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Wrapper
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Postby Wrapper » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:12 pm

And yet, this is a World Assembly.

As always, it depends on context. For example, in the Siwale commendation that's been proposed, it's legal: "Recognizing the immense contributions Siwale has made to the world of NationStates." On the other hand, starting a proposal with "To the World Assembly" would be illegal.
Last edited by Wrapper on Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:17 pm

Wrapper wrote:And yet, this is a World Assembly.

As always, it depends on context. For example, in the Siwale commendation that's been proposed, it's legal: "Recognizing the immense contributions Siwale has made to the world of NationStates." On the other hand, starting a proposal with "To the World Assembly" would be illegal.

Wouldn't that be more of a violation for not speaking from the perspective of the WA?
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Wrapper
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Postby Wrapper » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:19 pm

The latter, yes, the former, no.

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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:18 am

Wrapper wrote:On the other hand, starting a proposal with "To the World Assembly" would be illegal.


That’s a very strict interpretation of 4.D, no? I mean there’s a lot of variety in practice in the introduction clause, “to the WA,” or “The WA,” or Assembled Nations of the World (if you’re SP.)

For instance, you could interpret the “to the WA” as meaning “It is the opinion of the WA,” like “To me,” means “In my opinion.”

Or “To the World Assembly,” could be the WA addressing the future WA - since resolutions are written for, and enforced upon posterity.

In the event of reasonable ambiguity present, the generous interpretation - as far as Rule IV is concerned - is usually held valid.
Last edited by Unibot III on Sun Nov 11, 2018 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wrapper
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Postby Wrapper » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:27 am

Unibot III wrote:
Wrapper wrote:On the other hand, starting a proposal with "To the World Assembly" would be illegal.


That’s a very strict interpretation of 4.D, no? I mean there’s a lot of variety in practice in the introduction clause, “to the WA,” or “The WA,” or Assembled Nations of the World (if you’re SP.)

How can a proposal be from the point of view of the WA if it's addressed to the WA?

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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Sun Nov 11, 2018 1:30 pm

Wrapper wrote:
Unibot III wrote:
That’s a very strict interpretation of 4.D, no? I mean there’s a lot of variety in practice in the introduction clause, “to the WA,” or “The WA,” or Assembled Nations of the World (if you’re SP.)

How can a proposal be from the point of view of the WA if it's addressed to the WA?


Sorry, I had more to say in a subsequent draft of that post. >_<
Last edited by Unibot III on Sun Nov 11, 2018 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008 | Former Delegate of The Rejected Realms | Gameplay Alignment: -18 / -13
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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:51 pm

Wrapper wrote:Forum and dispatch links are not allowed. Only links that are legal are the nation and region tags, and links to previous GA or SC resolutions, including repealed resolutions.


I'd just like to raise issue with this rules interpretation - not so much an issue so much as a request to reconsider it. Wrapper is completely right, of course, for years links have been found illegal except in cases where [nation], [region] tags or links to proposals. I do feel though this is a case where a narrow ruling has snowballed into a full-fledged, separate rule that lacks a justification. The basis of the GA ruleset reforms was culling rules that were on the books for reasons that had developed over time and the reasons had been forgotten, made irrelevant, deprecated etc.

Sedge ruled against links in resolutions at a time when you couldn't make internal links in NationStates, people were putting written urls in resolution text which was a blatant violation of Rule IV because having a url written down breaks the fourth wall obviously. Regional and national tags were never deemed a violation of R4; in fact they were encouraged because they assisted a text's readability and accessibility.

We know there are cases where clauses are written in ambiguous language to clear R4, links to dispatches and forum threads could be helpful in informing readers as to what the author is actually attempting to refer to. I don't believe that the existing link rule has any relevance to Rule I, Rule II, Rule III, or Rule IV, given links are not deemed to break the 4th Wall in other "kinds" of links. We have a case here were the actual rule is as holey as swiss cheese - it doesn't apply to WA links or Nation links or Regional Links, only other internal links.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008 | Former Delegate of The Rejected Realms | Gameplay Alignment: -18 / -13
Unibotian Factbook // An Analysis of NationStates Generations // The Gameplay Alignment Test // NS Weather // How do I join the UDL? // The Transpacific Trade
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Bears Armed
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Postby Bears Armed » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:01 am

Unibot III wrote:
Wrapper wrote:Forum and dispatch links are not allowed. Only links that are legal are the nation and region tags, and links to previous GA or SC resolutions, including repealed resolutions.


