[DEFEATED] Repeal SC#246 "Liberate Nazi Europa"

[Sedgistan]

I am refraining from submitting this immediately solely so that the mods can carry out a legality check on the RECALLING clause - as is required of proposals citing rule violations.

Looks fine.

[Haganham]

Since the region was mod-deleted and prevented from ever being refounded, there's no reason to repeal and give it any more attention. One can't claim the community uses the liberation as a badge of honor, since there's no community nor region to speak of anymore. All this will do is give fascists across NationStates - especially those previously residing in this region that may have joined other fascist ones since then - a platform to advertise their evil ideology, and nobody wants that.

Passing this would erase the resolution from existence. It will just mean you'll have the liberation and the repeal both on the books. Twice the amount of attention.

[Great Algerstonia]

Since the region was mod-deleted and prevented from ever being refounded, there's no reason to repeal and give it any more attention. One can't claim the community uses the liberation as a badge of honor, since there's no community nor region to speak of anymore. All this will do is give fascists across NationStates - especially those previously residing in this region that may have joined other fascist ones since then - a platform to advertise their evil ideology, and nobody wants that.

Passing this would erase the resolution from existence. It will just mean you'll have the liberation and the repeal both on the books. Twice the amount of attention.

But why on earth should there be a liberation for a non-existent region? It's useless! It makes no sense.

[Tinhampton]

Since the region was mod-deleted and prevented from ever being refounded, there's no reason to repeal and give it any more attention. One can't claim the community uses the liberation as a badge of honor, since there's no community nor region to speak of anymore. All this will do is give fascists across NationStates - especially those previously residing in this region that may have joined other fascist ones since then - a platform to advertise their evil ideology, and nobody wants that.

Passing this would erase the resolution from existence. It will just mean you'll have the liberation and the repeal both on the books. Twice the amount of attention.

How many people were complaining back in 2009 and the early 2010s that the old NAZI EUROPE got six doses of "attention" from the SC (two Condemnations, one Liberation, and three repeals) - all of this before Evil Wolf got the password?

I am refraining from submitting this immediately solely so that the mods can carry out a legality check on the RECALLING clause - as is required of proposals citing rule violations.

Looks fine.

Cheers - will submit at 5pm BST on Tuesday 7th September.

[Refuge Isle]

How many people were complaining back in 2009 and the early 2010s that the old NAZI EUROPE got six doses of "attention" from the SC (two Condemnations, one Liberation, and three repeals) - all of this before Evil Wolf got the password?

Ignoring the context of how condemnations were perceived in 2010, certainly fewer than are around to vote on the topic this time around.

[Giovanniland]

How many people were complaining back in 2009 and the early 2010s that the old NAZI EUROPE got six doses of "attention" from the SC (two Condemnations, one Liberation, and three repeals) - all of this before Evil Wolf got the password?

Really? Everyone should know that the 2009 SC was very different from the 2021 SC - not only did people care less about fascists and Nazis getting attention, but also very few of the resolutions passed then would likely pass today.

[Tinhampton]

How many people were complaining back in 2009 and the early 2010s that the old NAZI EUROPE got six doses of "attention" from the SC (two Condemnations, one Liberation, and three repeals) - all of this before Evil Wolf got the password?

Really? Everyone should know that the 2009 SC was very different from the 2021 SC - not only did people care less about fascists and Nazis getting attention, but also very few of the resolutions passed then would likely pass today.

1. SC#3 was so bad that even its author, TannerFrankLand/Daynor/Topid, tried to repeal it (without success). AMOM only struck it out late the following year after writing a replacement, SC#37.
   
   
2. AMOM's Condemnation was repealed in 2014 by SC#152, which passed by a 3-to-2 margin. I reproduce its text here:
   
   The Security Council,
   
   Acknowledging that the region known as Nazi Europe attempted to destroy many regions throughout its history,
   
   Understanding that Nazi Europe was condemned for those attempts by the Security Council,
   
   Accepting, however, that the nations responsible for most of the condemned actions, such as Laos refugees, oh my days, and "The New Aryan People" have since been conquered and ceased to operate as independent governments,
   
   Knowing that Nazi Europe had its dictatorial regime removed from power by a combined force of regions and organizations including The North Pacific, The United Imperial Armed Forces of The New Inquisition, The Land of Kings and Emperors and Albion and The Imperial Sovereign Realms Army of Osiris and Balder,
   
   Acknowledging the assistance of regions and organizations such as Equilism, Europeia, The East Pacific, Lone Wolves United, The Black Hawks, The Red Fleet, Unknown, The Kingdom of Great Britain, Sicarius, Mazeria, The MT Army, Kantrias and North Korea.
   
   Believing that the conquering of Nazi Europe by the coalition of forces listed above has eliminated it as a threat to the world,
   
   Recognizing that Nazi Europe is no longer deserving of any attention from this esteemed body, even in the form of a condemnation,
   
   Hereby repeals SC#37 "Condemn Nazi Europe."
   
