[DRAFT] Liberate The Proletariat Coalition

[A Bloodred Moon]

This is a draft I have had for a long time, although I never could decide whether to move forward with it or not. It was sparked by two attempts to repeal the condemnation of Euroislanders, another RLA region. While I was and am opposed to erasing the history behind that resolution, I thought that two of the main arguements had some validity behind it: A) Euroislanders was not the region leading the destructions, but rather TPC, and B) that we have previously kept condemnations and offensive liberations for In-Character crimes and Out-of-Character offenses respectively. This proposal seeks to address both issues, and while I have no intention of authoring a repeal of the Euroislander proposal myself, this might at least open up the possibility for such a proposal to be considered.

On top of this, offensive liberations have historically attempted to open up regions with an active founder to ensure it could be invaded should the founder cease-to-exist. One of its criticisms is that this functionally never happened (or, in the case of TNI, the founder simply returns) - The Proletariat Coalition faces no such issue, due to the lack of a founder.

I am open to feedback on both the contents of the proposal and whether to pursue it at all.

The Security Council,

Believing forum destruction to be a crime against regional culture and heritage, no matter the victim, and one that should not go unpunished;

Noting that The Proletariat Coalition was a prominent member of the Red Liberty Alliance, an alliance dedicated to defending socialist regions from invasion;

Shocked to discover that, despite its noble intentions, the intelligence agency of the Red Liberty Alliance, spearheaded by members of The Proletariat Coalition, carried out an attack on the forums of DEN, completely destroying and wiping out all culture and history contained within;

Appalled that, after this event, the Red Liberty Alliance Intelligence Department, overseen by members of The Proletariat Coalition, proceeded to attack and destroy the forums of The Black Hawks, again erasing all culture and heritage found inside these forums;

Disturbed to learn that in the wake of these attacks, the Red Liberty Alliance proceeded to launch a third and final strike against the Invaders Army forums. In the aftermath of the destruction, the Proletariat Coalition publicly hailed the extensive loss of history contained within these forums as a great victory;

Aware that The Proletariat Coalition was the home of several of the agents committing or overseeing the destructive acts, and the 'crown jewel' of the Red Liberty Alliance. Following the destructions, The Proletariat Coalition propagated it as a victory, publicly supporting the methods and proudly mentioning the loss of history and culture as a propaganda method;

Firmly convinced that The Proletariat Coalition is not deserving of protection by this Council, and should not be allowed to hide behind its barriers;

Wishing to show that these vile acts will go neither unpunished nor unnoticed, and to allow opposing forces to seek justice for these acts;

Hereby liberates The Proletariat Coalition.

[Lord Dominator]

Support, I do believe - excellent writing at first read

[Numero Capitan]

TL;DR version: raiders desperately looking for a win, drag up 17 year old event none of them were around for to try and create themselves a new raid target.

None of the perpetrators are left in the passworded community that resides in the region. Feel free to try and convince us that we should care about this enough to do anything about it now though.

If anyone is in any doubts about the insincerity of the author of this proposal, the author is themselves a regional officer in Unknown, a region formerly condemned for these exact actions with the Council of Narnia and Crusaders of Justice the victims. Maybe we should draft up their Liberation too?

[Goobergunchia]

What Numero said.

I'll note that despite the arguments raised about trying to more properly target criticism of the events in question, exactly nobody has reached out to me regarding Democratic Underground even though neither myself nor any member of my region had any foreknowledge of the forum destruction operations. One LWU trophy is enough.

[Wallenburg]

Numero's points far outweigh those of this proposal. I am opposed to this.

[Cormactopia Prime]

If anyone is in any doubts about the insincerity of the author of this proposal, the author is themselves a regional officer in Unknown, a region formerly condemned for these exact actions with the Council of Narnia and Crusaders of Justice the victims. Maybe we should draft up their Liberation too?