I'd just like to raise issue with this rules interpretation - not so much an issue so much as a request to reconsider it. Wrapper is completely right, of course, for years links have been found illegal except in cases where [nation], [region] tags or links to proposals. I do feel though this is a case where a narrow ruling has snowballed into a full-fledged, separate rule that lacks a justification.

Forum links could become useless gibberish in the event of another change of forums. Imagine if links to Jolt had been allowed...
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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:12 am

And Dispatches are far more easily deletable than forum posts are
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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:52 pm

Bears Armed wrote:
Unibot III wrote:
I'd just like to raise issue with this rules interpretation - not so much an issue so much as a request to reconsider it. Wrapper is completely right, of course, for years links have been found illegal except in cases where [nation], [region] tags or links to proposals. I do feel though this is a case where a narrow ruling has snowballed into a full-fledged, separate rule that lacks a justification.

Forum links could become useless gibberish in the event of another change of forums. Imagine if links to Jolt had been allowed...


We already do introduce links to text without any guarantee that they will remain valid links though. For instance, resolutions refer to nations and regions that can CTE or be refounded by entirely new players with a new agenda and reputation. Some resolutions from 2009 have upwards of fifteen dead links each - it happens, time sweeps away things.

Links do not change the semantical meaning of the text, whether it is a valid link or not shouldn't be the biggest concern here, since the links just serve a supplementary role to help inform the reader - that this supplementary nature may not continue indefinitely is not a major risk to the overall validity of resolutions in the long term.

Links help inform readers in the here and now, especially when Rule IV tends to contort the overall readability of clauses without supplementary guidance. One of the challenges of Rule IV has always been that the main motivation behind the rules change was to ensure resolutions were accessible texts to non-gameplayers unfamiliar with gameplay jargon, but the result of eschewing jargon is resolution texts can become almost unintelligible without assistance because the alternative to game jargon is often more unclear and evasive than the initial jargon!

We already use nation/region links to guide the reader through the text where the meaning may be unclear, forum and dispatch links would greatly assist in readability and linking resolution text to tangible evidence.
Last edited by Unibot III on Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:02 am, edited 5 times in total.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008 | Former Delegate of The Rejected Realms | Gameplay Alignment: -18 / -13
Unibotian Factbook // An Analysis of NationStates Generations // The Gameplay Alignment Test // NS Weather // How do I join the UDL? // The Transpacific Trade
Paradise Found // The Unibotian Life Expectancy Index // Proudly Authored 9 GA Res., 14 SC Res. // Commended by SC#78 // The Polysemes of Nativeness;

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Oxes Republic
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Postby Oxes Republic » Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:48 pm

So can you mention in game activities like raiding in a Security Council Proposal?
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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:56 pm

Oxes Republic wrote:So can you mention in game activities like raiding in a Security Council Proposal?

Yes, provided it is couched in terms of nations doing it rather than the players behind the nations
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Third Asopia
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Postby Third Asopia » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:01 am

How long must a proposal be to be considered a proposal? And, is it okay if I base my commendation because of a particular topic only? (i.e. Contribution to SC ONLY)
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Lenlyvit
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Postby Lenlyvit » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:01 am

Is mention of region tags illegal under R4(c)?
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Wrapper
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Postby Wrapper » Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:39 am

Third Asopia wrote:How long must a proposal be to be considered a proposal? And, is it okay if I base my commendation because of a particular topic only? (i.e. Contribution to SC ONLY)

There is no brevity limit from a legality standpoint but your proposal must be legal according to the proposal rules; e.g., it must have a unique and relevant argument, it must have an active clause, etc. That said, for commendations/condemnations, the less commend/condemn worthy material in your proposal, the less likely it will pass.

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Wrapper
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Postby Wrapper » Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:48 am

Lenlyvit wrote:Is mention of region tags illegal under R4(c)?

