NationStates

Full support.

All Wild Things wrote:

Insidium wrote:I've taken a look at the liberation text, and I don't see how it's supposed to "directly and primarily benefit a fascist nation or region," as the non-binding declaration (without the force of law) says.

You're right in that it doesn't "primarily" benefit fascist regions, but it does preserve their names forever in NS history. These regions don't deserve that. RL fascist regions should disappear completely from the record when they finally CTE.
If this passed in its current form, those regions can legitimately claim that the SC thinks they're important enough for a mention. And they're not.

I have a serious question as somebody who comes from an RL country where fascism caused an immense amount of damage and suffering: What does this sort of abolitio memoriae (or desire for it) actually accomplish?

One need not trawl SC resolutions to find current fascist regions, as there are searchable tags that will show them all. If the intent of the SC is to demonstrate approval/disapproval for an ideology, then liberations can do so much more strongly than C&Cs because they actually impact game mechanics and so the liberation feature should be utilized in such cases.

As for the idea that this will bring notoriety or fame to fascist regions, there needs to be a recognition that not all such fame is good fame. Adolf Hitler undoubtedly is one of the most notorious and famous people in history, but his fame is not a positive one and his supporters genuinely do remain small; additionally, such supporters who are users of this site are not likely to not be able to find a fascist region because the SC didn't mention them.

Additionally, such avoidance of names does little to actually benefit anti-fascism. Imagine if the German schools decided to continue to educate German children on anti-fascism, but only to do so in broad ideological terms so as to avoid giving continued fame to the dead Nazis; if such a child then finds a book of some sort that casts Joseph Goebbels in a positive light I would imagine they would be less easily able to question such a book than if their teachers had simply told them that Goebbels was a high-ranking Nazi official. In this sense, mentioning fascist regions serves as a sort of warning sign (for example, one cannot tell that 'Altmora' is fascist simply from the name); of course, some people will ignore the warning sign and some regions will make light of the fact that a sign is pointed at them, but that is not a reason to avoid making the sign any more than it is meaningless to call out an abusive person who is proud of their abusiveness.

In my opinion, trying to avoid mentioning fascist regions is more similar to the Arab practice of referring to Israel as "the Zionist entity" than it is to any meaningful anti-fascism; avoiding the name does little to nothing of substance. Genuine anti-fascism engages against fascism head-on without needing to engage in rhetorical dances to avoid directly acknowledging the enemy.

Full support of the resolution, by the way.

Poor captain Lard

Insidium wrote:

All Wild Things wrote:You're right in that it doesn't "primarily" benefit fascist regions, but it does preserve their names forever in NS history. These regions don't deserve that. RL fascist regions should disappear completely from the record when they finally CTE.

I don't see how this relates to SC#358.

OK, so Article II.4 reads:
"Every World Assembly Delegate is encouraged to approve and vote for Security Council proposals to impose sanctions against fascist regions, provided such proposals do not grant disproportionate attention to the region in question."
If someone writes a "Liberate <fascist region name>" proposal, with the intention of causing damage to that region, that is "imposing sanctions", and is encouraged.
If someone writes a "Condemn <fascist region name>" proposal, that is "granting disproportionate attention to the region in question."

This particular Liberation lists some fascist regions. They do not need to be named. It would be sufficient to simply call them "fascist regions". Now, while it's not "granting disproportionate attention to the region in question", it is "granting disproportionate attention" to those regions.
So it's against the spirit of SC358, but not the wording.

Xoriet wrote:There’s nothing beneficial about denouncing them as bad. Which this does. Because they are bad and should be censured and so should people allied to them.

Which is where I disagree with you. It seems pretty established that the SC would not Condemn a fascist region, which by definition is denouncing them as bad.

The North Polish Union wrote:

All Wild Things wrote:You're right in that it doesn't "primarily" benefit fascist regions, but it does preserve their names forever in NS history. These regions don't deserve that. RL fascist regions should disappear completely from the record when they finally CTE.
If this passed in its current form, those regions can legitimately claim that the SC thinks they're important enough for a mention. And they're not.

I have a serious question as somebody who comes from an RL country where fascism caused an immense amount of damage and suffering: What does this sort of abolitio memoriae (or desire for it) actually accomplish?

One need not trawl SC resolutions to find current fascist regions, as there are searchable tags that will show them all. If the intent of the SC is to demonstrate approval/disapproval for an ideology, then liberations can do so much more strongly than C&Cs because they actually impact game mechanics and so the liberation feature should be utilized in such cases.

