[DEFEATED] Repeal SC#246 "Liberate Nazi Europa"

[Grea Kriopia]

None of these what-ifs or hypotheticals matter.

Tin, you are grasping at arguments just to see which ones stick, likely because you have no firm case for this repeal. If your desire is to trim fat, then look elsewhere. The region is gone and needs no more attention, as everyone else has moved on and is waiting for you to catch up.

There is already one resolution enough to cover this past region, which serves as a fine warning as Luca said, and there does not need to be a second added on top of that.

[Great Algerstonia]

None of these what-ifs or hypotheticals matter.

Tin, you are grasping at arguments just to see which ones stick, likely because you have no firm case for this repeal. If your desire is to trim fat, then look elsewhere. The region is gone and needs no more attention, as everyone else has moved on and is waiting for you to catch up.

There is already one resolution enough to cover this past region, which serves as a fine warning as Luca said, and there does not need to be a second added on top of that.

There will be less attention if this is repealed immediately. Rather than there being more and more attempted liberation repeals in the future.

[Andusre]

The only way I could feasibly consider supporting this or advising my region's delegate to support this would be if it was withdrawn and resubmitted on a puppet nation to prove this is not a low-hanging fruit badge hunt.

Even then, I find the arguments that we should let a sleeping dog lie far more compelling than "well someone has to badge hunt this repeal so it might as well be Tinhampton".

We do not abandon our anti-fascist principles when game moderators grow a backbone; in my opinion passing this unnecessary repeal would send the wrong message.

[Comfed]

None of these what-ifs or hypotheticals matter.

Tin, you are grasping at arguments just to see which ones stick, likely because you have no firm case for this repeal. If your desire is to trim fat, then look elsewhere. The region is gone and needs no more attention, as everyone else has moved on and is waiting for you to catch up.

There is already one resolution enough to cover this past region, which serves as a fine warning as Luca said, and there does not need to be a second added on top of that.

There will be less attention if this is repealed immediately. Rather than there being more and more attempted liberation repeals in the future.

There will be more attention if it goes to vote and people argue about it for days then if a someone recreates this thread every few years and it dies after a week.

[Tinhampton]

No reason to repeal it, and it's rather arrogant of you to assume that no one will have constructive feedback on the text.

My assumption proved correct - as can be judged by the preceding two pages of people generally failing to have anything to say about the actual text of my proposal.

Tin, you are grasping at arguments just to see which ones stick, likely because you have no firm case for this repeal. If your desire is to trim fat, then look elsewhere. The region is gone and needs no more attention, as everyone else has moved on and is waiting for you to catch up.

"This could give them attention" is not a firm case against this repeal, either.

There is already one resolution enough to cover this past region, which serves as a fine warning as Luca said, and there does not need to be a second added on top of that.

The main purpose of SC#246's "warning" - to ensure that "future fascist and Nazi regions" do not adopt fascism or Nazism by making an example out of Nazi Europa - was fulfilled the millisecond NE was mod-cleared. There are many initiatives in existence, such as the pan-feeder Civil Defence Siren, that do a good job of ensuring that new nations do not join such regions and existing nations do not create them (lest they, too, be targeted for automated counter-recruitment).

The only way I could feasibly consider supporting this or advising my region's delegate to support this would be if it was withdrawn and resubmitted on a puppet nation to prove this is not a low-hanging fruit badge hunt.

As far as I know, Brototh bases her vote on an offsite poll which many Thaecians - not just you - can vote on. In any event, I am not willing to resign my WA membership and delegacy simply to convince one person in one region that this proposal may be worth supporting.

Even then, I find the arguments that we should let a sleeping dog lie far more compelling than "well someone has to badge hunt this repeal so it might as well be Tinhampton".

All unrepealed resolutions, other than repeals, can be repealed - and resolutions which prove either superfluous or deeply flawed will receive more repeal attempts than most, in the long run.