Since “tag raid”/“tag raiding” is legal, by extension “tag”/“tags” should also be legal.

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Third Asopia
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Third Asopia » Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:46 pm

Wrapper wrote:
Third Asopia wrote:How long must a proposal be to be considered a proposal? And, is it okay if I base my commendation because of a particular topic only? (i.e. Contribution to SC ONLY)

There is no brevity limit from a legality standpoint but your proposal must be legal according to the proposal rules; e.g., it must have a unique and relevant argument, it must have an active clause, etc. That said, for commendations/condemnations, the less commend/condemn worthy material in your proposal, the less likely it will pass.

Okie dokie.
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Procrastination... is the art of knowing you have a job to do but know there's like a year till it's due. It's elemental for the Asopin soul to survive in such a slow-paced world.
Bored of having to see Juventus winning the Schudetto too many times? Can wait to see that match where Ronaldo didn’t shoot at all? Tired of seeing Napoli fight for first place when there’s no point? Oh boy, you’ve found a new friend.

I got Theo Theodoridis as my flag model. Showing my love for Greece!

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Lenlyvit
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Lenlyvit » Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:24 am

In This Thread the op and Jocospor have admitted that the proposal is intended as an April Fools day joke proposal. I think that warrants an illegal ruling as a joke proposal right?
Last edited by Lenlyvit on Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bhang Bhang Duc
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Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:00 am

Lenlyvit wrote:In This Thread the op and Jocospor have admitted that the proposal is intended as an April Fools day joke proposal. I think that warrants an illegal ruling as a joke proposal right?

Reading the appropriate section in the rules Compendium I think that only applies to Commendation/Condemnation proposals which are more likely to be flamey/trollish and therefore not acceptable.

Both Wrapper and Ransium have marked it legal so the content has been deemed acceptable, even if the intent is otherwise.
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Wrapper
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Postby Wrapper » Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:10 am

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:
Lenlyvit wrote:In This Thread the op and Jocospor have admitted that the proposal is intended as an April Fools day joke proposal. I think that warrants an illegal ruling as a joke proposal right?

Reading the appropriate section in the rules Compendium I think that only applies to Commendation/Condemnation proposals which are more likely to be flamey/trollish and therefore not acceptable.

Both Wrapper and Ransium have marked it legal so the content has been deemed acceptable, even if the intent is otherwise.

Well said.

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United Massachusetts
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby United Massachusetts » Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:13 am

Lenlyvit wrote:In This Thread the op and Jocospor have admitted that the proposal is intended as an April Fools day joke proposal. I think that warrants an illegal ruling as a joke proposal right?

Per the precedent set by Liberate the East Pacific, I think it's fine.
Last edited by United Massachusetts on Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Wrapper
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Postby Wrapper » Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:16 am

United Massachusetts wrote: I rule it fine.

Next time you may want to consider using different wording, lest someone accuses you of moderator impersonation.

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United Massachusetts
Minister
 
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby United Massachusetts » Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:24 am

Wrapper wrote:
United Massachusetts wrote: I rule it fine.

Next time you may want to consider using different wording, lest someone accuses you of moderator impersonation.

Apologies. It wasn't my intention
United Massachusetts
World Assembly Mission

Pro-Life Social Democratic Catholic
Ambassador: Bishop Alexander Pierce

WA Affairs Minister, The East Pacific
Assistant: Father Carl Sullivan

Fmr. President, Right to Life
Queen Yuno wrote:You have a very contradictory rep yourself, [UM].
Sanctaria wrote:We get it. You're pro-life.
Davelands wrote:(UM tries to slip another one by)
Wallenburg wrote:You've got to be the most ignorant person on this Discord.
Davelands wrote:Remember that United Mass is extremely on the religious right side. Look for hidden gotcha's for later. He is playing a long game with proposals...
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Wallenburg
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Wallenburg » Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:57 am

United Massachusetts wrote:
Wrapper wrote:Next time you may want to consider using different wording, lest someone accuses you of moderator impersonation.

Apologies. It wasn't my intention

*smacks UM's wrist* Bad! No dessert for you.
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