[DRAFT] Commend The Rejected Realms

[Unibot III]

A common complaint that I would cite here with most GCR governments today is they go at great lengths to assure everyone they’re doing something, but without ever doing a whole lot — it’s all “hush-hush.” This isn’t just a TRR problem, it’s a NS problem.

It's hush-hush because I don't want leaks ruining it before it even begins. It's not unreasonable.

TRT published one good edition, covering stuff that was like eight months old.

News in GP has been sparse this year. This is not the fault of TRT or its journalists.

The Assembly is spending its time debating tedious amendments to RMB suppression rules & TRT membership. It’s playing at the margins.

Those are the issues we currently face. Thus we are addressing them. It's that simple.

The RMB is active but TWP’s RMB is even more active, and they’ve barely had a government for centuries now.

We can't all have an RMB that moves a mile a minute like TEP's. At least it's easy to keep track of the conversation on ours.

Nobody outside of Discord cares about the goddamn Culture Calendar except the Culture Officer. It’s been a failure for years. Not a soul participates in those RMB activities. The Assembly’s voters have their heads stuck in the sand, evaluating the success of its cultural programs based off their experience in Discord amongst their core group — they’ve blissfully ignored the years-long failure to engage TRRers on the actual NS platform in cultural-political-social activities.

Balancing Discord and the RMB is an issue we do face. We're trying.

The RRA has been zealously preaching their continued activity since the Old Testament — they’re not even a semi-dominant force in NSGP; it’s a piece of intellectual property that’s been underused and underserved by its private owners, FRA-TGW-ADN ex-pats, who have treated it as a retirement home since before 2009.

I'm afraid they simply do not have a "big bad" to bring some good headlines to R/D.

The problem with the little circle of people running TRR today is they’re so quick to congratulate themselves and defend their record and success, and quote meaningless statistics (how many detags, RMB posts made etc.) It verges on a Balder-esque approach to non-governing (Balder, of course, claiming to be most culturally active GCR for years, even citing legitimate statistics to back it up.) TRR has kind of become a lot like Balder.

Oh no, that's going too far. TRR is better and nothing like Balder always. Every region sees a dry season every now and then. Best we can do is buckle down and try our best. It's not the first one some of us have worked through.

A return to activity would be a return to governing for the region as a whole. Region-wide cultural activities and groups. Pursue legislative changes only when it’s substantive and necessary. Build a foreign policy that situates TRR and its collective interest in today’s context, removed from the friendships and entanglements of each individual resident’s Discord buddies. You need an ethos, a direction, and a drive to engage people beyond the same ten people in your Discord room.

Is it really so different than it used to be? Now, it's our Discord buddies. Then, it was our (and your) IRC buddies.

You’re largely ignoring the points raised:

1. We never use to base our cultural activity on IRC. Cultural activities were run by the region for the region as a whole, typically in-game, maybe on the forum, never over IRC — your reach is too small on a private platform.

While the small circle running TRR is championing the success of Werewolf or whatever in their Discord room, the actual region’s activity has been deteriorating for several years.

2. RMB activity has little to do with regional management. We’ve seen badly run GCRs with quite active RMBs. RMB activity is more dependent on the community context.

3. The Regional Assembly is focused on comparatively very small issues, like TRRMC membership criteria and nomination threads, because it *perceives* these issues as being the only issues facing TRR, not because they *are* the only issues facing TRR. TRR is facing a major problem with activity and lack of direction, and the Regional Assembly hasn’t really wanted to address or even acknowledge the question.

I stand by the Balder comparison, it stings because it is true: TRR is stagnant and the people primarily administrating it are too defensive about its status (citing walls of statistics and spam games and trivia nights…) to acknowledge that the region hasn’t just hit a dry season, it’s been quiet for a year or two now and it’s getting worse.

Primarily, the problem seems to me that TRR fed off of NSGP activity, being an NSGP region. I also think players are forgetting that their discord room is not their region, it’s an extension of their region. TRR will have to figure out whether it can play a role in making NSGP exciting again, or whether it needs to restructure the region so it’s fully independent of NSGP. This “dry season” won’t end at all if the region doesn’t face the problem facing itself and NS at large.

