[DRAFT] Commend Atlantian Oceania

[Hulldom]

Though I do suppose it can count for AO because these were won while those nations were in AO. I think you need to clarify that detail further.

I agree with this, fwiw. There's no official tally of how many trophies any region has. If there were an official tally it'd more likely follow Wikipedia's system of listing the nation with whatever flag they had at the time and whatever region they had at the time.

Wasn’t sure if there was. Though I assume it wouldn’t be too hard to do some due diligence and figure it out, even if such thing doesn’t exist at the moment.

[Atlantian Oceania]

While this isn't the first time this question has come up (Apparently it has been a recommendation since 2011 viewtopic.php?p=4887069#p4887069 ) It is very appreciative to see the questions - a number of users equally qualified to provide answers already have but this account will monitor as need be or be available for any direct questions as needed. To some of the points already raised:

under normal circumstances, this would be uncontroversial, but that doesn't change the fact that there are fresh wounds in NSS that need time to heal before this goes to vote.

Voting takes place gameside and is unlikely to be affected by any minor IC/OOC ongoing events. I believe the key for Security proposals like this is to get the language correct and thats what the Author has been working to do for a number of months by all accounts. When they get it right and feel it is ready for a vote they will propose it - and at that time, regional delegates from across the entire game will decide whether it is ready to be put forth to the entire NS population. As for Atlantian Oceania - it has existed for 17 years. As has already been stated, nations come and nations go. Many have been there for 17 years, some have been there for 17 days. This proposal is about the accomplishments and contributions of the region and its members over the course of this time period and whether those as a whole are worthy of commendation. A number of the nations you seem to be implying would need time to consider are the very ones responding to the questions being posed in this thread. Perhaps this even helps to close those 'fresh wounds' but more importantly - hopefully your concern has been wholly mitigated at this point.

---

Though I assume it wouldn’t be too hard to do some due diligence and figure it out, even if such thing doesn’t exist at the moment.

The gameside flag (at right) of Atlantian Oceania includes a star below for each World Cup won by a nation who was a member of the region. The number was determined at some point on the NS Sports Discord though never published as an official document / record kept. Regardless of what the specific number is, it is known that Atlantian Oceania has both hosted and won the most total World Cups when compared with any other region in the game.

The most number of Nationstates World Cup Titles (37 titles) belong to Atlantian Oceania and the individual title record is shared between Starblaydia, Vilita, and Valanora (5 each).


"37 Nationstates World Cup Titles, a record for one region.", leave out Starblaydia, again.

Noting for lines like this it may be appropriate to include "At time of writing..." as Atlantian Oceania may earn more World Cup titles in the future - some of which may be won by a combination of Valanora, Vilita and/or Starblaydia - the individual record holders who each earned all 5 of their co-record breaking number of Cups while in Atlantian Oceania

"A record number of World Cups hosted by an individual region" (Unsure if this is true, but again, I don't think you should laud the contributions of individuals in a regional commendation unless strictly necessary.)

A quick count got approximately 54 unique World Cups co-hosted by AO which - just at 'over 50' would be a record among any individual region

---

the old-timers aren't always eager to shamelessly self-promote like that. Another issue you might face is that AO isn't all that involved in the WA, so quite what qualities and proven achievements you might need to know for a SC Commendation proposal might not be obvious for our members.

A more-than-decent number of AO nations have already been commended for their individual works (Commerce Heights, Audioslavia, Valanora and myself, for example), and while that was never done directly as a concerted AO effort, it very much speaks to the culture of the region that Vilita crafted in those early days of the mid 2000s.

I'd point to the success, for instance, of the Atlantian Oceania Confederation of Association Football, which is by far the oldest regional football/soccer organisation on NS (currently running the 63rd edition), and is pretty much the NS equivalent of UEFA, given the average strength of the nations present in it, and it's history of community leaders and organisers. The AOCAF Cup is the oldest and arguably most prestigious regional tournament on NS, and has not just been a closed shop dominated by users who enter the World Cup, either, as teams like Pacitalia (the record-holding 10-times winners), Lamoni and 95X - none of whom are known for their NSWC involvement - have all lifted the trophy.

