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[ABANDONED] Repeal "Condemn Minineenee"

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[ABANDONED] Repeal "Condemn Minineenee"

Postby Cormactopia Prime » Fri Apr 23, 2021 2:07 pm

Repeal "Condemn Minineenee"
A resolution to repeal previously passed legislation.

Category: Repeal | Resolution: SC#348 | Proposed by: Cormactopia Prime





Description: WA Security Council Resolution #348: Condemn Minineenee shall be struck out and rendered null and void.

Argument: The Security Council:

Acknowledging the ill intent behind the government of Minineenee's conduct over the nation's long history;

Observing, however, that most of Minineenee's international endeavors have spectacularly failed regardless of intent;

Recalling that Minineenee's coup against the West Pacific was relatively brief compared to other such coups, even in the West Pacific itself, though its impact on the West Pacific led to future coups by other nations and general destabilization of democracy;

Noting that since the coups conducted by Minineenee and other nations, the West Pacific has built a governmental system and political culture that has allowed it to resist coups more easily, at times by incorporating rogue Delegates into its system and culture and restoring order by peaceful means, and to return to normalcy with admirable perseverance;

Questioning whether Minineenee can truly be considered the leading nation of the Empire given well known comments by a representative of the government of Biyah indicating that the Empire's modus operandi is to put forward governments with female leaders to serve as the Empire's figureheads, while the male leaders of Biyah, Dalimbar, and New Kervoskia led behind the scenes;

Considering that the aforementioned statements by the government of Biyah have other potential examples in the Empire's attempts at political domination of Osiris through manipulating the Delegacy of Lyanna Stark and the failed attempt at turning the Empire into a credible organization known as Sovereign Confederation under Astarial's leadership;

Recollecting that the coup conducted against The East Pacific was made possible by the political and cultural stagnation preceding it, and that the Empire coup had no lasting detrimental impact on The East Pacific, as the Empire's eventual defeat led to systematic reforms that made it easier for The East Pacific to weather future coups;

Asserting that the role Minineenee played in the Empire's ultimately failed attempts to subvert and conquer Osiris were minor compared to those of its allied nations, and further noting that despite having control of Osiris on multiple occasions the Empire repeatedly failed to consolidate power, upstaged by far longer lasting regime changes led by The Dourian Embassy, Detective Figs, Venico, and Tim Stark that have included the exile of Minineenee and other nations of the Empire from Osiris;

Insisting that the reliance of Minineenee's government on imperialist forces indicates those forces were the true power behind Minineenee's and the Empire's aggression, without which its endeavors would have failed even more quickly than they ultimately did;

Dismissing Minineenee's attempts to perpetrate coups against the Rejected Realms and Lazarus as trivial, mere footnotes in the history of those regions, with no long lasting detrimental impact on those regions or the world at large;

Concluding that Minineenee's conduct, while in many ways deplorable, has often been easily thwarted and has made no long-term detrimental impact on either the regions Minineenee's government has targeted or the broader world;

Recognizing that Minineenee's worldview is so reprehensible that its government likely considers condemnation by the Security Council a badge of honor, regarding it as encouragement to persist in being a nuisance to various regions and bothersome to the regions and nations that have seen constant success in thwarting Minineenee's and the Empire's failed attempts at conquest;

Hereby Repeals SC#348: Condemn Minineenee.
Last edited by Cormactopia Prime on Sat May 01, 2021 9:22 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Postby The Seeker of Power » Fri Apr 23, 2021 2:42 pm

Cormactopia Prime wrote:Questioning whether Minineenee can truly be considered the leader of the Empire given the organization's well known modus operandi of putting forward governments with female leaders to serve as figureheads while the male leaders behind the governments of Biyah, Dalimbar, and New Kervoskia coordinated the Empire's schemes behind the scenes;


Woah... I rarely ever comment in the SC... but did you went full sexist here, Cormac? The implication that females can only be figureheads? That only males can be the mastermind behind all those scenarios? That's how I'm reading it... I hope to be wrong... Even if this had a historical base and there were evidence, this is one of the most sexist lines I've ever read in a serious SC or for that matter WA related proposal...