I do not see in TRR the kind of activity that you would normally base a WA Commendation on. And the idea of commending TRR for stuff from 2013 or 2003 seems a bit silly to me when essentially all GCRs have moments in their history where they’ve done something extraordinary. The SC has to have a higher standard for GCRs — which are again, permanent fixtures in NS — because otherwise we could justify commendations for any of them for achievements over their long tenures.

[Zukchiva]

I support a TRR commend. However YSG, as others have said this draft needs a lot more research and effort put into it. But it'll get there! And many thanks for drafting on the forums first, that's always a great thing.

[Thousand Branches]

Considering the author has not spoken in this thread since the 12th and has clearly lost interest, we might stop posting in their drafting thread.

[Twertis]

I agree with everything Unibot said about the legislature. But TRR's certainly not inactive. The activity TRR has reflects that of what Unibot might call the "discord era". TRR's cabinet is well-aware that (at least nowadays) inserting low-maintenance, consistently-running activities into TRR's culture is a better investment than running large-scale, one-off events (like Rejectmas, or PacificCon). Such comes with Discord. In fact, the culture office has had enormous success with recurring events like popmaster and werewolf— the culture calender and RMB games are less successful attempts at that (though not unsuccessful). It really isn't fair to go after culture, when it seems to be active and competent across officers and delegates. You certainly can't say that for outreach or WA.

Also, I resent his comparison to Balder. From what I've heard, not even Balder's like Balder. I'd prefer we not have ad hominem boogeymanning.

And lastly, it's simply not fair to compare TRR's RMB to a feeder.

Considering the author has not spoken in this thread since the 12th and has clearly lost interest, we might stop posting in their drafting thread.

I don't think that's relevant. This is a discussion of TRR's commendability, which is still pertinent to this thread. I'm sure any future attempts will benefit from this discussion.

[The Church of Satan]

I'm guessing the author is very busy with research for the commendation. YSG simply hadn't anticipated how big a job this commendation would be.

[Twertis]

I'm guessing the author is very busy with research for the commendation. YSG simply hadn't anticipated how big a job this commendation would be.

I was under the impression they were some random noob?

If not, well, there's lots more to be said here.

[Unibot III]

I agree with everything Unibot said about the legislature. But TRR's certainly not inactive. The activity TRR has reflects that of what Unibot might call the "discord era". TRR's cabinet is well-aware that (at least nowadays) inserting low-maintenance, consistently-running activities into TRR's culture is a better investment than running large-scale, one-off events (like Rejectmas, or PacificCon). Such comes with Discord. In fact, the culture office has had enormous success with recurring events like popmaster and werewolf— the culture calender and RMB games are less successful attempts at that (though not unsuccessful). It really isn't fair to go after culture, when it seems to be active and competent across officers and delegates. You certainly can't say that for outreach or WA.

Also, I resent his comparison to Balder. From what I've heard, not even Balder's like Balder. I'd prefer we not have ad hominem boogeymanning.

And lastly, it's simply not fair to compare TRR's RMB to a feeder.

Considering the author has not spoken in this thread since the 12th and has clearly lost interest, we might stop posting in their drafting thread.

I don't think that's relevant. This is a discussion of TRR's commendability, which is still pertinent to this thread. I'm sure any future attempts will benefit from this discussion.

I didn’t call it the Discord Era, I called it the Great Discord! If I’m going to bitch and moan about things, I am determined to do it in style.

We’re going to have to disagree on culture. I think culture is the most critical area for a region’s activity level and it’s been the weakest area for TRR for several years. Giving up on engaging your region in-game culturally and focusing on your Discord activity is an abject failure that’s being brushed away by current players as a “sign of the times.”

In-game cultural activities require more time investment, more promotion, and more creativity from organizers — to have them land, you have to be dedicating most of your time to those activities. The “Cultural Calendar” misunderstands how to engage low-awareness, low-information NSers on their platform.

Prioritizing Discord culturally is just a way that modern NS governments — TRR being the one of the biggest culprits today with the success of their Discord room events, games, trivia etc. — shift the goal posts so they can do less, and be less creative about it, and trot out metrics & statistics to prove how much superficial activity their efforts have generated. I am afraid to say it is Balder-esque, because that’s exactly what Rachel used to do using forum spam games (she too would have insisted on commending Balder for being a cultural superpower.)