Unknown expressed remorse and made strides in changing the atmosphere that led to the forum destruction, hence the repeal of their condemnation. To my knowledge, neither Allied States of EuroIslanders nor The Proletariat Coalition have ever done that. You can correct me if I'm wrong.

Unless someone can demonstrate a record of remorse and reform in TPC similar to Unknown's, I support this proposal.

I also still support repealing Condemn ASE because of that region not being primarily responsible for the forum destructions in question, for the record. With the upcoming Declaration category on the horizon, I may once again pursue repeal of the condemnation and replace it with a more appropriate Declaration relating to ASE's conduct. So I think this proposal targeting TPC for liberation is even more appropriate when viewed in the context of a potential repeal of Condemn ASE.

I'll note that despite the arguments raised about trying to more properly target criticism of the events in question, exactly nobody has reached out to me regarding Democratic Underground even though neither myself nor any member of my region had any foreknowledge of the forum destruction operations. One LWU trophy is enough.

Nowhere in the WFE does LWU say Democratic Underground was responsible as a region for acts of forum destruction, only that it was an RLA member. It was. I don't think anyone can dispute that the RLA and raider regions were bitter enemies, with raider regions having very good reason to consider the RLA an enemy beyond merely being a defender organization, so I really don't see how anyone can dispute the validity of LWU conquering an RLA member region.

[A Bloodred Moon]

TL;DR version: raiders desperately looking for a win, drag up 17 year old event none of them were around for to try and create themselves a new raid target.

Yes, opening up targets is rather the point of offensive liberations.

I’m curious, though. Why exactly is a comment by a spy worthy of a response years after it happened but forum destruction isn’t? I’m pretty open about my desire to raid the region should this pass - but I am entirely unsure why you expressed support for liberating TNI, but seem to be arguing against this one. Surely forum destruction is a crime worse than invading and awful enough to set aside ideological barriers for?

None of the perpetrators are left in the passworded community that resides in the region.

There was an attempt to claim several high-ranking members of TPC had no knowledge of this. I do not buy this claim, and Blackbird shows up every so often to tell us all how disposable forums were, so I have my doubts he buys it either.

Feel free to try and convince us that we should care about this enough to do anything about it now though.

Given the raw enthusiasm defenders displayed at the prospect of liberating an ancient raider region for the purpose of revenge, I expect their support alongside raider support. Given the complete lack of anything remotely addressing the resolution in your post, I see no reason anyone who cares about forum destruction to oppose this.

If anyone is in any doubts about the insincerity of the author of this proposal, the author is themselves a regional officer in Unknown, a region formerly condemned for these exact actions with the Council of Narnia and Crusaders of Justice the victims. Maybe we should draft up their Liberation too?

Insincerity on my part, but not yours? Remarkable, since your main argument seems to be attacking the author rather than anything proposal-related. But since more than a third of your post consists of this, I will address it.

The circumstances are not remotely comparable, of course: the Proletariat Coalition carried out these attacks as an organisation, over the course of a full year, with each destruction being hailed as a victory. In fact, they proudly pointed to the amount of history lost in these attacks to show they were successful.

By contrast, Unknown was condemned for a single agent going rogue. What Unknown was condemned for was not banning this individual. They later realised their mistake and apologised for it - this apology was not only accepted by the actual victims of the destruction, but was also seen as sincere enough to repeal the condemnation. There is a reason that one is repealed and the ASE one stands to this day.

You previously mentioned that the perpetrators have left, implying that you believe the region should not be held accountable for the actions of its members. Yet the condemnation that you are waving around, as if it is remotely comparable in circumstance, did exactly that. If you want, though, feel free to draft a liberation proposal yourself.

