NationStates

After some time of drafting this privately, I now publish it for anyone to see and comment. This is a replacement for SC#302 that was repealed by SC#337.

I have tried to address the concerns cited in the original drafting thread of the resolution, the repeal drafting thread, and the repeal itself. For example, clauses I agree should not have been there in first place (NSToday for example) aren't mentioned in this draft, while others criticized by its lack of information (Karma for example) were expanded with more details. Furthermore, some actions not mentioned anywhere in the original proposal are also present here, so that hopefully the case for Halo's commendation turns stronger. Current character count (draft 4) sits at 4998, with spaces and BBCode included.

Older drafts:
Current Draft:

The Security Council,

Recognizing The Holy Principality of Saint Mark (Saint Mark) as a nation that has gone beyond the call of duty in the building of regional communities;

Celebrating Saint Mark's innovative actions that helped shape the modern government of the West Pacific (TWP), such as instituting weekly meetings for the regional Cabinet to discuss recent happenings and check the progress of plans as a way to ensure accountability; and as the first Speaker of the Hall of Nations, writing the Etiquette of the Hall that established the functions and procedures of the Hall of Nations as the body composed of all TWP citizens;

Lauding Saint Mark's prioritizing of new nation integration as a crucial aspect of region-building in TWP, via the creation of The West Pacific Master Dispatch as the modern hub for guides, foreign updates, and other resources to be published with a layout and level of organization that allows essential information to be easily found; and their still ongoing term as Chancellor of the University, in which they encourage new nations to enroll and help the classes happen smoothly through several courses, where student nations learn about and participate in the tasks undertaken within each ministry of the region, to become new regional leaders;

Praising Saint Mark's community-focused approach to foreign relations, in which they not only rejuvenated the Ministry of Foreign Affairs through the boost of diplomat numbers, improvement of monthly reports to inform the region of public foreign happenings, and authorship of guides for ambassadors on how to conduct themselves and interact with their assigned regions; but also enhanced relations between TWP and:

• Osiris and Balder, via the creation of activities to celebrate the treaties with said regions, respectively the West Osi High School Prom and Dragons of the Frozen Sea events;
• Lazarus, via the negotiation of the Treaty of Fùhuó after a large period of Lazarene instability, demonstrating the interest of both regions to enrich the active cultural, diplomatic and military bonds previously set forth by the defunct Chol Covenant treaty;
• The South Pacific, via the spearheading of a détente with the laudable intent of reducing years-long tensions between the two large Feeders, that has since resulted in a friendlier relation, despite notorious governmental differences;
• The Pacific (TP), via the work behind the scenes to promote peaceful diplomacy between them, Lazarus, and Osiris, paving the way for a treaty between TWP and TP to be re-established after Saint Mark's delegacy;

Applauding Saint Mark's additions to TWP culture, such as their authorship of articles and edition of publications for The West Pacifican from 2017 to 2019, laying the foundations for the eventual revamp and renaming of the regional newspaper into The Western Post during 2020; their creation of the yearly Festival of the Perfections event for the showcase of art, poetry, and writing from nations across the multiverse; and their role in establishing and promoting a platform for TWP nations' representatives to handle situations of international importance, report on national happenings and publish information about their lore;

Noticing that Saint Mark's region-building contributions extend to other regions like Edlhus, which they founded via Marcarius Halohin as a unique region focused on lineage relationships between nations and built as a casual meeting point due to the fact those nations are most often active in other primary regions; contributing to the region by authoring the governing documents known as The Edicts of Edlhus and The Code of Comport, and leading the region's entry into the 2020 UCR Con, an annual interregional event for smaller regions, in which Edlhus had one of the most active booths;

Respecting that Saint Mark's satellite state of Pyo Karma helped shape a thriving community with around 125 World Assembly nations in Karma, by developing the regional lore together with Rigels Light to make Karma stand out from other regions, and helping to maintain the activity of Karma's Path of Enlightenment, in which a resident nation must conclude a task and be approved by the Sages to participate in The Sangha, Karma’s legislative body;

Further respecting that Saint Mark's approach to foreign relations is also present in Karma, where as the first Guru of Diplomacy they started Karma's foreign relations, guided diplomats to represent it abroad, and negotiated the friendship treaty with Caer Sidi;

Concluding that Saint Mark's contributions have created a kind and caring environment in several regions, making them a better place for their residents;

Hereby commends The Holy Principality of Saint Mark.