We do not abandon our anti-fascist principles when game moderators grow a backbone; in my opinion repealing this unnecessary repeal would send the wrong message.

This resolution would not repeal a repeal (that is mechanically impossible), nor would it serve to "abandon our anti-fascist principles" (see the RECOGNISING clause of my proposal). Advocates for anti-fascism should target fascists who are active and belligerent today, rather than those who are defunct (much like real-world anti-fascists focus their efforts on neo-Nazis, Identitarians, and those who entered the Capitol building on January 6th, rather than the long-dissolved fascist regimes of Germany, Italy and Spain).

[Andusre]

The only way I could feasibly consider supporting this or advising my region's delegate to support this would be if it was withdrawn and resubmitted on a puppet nation to prove this is not a low-hanging fruit badge hunt.

As far as I know, Brototh bases her vote on an offsite poll which many Thaecians - not just you - can vote on. In any event, I am not willing to resign my WA membership and delegacy simply to convince one person in one region that this proposal may be worth supporting.

I didn't suggest that Brotoths vote is decided by me and me alone, nor would I expect you to resign WA from your main just for my support. I'm not that vain, Tin.

Even then, I find the arguments that we should let a sleeping dog lie far more compelling than "well someone has to badge hunt this repeal so it might as well be Tinhampton".

All unrepealed resolutions, other than repeals, can be repealed - and resolutions which prove either superfluous or deeply flawed will receive more repeal attempts than most, in the long run.

From what I gather the only real reason given for this repeal is that Nazi Europa doesn't exist anymore therefore an extant liberation must be struck out. The liberation you're seeking to repeal is neither superfluous nor deeply flawed, thus attempts to repeal it are unjustifiable.

We do not abandon our anti-fascist principles when game moderators grow a backbone; in my opinion repealing this unnecessary repeal would send the wrong message.

This resolution would not repeal a repeal (that is mechanically impossible), nor would it serve to "abandon our anti-fascist principles" (see the RECOGNISING clause of my proposal). Advocates for anti-fascism should target fascists who are active and belligerent today, rather than those who are defunct (much like real-world anti-fascists focus their efforts on neo-Nazis, Identitarians, and those who entered the Capitol building on January 6th, rather than the long-dissolved fascist regimes of Germany, Italy and Spain).

"Repealing this unnecessary repeal" was a typo on my part - I intended to say "passing this unnecessary repeal".

Yet I still find your argument that the Security Council ought to only focus on active fascists flimsy. No one burns all the history books relating to the fascist European regimes of the 20th century just because those regimes no longer exist, so even this line of argument is kinda wet. In addition, no one tried to Liberate Genua when it was the most prominent and belligerent overtly fascist region in the world.

Besides, there is no mechanical limit to how many liberations we can pass - there is absolutely no need to repeal old resolutions against defunct fascist regions to prioritise new resolutions against active fascist regions.

[Hulldom]

Honestly, I don't think any of us are really going after the text because the text is correct. There is nothing in that region because it's been deleted by the Moderators, it is a husk of what it is and doesn't exist because of its association with Nazism, not because of some other reason. What people are upset about is that generally, there seems to be no recognition of the message passing this Repeal would send to fascists on this game.

It's naive, and frankly a bit stupid, to put something like this in the queue, get it to vote, and pass it and expect there not to be consequences. I mean, Jesus, for someone who went on about R/D in the last week, did you not see what the two biggest recent operations in that sphere were? A liberation of the International Society of Julius Evola (named after a prominent Italian fascist) and then a region well associated with the fast in the NWE. I think this resolution has the same issues as Jutsa's Repeal of Cormac's Anti-Fascism thing: it fails to realize the message it sends. You don't just say "oh yeah this region's dead, no point to a liberation anymore", it sends a message that the underlying ideas behind the region, that there can and should be havens for people who hate others simply on the grounds of immutable characteristics about them, are ones which are, on the balance, acceptable to NS.