   The SC#37 repeal thread indicates that some - although nowhere near as many as 2021 - were opposed on grounds of attention. Many more were opposed on the grounds that the resolution ought to be kept as a historical record (and, as I've said, this repeal will not magically vaporise Liberate NE from existence).
   
   
3. Liberate NAZI EUROPE - 2013 model - was "drafted with input from every GCR delegate" (according to Mad Jack, Osiris' then-Delegate). Anime Daisuki of XKI, then the world's most powerful Delegate, was opposed on the grounds that it was the third proposal in six months to have been targeted at NE! It got about two-thirds support anyway - although that figure was closer to 78% after a day of voting.
   
   The Liberation repeal was opposed by at least six GCR delegates. It got about 55.5% support anyway.

There have been many defeated resolutions about NAZI EUROPE. I do not include those above.

The objective of Lanav's Liberation - to render Nazi Europa "vulnerable" with a view to its destruction - has been accomplished. This is because NE no longer exists, and can no longer exist in any form. His mission has been accomplished; all the SC has to do is officially confirm it at vote.

[Giovanniland]

-snip-

Your comment just confirms the fact that Nazi Europa/Europe has already been given a lot more attention than it deserves, although that's of course partly due to the fact they were more active during the SC's early days, and that Condemnations were not seen the same way as they are today.

But now, the region was deleted by mods earlier this year. So let it be forgotten and confined to the history books, as many other fascist and Nazi regions have rightfully also been relegated to.

[Tinhampton]

...the region was deleted by mods earlier this year. So let it be forgotten and confined to the history books, as many other fascist and Nazi regions have rightfully also been relegated to.

The condemnations of NAZI EUROPE and The Greater German Reich, both Nazi regions, were repealed after their invasions in 2014 and 2015 respectively; there is no reason why Liberate NE should not be repealed in 2021, after its irreversible and spontaneous destruction. (I have taken great care not to actually mention NE in the proposal text, as you can see.) Besides, passing a repeal now makes it impossible for people to keep on hashing together repeal after repeal after repeal well into the 2020s - the much-vaunted and possibly much-feared Attention(tm)!

You asserted earlier that "very few of the resolutions passed then [concerning NAZI EUROPE] would likely pass today;" I would further note that even TNP believed in 2018 that Liberate Nazi Europa was "poorly written."

[Hulldom]

...the region was deleted by mods earlier this year. So let it be forgotten and confined to the history books, as many other fascist and Nazi regions have rightfully also been relegated to.

The condemnations of NAZI EUROPE and The Greater German Reich, both Nazi regions, were repealed after their invasions in 2014 and 2015 respectively; there is no reason why Liberate NE should not be repealed in 2021, after its irreversible and spontaneous destruction. (I have taken great care not to actually mention NE in the proposal text, as you can see.) Besides, passing a repeal now makes it impossible for people to keep on hashing together repeal after repeal after repeal well into the 2020s - the much-vaunted and possibly much-feared Attention(tm)!

You asserted earlier that "very few of the resolutions passed then [concerning NAZI EUROPE] would likely pass today;" I would further note that even TNP believed in 2018 that Liberate Nazi Europa was "poorly written."

How many people who served in the Ministry are still active, contributing members? Because I would take a guess that the number of staffers in common with that period and now hovers around a half-dozen, if that. Contributing members? Well, I know who's contributing and contributed and I would hazard a guess that number is very probably zero or at most one.

Also, silly little gotchas about what we said in 2018 would be well more effective if they didn't conveniently leave out that we still recommended For then because:

"...the statement made by this proposal is clear and provides the community with a way to strike back against those who hold such hateful and bigoted ideologies."

For what it's worth, I will be recommending Against on this to whoever occupies the in-game Seat at that point and will be issuing an Against recommendation.

It's really time to stop playing footsie with well less than desirable people and treating them with kid gloves. That's all this proposal does and all proposals to repeal liberations of fascist regions will ever do.

[Honeydewistania]

Besides, passing a repeal now makes it impossible for people to keep on hashing together repeal after repeal after repeal well into the 2020s - the much-vaunted and possibly much-feared Attention(tm)!

Actually, this is a good point. Even if Tinhampton does not propose a repeal, there will be draft after draft over the years of people trying to repeal this low hanging fruit like with SC#1 and SC#53, giving more attention that this quick repeal would. I will support getting this done and over with.

[Debussy]

Besides, passing a repeal now makes it impossible for people to keep on hashing together repeal after repeal after repeal well into the 2020s - the much-vaunted and possibly much-feared Attention(tm)!

Actually, this is a good point. Even if Tinhampton does not propose a repeal, there will be draft after draft over the years of people trying to repeal this low hanging fruit like with SC#1 and SC#53, giving more attention that this quick repeal would. I will support getting this done and over with.

I'm all for this.

This "given attention argument" is not well thought out, specially given the great point here provided by Melons. If their ideology sponsors enough attention to spur on anything of importance, it will be wiped off the map by the mods. Let's trim this tree and cut off the low hanging branches. It makes for a healthier tree.

