[PASSED] Liberate Confederacy of Layem

[Phillippeland]

If you don't want to be associated with bigots, why do you continue to be in regions with them? It would be in your best interests to join a region that doesn't contain such problematic elements.

Most of us in Layem consider it as a friend group instead of a region. Just because we don’t agree with Maur’s views doesn’t mean that we have to unfriend him. Transphobia may be frowned upon by most of the NS community (including me) but it’s not a reason to abandon our friends

Oh this too

[Thousand Branches]

Or is it.

No because it definitely is?

[New Hualonia]

As a left-leaning member of Layem and the new delegate of the new region Concord I personally like many in my region would like to not be lumped in to the bigoted, and transphobic rhetoric that the Communist Bloc and other left wing regions have been painting us as. As for your plans to wipe the right off the map while I admire it the effects you think it will have will frankly be the opposite of what you want. The hateful will only feel justified by being silenced and the only victims will be those who choose to engage them civilly and in a truly Democratic way. I urge you all to get off of your high horses and see that hate only begets hate and that your actions will only embolden other frankly worse regions to see Layem as a martyr. I bid you all farewell and urge for peace amongst the whole of Nationstates.

Apart from the fact that your assessments about how to handle bigotry are critically wrong (see Honeydew’s post), the call for peace here is insanely ironic.

As Andusre mentioned previously, about a year ago Layem was subject to a delegacy tip population to break its streak. The LDF abstained from the operation and declined to join - a decision I made specifically because I did not not feel like inviting an unsavory or vitriolic reaction from Layem. Yet Layem still insisted we were involved, which was demonstrably false, and continued to pester and infiltrate us for it.

There is no genuine interest in peace.

And there was never a war in the first place.

[WayNeacTia]

2) I’ve stepped outside of my bedroom and realized not everyone has the same views I do and it’s my job to convince them that they are wrong ;P

And the larger community you are part of has deemed those views as unacceptable (just like in real life). If you continue to be part of that regional community, you can be blacklisted by the larger community. Your choice…..

[New Astri]

Two reasons: 1) they do actually value free speech and debate something I get the feeling left-leaning regions do not which is unfortunate because the world is better when people understand each other. And 2) I’ve stepped outside of my bedroom and realized not everyone has the same views I do and it’s my job to convince them that they are wrong ;P

it's always funny to me when people use the "WE value free speech and leftist regions don't, ha!" gotcha. like, true--i straight up do not care about allowing bigots free speech. in fact, the entire main sphere of ns doesn't. even the non-political/politically diverse major regions don't allow free speech for bigots. hateful people don't deserve our understanding. it's not a Sick Own to bring up that we don't value free speech for everyone, because, like...true. we don't.

[Phillippeland]

2) I’ve stepped outside of my bedroom and realized not everyone has the same views I do and it’s my job to convince them that they are wrong ;P

And the larger community you are part of has deemed those views as unacceptable (just like in real life). If you continue to be part of that regional community, you can be blacklisted by the larger community. Your choice…..

And this is why I defend my region because it’s comply or die outside of it you all should be ashamed of yourselves. Equality can’t exist without debate and I’m not going to attempt to convince you that freedom is a thing either.

[Layema]

2) I’ve stepped outside of my bedroom and realized not everyone has the same views I do and it’s my job to convince them that they are wrong ;P

And the larger community you are part of has deemed those views as unacceptable (just like in real life). If you continue to be part of that regional community, you can be blacklisted by the larger community. Your choice…..

Two reasons: 1) they do actually value free speech and debate something I get the feeling left-leaning regions do not which is unfortunate because the world is better when people understand each other. And 2) I’ve stepped outside of my bedroom and realized not everyone has the same views I do and it’s my job to convince them that they are wrong ;P

it's always funny to me when people use the "WE value free speech and leftist regions don't, ha!" gotcha. like, true--i straight up do not care about allowing bigots free speech. in fact, the entire main sphere of ns doesn't. even the non-political/politically diverse major regions don't allow free speech for bigots. hateful people don't deserve our understanding. it's not a Sick Own to bring up that we don't value free speech for everyone, because, like...true. we don't.

I'm confused about how we are hateful? Who are the ones hunting down opposing regions based off of political and social viewpoints? Like your reasoning is so flawed and lacks any actual basis. We're "hateful" and "sick". Is that the best you got? This is why no one will ever actually convert or reason with you in the Layem-sphere regions because you don't actually have a point. We're always open to political discussion but when it comes to the people who are "good" and "right" you guys throw insults and bans. You're not the good guys, you're not right, and you won't beat the "hateful" and "sick" people off this site by complaining about it and calling us names. Hail Layem, Glory to Concord.

[Evil Mother]

Or is it.

No because it definitely is?