It is impossible, in my opinion, for one to separate the PR and the resolution here. We won't be back at square one when it comes to exterminating fascism, or even tacit acceptance of Nazis, but we will suffer a setback. Perhaps it's a bit RL here, but for the for the children of Vienna who were murdered by a man whose name was appended to a disorder I was diagnosed with at age four, we cannot give them any quarter nor even a foot in the door.

[Honeydewistania]

it sends a message that the underlying ideas behind the region, that there can and should be havens for people who hate others simply on the grounds of immutable characteristics about them, are ones which are, on the balance, acceptable to NS.

You keep saying this, yet I don’t see how this happens. It’s not a repeal saying that we shouldn’t do offensive liberations against Nazis. It isn’t a repeal saying that Nazis aren’t bad. It is repealing the resolution because it does not serve a functional purpose anymore. I legitimately don’t see how a passage of the resolution for this reason could make people think Nazism is actually okay in NationStates, could you explain that?

Also, disappointed to see this repeal submitted.

[Hulldom]

it sends a message that the underlying ideas behind the region, that there can and should be havens for people who hate others simply on the grounds of immutable characteristics about them, are ones which are, on the balance, acceptable to NS.

You keep saying this, yet I don’t see how this happens. It’s not a repeal saying that we shouldn’t do offensive liberations against Nazis. It isn’t a repeal saying that Nazis aren’t bad. It is repealing the resolution because it does not serve a functional purpose anymore. I legitimately don’t see how a passage of the resolution for this reason could make people think Nazism is actually okay in NationStates, could you explain that?

Also, disappointed to see this repeal submitted.

This may make me a bit of a realist, but if you keep doing something and then suddenly renege on it, what is the other side supposed to think? That a momentary stoppage is just that? Of course they wouldn't.

That same logic applies here.

[Tinhampton]

I have been very clear that this repeal will not lead to a rollback in the Security Council's repeated denunciation of "fascism, national socialism, and other ideologies that promote discrimination." I did not say that anti-fascists have (or should have) completely forsaken efforts to combat or remember prior fascist-driven atrocities, either, although that conversation is for another time and (at least) place.

This resolution would not repeal a repeal (that is mechanically impossible), nor would it serve to "abandon our anti-fascist principles" (see the RECOGNISING clause of my proposal). Advocates for anti-fascism should target fascists who are active and belligerent today, rather than those who are defunct (much like real-world anti-fascists focus their efforts on neo-Nazis, Identitarians, and those who entered the Capitol building on January 6th, rather than the long-dissolved fascist regimes of Germany, Italy and Spain).

"Repealing this unnecessary repeal" was a typo on my part - I intended to say "passing this unnecessary repeal".

Yet I still find your argument that the Security Council ought to only focus on active fascists flimsy. No one burns all the history books relating to the fascist European regimes of the 20th century just because those regimes no longer exist, so even this line of argument is kinda wet. In addition, no one tried to Liberate Genua when it was the most prominent and belligerent overtly fascist region in the world.

Besides, there is no mechanical limit to how many liberations we can pass - there is absolutely no need to repeal old resolutions against defunct fascist regions to prioritise new resolutions against active fascist regions.

I am not arguing that the repeal of old anti-fascist liberations and the passage of new anti-fascist liberations are mutually exclusive objectives, either. Nazi Europa posed a threat to other nations and regions when it was Liberated; it can now no longer pose such a threat.

[RiderSyl]

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. Nazi Europa has been mod-deleted, so SC#246 serves no practical purpose. And who the hell cares what fascists would think? If they see the repeal and believe that they've somehow attained a victory, then they can be whole-heartedly corrected with a few choice words.

There is absolutely no point to keeping this on the books.

[Refuge Isle]

And who the hell cares what fascists would think?

That's certainly an ironic question, given the context of your last exit from this game.

[RiderSyl]

And who the hell cares what fascists would think?