I'm just asking, dude. It strikes me as odd.
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Postby HumanSanity » Fri Apr 23, 2021 2:48 pm

The Seeker of Power wrote:
Cormactopia Prime wrote:Questioning whether Minineenee can truly be considered the leader of the Empire given the organization's well known modus operandi of putting forward governments with female leaders to serve as figureheads while the male leaders behind the governments of Biyah, Dalimbar, and New Kervoskia coordinated the Empire's schemes behind the scenes;


Woah... I rarely ever comment in the SC... but did you went full sexist here, Cormac? The implication that females can only be figureheads? That only males can be the mastermind behind all those scenarios? That's how I'm reading it... I hope to be wrong... Even if this had a historical base and there were evidence, this is one of the most sexist lines I've ever read in a serious SC or for that matter WA related proposal...

I'm just asking, dude. It strikes me as odd.
I was beat to commenting on it because my brain was taking too long to process how blatant this was/is.
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Postby Cormactopia Prime » Fri Apr 23, 2021 2:51 pm

The Seeker of Power wrote:Woah... I rarely ever comment in the SC... but did you went full sexist here, Cormac? The implication that females can only be figureheads? That only males can be the mastermind behind all those scenarios? That's how I'm reading it... I hope to be wrong... Even if this had a historical base and there were evidence, this is one of the most sexist lines I've ever read in a serious SC or for that matter WA related proposal...

I'm just asking, dude. It strikes me as odd.

Biyah has spoken many times in the past of his preference for having women leading organizations rather than he, Dali, or NK acting as the leaders and leading spokespersons, because he regards women as more appealing to the general public, and yet he was often the one pulling the strings behind the scenes. I'm sure I'm not the only one left who's ever heard him say so, and others who have heard him say so can feel free to corroborate what I'm saying or not. It was, in my time, common knowledge. So no, I'm not being sexist, I'm just stating facts about the Empire's way of operating.

Has it never struck you as odd that the Empire's endeavors are consistently led by women even though those who can see behind the scenes are fully aware of the much greater impact Biyah, Dali, and NK are having on what is actually transpiring within the Empire's various projects?

Of course I don't believe women can only be figureheads, and that's a disingenuous smear to suggest I'm the one who thinks it just because I'm the one pointing out how the Empire has operated, to be frank. The issue is that Biyah believes it and, as a result, this is how the Empire has consistently operated for years.

I fully believe, as an example of the confidence I have in a woman's skills to play this game, that Xoriet is capable of a far better smear campaign to take down this repeal than trying to label me a sexist for telling the truth about the Empire's most well known tactics.
Last edited by Cormactopia Prime on Fri Apr 23, 2021 2:58 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby The Seeker of Power » Fri Apr 23, 2021 3:06 pm

Did you just doubled down on it?

No; I never found odd that women were often at the forefront of anything, as I do not think such is a thing to be surprised about.

Also, sadly, you tripled down on it pulling someone else, a woman, into this, like if she needed to be hiding behind someone to point out at a very distasteful attempt to hide sexism behind "someone else said it".

I was surprised that this came from YOU, whom I have had a long respect for despite regularly - almost always - being on opposite sides. But I guess I expected too much.

I'll leave you to it, C. Keep it classy?

I'll continue staying out of SC and WA forum discussions as I prefer anyway. Good luck.
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Postby Dilber » Fri Apr 23, 2021 3:12 pm

Strong disagree that the TWP coup did not have a lasting impact on TWP. It was the first step that really broke democracy in the region, with numerous people charged or leaving the region. It changed politics in the region at the time dramatically, and effectively broke the community at the time.