Please post your comments regarding the proposal below!

Splendid job at first sight; will likely support in queue and at vote.

Opposed due to GA noncompliance by the nominee

Tinhampton wrote:will likely support in queue

Nothing out of the ordinary

I'm not a fan of the Edlhus section. I'd say remove it, or at least include something more substantial than just building embassies.

Aside from that, this is quite good. I don't think I'll oppose it

Your introductory clause isn’t really written from the SC viewpoint - particularly as nominee isn’t great language for a hypothetically passed resolution to have.

Looks good at first glance however

This is well written and I'm sure they deserve it, but personally I'm opposed for two reasons: (1) non-compliance with GA resolutions, and (2) TWP's attitude towards GA resolutions where they're automatically against new laws, and only for repeals - in a similar vein, I'm automatically against commending TWP nations until they change their policy.

But, as I said, well written.

Sanctaria wrote:(2) TWP's attitude towards GA resolutions where they're automatically against new laws, and only for repeals - in a similar vein, I'm automatically against commending TWP nations until they change their policy.

This seems very backward. It's one thing to be against non-compliance, another to penalize the West Pacific and every TWP resident because the region's Delegate is exercising their regional vote in the WA as they see fit. Non-compliance and national sovereignty are two different things, and upholding national sovereignty through voting is the correct way to do it. You've gone from penalizing non-compliance to trying to penalize every national sovereigntist, apparently.

That said, I am also opposed to this draft on non-compliance grounds. I strongly disagree with the rest of what Sanctaria said though.

Cormactopia Prime wrote:

Sanctaria wrote:(2) TWP's attitude towards GA resolutions where they're automatically against new laws, and only for repeals - in a similar vein, I'm automatically against commending TWP nations until they change their policy.

This seems very backward. It's one thing to be against non-compliance, another to penalize the West Pacific and every TWP resident because the region's Delegate is exercising their regional vote in the WA as they see fit. Non-compliance and national sovereignty are two different things, and upholding national sovereignty through voting is the correct way to do it. You've gone from penalizing non-compliance to trying to penalize every national sovereigntist, apparently.

That said, I am also opposed to this draft on non-compliance grounds. I strongly disagree with the rest of what Sanctaria said though.

You can disagree, but I'm not trying to penalise NatSovs. I have one vote that I exercise personally, I'm not trying to write a declaration about it. I don't vote for commends for raiders either, it's a personal preference.

TWP's GA policy has more of a vote impact than my own stance.

Sanctaria wrote:

Cormactopia Prime wrote:This seems very backward. It's one thing to be against non-compliance, another to penalize the West Pacific and every TWP resident because the region's Delegate is exercising their regional vote in the WA as they see fit. Non-compliance and national sovereignty are two different things, and upholding national sovereignty through voting is the correct way to do it. You've gone from penalizing non-compliance to trying to penalize every national sovereigntist, apparently.

That said, I am also opposed to this draft on non-compliance grounds. I strongly disagree with the rest of what Sanctaria said though.

You can disagree, but I'm not trying to penalise NatSovs. I have one vote that I exercise personally, I'm not trying to write a declaration about it. I don't vote for commends for raiders either, it's a personal preference.

TWP's GA policy has more of a vote impact than my own stance.

Wouldn't it be fairer to oppose on the latter point Cormac mentions if Saint Mark himself was doing what you don't agree with current Delegate? Though I suppose that would require some digging to find out.

Les Claypool wrote:Wouldn't it be fairer to oppose on the latter point Cormac mentions if Saint Mark himself was doing what you don't agree with current Delegate? Though I suppose that would require some digging to find out.