That's certainly an ironic question, given the context of your last exit from this game.

I know I relinquished what little control I had over the narrative when I left, but if the narrative became anything close to "Syl gives a shit about fascists", then someone really went wild with it.

[Wascoitan]

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. Nazi Europa has been mod-deleted, so SC#246 serves no practical purpose. And who the hell cares what fascists would think? If they see the repeal and believe that they've somehow attained a victory, then they can be whole-heartedly corrected with a few choice words.

There is absolutely no point to keeping this on the books.

there is also no real point to taking it off the books, so I don't really see the issue with just letting it be and not giving the fascist any more attention than they need.

[Debussy]

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. Nazi Europa has been mod-deleted, so SC#246 serves no practical purpose. And who the hell cares what fascists would think? If they see the repeal and believe that they've somehow attained a victory, then they can be whole-heartedly corrected with a few choice words.

There is absolutely no point to keeping this on the books.

there is also no real point to taking it off the books, so I don't really see the issue with just letting it be and not giving the fascist any more attention than they need.

Expect for the repeal after repeal after repeal that will continue to give them attention. Keeping this on the books will be like picking at a scab. Repeal this and let this game heal.

[RiderSyl]

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. Nazi Europa has been mod-deleted, so SC#246 serves no practical purpose. And who the hell cares what fascists would think? If they see the repeal and believe that they've somehow attained a victory, then they can be whole-heartedly corrected with a few choice words.

There is absolutely no point to keeping this on the books.

there is also no real point to taking it off the books, so I don't really see the issue with just letting it be and not giving the fascist any more attention than they need.

It's SC clutter, and we're responsible for getting rid of SC clutter. Countless SkyDip repeals passed on that basis alone. Also, I'm not buying "this gives fash attention!" as a legitimate counterargument, because a quick repeal of a bill that is pointless because the moderators deleted the region is something that gives fascists the exact kind of attention the Advancement of Anti-Fascist Action declaration did - the kind that shines a light on their weaknesses and forever-inevitable defeats.

And those saying that this'll just come back up again are right, because if Tinhampton's attempt here fails, repealing SC#246 goes on my own SC to-do list.

[Wascoitan]

It's SC clutter, and we're responsible for getting rid of SC clutter. Countless SkyDip repeals passed on that basis alone. Also, I'm not buying "this gives fash attention!" as a legitimate counterargument, because a quick repeal of a bill that is pointless because the moderators deleted the region is something that gives fascists the exact kind of attention the Advancement of Anti-Fascist Action declaration did - the kind that shines a light on their weaknesses and forever-inevitable defeats.

And those saying that this'll just come back up again are right, because if Tinhampton's attempt here fails, repealing SC#246 goes on my own SC to-do list.

Well frankly, I don't see why people care so much about SC clutter in general, oh no a handful of resolutions are no longer relevant, the humanity!, is there really that much of an issue with just leaving some old things be?

[RiderSyl]

It's SC clutter, and we're responsible for getting rid of SC clutter. Countless SkyDip repeals passed on that basis alone. Also, I'm not buying "this gives fash attention!" as a legitimate counterargument, because a quick repeal of a bill that is pointless because the moderators deleted the region is something that gives fascists the exact kind of attention the Advancement of Anti-Fascist Action declaration did - the kind that shines a light on their weaknesses and forever-inevitable defeats.

And those saying that this'll just come back up again are right, because if Tinhampton's attempt here fails, repealing SC#246 goes on my own SC to-do list.

Well frankly, I don't see why people care so much about SC clutter in general, oh no a handful of resolutions are no longer relevant, the humanity!, is there really that much of an issue with just leaving some old things be?

Decluttering the SC is not a big deal, and it has never been a big deal, as it's just something that we do every once in a while. Are you actually this passionately against SC custodial practices, or is your opposition of this just a contrarian thing?

If it's the former, you could just draft up a Declaration on it. "Declaration Against Cleaning", maybe?