Acknowledging Valentine Z’s 3rd place finish in the GENSEC elections with Atlantian Oceania as the nations running mate behind the backing of the residents of AO,

Relevant? AO's place in the community is certainly noteworthy, but is this their biggest achievement?

For further documentation on this type of achievement, this factbook listing shows some of the other April Fools / Gameside events that Atlantian Oceania has participated in alongside other NS Sports partners https://www.nationstates.net/nation=vil ... id=1007273 This includes placing first among all Regions in NS during ZDay7 for Must Survivors with No Infected https://www.nationstates.net/page=zday_ ... tober_2018 . Notably it shows a strong history of collaboration and organization for the gameside events with a plethora of Top 5/10 finishes in such event standings - if they are to be used as a metric in any way.

Atlantian Oceania has a robust hall of records (Offsite Forum) with many IC references if needed to support your efforts, Sorianora, and if you need access to any of those feel free to reach out and we can facilitate that.

[Sorianora]

While this isn't the first time this question has come up (Apparently it has been a recommendation since 2011 viewtopic.php?p=4887069#p4887069 ) It is very appreciative to see the questions - a number of users equally qualified to provide answers already have but this account will monitor as need be or be available for any direct questions as needed. To some of the points already raised:

under normal circumstances, this would be uncontroversial, but that doesn't change the fact that there are fresh wounds in NSS that need time to heal before this goes to vote.

Voting takes place gameside and is unlikely to be affected by any minor IC/OOC ongoing events. I believe the key for Security proposals like this is to get the language correct and thats what the Author has been working to do for a number of months by all accounts. When they get it right and feel it is ready for a vote they will propose it - and at that time, regional delegates from across the entire game will decide whether it is ready to be put forth to the entire NS population. As for Atlantian Oceania - it has existed for 17 years. As has already been stated, nations come and nations go. Many have been there for 17 years, some have been there for 17 days. This proposal is about the accomplishments and contributions of the region and its members over the course of this time period and whether those as a whole are worthy of commendation. A number of the nations you seem to be implying would need time to consider are the very ones responding to the questions being posed in this thread. Perhaps this even helps to close those 'fresh wounds' but more importantly - hopefully your concern has been wholly mitigated at this point.

---

Though I assume it wouldn’t be too hard to do some due diligence and figure it out, even if such thing doesn’t exist at the moment.

The gameside flag (at right) of Atlantian Oceania includes a star below for each World Cup won by a nation who was a member of the region. The number was determined at some point on the NS Sports Discord though never published as an official document / record kept. Regardless of what the specific number is, it is known that Atlantian Oceania has both hosted and won the most total World Cups when compared with any other region in the game.

The most number of Nationstates World Cup Titles (37 titles) belong to Atlantian Oceania and the individual title record is shared between Starblaydia, Vilita, and Valanora (5 each).


"37 Nationstates World Cup Titles, a record for one region.", leave out Starblaydia, again.

Noting for lines like this it may be appropriate to include "At time of writing..." as Atlantian Oceania may earn more World Cup titles in the future - some of which may be won by a combination of Valanora, Vilita and/or Starblaydia - the individual record holders who each earned all 5 of their co-record breaking number of Cups while in Atlantian Oceania

"A record number of World Cups hosted by an individual region" (Unsure if this is true, but again, I don't think you should laud the contributions of individuals in a regional commendation unless strictly necessary.)

A quick count got approximately 54 unique World Cups co-hosted by AO which - just at 'over 50' would be a record among any individual region

---

the old-timers aren't always eager to shamelessly self-promote like that. Another issue you might face is that AO isn't all that involved in the WA, so quite what qualities and proven achievements you might need to know for a SC Commendation proposal might not be obvious for our members.

A more-than-decent number of AO nations have already been commended for their individual works (Commerce Heights, Audioslavia, Valanora and myself, for example), and while that was never done directly as a concerted AO effort, it very much speaks to the culture of the region that Vilita crafted in those early days of the mid 2000s.