As for the idea that this will bring notoriety or fame to fascist regions, there needs to be a recognition that not all such fame is good fame. Adolf Hitler undoubtedly is one of the most notorious and famous people in history, but his fame is not a positive one and his supporters genuinely do remain small; additionally, such supporters who are users of this site are not likely to not be able to find a fascist region because the SC didn't mention them.

Additionally, such avoidance of names does little to actually benefit anti-fascism. Imagine if the German schools decided to continue to educate German children on anti-fascism, but only to do so in broad ideological terms so as to avoid giving continued fame to the dead Nazis; if such a child then finds a book of some sort that casts Joseph Goebbels in a positive light I would imagine they would be less easily able to question such a book than if their teachers had simply told them that Goebbels was a high-ranking Nazi official. In this sense, mentioning fascist regions serves as a sort of warning sign (for example, one cannot tell that 'Altmora' is fascist simply from the name); of course, some people will ignore the warning sign and some regions will make light of the fact that a sign is pointed at them, but that is not a reason to avoid making the sign any more than it is meaningless to call out an abusive person who is proud of their abusiveness.

In my opinion, trying to avoid mentioning fascist regions is more similar to the Arab practice of referring to Israel as "the Zionist entity" than it is to any meaningful anti-fascism; avoiding the name does little to nothing of substance. Genuine anti-fascism engages against fascism head-on without needing to engage in rhetorical dances to avoid directly acknowledging the enemy.

Full support of the resolution, by the way.

Sure, but this is NS, not RL, and the context is different. The regions mentioned don't commit any atrocities. There have been literally hundreds, if not thousands, of fascist regions in NS. We don't preserve lists of them in the SC. Why should these ones get preserved?
As you say, real people need educated about Nazi Germany so that we can all try to ensure "never again". But there's no need to record the existence of some minor NS nazi voices.

"Genuine anti-fascism engages against fascism head-on"

I very much agree with you. Going off topic, the problem in NS is that the standard approach to anti-fascism is to raid a fascist region. For that to happen, first the founder must CTE (ie has lost interest in maintaining the region) or be deleted by a mod. So while the raid destroys the region, the raiders were in no meaningful way responsible for its downfall.
There are alternative in-game methods of engaging against fascism. For example, Barbaria is mentioned in this liberation. Barbaria has 170 embassies. If genuine diplomacy were used (rather than the typical NS aggression displayed by most NSGP commentators), then many of those embassy regions could be persuaded to close embassies. Does it destroy Barbaria? No, but it's a severe blow to their esteem. It's a tactic that worked on Genua, and Aryan Resistance.
Another example is the "Civil Defence Siren", which apparently sends automated TGs to all nations joining certain fascist regions.
Outside of Gameplay, constructively contributing to Moderation discussion threads such as the "Holocaust Denial" thread is another method. Overt nazism was banned on-site back in April. With suitable arguments and evidence, it may be possible to influence moderation standards further.

All Wild Things wrote:This particular Liberation lists some fascist regions. They do not need to be named. It would be sufficient to simply call them "fascist regions". Now, while it's not "granting disproportionate attention to the region in question", it is "granting disproportionate attention" to those regions.

Not all attention is disproportionate, and I think the "attention" given by naming fascist regions with which they have diplomatic ties is proportionate to the overall goal, which is to explain why Lardyland should be liberated.

Edit: Also, Polomon Islands, don't ever send unmarked recruitment telegrams to me (or anyone) again. You sent a manual telegram, specifically addressed to me, asking me to join the "Official United Nations." I don't appreciate you mislabeling your telegram in an effort to evade my telegram filter and reach me.

Xoriet wrote:And Unibot, a Tribunal for regions would be unnecessarily complicated since what passes judgment internationally is something getting to vote and seeing how that vote plays out. At that point you see what the overwhelming opinion is. Regions can condemn or rule in favor of the target at leisure and the ballots cast are quite public.

A condemnation is a mostly cosmetic instrument, a WA Liberation used in an offensive capacity has potentially permanant consequences for a region and should be used responsibly.

I think it's severely out of character for the WA to embrace "summary justice."

A public vote is no substitute for a tribunal. Major regions have disproportionate impact in the WA, it's not one-vote-for-all, nor can voters cannot be expected to research the conclusions in the resolution they've voting on. These weaknesses aren't necessarily a problem when the resolution is "Paid Leave Act" or "Commend Joe Bobs," but it is a problem when the resolution could result in the destruction/hawking/griefing of a region.

Worse still, there's no plan for what happens to Lardyland after it is liberated, there are assumptions about who may or may not try to do something or other with it, and that has in the past only ever resulted in blunders, confusion, and handwringing.