[The North Polish Union]

I've read the last couple pages of this thread but haven't posted yet, but I'll chime in.

Perhaps I've also become an out-of-touch old-fashioned grouch (the grouch part isn't new), but in my opinion one of the most important factors in a region is the on-site community and activity there. I understand the need for off-site tools such as forums and IRC/Discord for administration and organizing, but at the end of the day these need to primarily serve the on-site region (whether via designing fair laws and the application of them, coordinating foreign affairs/military operations, or planning regional activities/events). I also understand that in a GCR particularly there will always be a distinction between the off-site administration and the large number of nations the game throws into the region.

However, regions need to take care that they don't lose the forest for the trees and over-focus on off-site venues and activity, which I think is what Unibot is getting at. In my opinion, the most important parts of playing NationStates take place (or at the least really ought to) on NationStates itself, not using Discord or other off-site venues. Once again recognizing that there's a substantial difference between UCRs and GCRs, the most enjoyable regions I've participated in have been those where I didn't need to use forums or (in my most active time) IRC to meaningfully participate in the community. In those cases, forums and IRC existed but they were ancillary to the actual community-building, which took place on-site (both on the RMB and in regional RPs on the NS forums).

Which brings me to what I think Unibot is trying to get at (and I think him and some of the TRR members have been talking past each other a bit here), which is that TRR's active Discord etc. don't matter if the actual engagement of the off-site group with the on-site region is minimal. As a quick check to gage this, I checked each RO's nation and averaged the time it had been since hey posted on TRR's RMB (this excludes the 2 ROs, 1/6 of the total ROs, who don't have an RMB post in their recent activity feed), the average was 96.1 hours! While some ROs are certainly more active than others, given the fast pace of TRR's RMB, I had to go back 41 pages in the RMB history go get to the 96 hour (4 day) mark. As a contrast, Lazarus' delegate, Treadwellia, has posted 19 times to Lazarus' RMB over that time span. Although RMB activity is far from the only measure of a region's on-site activity, it is a helpful and easily-quantifiable one. It appears that TRR's on-site and off-site communities are likely driven by different groups that may or may not meaningfully interact with each other (I don't know enough about TRR to say this for certain).

As the resolution goes, I don't see off-site activity as being commendable unless it translates to or otherwise impacts the on-site region. The SC exists to commend regions and nations on the actual NationStates site, not off-site groups or activities. If TRR's forum leadership has little to do with the actual region beyond holding the delegacy and RO spots, then they aren't commendable; and it seems to me like they have to make the case that that isn't true.a

[Outer Sparta]

I'm guessing the author is very busy with research for the commendation. YSG simply hadn't anticipated how big a job this commendation would be.

For me, it's a case of whether the author can make a great case for a commendation of TRR. Kudos to them if they are still compiling all the research and making a big overhaul of their current draft, because there is a lot of info to be discovered and even reading the thread of convos between you and Unibot is quite informative.

[Twertis]

I'll try to be fair and not latch on to a single bad point too much, but you'd equate TRR to Balder because it has forum spam games? Lots of regions have that— and in fact it's reminiscent of the older TRR you seem to be so nostalgic for.

[Aivintis]

None of this is exceptionally on topic.

[Sedgistan]

It's turned into an interesting discussion on whether TRR is Commendable or not. If it was getting in the way of the author redrafting their proposal, it'd probably warrant mod intervention, but that does not appear to be the case.

[The Church of Satan]

-snip-

The region's government operates offsite. It's the same way for most major regions. Even ones that have been commended and condemned. The laws most GP regions pass are done so offsite. Treaties, declarations of war, even military activity (to a certain point) are done offsite. Any major region that is commended or condemned is done so with its offsite activity taken into consideration. The same is true of commending or condemning players. SC Resolution #356 (Commend HumanSanity) took into consideration his offsite activity as a Senator, Mninister of Labor, and Minister of Culture. For all the big regions, as far as recognizing their contributions and achievements, their offsite activities are inseparable from their onsite activities. This a long established thing in NationStates.