I'd point to the success, for instance, of the Atlantian Oceania Confederation of Association Football, which is by far the oldest regional football/soccer organisation on NS (currently running the 63rd edition), and is pretty much the NS equivalent of UEFA, given the average strength of the nations present in it, and it's history of community leaders and organisers. The AOCAF Cup is the oldest and arguably most prestigious regional tournament on NS, and has not just been a closed shop dominated by users who enter the World Cup, either, as teams like Pacitalia (the record-holding 10-times winners), Lamoni and 95X - none of whom are known for their NSWC involvement - have all lifted the trophy.

Acknowledging Valentine Z’s 3rd place finish in the GENSEC elections with Atlantian Oceania as the nations running mate behind the backing of the residents of AO,

Relevant? AO's place in the community is certainly noteworthy, but is this their biggest achievement?

For further documentation on this type of achievement, this factbook listing shows some of the other April Fools / Gameside events that Atlantian Oceania has participated in alongside other NS Sports partners https://www.nationstates.net/nation=vil ... id=1007273 This includes placing first among all Regions in NS during ZDay7 for Must Survivors with No Infected https://www.nationstates.net/page=zday_ ... tober_2018 . Notably it shows a strong history of collaboration and organization for the gameside events with a plethora of Top 5/10 finishes in such event standings - if they are to be used as a metric in any way.

Atlantian Oceania has a robust hall of records (Offsite Forum) with many IC references if needed to support your efforts, Sorianora, and if you need access to any of those feel free to reach out and we can facilitate that.

Thanks for all the info . It’s always helpful to hear from a nation in AO, especially a RO.

I believe there already was a commendation draft which never made it out of forums.

[Equestrian States]

The most elected World Cup Committee (WCC is the governing body of Nationstates World Cup) presidents are from Starblaydia (6), while residing in AO.

You could actually expand on this clause a bit if you wanted to. Of the 15 nations which have served as WCC President over the years, 8 were/are residents of AO: Starblaydia, Bazalonia, Vephrall, Cafundeu, Audioslavia, Valanora, Equestrian States, and Banija. I'm not sure about the exact timing for a couple of earlier of those, so it's possible they weren't in AO at the time of their presidencies, but they were all in the region at some point at the very least.

edit: Also, your numbers on Valanora as the record-holder for participation is a bit off. This sheet might be useful to you, though it doesn't include qualifying attempts, only finals appearances. I also think that the record-holder for qualifying attempts is Jeruselem, not Valanora.

[Commonwealth of Baker Park]

Regardless of the timing, the efforts of the co-sponsors should not be diminished. Thank You.

Commending Atlantian Oceania for the numerous reasons cited in the draft cannot be tied to the decision outlined in the Foxchester Declaration. Those who are now in Anaia don't deny that the achievements cited occurred while a part of AO; we in AO cannot pretend that the Anian nations forfeit their accomplishments now that they have chosen to go along a new path.

I would be the first in line to vote in favor of commending any nation formerly in AO that is now in Anaia if such a proposal came to vote.
I'd like to see a mention that many nations currently in or formerly a part of AO have served the larger NS Sport community by offering support to new nations, providing continuity over the long term across nearly every sport contested in the NS Sport forum, and being pioneers of the community we all enjoy now.

[Starblaydia]

I am happy for Starblaydia to be mentioned in terms of achievements while in AO, if it provides any extra value to the prose in terms of name recognition or similar. I literally wouldn't have stuck around this long without the region and it's various players other the years. Adding the disclaimer of 'while residing in AO' may be a bit of a mouthful, but the mentions of WC wins, WCC Presidency elections and Commendation may help with a name attached.

It seems like most of my initial thoughts have been taken up in one way or another, so I'll just give a general and wholehearted thumbs up to this proposal for the region that essentially professionalised Sports RP on NS.

[Nova Vandalia]

I am happy for Starblaydia to be mentioned in terms of achievements while in AO, if it provides any extra value to the prose in terms of name recognition or similar. I literally wouldn't have stuck around this long without the region and it's various players other the years. Adding the disclaimer of 'while residing in AO' may be a bit of a mouthful, but the mentions of WC wins, WCC Presidency elections and Commendation may help with a name attached.

It seems like most of my initial thoughts have been taken up in one way or another, so I'll just give a general and wholehearted thumbs up to this proposal for the region that essentially professionalised Sports RP on NS.