Joe Public is the tribunal already

Insidium wrote:Edit: Also, Polomon Islands, don't ever send unmarked recruitment telegrams to me (or anyone) again. You sent a manual telegram, specifically addressed to me, asking me to join the "Official United Nations." I don't appreciate you mislabeling your telegram in an effort to evade my telegram filter and reach me.

Recruitment telegrams that are not marked as such should be reported via the Getting Help page, as they are a violation of NationStates rules.

Goobergunchia wrote:

Insidium wrote:Edit: Also, Polomon Islands, don't ever send unmarked recruitment telegrams to me (or anyone) again. You sent a manual telegram, specifically addressed to me, asking me to join the "Official United Nations." I don't appreciate you mislabeling your telegram in an effort to evade my telegram filter and reach me.

Recruitment telegrams that are not marked as such should be reported via the Getting Help page, as they are a violation of NationStates rules.

I already did — thanks for the advice.

All Wild Things wrote:

The North Polish Union wrote:I have a serious question as somebody who comes from an RL country where fascism caused an immense amount of damage and suffering: What does this sort of abolitio memoriae (or desire for it) actually accomplish?

One need not trawl SC resolutions to find current fascist regions, as there are searchable tags that will show them all. If the intent of the SC is to demonstrate approval/disapproval for an ideology, then liberations can do so much more strongly than C&Cs because they actually impact game mechanics and so the liberation feature should be utilized in such cases.

As for the idea that this will bring notoriety or fame to fascist regions, there needs to be a recognition that not all such fame is good fame. Adolf Hitler undoubtedly is one of the most notorious and famous people in history, but his fame is not a positive one and his supporters genuinely do remain small; additionally, such supporters who are users of this site are not likely to not be able to find a fascist region because the SC didn't mention them.

Additionally, such avoidance of names does little to actually benefit anti-fascism. Imagine if the German schools decided to continue to educate German children on anti-fascism, but only to do so in broad ideological terms so as to avoid giving continued fame to the dead Nazis; if such a child then finds a book of some sort that casts Joseph Goebbels in a positive light I would imagine they would be less easily able to question such a book than if their teachers had simply told them that Goebbels was a high-ranking Nazi official. In this sense, mentioning fascist regions serves as a sort of warning sign (for example, one cannot tell that 'Altmora' is fascist simply from the name); of course, some people will ignore the warning sign and some regions will make light of the fact that a sign is pointed at them, but that is not a reason to avoid making the sign any more than it is meaningless to call out an abusive person who is proud of their abusiveness.

In my opinion, trying to avoid mentioning fascist regions is more similar to the Arab practice of referring to Israel as "the Zionist entity" than it is to any meaningful anti-fascism; avoiding the name does little to nothing of substance. Genuine anti-fascism engages against fascism head-on without needing to engage in rhetorical dances to avoid directly acknowledging the enemy.

Full support of the resolution, by the way.

Sure, but this is NS, not RL, and the context is different. The regions mentioned don't commit any atrocities. There have been literally hundreds, if not thousands, of fascist regions in NS. We don't preserve lists of them in the SC. Why should these ones get preserved?
As you say, real people need educated about Nazi Germany so that we can all try to ensure "never again". But there's no need to record the existence of some minor NS nazi voices.

"Genuine anti-fascism engages against fascism head-on"

I very much agree with you. Going off topic, the problem in NS is that the standard approach to anti-fascism is to raid a fascist region. For that to happen, first the founder must CTE (ie has lost interest in maintaining the region) or be deleted by a mod. So while the raid destroys the region, the raiders were in no meaningful way responsible for its downfall.
There are alternative in-game methods of engaging against fascism. For example, Barbaria is mentioned in this liberation. Barbaria has 170 embassies. If genuine diplomacy were used (rather than the typical NS aggression displayed by most NSGP commentators), then many of those embassy regions could be persuaded to close embassies. Does it destroy Barbaria? No, but it's a severe blow to their esteem. It's a tactic that worked on Genua, and Aryan Resistance.
Another example is the "Civil Defence Siren", which apparently sends automated TGs to all nations joining certain fascist regions.
Outside of Gameplay, constructively contributing to Moderation discussion threads such as the "Holocaust Denial" thread is another method. Overt nazism was banned on-site back in April. With suitable arguments and evidence, it may be possible to influence moderation standards further.

I think we agree on much more than we disagree on, with the main disagreements being about tactics rather than the underlying philosophy.

You are absolutely correct about the RL need to educate people on Nazi atrocities, and I think we agree completely on that. Its also indisputable that anything fascists do on NS (whether IC or OOC) will never hold a candle to the scale and impact of those committed by RL fascist regimes.