That’s what I meant, sorry if that was unclear. You should not accept your "friends" being transphobic under any circumstances

[Phillippeland]

Two reasons: 1) they do actually value free speech and debate something I get the feeling left-leaning regions do not which is unfortunate because the world is better when people understand each other. And 2) I’ve stepped outside of my bedroom and realized not everyone has the same views I do and it’s my job to convince them that they are wrong ;P

it's always funny to me when people use the "WE value free speech and leftist regions don't, ha!" gotcha. like, true--i straight up do not care about allowing bigots free speech. in fact, the entire main sphere of ns doesn't. even the non-political/politically diverse major regions don't allow free speech for bigots. hateful people don't deserve our understanding. it's not a Sick Own to bring up that we don't value free speech for everyone, because, like...true. we don't.

And that’s the problem you should you’d find that if you listen to what these bigots say you can maybe try to convince them to not be bigots. Besides any harmful speech is stricken down by the moderators quickly so I really fail to see the need for you to take action into your own hands.

[Thousand Branches]

No because it definitely is?

That’s what I meant, sorry if that was unclear. You should not accept your "friends" being transphobic under any circumstances

No yeah sorry I was agreeing with you there

[New Astri]

snip

honestly i'm just like. confused about why you're still trying to argue at this point? like, you're already infamous for your beliefs and actions, there's no one you're going to be able to convince into thinking yr even remotely innocent here. you know good and well why you're called hateful, we know good and well why you're called hateful, there's not really a point in pretending otherwise.

[Mauroa]

snip

honestly i'm just like. confused about why you're still trying to argue at this point? like, you're already infamous for your beliefs and actions, there's no one you're going to be able to convince into thinking yr even remotely innocent here. you know good and well why you're called hateful, we know good and well why you're called hateful, there's not really a point in pretending otherwise.

And you missed the entire point of my reply lmao. Go figure.

[RiderSyl]

honestly i'm just like. confused about why you're still trying to argue at this point? like, you're already infamous for your beliefs and actions, there's no one you're going to be able to convince into thinking yr even remotely innocent here. you know good and well why you're called hateful, we know good and well why you're called hateful, there's not really a point in pretending otherwise.

And you missed the entire point of my reply lmao. Go figure.

You didn't have one.

[Ataral]

Transphobia may be frowned upon by most of the NS community (including me) but it’s not a reason to abandon our friends

except it is 100% a reason to abandon your friends?

[WayNeacTia]

And the larger community you are part of has deemed those views as unacceptable (just like in real life). If you continue to be part of that regional community, you can be blacklisted by the larger community. Your choice…..

And this is why I defend my region because it’s comply or die outside of it you all should be ashamed of yourselves. Equality can’t exist without debate and I’m not going to attempt to convince you that freedom is a thing either.

How is hating on a group of people because of their sexual alignment, equality in any way? I quite enjoy my freedom thanks and I believe everyone should have that right, not just people who align with a certain sexual preference, or religious choice....

[Non-Exploding Cupcake]

Two reasons: 1) they do actually value free speech and debate something I get the feeling left-leaning regions do not which is unfortunate because the world is better when people understand each other. And 2) I’ve stepped outside of my bedroom and realized not everyone has the same views I do and it’s my job to convince them that they are wrong ;P

it's always funny to me when people use the "WE value free speech and leftist regions don't, ha!" gotcha. like, true--i straight up do not care about allowing bigots free speech. in fact, the entire main sphere of ns doesn't. even the non-political/politically diverse major regions don't allow free speech for bigots. hateful people don't deserve our understanding. it's not a Sick Own to bring up that we don't value free speech for everyone, because, like...true. we don't.

The free speech thing is interesting because despite the widely quoted "It's free speech, right?" line from the NS FAQ, the site owner nevertheless comes very close to being a free speech absolutist and seems to believe all viewpoints deserve an equal chance to be debated in the marketplace of ideas or whatever. I can't imagine it was easy for the mods to institute the existing "common sense" free speech restrictions on explicit topics or promotion of Nazism etc. Whereas from the point of view of the community, yeah, it's fairly obvious that most of us do support restricting people's free speech if their political ideologies will harm us, or people we care about, personally.

On a more personal note, during the years I was an active contributor to the site, admitting to being trans or gender-nonconforming in any respect would make you, at best, a constant target for mockery and vilification within a community, and at worst outright banned from it. The most accepting place on the site back then was probably NSG, which was substantially the same as it is today (except with somewhat more off-topic casual threads of the "Sexiest NSer"/"What have you learned today?" variety). At one point I ran a poll on NSG on trans acceptance in which the total proportion of respondents that stated they could ever theoretically accept a trans person was around 20%. To see the position we're in today, where anti-trans people feel they are a tiny persecuted minority lost in an inexorable tide of wokeness or whatever (which the SC votes seem to bear out), is genuinely remarkable, and is probably the largest single change I've seen in site culture.

No involvement in gameplay stuff otherwise—doubt I ever will do so—but yeah. Just some thoughts on seeing the current resolution at vote.