Cormac - in the interest of accuracy, TPC did apologise. There are several factors to conclude it wasn’t sincere, however: firstly, it was done under the threat of destruction, with 50 something raiders holding the region. As an aside, the region that raided it was Unknown. Unknown then made the decision to spare them, related to the aforementioned incident. Secondly, when it was hastily sent to Unknown (and none of the affected parties), it did not include Blackbird’s signature initially, who was the RLA’s intelligence director at the time. He only added it later when there was little other choice. Lastly, this apology came five or six years after the actual destructions and since it was only prompted by the threat of raiders actually taking their revenge, TPC likely didn’t feel any remorse whatsoever.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Cormac - in the interest of accuracy, TPC did apologise. There are several factors to conclude it wasn’t sincere, however: firstly, it was done under the threat of destruction, with 50 something raiders holding the region. As an aside, the region that raided it was Unknown. Unknown then made the decision to spare them, related to the aforementioned incident. Secondly, when it was hastily sent to Unknown (and none of the affected parties), it did not include Blackbird’s signature initially, who was the RLA’s intelligence director at the time. He only added it later when there was little other choice. Lastly, this apology came five or six years after the actual destructions and since it was only prompted by the threat of raiders actually taking their revenge, TPC likely didn’t feel any remorse whatsoever.

Thanks for that -- I actually don't know a lot about those events as they were before my time and I've never delved into the history, primarily because I wasn't actively involved in regions affected by the history of it, and it's not exactly a pleasant topic to explore in any case. Good to have the details.

Given those circumstances, I'd have to agree that an apology made under duress seems less than genuine, so I continue to support this proposal.

[Numero Capitan]

Whilst the Black Hawks destruction was clearly an RLIA operation, I am not sure how strong the link to TPC is? That was carried out by Pugna/Nick who was PNG in TPC and a member of North Pacific (as Pugna) and later DEN (as Persaetus). They lived about 5,000 miles from TRF/Ketoprofen, who were responsible for the other acts. Presumably they were at one point a resident in an RLA region but I've never been able to find out which.

Unknown expressed remorse and made strides in changing the atmosphere that led to the forum destruction, hence the repeal of their condemnation. To my knowledge, neither Allied States of EuroIslanders nor The Proletariat Coalition have ever done that. You can correct me if I'm wrong.

Unless someone can demonstrate a record of remorse and reform in TPC similar to Unknown's, I support this proposal.

viewtopic.php?p=7339312#p7339312 is the link. They couldn't really have expressed it in stronger terms, albeit as a retrospective apology.

TPC was not wholly innocent, as it was the home of The Red Factions and Ketoprofen, but it was raided/punished and faced up to its sins ten years ago. None of the remaining natives have ever celebrated forum destruction in the way that members of ASE did, and nearly all the remaining natives co-signed the genuine apology linked above. Any attempt to further punish is not justified and is motivated by self-interest and nothing else.

Elindra/Kshrlmnt (who led the raid), didn't doubt their sincerity and put it as well as anyone could:

There are few crimes in Nationstates worse than forum destruction, and few more valid reasons for revenge.

But tempting as revenge can be—or as deserved, or just—it is essential to remember that people and regions change over time. What was once condoned—or at least left largely unchallenged—will not always remain so.

Such is the case of The Proletariat Coalition. In my ten months in the region, not once did I see any approval or encouragement of forum destruction. Not only that, they have shown themselves willing to make peace over the issue. Here I see a region that has changed; a region worthy of forgiveness for the crimes of the distant past.

And so, my brothers and sisters in DEN, The Black Hawks, and Lone Wolves United, I urge you to give this region your forgiveness—for us to forgive as we would be forgiven.

Ladies and gentlemen, we took a region that couldn’t be taken and held it against everything defenders could throw at us. Now we’ve found a chance for honorable peace. Let us take it; it’s time for us to go.