That's a darn good endorsement. While I'd still like to see more flavorful writing, that alone is enough of a reason to vote yes when it gets out of draft.

[Indusse]

Thank you for all the support we have got on this draft, we will be still working on this and will be publishing another draft soon.

[Sorianora]

Uploaded a third draft now

[Audioslavia]

[*]Valanora currently holds the record for the most cups participated in: 54 qualification attempts, with 42 finals appearances.[/list]

The figure here should be 55 finals appearances (see the leftmost column of the SRS Rankings, which details how many editions of the World Cup's last 32 each nation made. The 55th appearance is for the current World Cup) in 60 attempts (see this slightly out-dated version of the Idiot Project database from a couple of World Cups ago). Neither is a record, but Valanora have been atop the SRS Rankings - which ranks teams based on all-time performance in the World Cup - for quite some time and won't be overtaken any time soon. Perhaps that could go in that bullet-point instead.

Seven of the top ten teams in these SRS rankings spent the majority of their history in AO.

[Sorianora]

[*]Valanora currently holds the record for the most cups participated in: 54 qualification attempts, with 42 finals appearances.[/list]

The figure here should be 55 finals appearances (see the leftmost column of the SRS Rankings, which details how many editions of the World Cup's last 32 each nation made. The 55th appearance is for the current World Cup) in 60 attempts (see this slightly out-dated version of the Idiot Project database from a couple of World Cups ago). Neither is a record, but Valanora have been atop the SRS Rankings - which ranks teams based on all-time performance in the World Cup - for quite some time and won't be overtaken any time soon. Perhaps that could go in that bullet-point instead.

Seven of the top ten teams in these SRS rankings spent the majority of their history in AO.

Oh, ok thanks! Added! For the 4th draft I will most likely include the last point with AO’s domination of the SRS rankings.

[Sorianora]

/bump

[Sorianora]

CoH records added.

I hope to bring this proposal to vote sometime before the new Declaration proposal is added, so your feedback is much appreciated.

[The Python]

Full support. Some things though:

Acknowledging Valentine Z’s 3rd place finish in the GENSEC elections with Atlantian Oceania as the nations running mate behind the backing of the residents of AO,

GenSec is elected? Either I didn't know GenSec was elected, or you mean Secretary-General/SecGen. There was also 2 SecGen elections, in 2016 and 2020, so you should clarify.

[Sorianora]

Full support. Some things though:

Acknowledging Valentine Z’s 3rd place finish in the GENSEC elections with Atlantian Oceania as the nations running mate behind the backing of the residents of AO,

GenSec is elected? Either I didn't know GenSec was elected, or you mean Secretary-General/SecGen. There was also 2 SecGen elections, in 2016 and 2020, so you should clarify.

I meant SecGen thx

[Sorianora]

After some discussion with my Co-author we have decided to go ahead and push this into last call. We await and look forward to your input and criticisms.

[Morover]

I have no doubt in my mind that Atlantian Oceania is an incredibly commendable region - they are one of the most common examples of good RP-based regions that deserve recognition that I hear of. However, in the current state of the proposal, I cannot lend my support to this effort. I was about a quarter way through doing some critiques I was going to send to the author, when I realized that it would end up being a complete rewrite, and I didn't want to do that to y'all without prompting. I have listed my biggest complaints below, and if you're interested in my larger-scale rewrites then I'll go through with them.

Recognising that Atlantian Oceania (Henceforth to be referred to as AO) was the largest and the oldest sporting region (founded in 2004) in the world,

Remove "Henceforth to be referred to as", it's unnecessary. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure it still is the oldest sporting region, and probably the largest (I can't think of any larger off the top of my head).

The most elected World Cup Committee (WCC is the governing body of Nationstates World Cup) presidents are from Starblaydia (6), while residing in AO.

This need to be reframed to be more of AO's accomplishment, instead of Starblaydia's. Also, the explanation of what the WCC isn't needed.

At the time of writing the most number of Nationstates World Cup Titles (37 titles) belong to Atlantian Oceania and the individual title record is shared between Starblaydia, Vilita, and Valanora (5 each), and counting.