That's a fair question. The resolution mentions Saint Mark's tenure as Delegate, which is why I said I would vote as I would vote, but if there's a chance Saint Mark deviated from the policy then that is something worth investigating. I mean, I'd still vote no (personally) based on non-compliance, but if he didn't apply that policy as Delegate then it's not fair lumping him in with the others on that front.

Great Algerstonia wrote:Opposed due to GA noncompliance by the nominee

What does GA non-compliance even mean? As far as I know, there is no game mechanic to be able to ignore GA policy.

Sanctaria wrote:TWP's GA policy has more of a vote impact than my own stance.

The great thing about TWP is that anyone can roll up there sleeves and get to work in the region, work there way into the Delegacy and set their own policy. I personally did this. As did Bran, Halo, Dave, Dilber, Elegarth, Darkesia, etc. When I was Delegate I chose to set my policy on the GA. There is no set standard for how TWP Delegates should vote on GA proposals.

Big Bad Badger wrote:The great thing about TWP is that anyone can roll up there sleeves and get to work in the region, work there way into the Delegacy and set their own policy. I personally did this. As did Bran, Halo, Dave, Dilber, Elegarth, Darkesia, etc. When I was Delegate I chose to set my policy on the GA. There is no set standard for how TWP Delegates should vote on GA proposals.

I did not know this, so thank you for raising it. I am sorry for tarring TWP with one brush! It'll take some digging, but I'm happy to look back at Saint Mark's delegacy policy on the GA and if I'm wrong, I'll gladly correct my record.

Big Bad Badger wrote:

Great Algerstonia wrote:Opposed due to GA noncompliance by the nominee

What does GA non-compliance even mean? As far as I know, there is no game mechanic to be able to ignore GA policy.

It is an RP thing.

Personally, I think voting against an SC commend for GA noncompliance is rather silly. This looks pretty good so far.

On non-compliance, which currently seems to be the major source of opposition so far: Though I am personally opposed to using non-compliance as a reason to vote against a commendation not related to the GA, as I said in the non-compliance declaration thread, I understand why people would oppose it, even if Halo is not a member of the WA right now, since the proposal does mention his work in positions that need WA membership, for example Delegate and Guardian of the West. I guess I can't please everyone.

Honeydewistania wrote:I'm not a fan of the Edlhus section. I'd say remove it, or at least include something more substantial than just building embassies.

Thanks for the comment! Edlhus is a region Halo founded himself and I like the fact of its unique purpose so far, but I understand if it isn't particularly commendable. He also served as the Imperator (head of government) for the first six months of Edlhus' existence before passing on that role to Aynia, so I'll see if there is anything else worth mentioning during that term.

Lord Dominator wrote:Your introductory clause isn’t really written from the SC viewpoint - particularly as nominee isn’t great language for a hypothetically passed resolution to have.

Looks good at first glance however

Thank you as well, rewriting the introduction will be on my to-do list for the upcoming 2nd draft.

Comfed wrote:

Big Bad Badger wrote:
What does GA non-compliance even mean? As far as I know, there is no game mechanic to be able to ignore GA policy.

It is an RP thing.

Thank you.


So my question for Alger or anyone who knows is where and when was Halo GA non-compliant? Honestly this non-compliance thing looks like make believe.

The attitudes of several GA voices today have been clarifying and I no longer care about Halo's or anyone else's non-compliance with GA resolutions.

Full support for this commendation, in principle. I'm sure there will be more alterations made to the draft before submission.

Support for the nominee. And hai Gio!

Feedback:

playing a critical role in establishing and promoting a successful neutral platform for TWP nations' representatives to report on national happenings and lore and handle situations of international importance;

What is this supposed to mean? I get what you're trying to do but not sure what you're referring too here. Did Halo make an alliance or RP forums or something?

authoring multiple articles and editing the early editions of The West Pacifican, the regional newspaper later renamed into The Western Post that publishes monthly issues with stellar reputation;

Could it be said that Halo helped found it?

[*]seeking to end the conflict between Lazarus, Osiris, and The Pacific, during which the latter two were treatied allies of TWP, by contacting their leaders and pushing for peaceful diplomacy;[/list]

This is good but I think it can use a little elaboration, specifically in how Halo pushed for peaceful diplomacy.

