth us greatly with that he creates,
Such as the insertion of popcorn in serious debates,
Our good old friend Yelda will often play the big fool,
Thus helping things from growing too nasty and cruel,
His resolutions be many and proposals be more,
Nineteen have been passed and more are in store,
Clever they are whether helpful they may be,
And some give a great laugh to both you and me,
While silly he can seem and mock he may do,
Great wisdom and insight does sometimes break through,
Analogies and comments on intentions and deeds,
And in enlightening minds he often succeeds,
So come one and come all, witness this spectacular man,
As he entertains the WA however he can,
We dance a jig of jubilant joy,
In honor of a truly hilarious boy,
A pat on the back and a cheer of acclaim,
While we give good old Yelda his moment of fame,
Remembering you since nearly antiquity,
Yelda, the World Assembly hereby does COMMEND thee.
by Omigodtheykilledkenny » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:19 pm
Callisdrun wrote:Topid wrote:*snip*
No, 3WB has driven everyone out. We don't post because it's futile to do so. No resolutions are going to pass, so why bother?
It's done just what you want it to do, I suppose, in making the SC your own little gameplayer fiefdom.
I hope that's not really what you guys want, but that's the way it really seems right now. Why do you hate us so much?
by Callisdrun » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:20 pm
by Kandarin » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:24 pm
Callisdrun wrote:Ah, but can't nations also be personified? Especially in an artistic medium?
I wish I remember who wrote:Games like Nationstates are like a big cardboard box, and there are two kinds of people in the world. The kind who look at the empty void inside the box and ask "Where the hell is it?" and the kind who jump into the box with their friends and make it into a fort, or a spaceship.
by NERVUN » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:25 pm
Yelda wrote:Ardchoille wrote: Darkesia said she hated a particular forum on the game, not the individuals in it.Kalibarr wrote:I hardly call that "blind hatred of a group of players"
I beg to differ.Darkesia on TWP forum wrote:I wonder when the hell I am going to learn that those people will only make me hate them more each time I attempt to make reasoned contact with them.
What's wrong with me? Why can't I just give it up? Why do I go back for more reinforcement on how much I loathe them? It's not like they are going to change.
by Glen-Rhodes » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:26 pm
Darkesia wrote:There is a reason I do not participate over in the GA. I don't hide my distaste for the whole thing. You've just noticed?
by Omigodtheykilledkenny » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:27 pm
NERVUN wrote:But what happens off NS is off our beat.
by Sedgistan » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:30 pm
Ardchoille wrote:If you have others, the tone should be more "here's how you do it" than "mods will get you with this specific penalty if you don't do it". It's a different verbal feel than the more prescriptive and rigorous rules of the GA.
by Yelda » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:36 pm
NERVUN wrote:Yelda wrote:Ardchoille wrote: Darkesia said she hated a particular forum on the game, not the individuals in it.Kalibarr wrote:I hardly call that "blind hatred of a group of players"
I beg to differ.Darkesia on TWP forum wrote:I wonder when the hell I am going to learn that those people will only make me hate them more each time I attempt to make reasoned contact with them.
What's wrong with me? Why can't I just give it up? Why do I go back for more reinforcement on how much I loathe them? It's not like they are going to change.
But what happens off NS is off our beat.
by NERVUN » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:08 pm
Sedgistan wrote:Ardchoille wrote:If you have others, the tone should be more "here's how you do it" than "mods will get you with this specific penalty if you don't do it". It's a different verbal feel than the more prescriptive and rigorous rules of the GA.
I might be reading this wrong, but does the C&C Rules thread not say "Four things will get your proposal killed as soon as it hits the floor:", and then list the four rules - which are all things you shouldn't do in a proposal? The way that Unibot wrote his suggestion (as far as I can see), it could slot into that thread instead of Rule 4, and would fit the tone/style of writing perfectly...
If this post comes across as sounding rude, thats not the intention - I'm just genuinely a bit confused.
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