[New Astri]

To see the position we're in today, where anti-trans people feel they are a tiny persecuted minority lost in an inexorable tide of wokeness or whatever (which the SC votes seem to bear out), is genuinely remarkable, and is probably the largest single change I've seen in site culture.

No involvement in gameplay stuff otherwise—doubt I ever will do so—but yeah. Just some thoughts on seeing the current resolution at vote.

fucking rad, i legitimately would have never guessed it was that bad. but i guess that's all internet in the past, huh? this liberation & raid will be a fantastic part of keeping the anti-transphobia movement on here goin.

And you missed the entire point of my reply lmao. Go figure.

You didn't have one.

i think his point was supposed to be "no guys please i swear it's actually Good and Equality to give transphobes platforms," or something else inane like that. it's times like this where ns essentially being social media with pvp enabled is very funny--imagine if facebook let you vote to un-private someone's group, storm in, and personally edit/suppress it all just because you really think their opinions suck?

[Onionist Randosia]

To see the position we're in today, where anti-trans people feel they are a tiny persecuted minority lost in an inexorable tide of wokeness or whatever (which the SC votes seem to bear out), is genuinely remarkable, and is probably the largest single change I've seen in site culture.

No involvement in gameplay stuff otherwise—doubt I ever will do so—but yeah. Just some thoughts on seeing the current resolution at vote.

fucking rad, i legitimately would have never guessed it was that bad. but i guess that's all internet in the past, huh? this liberation & raid will be a fantastic part of keeping the anti-transphobia movement on here goin.

You didn't have one.

i think his point was supposed to be "no guys please i swear it's actually Good and Equality to give transphobes platforms," or something else inane like that. it's times like this where ns essentially being social media with pvp enabled is very funny--imagine if facebook let you vote to un-private someone's group, storm in, and personally edit/suppress it all just because you really think their opinions suck?

'NS is essentially social media with pvp enabled' LMAO extremely good description
Also the free speech argument is very old by this point. Like, free speech is good, but hate speech is emphatically not. There is a difference between the two. Abusing the priviledge of free speech does not give you the right to use free speech as an excuse.

[Mauroa]

And this is why I defend my region because it’s comply or die outside of it you all should be ashamed of yourselves. Equality can’t exist without debate and I’m not going to attempt to convince you that freedom is a thing either.

How is hating on a group of people because of their sexual alignment, equality in any way? I quite enjoy my freedom thanks and I believe everyone should have that right, not just people who align with a certain sexual preference, or religious choice....

I actually hate the sin not the sinner. I rarely bring up my religious beliefs but for some reason it's always brought up in NSGP...

Keep thinking I hate your or transgender people if it makes you feel any better. The region of Trans will be taken down if the Catholic region of Sanctum has its LGBTQIA propaganda removed.

[WayNeacTia]

Also the free speech argument is very old by this point. Like, free speech is good, but hate speech is emphatically not. There is a difference between the two. Abusing the priviledge of free speech does not give you the right to use free speech as an excuse.

Which is precisely why hate speech isn't protected speech in any country which has a list of guaranteed rights in it's constitution.....

The region of Trans will be taken down if the Catholic region of Sanctum has its LGBTQIA propaganda removed.

Nah.... We'll just take down Trans ourselves. It is only a matter of time Sunshine....

[Xoriet]

Keep thinking I hate your or transgender people if it makes you feel any better. The region of Trans will be taken down if the Catholic region of Sanctum has its LGBTQIA propaganda removed.

I don't see that happening in any future in which the region is held by this group. You don't have the equipment to conduct effective gunboat diplomacy.

[Artevenia]

Keep thinking I hate your or transgender people if it makes you feel any better. The region of Trans will be taken down if the Catholic region of Sanctum has its LGBTQIA propaganda removed.

Sounds like the last time I pointed out about the rhetoric about "the Left", as soon as I pointed out some things he said something similar. Despite how much he attempts to do stuff like this, we're not fooled

[Home Box Office]

Keep thinking I hate your or transgender people if it makes you feel any better. The region of Trans will be taken down if the Catholic region of Sanctum has its LGBTQIA propaganda removed.

Sounds like the last time I pointed out about the rhetoric about "the Left", as soon as I pointed out some things he said something similar. Despite how much he attempts to do stuff like this, we're not fooled

I'm confused what exactly am I doing and what am I trying to fool you on. I've been nothing but straight forward lol

[Artevenia]

Do not play ignorant here. You are very far from straightforward, and I've seen this tactic before. (For the record, I was talking on Savonir, another nation of mine)

[Home Box Office]

Do not play ignorant here. You are very far from straightforward, and I've seen this tactic before. (For the record, I was talking on Savonir, another nation of mine)

Stop trying to hide the misdeeds you have committed, Artevenia. We all know who you are and you're honestly not tricking anyone on this forum. You don't fool anyone here by trying to act innocent in this situation, or even more act like you are right by calling me out. Fix your own problems before you come after me.