Source: Me, a person that was in the planning for the coup to spy on it, and worked to end it. It was a brief coup, but it directly led to the conditions that allowed for later coups.

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Postby Cormactopia Prime » Fri Apr 23, 2021 3:19 pm

The Seeker of Power wrote:<snip>

You are, to no one's surprise, deliberately twisting my words. I don't find it odd for women to be at the forefront of anything either, which is why during my more active time in NationStates I regularly advocated for more women in leadership roles within regions and organizations -- because I believed they should be there, prominent in gameplay and respected just the same as male players, and not because I thought it looked better to the public as Biyah did. I would like to think that has had some small impact on why Osiris has had so many female Delegates since the ushering in of the current Osiran government, but honestly it has much more to do with the contributions those women have made to the region. I'm nonetheless proud that Osiris has come so far from where it was at when the Empire was just trying to use women to advance Biyah's political agenda, and I am also proud of my small role in bringing Osiris to this point.

This is not even to mention Thalassia, but I digress.

This smear campaign to suggest I'm sexist because I'm merely pointing out the way the Empire has operated is low, even for my detractors. That this is how the Empire operates is not indicative of anything about women elsewhere in NationStates, gameplay or otherwise, but I am most certainly not going to say this isn't how the Empire operates when I have literally sat through multiple conversations in which Biyah said this is exactly how they operate. That the Empire engages in manipulative, ultimately sexist tactics doesn't mean someone pointing it out is sexist, it means simply that the Empire's tactics are sexist.

Dilber wrote:Strong disagree that the TWP coup did not have a lasting impact on TWP. It was the first step that really broke democracy in the region, with numerous people charged or leaving the region. It changed politics in the region at the time dramatically, and effectively broke the community at the time.

Source: Me, a person that was in the planning for the coup to spy on it, and worked to end it. It was a brief coup, but it directly led to the conditions that allowed for later coups.

Thank you for engaging with the actual proposal instead of a classless OOC smear campaign.

It was more my intent to say that the coup did not have as much of a detrimental effect on TWP as SC#348 made it out to have, given that TWP as it has evolved doesn't see the loss of forum democracy as detrimental, so with what you're saying in mind I will edit the proposal accordingly to make that clearer.
Last edited by Cormactopia Prime on Fri Apr 23, 2021 3:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Outer Sparta » Fri Apr 23, 2021 3:36 pm

Do you believe Minineenee is not condemnable or believe that the condemnation isn't sufficient? A quick read suggests the former, but I'm just clarifying.
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Postby Big Bad Badger » Fri Apr 23, 2021 3:38 pm

JFC go back to bed, man.
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Postby Sho » Fri Apr 23, 2021 3:56 pm

I’m not going to bother with a long drawn out response because I’d like to actually see more posts like Dilber’s that scrutinize and help fix up the IC substance of the repeal. Frankly, I don’t care for the result, buttttt I can’t help but find certain accusations here unpalatable. Speaking as a lady that Cormac helped build up to leadership (and is not and has never been treated like a figure head, thank you very much), I find it laughable that you’d immediately point fingers at him and call him sexist for calling out patterns he (and others, if we’re frank) have seen. Of course I can’t say I’m surprised- GP isn’t what it is without someone’s words being twisted and spat back.
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Postby Cormactopia Prime » Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:00 pm

Outer Sparta wrote:Do you believe Minineenee is not condemnable or believe that the condemnation isn't sufficient? A quick read suggests the former, but I'm just clarifying.

The former, coupled with the fact she no doubt regards condemnation as a badge of honor that only encourages her. Given that what she's done is quite underwhelming, especially compared to others whom the Security Council has declined to condemn, it doesn't seem appropriate to reward her in such a manner.

In regard to the claims I've made regarding Neenee's role in Empire, Osiris, etc., I've thus far found this and there's more likely to come:

[23:18] <+Biyah> you have to remember who set up Osiris
[23:18] <+Biyah> NK, me, Dali, etc

Perhaps Neenee is "etc"? Who knows, really? But if so she gets relegated to being "etc" and certainly not the leader of anything.