Elindra Kshrlmnt Dion Diablessa
Regent and Warlord of Unknown
Lady of Loquacity
The Heartless Doxy of Eldorado Poe

[Kylia Quilor]

This is something I wholeheartedly support.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Whilst the Black Hawks destruction was clearly an RLIA operation, I am not sure how strong the link to TPC is? That was carried out by Pugna/Nick who was PNG in TPC and a member of North Pacific (as Pugna) and later DEN (as Persaetus). They lived about 5,000 miles from TRF/Ketoprofen, who were responsible for the other acts. Presumably they were at one point a resident in an RLA region but I've never been able to find out which.

Was Blackbird not the RLA's intelligence director and ultimately responsible for all of these operations? That's the biggest link to TPC, is it not?

https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=7339312#p7339312 is the link. They couldn't really have expressed it in stronger terms, albeit as a retrospective apology.

TPC was not wholly innocent, as it was the home of The Red Factions and Ketoprofen, but it was raided/punished and faced up to its sins ten years ago. None of the remaining natives have ever celebrated forum destruction in the way that members of ASE did, and nearly all the remaining natives co-signed the genuine apology linked above. Any attempt to further punish is not justified and is motivated by self-interest and nothing else.

Elindra/Kshrlmnt (who led the raid), didn't doubt their sincerity and put it as well as anyone could:

I've gone back and reviewed that entire thread and I concur with Jo (and at the time, Evil Wolf) in rejecting the sincerity of the apology, for a few reasons.

First, when you look back at the thread prior to the apology you find the person who posted the apology and its first signatory, Tahar Joblis, repeatedly trying to deflect any fault for forum destruction from TPC, arguing that the ignorance of some natives meant TPC shouldn't be held accountable for the actions of its leadership, and engaging in "both sides" whataboutism. The apology was issued rather abruptly after all that and was inconsistent with what Tahar Joblis had been saying in the thread prior to that point, lending credence to the argument the apology was made under duress to avoid the destruction of TPC.

Then there were the issues with the apology itself. Notably, the apology did not include Blackbird's signature until raiders demanded it, at which time it suddenly appeared. Again, this lends credence to the argument the apology was issued merely to placate rather than being at all sincere. Then when you look at the actual text of the apology, in the very first line you find them drawing false equivalence between forum destruction and raiding when they "express [their] continuing and unending displeasure with any and all acts of community disruption, including but not limited to the deletion of forums" (emphasis mine). The equivocation and false comparison they're drawing isn't the hallmark of a sincere apology. Had they truly been sincere, they would simply have apologized for the RLA's acts of forum destruction and TPC's role in them, not tried to muddy the waters by condemning "any and all acts of community disruption."

The fact TPC turned around and then voted against Condemn Allied States of EuroIslanders on the grounds they did not accept that collective blame should be laid on anyone just underscores how little the apology meant. They collectively apologized, but then reiterated they were not collectively to blame as soon as their region was once again safe and sound against the threat of destruction. Incredibly, Tahar Joblis brought up Condemn Unknown to resume engaging in "both sides" whataboutism after Unknown had just shown mercy to TPC. How could they be sincere in a collective apology if they were still rejecting collective fault? Say what you will about Condemn ASE -- I've previously tried to repeal it -- but TPC's rationale for voting against it was completely inconsistent with their collective apology.

The apology was clearly issued under duress and was insincere from the first line. What's unfortunate is that Unknown, no doubt well meaning and trying to demonstrate empathy after coming to terms with holding itself accountable for acts of forum destruction, was so lenient in the face of such glaringly insincere rubbish. It was laudable that Unknown was so self-aware and empathetic, but unfortunate that TPC escaped just consequences as a result.

TPC should have burned, and here's to hoping it still will. Having seen the "apology" and its context, I support this proposal more than ever.

[The Python]

Bruh no. This is exactly the type of proposal I'd countercampaign

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

Very confused at seeing people whose regions are signatories of COPS - and indeed, people who have spoken in support of COPS in the past - are against holding a violator of COPS to account for their actions.