[*]their commitment to regional security by maintaining high endorsements and influence to eject troublesome nations during their Delegate and Guardian terms, even achieving during their last Guardian term the regional record of 750 endorsements for a non-Delegate nation;

I'm not sure if this should be mentioned, in all honesty. There have been many, many nations who have been tasked with ensuring regional security via stockpiling endorsements, and endotarting is not really hard. Many new records were also reached as part of the Drew-boom

I know being a Guardian is typically a more involved role compared to other Feeder security councils, so maybe Halo did some other things worth mentioning as Guardian?

[*]their aid in establishing The West Pacific Master Dispatch as the modern way for the government to publish guides, foreign updates, and other important resources;

I wouldn't phrase it this way because I don't think anyone really copied TWP's dispatch style. That being said, TWP's dispatches are awesome, so I'd probably focus more on how having made TWP's dispatch system so neat makes information seeking more efficient or something more along those lines. Aka just going into detail on why Halo's designs in this area are so great, rather than stating they are great.

[*]their institution of weekly meetings for the regional Cabinet, as a way to ensure accountability by discussing recent happenings and check the progress of plans;

If this is continued today, may be a good thing to mention continuity.

[*]their term as Chancellor of the University, in which they revamped the former Ministry of Education and created an institution for nations to learn about regional culture and government, to create new generations of regional leaders;[/list]

I would try to add how they rebuilt the University. It's great that he did so, but what changes did he actually make that made the University this great resource?

[list][*]Culdi in Albion, as the Archbishop of the Church of Jormunr, an advisory role in which they recruited new nations and contributed to regional culture by creating a new religion and its lore;

How did the creation of a new religion and its lore contribution to Albion's regional culture? Did it help bring the community together? Help encourage a new ideal in the region? Etc.

[*]Marcarius Halohin in Edlhus, as the founder of the first region themed on unique lineage relationships between nations, and builder of embassies with notable regions like Karma and Caer Sidi;

Agree with Honey's comment on this clause.

Big Bad Badger wrote:

Comfed wrote:It is an RP thing.

Thank you.


So my question for Alger or anyone who knows is where and when was Halo GA non-compliant? Honestly this non-compliance thing looks like make believe.

Well, they signed this dispatch written by United Massachusetts. This dispatch stated that those who signed will not comply with all resolutions protecting the right to choose. This dispatch is nothing but a slap in the face to the GA community. Moreover, the WA should not commend a nation who refuses to follow its laws.

That being said, I'll retract my firm opposition if Halo comes out and denounces the dispatch.

Astrobolt wrote:

Big Bad Badger wrote:
Thank you.


So my question for Alger or anyone who knows is where and when was Halo GA non-compliant? Honestly this non-compliance thing looks like make believe.

Well, they signed this dispatch written by United Massachusetts. This dispatch stated that those who signed will not comply with all resolutions protecting the right to choose. This dispatch is nothing but a slap in the face to the GA community. Moreover, the WA should not commend a nation who refuses to follow its laws.

That being said, I'll retract my firm opposition if Halo comes out and denounces the dispatch.

Thank you for pointing this out. I believe that this dispatch is pure make believe. It has no bearing on game mechanics and in my opinion is moot. Empty words.

I would vote for, and consider the signing of the dispatch mentioned above to be an extra reason to support the commendation.

Badger wrote:

Astrobolt wrote:

Well, they signed this dispatch written by United Massachusetts. This dispatch stated that those who signed will not comply with all resolutions protecting the right to choose. This dispatch is nothing but a slap in the face to the GA community. Moreover, the WA should not commend a nation who refuses to follow its laws.

That being said, I'll retract my firm opposition if Halo comes out and denounces the dispatch.

Thank you for pointing this out. I believe that this dispatch is pure make believe. It has no bearing on game mechanics and in my opinion is moot. Empty words.