This could seriously use some context, I'd consider mentioning however many titles second place has, in some way.

The most number of individual World Cup Hosted belongs to Valanora (7 World Cups) of AO.

This needs to be reframed to be AO's accomplishment; Valanora is already commended for this fact.

Valanora currently holds the record for the most cups participated in: 54 qualification attempts, with 42 finals appearances.

Skimming their commendation, I don't see this mentioned explicitly - it still needs to be reframed to AO's perspective.

AO holds the record for CoH (Cup of Harmony) tournaments

Cup of Harmony is never mentioned again, so just get rid of the acronym and call it Cup of Harmony straight out.

success on the national stage at the Olympics

Without being super familiar with NS Sports terminology, is this supposed to be the *international* stage?

Praising AO’s numerous successful sporting leagues, including but not limited too: American football, baseball, motorsports, basketball, curling, ice hockey, and football,

This is horribly vague and unspecific; give details on each of these. It'll fill out the proposal nicely and help make a more compelling case for commendation.

Applauding the success of the Atlantian Oceania Cup of Association Football (AOCAF), which having held sixty-two editions is the oldest and longest-running regional sporting tournament still active, which is also noted as the most prestigious and most popular tournaments in the world, and has had consistently high turnouts throughout the years,

This is an excellent clause. Beyond some possible small aesthetic changes, this is what every clause should look like. Good job on this one

Acknowledging Valentine Z’s 3rd place finish in the 2020 SecGen elections with Atlantian Oceania as the nations running mate behind the backing of the residents of AO,

This isn't commendable.

Celebrating AO’s success in Z-Day 7, finishing first in most survivors with no infected, with 3.81 trillion survivors,

This could be framed as commendable, but as stands it reads very boring and doesn't really make a case for it.

Proud of the number of nations commending while in AO, which entails such nations as Starblaydia, Audioslavia, Commerce Heights, Valanora, and Vilita and Turori showing the high level of achievement in AO,

Having commended nations isn't a case for a region's commendation.

---

To be clear, the information is there - I can tell, from the pure statistics of the proposal and my own personal knowledge and beliefs as to how the Security Council does/should work, that they have the ability, and you've done a decent job at giving that information straight up. What is largely missing is the formulation of these statistics into a case for why the region should be commended. I'd recommend continuing to work on this for a while, and don't be in a huge rush imo.

I'm also just taking at face value that all the raw information is correct - I haven't gone back to fact-check it.

Again, let me know if you want me to do my best rewriting this into a version that I think would make a better case for commendation. Good luck with the proposal!

[Equestrian States]

My own input piggy-backing on Morover's suggestions, with the obligatory caveat that I'm an expert in NSS not the SC:

The most elected World Cup Committee (WCC is the governing body of Nationstates World Cup) presidents are from Starblaydia (6), while residing in AO.

This need to be reframed to be more of AO's accomplishment, instead of Starblaydia's. Also, the explanation of what the WCC isn't needed.

As I mentioned earlier, this could easily be reframed to be a more AO-centric point by mentioning that 8 of the WCC's 15 presidents are/were AO residents (a list of which can be found in my earlier post), 16 of 27 presidential terms were served by AO residents, or that an AO nation has held the presidency for 42 of the 73 cycles thus far in which there has been a WCC President.

At the time of writing the most number of Nationstates World Cup Titles (37 titles) belong to Atlantian Oceania and the individual title record is shared between Starblaydia, Vilita, and Valanora (5 each), and counting.

This could seriously use some context, I'd consider mentioning however many titles second place has, in some way.

With Turori winning WC88, AO could now claim 38 titles, won by (I believe) 18 individual nations. The record is five titles by the three mentioned nations, followed by four nations currently tied with four titles each.

The most number of individual World Cup Hosted belongs to Valanora (7 World Cups) of AO.

This needs to be reframed to be AO's accomplishment; Valanora is already commended for this fact.