[Star City]

TPC was not wholly innocent, as it was the home of The Red Factions and Ketoprofen, but it was raided/punished and faced up to its sins ten years ago. None of the remaining natives have ever celebrated forum destruction in the way that members of ASE did, and nearly all the remaining natives co-signed the genuine apology linked above. Any attempt to further punish is not justified and is motivated by self-interest and nothing else.
[...]
The Heartless Doxy of Eldorado Poe[/i]

Now there's a name I haven't heard in a long time. Yes, I seem to recall we went over all this in 2011 and it was ancient history even then. (Personally, the most I was ever active in the RLA was when the server hosted Equilibrium and I downloaded it over dialup. That's how long ago we're talking.)

[Cormactopia Prime]

Very confused at seeing people whose regions are signatories of COPS - and indeed, people who have spoken in support of COPS in the past - are against holding a violator of COPS to account for their actions.

I'm not sure why, but COPS seems to have been thrown by the wayside in recent years with people taking forum destruction far less seriously. I do agree with you though that we should still be adhering to its standards, and I don't see any reason TPC shouldn't be held to account either, debates about the apology aside.

[A Bloodred Moon]

Bruh no. This is exactly the type of proposal I'd countercampaign

I sincerely hope you are the only one willing to defend forum destroyers, and I am confident that other defenders have more class than that.

Whilst the Black Hawks destruction was clearly an RLIA operation, I am not sure how strong the link to TPC is? That was carried out by Pugna/Nick who was PNG in TPC and a member of North Pacific (as Pugna) and later DEN (as Persaetus). They lived about 5,000 miles from TRF/Ketoprofen, who were responsible for the other acts. Presumably they were at one point a resident in an RLA region but I've never been able to find out which.

The operation was presumably overseen by Blackbird, who was RLA Intelligence Director at the time of the operation. I will alter the wording to make this more clear.

TPC was not wholly innocent, as it was the home of The Red Factions and Ketoprofen, but it was raided/punished and faced up to its sins ten years ago. None of the remaining natives have ever celebrated forum destruction in the way that members of ASE did,

They were practically let off the hook at the time. Furthermore, your “remaining natives” narrative stands only by technicality - TPC absolutely celebrated the destruction of the forums and the history those forums contained. They proudly wave around the deletion of 16.000 posts in an article edited by Blackbird, who does still remain in the region.

and nearly all the remaining natives co-signed the genuine apology linked above. Any attempt to further punish is not justified and is motivated by self-interest and nothing else.

There is no reason to believe anyone signed a “genuine” apology, as Cormac addressed already. You yourself were the one to suggest condemning TPC rather than ASE, so this is a little surprising.

[Kylia Quilor]

I'm agreeing with both Cormac and MadJack?



Edit: but more seriously, I do agree that COPS has mattered a lot less these days. It came up a lot in 2012-2014, but barely in 2017. In 2017, at least, I still saw lots of people agreeing Forum Destruction was bad, and that COPS was just unneeded, but there does seem to be a slippage, perhaps because COPS has largely slipped from public consciousness?

[The Python]

Bruh no. This is exactly the type of proposal I'd countercampaign

I sincerely hope you are the only one willing to defend forum destroyers, and I am confident that other defenders have more class than that.

I am the only one willing to defend TPC. Read below.

What Numero said. I'll note that despite the arguments raised about trying to more properly target criticism of the events in question, exactly nobody has reached out to me regarding Democratic Underground even though neither myself nor any member of my region had any foreknowledge of the forum destruction operations. One LWU trophy is enough.

TL;DR version: raiders desperately looking for a win, drag up 17 year old event none of them were around for to try and create themselves a new raid target.

None of the perpetrators are left in the passworded community that resides in the region. Feel free to try and convince us that we should care about this enough to do anything about it now though.

If anyone is in any doubts about the insincerity of the author of this proposal, the author is themselves a regional officer in Unknown, a region formerly condemned for these exact actions with the Council of Narnia and Crusaders of Justice the victims. Maybe we should draft up their Liberation too?

tl;dr

"Hey I hope you are the only one who has this view"
Next: "Goes on to argue with someone with that view"

[Lord Dominator]

I'm agreeing with both Cormac and MadJack?