[Wascoitan]

Well frankly, I don't see why people care so much about SC clutter in general, oh no a handful of resolutions are no longer relevant, the humanity!, is there really that much of an issue with just leaving some old things be?

Decluttering the SC is not a big deal, and it has never been a big deal, as it's just something that we do every once in a while. Are you actually this passionately against SC custodial practices, or is your opposition of this just a contrarian thing?

If it's the former, you could just draft up a Declaration on it. "Declaration Against Cleaning", maybe?

if I wasn't incredibly lazy I might just take you up on that suggestion , but nah I'm not intentionally trying to be contrarian or anything, just don't really see the point in any of it. regardless I see that's it's reached queue now anyways and I'm guessing it's going to pass. not much I'm actually going to be doing on my part to stop it, don't care enough to actually try to organize anything against it (like I did with the against quorum raiding thing).

[Refuge Isle]

regardless I see that's it's reached queue now anyways and I'm guessing it's going to pass.

That's unlikely.

I suspect most regions will be able to see this transparent attention grab, as indicated by the sentiment expressed in The North, becoming the seventh of such defeats this year for the author.

[WayNeacTia]

I’ll vote for it if someone else repeals it. Am I voting against solely due to the author? You bet.

[Haganham]

How? This region doesn’t even exist as a region anymore. It cannot be reestablished as a region, so no anti fascist effort is undermined by repealing this. That said, it doesn’t benefit anything either

The message that it is possible to repeal your liberation as a fascist-aligned region, regardless of how it's being done, is not one we should be sending.

Even if how it's being done is the target being completely and irrevocably destroyed? I read Tins proposal as a message that if your region is fascist it is doomed to destruction. That is an excellent message. The only sore point is that it was done by mods, not by us.

[Greater Cesnica]

---

The Europeian Ministry of World Assembly Affairs recommends a vote AGAINST the Security Council Resolution, Repeal: "Liberate Nazi Europa".
Its reasoning may be found here.

---

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

The liberation should remain in place as an example to other problematic regions. The argument that if it’s not repealed now then there will be numerous other attempts giving publicity to such regions doesn’t hold water as far as I am concerned - slippery slope arguments never do.

I have recommended an “Against” vote to TWP’s Delegate.

[Tinhampton]

This will almost certainly be at vote between the minor updates of today and Saturday 18th September.

AS OF 1650 BST ON TUESDAY: Approvals: 80 out of 54 needed (Tinhampton, TESDAI, The Flyin, Duby, Bearded Dragones, Ktchenia, Sirian, Minlask, Davelands, Boris Cult, Sedgistan, Baloo Kingdom, Republic of Blank, Omniabstracta, Uralom, Fachumonn, CoraSpia, Wisea, Johanneslanden, Yodle, Krovnik, Of The Glorious Soviet Onion, Zombiedolphins, Swideri, Calnodia, Enlais, Pastries, Eastern Carpathian Free States, Desertiania, North-West Commland, Krovx Luxembourg, Creator Land, Killzone35, Waskonte, Jean Rowe, Particle, Novum Orientis, The Neolithic German Empire, New Scottsville, Snowy Town Island, Smiley Bob, Edmundian Pluto, Socruell, Conservativealia, The Arkam Asylum, NewTexas, Madrocea, Noble Titans, Lesser Velutaria, Alistia, The Hard Part, Martinilinian, Willtechia, Agife, Draconae, United States of Kuwait, Greater Monstratte, Niveusium, Republic of Dixie, Nation84, United Lammunist Republic, Paleocacher, Floyssauu, East overworld, Miseria, Lunar Martian Alliance, Littjara, The Independent States of Allied Forces, Neim, Karteria, Sidramye, Zfhmpnaf, San Lumen, Josephtan, Foreignaid, Levont, The Socialist Republic of Alaska, Tysoania, Habianclazia, Olde Towne)