NationStates is one big game of make believe. I kinda thought that was a given. Having seen neither any indication that the nominee condemns their past involvement with the various rogue states who signed onto their noncompliance agreement, nor any halfway compelling argument for commending nations that disregard their most fundamental obligation as members of the World Assembly, I remain opposed to all commendations of Saint Mark or any other nations that flaunt their noncompliance as some sort of righteous crusade.

Wallenburg wrote:

Badger wrote:Thank you for pointing this out. I believe that this dispatch is pure make believe. It has no bearing on game mechanics and in my opinion is moot. Empty words.

NationStates is one big game of make believe. I kinda thought that was a given. Having seen neither any indication that the nominee condemns their past involvement with the various rogue states who signed onto their noncompliance agreement, nor any halfway compelling argument for commending nations that disregard their most fundamental obligation as members of the World Assembly, I remain opposed to all commendations of Saint Mark or any other nations that flaunt their noncompliance as some sort of righteous crusade.

There are actual game mechanics that mean something, such as issues and endorsements. Then there is this. There is actually no way Halo or any of the other signers of this crap dispatch can actually follow through via game mechanics. Which is the only thing that truly matters. It would be similar to someone creating a dispatch or posting on an rmb their desire to have a war with another nation. It can't happen in-game and should have no bearing in-game. A noncompliance statement is truly just a waste of cyber space with no actual bearing.

I can be ok with not liking the Commendation. I can be ok with not liking Halo. But not liking this commendation because of this make believe shit is really poor.

Big Bad Badger wrote:I can be ok with not liking the Commendation. I can be ok with not liking Halo. But not liking this commendation because of this make believe shit is really poor.

Well RP is important to quite a lot of players, and it is the main reason that those players are on the game. I think having an RP reason for not liking a commendation (that has to be written IC!) if you're an RP player is fair, I think. People approach the game different ways.

Zukchiva wrote:Support for the nominee. And hai Gio!

Thanks for your support! I'll answer the feedback.

Zukchiva wrote:

playing a critical role in establishing and promoting a successful neutral platform for TWP nations' representatives to report on national happenings and lore and handle situations of international importance;

What is this supposed to mean? I get what you're trying to do but not sure what you're referring too here. Did Halo make an alliance or RP forums or something?

Halo aided in the creation of the current TWP RP Discord, and promoted it since RP was previously deemphasized in the region, eventually helping the current regional RP to grow into what it is today. It's tricky to insert that in a proposal since "roleplay" is illegal, so I'll try to come up with a better clause myself, or take any wording change suggestions if you have them.

Zukchiva wrote:

authoring multiple articles and editing the early editions of The West Pacifican, the regional newspaper later renamed into The Western Post that publishes monthly issues with stellar reputation;

Could it be said that Halo helped found it?

Well, not quite. If you check the list of all editions, the first few editions (just after United RussoAsia was ousted and his own newspaper terminated) weren't edited by Halo, and he only took the editor position during 2017. He later wrote several articles during his Delegacy, though none in the very first editions so I don't think it would be accurate to say that.

Zukchiva wrote:

[*]seeking to end the conflict between Lazarus, Osiris, and The Pacific, during which the latter two were treatied allies of TWP, by contacting their leaders and pushing for peaceful diplomacy;[/list]

This is good but I think it can use a little elaboration, specifically in how Halo pushed for peaceful diplomacy.

That's a fair point. I talked with some people active in these events and it seems that they were unsure if some of the details could even be revealed and made public, though I'll see what else I can add in the clause.

Zukchiva wrote:

[*]their commitment to regional security by maintaining high endorsements and influence to eject troublesome nations during their Delegate and Guardian terms, even achieving during their last Guardian term the regional record of 750 endorsements for a non-Delegate nation;

I'm not sure if this should be mentioned, in all honesty. There have been many, many nations who have been tasked with ensuring regional security via stockpiling endorsements, and endotarting is not really hard. Many new records were also reached as part of the Drew-boom

I know being a Guardian is typically a more involved role compared to other Feeder security councils, so maybe Halo did some other things worth mentioning as Guardian?