[Refuge Isle]

Besides, passing a repeal now makes it impossible for people to keep on hashing together repeal after repeal after repeal well into the 2020s - the much-vaunted and possibly much-feared Attention(tm)!

Actually, this is a good point. Even if Tinhampton does not propose a repeal, there will be draft after draft over the years of people trying to repeal this low hanging fruit like with SC#1 and SC#53, giving more attention that this quick repeal would. I will support getting this done and over with.

This was the same grounds the last Repeal Liberate CCD was launched on. That didn't really work out.

[Debussy]

Actually, this is a good point. Even if Tinhampton does not propose a repeal, there will be draft after draft over the years of people trying to repeal this low hanging fruit like with SC#1 and SC#53, giving more attention that this quick repeal would. I will support getting this done and over with.

This was the same grounds the last Repeal Liberate CCD was launched on. That didn't really work out.

Try, try and try again. I assume you don't agree with that line of thought?

[Nepleslia]

This was the same grounds the last Repeal Liberate CCD was launched on. That didn't really work out.

Try, try and try again. I assume you don't agree with that line of thought?

There’s a term for when you try the same thing over and over again and expect different results.

[Morover]

Actually, this is a good point. Even if Tinhampton does not propose a repeal, there will be draft after draft over the years of people trying to repeal this low hanging fruit like with SC#1 and SC#53, giving more attention that this quick repeal would. I will support getting this done and over with.

This was the same grounds the last Repeal Liberate CCD was launched on. That didn't really work out.

Wasn’t the reason the last attempt at that failed that it coincided with the info about the attempted TNP coup coming out?

[Tinhampton]

This was the same grounds the last Repeal Liberate CCD was launched on. That didn't really work out.

Wasn’t the reason the last attempt at that failed that it coincided with the info about the attempted TNP coup coming out?

January '20. Kaboom's resubmission in November '20 was in queue for a while but was hit with a successful countercampaign by ShrewLlamaLand. Jocospor's submission in January '21 was hit with a countercampaign so successful (not least to mention several pre-emptive replacement drafts) that it never looked like making quorum

[Outer Sparta]

Actually, this is a good point. Even if Tinhampton does not propose a repeal, there will be draft after draft over the years of people trying to repeal this low hanging fruit like with SC#1 and SC#53, giving more attention that this quick repeal would. I will support getting this done and over with.

I'm all for this.

This "given attention argument" is not well thought out, specially given the great point here provided by Melons. If their ideology sponsors enough attention to spur on anything of importance, it will be wiped off the map by the mods. Let's trim this tree and cut off the low hanging branches. It makes for a healthier tree.

Yep, I'd be willing to support it and just get it out of the way. Nazi Europa, like the other Nazi regions, have been nuked by the mods and therefore no longer exists.

[Giovanniland]

Actually, this is a good point. Even if Tinhampton does not propose a repeal, there will be draft after draft over the years of people trying to repeal this low hanging fruit like with SC#1 and SC#53, giving more attention that this quick repeal would. I will support getting this done and over with.

This was the same grounds the last Repeal Liberate CCD was launched on. That didn't really work out.

Agreed. I remain unconvinced by the proposal and will vote against if this reaches the floor.

[The North Polish Union]

Since this resolution would hypothetically allow the natives of Nazi Europa to reimpose password-protections on their regions if they or the region still existed and would therefore make it less vulnerable to hypothetical raids (once again, if the region existed or could exist) I would oppose this if it came to vote.

[Toerana]

Since this resolution would hypothetically allow the natives of Nazi Europa to reimpose password-protections on their regions if they or the region still existed and would therefore make it less vulnerable to hypothetical raids (once again, if the region existed or could exist) I would oppose this if it came to vote.

Since the game rules change the refounding of Nazi Europa is a non factor - It's against game rules to found the region so whether they can password their soon to be deleted region or not really isn't relevant. Passwords don't stop mod deletions.

[The North Polish Union]

Since this resolution would hypothetically allow the natives of Nazi Europa to reimpose password-protections on their regions if they or the region still existed and would therefore make it less vulnerable to hypothetical raids (once again, if the region existed or could exist) I would oppose this if it came to vote.

Since the game rules change the refounding of Nazi Europa is a non factor - It's against game rules to found the region so whether they can password their soon to be deleted region or not really isn't relevant. Passwords don't stop mod deletions.

I know, but in the hypothetical situation where the region existed or was capable of existing, it would be allowed to be passworded with the passage of this resolution, therefore I oppose.

[Tinhampton]

And how do we know that it won't be refounded by the MT Army as one of their perpetual museums against hate when the opportunity arises, for example?

[Toerana]

And how do we know that it won't be refounded by the MT Army as one of their perpetual museums against hate when the opportunity arises, for example?

This.

There are an awful lot of hypothetical out there, we can't hope to legislate to cover them all.

For the foreseeable future, game rules will prevent Nazi Europa from being refounded, this resolution is not going to see a sudden return and growth of a region since that region can no longer exist.

[Comfed]

No reason to repeal it, and it's rather arrogant of you to assume that no one will have constructive feedback on the text.