[The North Polish Union]

-snip-

The region's government operates offsite. It's the same way for most major regions. Even ones that have been commended and condemned. The laws most GP regions pass are done so offsite. Treaties, declarations of war, even military activity (to a certain point) are done offsite. Any major region that is commended or condemned is done so with its offsite activity taken into consideration. The same is true of commending or condemning players. SC Resolution #356 (Commend HumanSanity) took into consideration his offsite activity as a Senator, Mninister of Labor, and Minister of Culture. For all the big regions, as far as recognizing their contributions and achievements, their offsite activities are inseparable from their onsite activities. This a long established thing in NationStates.

I think you misunderstand my point a little bit. I have nothing against off-site forums or Discord. Instead i think the off-site organizations need to be serving the needs of the on-site community rather than being a community in and of themselves. I've seen too many regions (and this was pre-Discord) where the in-game region exists but the "real" regional community is off-site. In GCRs this problem is exacerbated because of the region's size and the way they get new nations but it need not become a given

[Unibot III]

However, regions need to take care that they don't lose the forest for the trees and over-focus on off-site venues and activity, which I think is what Unibot is getting at. ... Which brings me to what I think Unibot is trying to get at (and I think him and some of the TRR members have been talking past each other a bit here), which is that TRR's active Discord etc. don't matter if the actual engagement of the off-site group with the on-site region is minimal.

You've read me correctly, and I agree with everything you've said in this thread. The RO example is a good one.

I think this has been a problem for most GCRs lately, but TRR is probably the most egregious example of it because of the very serious gap between its Discord activity and the attention that the region receives in-game from its organizers. It's why I have a hard time recognizing TRR as an active region when its in-game is so stagnant.

I'll try to be fair and not latch on to a single bad point too much, but you'd equate TRR to Balder because it has forum spam games? Lots of regions have that— and in fact it's reminiscent of the older TRR you seem to be so nostalgic for.

Just to clarify, I don't have a problem with spam (if anything, I think RMBs are overmoderated), the comparison I was raising was that for many years, Balder was extremely defensive about accusations of being inactive/stagnant and they would defend their activity by pointing to forum spam (like forum games, puzzles etc.). In fact Rachel would frequently claim Balder was the most active GCR in NationStates. It was a ridiculous claim for her to make, when most of the region was comatose at an adminstrative level. I see similarities in how TRR responds to accusations of inactivity today, in that it turns to the success of Discord games and trivia, like Werewolf, to gloss over a sleepy Assembly, a revolving door of officers and delegates (each less motivated than the last), and a dearth of in-game activities and intiatives.

I don't think rejects have really come to terms with the fact that the region has an activity problem and a raison d'etre problem. It seems to be permanently stuck in a stage of denial.

I am not nostalgic for a past TRR, I don't think TRR as it was in the 2010s can be replicated in today's game environment - and that's part of the problem! You have to consider stuff like, what is TRT supposed to write about if NSGP is consistently boring? Is defending serving our region on a political level if all the success is constantly credited to TGW and a blob of participants in Libcord? Would TRR be better served in a defender organization, like ADN or FRA, where it has an important seat at the table - something that would bring it influence and recognition? Today's TRR to me feels like an old model that I and many others helped make (Fratt, Guy, Sedge) but grafted onto a game as it is now, where it's essentially irrelevant.

So how do you make the region relevant again? I suspect the idea lies in pure, unadultered distruptionism.

Not to make it all about myself, but one of the main reasons why I left TRR was I was concerned that my presence was - in an indirect way - driving the government to ignore the region, because they don't have to power to fully exclude blacklisted players from in-game events and activities. I thought if I helped removed part of the problem (i.e., me) that the government might be more interested in governing the actual region. This was probably conceited of me, but it was a real thought that I had had. I did not want to be an obstacle to the region's growth.

[YSG Hermitcraft]

I guess I can safely say that this is basically discarded. I'm not checking this place anymore, so it's better off deleted

[Outer Sparta]

I guess I can safely say that this is basically discarded. I'm not checking this place anymore, so it's better off deleted

What happened during the time in between for research and stuff?