And in regard to the Dominion of the West Pacific, I've found this. Is there a compelling counterargument with similar evidence to refute what Biyah is saying with other members of Empire, including Neenee, agreeing with him? Because as it stands it seems like their account of it is on the side of my current language, and their coup of TWP didn't have much of an impact? They're not usually the type to downplay themselves, so I'd be interested to hear more from Dilber on exactly why their coup of TWP was actually more important than they themselves were making it out to be.

[01:25] <@Cormac> I know virtually nothing about the Dominion, someone will have to educate me at some point when it's not 1:30 a.m. and I'm not goofy from allergy meds. :P
[01:25] <+Biyah> Im pretty sure we're on Grub 3 or 4 now
[01:25] <+Neenee> The Dominion was made up of some pretty epic people.
[01:25] <+Biyah> it's a short story
[01:25] <+Avakael> which Dominion
[01:25] <+Neenee> If I do say so myself.
[01:25] <+Avakael> ah that one.
[01:25] <+Biyah> the Dominion of The West Pacific only lasted 24 hours
[01:25] <+Neenee> Should have kept it.
[01:25] <+Avakael> because I was a member of an actual "The Dominion"
[01:25] <+Avakael> and that was insane.
[01:26] <+Biyah> it wasnt a coup, it was a government change with all but 4 members of TWPs government involved
[01:26] * Neenee waves her cane from her NS rocking chair
[01:26] <+Biyah> but Dilber freaked out and got allies, spun it as a coup, and we decided we didnt want to go to war
[01:26] * Dali hands Nee some scotch
[01:26] <+Biyah> which is too bad as I lok back, because that's when TWP went to hell
[01:26] * Neenee thanks Dali
[01:26] <+Dali> Didn't help that we found out, Biyah
[01:26] <+Dali> :P
[01:26] <+Biyah> well, he told Xha Dam
[01:26] <+Dali> indeed
[01:26] <+Neenee> <+Biyah> which is too bad as I lok back, because that's when TWP went to hell <-- yup
[01:26] <+Biyah> that's exactly why we launched ... 3 weeks early
[01:26] <+Neenee> We should have kept it
[01:26] <+Neenee> No influence at the time
[01:26] <+Neenee> Could have held it forever
[01:26] <+Biyah> it'd hav ebeen easy
[01:26] <+Neenee> I didn't sleep much at the time, either
[01:26] <+Neenee> That'd have helped
[01:27] <+Biyah> me neither
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Postby Outer Sparta » Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:08 pm

The Seeker of Power wrote:Did you just doubled down on it?

No; I never found odd that women were often at the forefront of anything, as I do not think such is a thing to be surprised about.

Also, sadly, you tripled down on it pulling someone else, a woman, into this, like if she needed to be hiding behind someone to point out at a very distasteful attempt to hide sexism behind "someone else said it".

I was surprised that this came from YOU, whom I have had a long respect for despite regularly - almost always - being on opposite sides. But I guess I expected too much.

I'll leave you to it, C. Keep it classy?

I'll continue staying out of SC and WA forum discussions as I prefer anyway. Good luck.

Not sure why you prefer OOC-sniping instead of saying you disagree with the resolution or explain why you are against. If you're against, just say why. But keep the OOC-sniping of the author out of it.
Cormactopia Prime wrote:
Outer Sparta wrote:Do you believe Minineenee is not condemnable or believe that the condemnation isn't sufficient? A quick read suggests the former, but I'm just clarifying.

The former, coupled with the fact she no doubt regards condemnation as a badge of honor that only encourages her. Given that what she's done is quite underwhelming, especially compared to others whom the Security Council has declined to condemn, it doesn't seem appropriate to reward her in such a manner.