Guardians have the two primary tasks of keeping the region secure from coups, and watching the RMB to enforce our regional rules so that it stays a welcoming place for new and old nations alike, but that is the general role so perhaps you have a point in not mentioning that. I'm not exactly sure about what did you mean with "more involved role," but if it refers to help with government tasks, then I'm afraid not, since there is a clear divide between Guardians and Cabinet, with the latter being rather composed of ministers and government advisors (even though there is some overlap, such as myself).

Zukchiva wrote:

[*]their aid in establishing The West Pacific Master Dispatch as the modern way for the government to publish guides, foreign updates, and other important resources;

I wouldn't phrase it this way because I don't think anyone really copied TWP's dispatch style. That being said, TWP's dispatches are awesome, so I'd probably focus more on how having made TWP's dispatch system so neat makes information seeking more efficient or something more along those lines. Aka just going into detail on why Halo's designs in this area are so great, rather than stating they are great.

I think the wording may have confused people here, and I apologize for that. I didn't mean "the modern way for any government" but rather "the modern way for TWP's government", but I did not want to get too repetitive with the word TWP at first I believe. Nevertheless I'll make that change; and expanding the clause by explaining the style is an interesting so I'll also think about it.

Zukchiva wrote:

[*]their institution of weekly meetings for the regional Cabinet, as a way to ensure accountability by discussing recent happenings and check the progress of plans;

If this is continued today, may be a good thing to mention continuity.

I understand this point, though several other ideas spearheaded by Halo mentioned in this proposal are also continued today, such as the improvements to TWP's Foreign Affairs and the Etiquette of the Hall just to name a few. I think if I mentioned that for each point to which that applies, it would create some sort of perception that things in TWP don't last, and that wouldn't be great.

Zukchiva wrote:

[*]their term as Chancellor of the University, in which they revamped the former Ministry of Education and created an institution for nations to learn about regional culture and government, to create new generations of regional leaders;[/list]

I would try to add how they rebuilt the University. It's great that he did so, but what changes did he actually make that made the University this great resource?

Upon more research on the topic I felt like this clause is actually not very accurate, so I'll make the changes to fix this problem. Specifically, Halo did indeed assume the role of Chancellor and is still the incumbent to this date; in this position encouraging new nations to join, welcoming them to the University and helping to make sure the classes progressed as planned. Though the changes themselves were led by his successor, after all they were only crafted and published after the end of his Delegate term. That's not to say that Halo isn't important to the history of the University in any way, he indeed is, though I'll make the adjustments to make this more accurate.

Zukchiva wrote:

[list][*]Culdi in Albion, as the Archbishop of the Church of Jormunr, an advisory role in which they recruited new nations and contributed to regional culture by creating a new religion and its lore;

How did the creation of a new religion and its lore contribution to Albion's regional culture? Did it help bring the community together? Help encourage a new ideal in the region? Etc.

Halo's actions helped to revive the community for some time and bring more regional activity, even though it did not prevent the eventual inactivity of the region in the long-term as you can now see in the region page. Still I feel like it's interesting to include due to the hard work put into this, though other people may disagree.

Zukchiva wrote:

[*]Marcarius Halohin in Edlhus, as the founder of the first region themed on unique lineage relationships between nations, and builder of embassies with notable regions like Karma and Caer Sidi;

Agree with Honey's comment on this clause.

Since I already answered to their comment, I'll note that I already have some ideas on what to put here: Halo did not only found it but also of course designed the entire way the regional government works, so I can explain a bit more about that in the Edlhus clause.

Thanks for the feedback again! I am planning to release a 2nd draft soon (including all these changes), though there's of course no rush and I welcome any comments people may have.

I’ll have some specific comments on the draft later Gio, but I’d like to address some more general points raised in this thread.

For me, when deciding on how I will vote on an SC C&C, only two things are important. First is the proposal well written, in terms of flow, grammar, spelling, layout etc., etc. Secondly has the author made a convincing case for the nominee to be awarded the C&C. I’d like to think that most of the SC regulars work in a similar manner.

The recent insistence of some RPers and GA regulars that something called compliance should taken into account from outside of the proposal is distracting and extremely annoying.

Vote against a proposal for your own reasons as you wish, but please do not try and impose your views on us.