[YSG Hermitcraft]

I guess I can safely say that this is basically discarded. I'm not checking this place anymore, so it's better off deleted

What happened during the time in between for research and stuff?

I just stopped looking. I basically gave up.

[Great Algerstonia]

What happened during the time in between for research and stuff?

I just stopped looking. I basically gave up.

Good job trying, YSG. This was a good effort.

[Outer Sparta]

What happened during the time in between for research and stuff?

I just stopped looking. I basically gave up.

Yeah, that's fair. Writing an SC c/c and doing all that in-depth research is a huge task in itself. Good luck on any future SC endeavors if you wish to attempt another one in the future.

[YSG Hermitcraft]

I just stopped looking. I basically gave up.

Yeah, that's fair. Writing an SC c/c and doing all that in-depth research is a huge task in itself. Good luck on any future SC endeavors if you wish to attempt another one in the future.

Thanks

[YSG Hermitcraft]

I just stopped looking. I basically gave up.

Good job trying, YSG. This was a good effort.

Thank you :')

[-SARS-]

The region's government operates offsite. It's the same way for most major regions. Even ones that have been commended and condemned. The laws most GP regions pass are done so offsite. Treaties, declarations of war, even military activity (to a certain point) are done offsite. Any major region that is commended or condemned is done so with its offsite activity taken into consideration. The same is true of commending or condemning players. SC Resolution #356 (Commend HumanSanity) took into consideration his offsite activity as a Senator, Mninister of Labor, and Minister of Culture. For all the big regions, as far as recognizing their contributions and achievements, their offsite activities are inseparable from their onsite activities. This a long established thing in NationStates.

I think you misunderstand my point a little bit. I have nothing against off-site forums or Discord. Instead i think the off-site organizations need to be serving the needs of the on-site community rather than being a community in and of themselves. I've seen too many regions (and this was pre-Discord) where the in-game region exists but the "real" regional community is off-site. In GCRs this problem is exacerbated because of the region's size and the way they get new nations but it need not become a given

TRR definitely has a problem in this area. There is a huge disconnect between the off-site community and the on-site community, to the point where leaders from the off-site community have been loudly demanding new game mechanics to help them silence some of the most active members of the on-site community.

I stay in the region because I like Thepeopl and the polls, and occasionally an interesting convo will break out, but I am completely opposed to a commendation. Our regional government is deeply dysfunctional, and some of the ROs seem to think their job is to choke all life out of the region.

[Unibot III]

Yeah, that's fair. Writing an SC c/c and doing all that in-depth research is a huge task in itself. Good luck on any future SC endeavors if you wish to attempt another one in the future.

Thanks

An idea for you, YSG, might be to consider directing your attention towards a Declaration. I think you'd find a Declaration would be easier to write - less research to do. It's more about spelling out a problem and providing answers to resolve it.

For instance, a declaration on the situation in the Rejected Realms. Such a declaration would have to be carefully written not to run afoul of the rules against discussing site moderation. Guy proposed (and dropped) an RR Assembly resolution on NS Moderation which might offer some inspiration to you.

In such a Declaration, you could discuss:

• The hate and disinformation being spread on TRR's RMB and the community's attempts to combat it. (Moderation can't claim you're interacting with the site rules by discussing this in a resolution, because they're saying a lot of this stuff isn't actionable. If it isn't actionable, it's not within the scope of moderation then.)
• Express sympathy for TRR.
• Reference SC#358, our first SC Declaration, and its author's "tireless advocacy against hate" in NS. I think it's a bit sad that the SC never had an opportunity to commend Cormac for all of the contributions he brought to NS, and it would be a good gesture to give him a nod in such a resolution without connecting the dots directly that he was DOS'd over this debate.

In terms of operative clauses...

• The SC could make a call for volunteers from across NS to help TRR moderate its RMB and suppress content.
• The SC could raise awareness of this issue, and ask regions to try to address hate and disinformation internally before ejecting and banning offending nations and downloading the problem to TRR.
• The SC could also ask regions that maintain embassies with TRR to encourage the responsible use of TRR's RMB from abroad.

Just some ideas for you!

[Sedgistan]

Telling a new player to run headlong into Rule 3b is not good advice.