In regard to the claims I've made regarding Neenee's role in Empire, Osiris, etc., I've thus far found this and there's more likely to come:

[23:18] <+Biyah> you have to remember who set up Osiris
[23:18] <+Biyah> NK, me, Dali, etc

Perhaps Neenee is "etc"? Who knows, really? But if so she gets relegated to being "etc" and certainly not the leader of anything.

And in regard to the Dominion of the West Pacific, I've found this. Is there a compelling counterargument with similar evidence to refute what Biyah is saying with other members of Empire, including Neenee, agreeing with him? Because as it stands it seems like their account of it is on the side of my current language, and their coup of TWP didn't have much of an impact? They're not usually the type to downplay themselves, so I'd be interested to hear more from Dilber on exactly why their coup of TWP was actually more important than they themselves were making it out to be.

[01:25] <@Cormac> I know virtually nothing about the Dominion, someone will have to educate me at some point when it's not 1:30 a.m. and I'm not goofy from allergy meds. :P
[01:25] <+Biyah> Im pretty sure we're on Grub 3 or 4 now
[01:25] <+Neenee> The Dominion was made up of some pretty epic people.
[01:25] <+Biyah> it's a short story
[01:25] <+Avakael> which Dominion
[01:25] <+Neenee> If I do say so myself.
[01:25] <+Avakael> ah that one.
[01:25] <+Biyah> the Dominion of The West Pacific only lasted 24 hours
[01:25] <+Neenee> Should have kept it.
[01:25] <+Avakael> because I was a member of an actual "The Dominion"
[01:25] <+Avakael> and that was insane.
[01:26] <+Biyah> it wasnt a coup, it was a government change with all but 4 members of TWPs government involved
[01:26] * Neenee waves her cane from her NS rocking chair
[01:26] <+Biyah> but Dilber freaked out and got allies, spun it as a coup, and we decided we didnt want to go to war
[01:26] * Dali hands Nee some scotch
[01:26] <+Biyah> which is too bad as I lok back, because that's when TWP went to hell
[01:26] * Neenee thanks Dali
[01:26] <+Dali> Didn't help that we found out, Biyah
[01:26] <+Dali> :P
[01:26] <+Biyah> well, he told Xha Dam
[01:26] <+Dali> indeed
[01:26] <+Neenee> <+Biyah> which is too bad as I lok back, because that's when TWP went to hell <-- yup
[01:26] <+Biyah> that's exactly why we launched ... 3 weeks early
[01:26] <+Neenee> We should have kept it
[01:26] <+Neenee> No influence at the time
[01:26] <+Neenee> Could have held it forever
[01:26] <+Biyah> it'd hav ebeen easy
[01:26] <+Neenee> I didn't sleep much at the time, either
[01:26] <+Neenee> That'd have helped
[01:27] <+Biyah> me neither

I'm not a TWP member so I wouldn't know how impacted they were from the coup. Given there are a couple of TWP nations that posted, they seemed to be quite affected, though I wouldn't know for sure myself since I'm an outsider.
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Postby Quebecshire » Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:52 pm

Did Cormac just invent in-character sexism or was that already a thing?
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Postby Big Bad Badger » Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:53 pm

The forum died when I tried to edit my last post, so I will add this:

Outer Sparta wrote:Do you believe Minineenee is not condemnable or believe that the condemnation isn't sufficient? A quick read suggests the former, but I'm just clarifying.

Cormac has a beef with Neenee's bff, because he said nasty things about Cormac that were untrue and disgusting. Cormac is using those ooc actions to get erase their memory ic and to change the narrative about empire.
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Postby Dilber » Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:15 pm

Cormactopia Prime wrote:
And in regard to the Dominion of the West Pacific, I've found this. Is there a compelling counterargument with similar evidence to refute what Biyah is saying with other members of Empire, including Neenee, agreeing with him? Because as it stands it seems like their account of it is on the side of my current language, and their coup of TWP didn't have much of an impact? They're not usually the type to downplay themselves, so I'd be interested to hear more from Dilber on exactly why their coup of TWP was actually more important than they themselves were making it out to be.