(Image)

Edit: but more seriously, I do agree that COPS has mattered a lot less these days. It came up a lot in 2012-2014, but barely in 2017. In 2017, at least, I still saw lots of people agreeing Forum Destruction was bad, and that COPS was just unneeded, but there does seem to be a slippage, perhaps because COPS has largely slipped from public consciousness?

I feel it might have a bit more to do with Discord taking over, such that losing a forum doesn’t sound comparatively as bad (notably, we haven’t collectively established standards on comparable Discord/etc destruction)

[Kylia Quilor]

It's been a while since I read the text of COPS, but couldn't it be argued it covers discord too, as it is offsite property?

Plus, the rise of discord makes the forums even more important imo, as the repository for long-form content to be referenced.

But then again, I'm still kinda mixed on discord to begin with, so my view is probably far from the norm there.

[Lord Dominator]

It's been a while since I read the text of COPS, but couldn't it be argued it covers discord too, as it is offsite property?

Plus, the rise of discord makes the forums even more important imo, as the repository for long-form content to be referenced.

But then again, I'm still kinda mixed on discord to begin with, so my view is probably far from the norm there.

The general impression I’ve gotten is that people generally agree that the comparable acts on Discord are bad, but we’ve not really gotten around to saying so explicitly and formally.

[Numero Capitan]

The remaining natives of TPC are no more forum destroyers than Jo/A Bloodred Moon is because of their membership in Unknown.

You want to raid TPC? It's been done before, twice, I'm sure you can stretch your imagination to something more creative. You can do it again but they won't give a damn, because they know you can't hurt them and they'll outlive your interest in trying. They even discussed removing the password themselves because it really doesn't matter with their influence bank.

Everyone in here wants something more interesting to happen in gameplay, this tired tirade ain't it.

Signing off from this thread before the tedium kills me.

[Cormactopia Prime]

The remaining natives of TPC are no more forum destroyers than Jo/A Bloodred Moon is because of their membership in Unknown.

I'm confused. Do you not consider Blackbird a remaining native of TPC, or do you actually think the person in charge of RLA intelligence -- which is to say, the operations that resulted in repeated acts of forum destruction -- is actually equivalent to a player in Unknown who has never been a member of the region when it engaged in forum destruction? You've gone to some really incredible lengths to shill for TPC, but equating Blackbird and Jo really takes the cake.

You want to raid TPC? It's been done before, twice, I'm sure you can stretch your imagination to something more creative. You can do it again but they won't give a damn, because they know you can't hurt them and they'll outlive your interest in trying. They even discussed removing the password themselves because it really doesn't matter with their influence bank.

If it truly is impossible to destroy it -- I really haven't bothered to look into it -- then it could always be tagged at every available opportunity.

Everyone in here wants something more interesting to happen in gameplay, this tired tirade ain't it.

It's offensive that you think this has anything to do with curing boredom.

Signing off from this thread before the tedium kills me.

Probably a great idea given the hot takes in your most recent post. Maybe come back when you're not equating a person who actually should be held accountable for the acts of forum destruction that occurred under his watch, as well as natives who were present at the time, with a newer player who has never once had any involvement whatsoever in forum destruction. That entire comment of yours was disgraceful and I certainly won't miss your presence in this thread.

I hope the extremely objectionable views you've presented in this thread aren't representative of widespread defender opinion.

[Islamic Holy Sites]

What does liberation do?

[Kylia Quilor]

It removes the password imposed by the delegate, and thus makes a region vulnerable to being raided/liberated, if founded. Usually they're used when raiders manage to hold a region long enough to put on a PW, to give liberators another chance to 'free' the region.

Sometimes they've been used offensively, as in this case, to open bad actor regions up to attack.