However, with regard to the site specifically, I feel that it is possible (and even beneficial) to mention specific fascist regions in a way that avoids giving them "disproportionate attention", we are no longer in the early days of the SC where every other proposal was about Nazi Europe. Not all publicity actually is good publicity, and mentioning a region (or group of regions) in a liberation that explicitly repudiates the actions of both the target and the mentioned region(s) as this one does, seems to me a good way to do that. I would be unlikely to support a condemnation of any of the regions Xoriet mentions because they can and will parade them around as a badge of(dis?)honor, but its much more difficult to frame this resolution as doing that; the SC here would broadly condemn fascism generally and some of its worst actors specifically, without unduly giving them too much attention and utilizing a very powerful game mechanic against one of their allies.

Regarding anti-fascist action I agree that a purely military approach is not always adequate or direct enough. However, I believe that the use of the liberation function is a very direct mode of operation; and while it still requires the region's founder to CTE, most fascist region founders have a limited shelf life and the case of Captain Lard here demonstrates that. In addition to military action and diplomatic isolation of fascist regions, espionage is also an effective and direct tactic which has been and continues to be utilized effectively (from my memory the MT Army has been one of the most effective historical organizations at using this).

I think our primary point of disagreement is that I believe that one can and should take a 'name them to shame them' approach to fascist regions while you do not. We are each opposed to giving those regions condemnations (as they serve no real function); however, I feel that the liberation proposed here avoids unnecessary notoriety while still condemning fascist regions outright.

LMAO! Just checked out the current state of Lardyland

All Wild Things wrote:LMAO! Just checked out the current state of Lardyland

Now that is funny!

All Wild Things wrote:LMAO! Just checked out the current state of Lardyland

They had a disgusting banner and flag yesterday. It was so gross, I filed a GHR, and that was the final nail it appears.

Now, if Bruhgundy is being truthful, it is now in the hands of a sleeper.

The region fell due to two suicide by mods. A fate one would expect from a literal spam region.

Great Algerstonia wrote:Call it what it is. Was it porn or disgusting pictures or what? Also, moderation.

Probably sexually explicit content or images based on what I seen before. They aren't content to just linking to it either.

As for this proposal, I'm indifferent. I would not care if someone were to take the region as a trophy, just like what happened to Spam.

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:

All Wild Things wrote:LMAO! Just checked out the current state of Lardyland

Now that is funny!

It's hilarious

The Reformed American Republic wrote:

All Wild Things wrote:LMAO! Just checked out the current state of Lardyland

Bruhgundy

esoteric neoliberalism with nuclear warfare characteristics

So now that Lardyland's coup'd, there is no need for the liberation, correct?

The Reformed American Republic wrote:Now, if Bruhgundy is being truthful, it is now in the hands of a sleeper.

Yeah, they're lying. Liberation go brrrrrr

Team Lennox wrote:So now that Lardyland's coup'd, there is no need for the liberation, correct?

Do we even know who the Bruhgundy person is?

Honeydewistania wrote:

Team Lennox wrote:So now that Lardyland's coup'd, there is no need for the liberation, correct?

Do we even know who the Bruhgundy person is?

Not a "pacific sleeper agent", that's for sure.

Honeydewistania wrote:

Team Lennox wrote:So now that Lardyland's coup'd, there is no need for the liberation, correct?

Do we even know who the Bruhgundy person is?

Yes a NPO sleeper: https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=45707383

Greater Cesnica wrote:

Honeydewistania wrote:Do we even know who the Bruhgundy person is?

Not a "pacific sleeper agent", that's for sure.

It is: https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=45707383

Team Lennox wrote:So now that Lardyland's coup'd, there is no need for the liberation, correct?

Oh so, so naive.

It’s liberation a-go-go.

Team Lennox wrote:

Honeydewistania wrote:Do we even know who the Bruhgundy person is?

Yes a NPO sleeper: https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=45707383

Greater Cesnica wrote:Not a "pacific sleeper agent", that's for sure.

It is: https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=45707383

If the nation was an NPO sleeper, it would know better than to spam & post about it on the Lardyland RMB.

Team Lennox wrote:

Honeydewistania wrote:Do we even know who the Bruhgundy person is?

Yes a NPO sleeper: https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=45707383

Greater Cesnica wrote:Not a "pacific sleeper agent", that's for sure.

It is: https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=45707383

I really doubt a member of the NPO would propose this liberation and draw attention to the region when they had a sleeper all along. Unless someone confirms this nations identity, it’s liberation time