Valanora indeed holds the record with 7. However, second place in this particular category (with five WCs hosted each) is jointly-held by three AO nations: Cafundeu, Krytenia, and myself. Third place is held by four nations (with four each), including three AO nations: Audioslavia, Commerce Heights, and Vilita. By my count, a majority of the WCs held thus far have had at least one co-host which was/is in AO. Granted, this is also a category where attributing an exact number to AO is tricky, as not all WCs hosted in my count were necessarily hosted while the nation was a member of AO (for example, two of my five were hosted when I was still in the Pony Lands, not AO). Still, I think there's more than enough examples of AO's hosting pedigree to draw from. And that's not even mentioning any of the non-World Cup events which AO nations have hosted, of which there are likely a couple hundred or so.

Valanora currently holds the record for the most cups participated in: 54 qualification attempts, with 42 finals appearances.

Skimming their commendation, I don't see this mentioned explicitly - it still needs to be reframed to AO's perspective.

I'm not entirely sure how to reframe this one, but AO is frequently (if not typically) the most-represented region at the World Cup finals. I have no idea about how well that representation carries over to World Cup qualifying, however.

Praising AO’s numerous successful sporting leagues, including but not limited too: American football, baseball, motorsports, basketball, curling, ice hockey, and football,

This is horribly vague and unspecific; give details on each of these. It'll fill out the proposal nicely and help make a more compelling case for commendation.

You could easily blow past the character limit with the accomplishments of AO teams in club competitions. I might recommend focusing on AO teams' successes in the UICA/IFCF (soccer), HCL (ice hockey), and IUBC (basketball) competitions.

Applauding the success of the Atlantian Oceania Cup of Association Football (AOCAF), which having held sixty-two editions is the oldest and longest-running regional sporting tournament still active, which is also noted as the most prestigious and most popular tournaments in the world, and has had consistently high turnouts throughout the years,

This is an excellent clause. Beyond some possible small aesthetic changes, this is what every clause should look like. Good job on this one

A minor correction here would be that the AOCAF Cup has now had 63 completed editions, with the 64th about to begin.

[Atlantian Oceania]

This could seriously use some context, I'd consider mentioning however many titles second place has, in some way.

With Turori winning WC88, AO could now claim 38 titles, won by (I believe) 18 individual nations. The record is five titles by the three mentioned nations, followed by four nations currently tied with four titles each.

With a fresh review looks like it may actually be 39 titles not 38; by 19 individual nations.

The region with the second most titles (Presumed Rushmore, has approximately 10 total titles.

This needs to be reframed to be AO's accomplishment; Valanora is already commended for this fact.

Valanora indeed holds the record with 7. However, second place in this particular category (with five WCs hosted each) is jointly-held by three AO nations: Cafundeu, Krytenia, and myself. Third place is held by four nations (with four each), including three AO nations: Audioslavia, Commerce Heights, and Vilita. By my count, a majority of the WCs held thus far have had at least one co-host which was/is in AO. Granted, this is also a category where attributing an exact number to AO is tricky, as not all WCs hosted in my count were necessarily hosted while the nation was a member of AO (for example, two of my five were hosted when I was still in the Pony Lands, not AO). Still, I think there's more than enough examples of AO's hosting pedigree to draw from. And that's not even mentioning any of the non-World Cup events which AO nations have hosted, of which there are likely a couple hundred or so.

By rough count AO nations have hosted approximately 55 world cup finals. The second most by a single region is approximately 13-15.

"Over 50" and "Over Half of the World Cup Finals Ever Contested" would be accurate representations



Another interesting stat is that the World Cup Finals (Normally co hosted between two nations regardless of region) have been fully hosted within AO 34 times - as in both co-host nations were in AO not just the one required for it to be considered to have been hosted in a region.

Skimming their commendation, I don't see this mentioned explicitly - it still needs to be reframed to AO's perspective.

I'm not entirely sure how to reframe this one, but AO is frequently (if not typically) the most-represented region at the World Cup finals. I have no idea about how well that representation carries over to World Cup qualifying, however.

One way could be that the region of Atlantian Oceania has been represented in every World Cup Final since at least World Cup 15 (73 consecutive finals and counting).


Other stats could include that AO hosted a record 11 consecutive World Cup Finals and have won a record 8 consecutive Finals from 37-44 (The next highest region has won 3 consecutive).