[01:25] <@Cormac> I know virtually nothing about the Dominion, someone will have to educate me at some point when it's not 1:30 a.m. and I'm not goofy from allergy meds. :P
[01:25] <+Biyah> Im pretty sure we're on Grub 3 or 4 now
[01:25] <+Neenee> The Dominion was made up of some pretty epic people.
[01:25] <+Biyah> it's a short story
[01:25] <+Avakael> which Dominion
[01:25] <+Neenee> If I do say so myself.
[01:25] <+Avakael> ah that one.
[01:25] <+Biyah> the Dominion of The West Pacific only lasted 24 hours
[01:25] <+Neenee> Should have kept it.
[01:25] <+Avakael> because I was a member of an actual "The Dominion"
[01:25] <+Avakael> and that was insane.
[01:26] <+Biyah> it wasnt a coup, it was a government change with all but 4 members of TWPs government involved
[01:26] * Neenee waves her cane from her NS rocking chair
[01:26] <+Biyah> but Dilber freaked out and got allies, spun it as a coup, and we decided we didnt want to go to war
[01:26] * Dali hands Nee some scotch
[01:26] <+Biyah> which is too bad as I lok back, because that's when TWP went to hell
[01:26] * Neenee thanks Dali
[01:26] <+Dali> Didn't help that we found out, Biyah
[01:26] <+Dali> :P
[01:26] <+Biyah> well, he told Xha Dam
[01:26] <+Dali> indeed
[01:26] <+Neenee> <+Biyah> which is too bad as I lok back, because that's when TWP went to hell <-- yup
[01:26] <+Biyah> that's exactly why we launched ... 3 weeks early
[01:26] <+Neenee> We should have kept it
[01:26] <+Neenee> No influence at the time
[01:26] <+Neenee> Could have held it forever
[01:26] <+Biyah> it'd hav ebeen easy
[01:26] <+Neenee> I didn't sleep much at the time, either
[01:26] <+Neenee> That'd have helped
[01:27] <+Biyah> me neither


He was downplaying it specifically because of how much damage it did to the region while still wanting to be seen as the "good guy" in his home base. The Dominion was 100% a coup backed by the ADN, though I'd need to repair a broken hard drive to grab my contemporary logs at the time. The actual reason that led to it was PRP influence occuring in the West Pacific at the time, as Sir Paul had set up a branch of the tabloid tribune, and relations were becoming normal. It's directly responsible for me going over to the Pacific rather than another defender region at the time, as the ADN 100% backed it. The only reason it lasted for 24 hours was because of the mass backlash and people leaving the game. I took over as Prime Minister again post-coup, and left during the trials turning over power to TAO. There was another constitutional convention after that, but a number of leading democracy people in TWP left, including Berhampore and Lake Lanier, amongst others. You'll note in the logs that he calls it a "government change" and not a coup. It excluded 4 governmental members, and the government wasn't that big at the time. There was a mechanism in the second constitutional convention for a second one, and this skipped it.

Here is an excerpt from the memoirs of Hippo, a leading member of the Meritocracy and someone that was then elected to Chief Justice of TWP post-coup. He does have some things incorrect, like the ADN waiting to see, but that was more stuff that was hidden at the time which I specifically had access to. The result of the coup directly led to the conditions that gave rise to Eli and Westwind later, amongst others.

While things did appear to be livening up towards the end of my term, the most dramatic incident
barely affected the Meritocracy at all. It seemed that finally something was happening that would
give us the opportunity for a foreign policy. Without warning, the leaders of the West Pacific
declared martial law, abolished the constitution and moved to a new forum, establishing the West
Pacific Dominion. I do recognise why they did what they did, there had been a lapse in activity.
Their actions were wrong, but their reasons for doing what they did were noble.
One is only conciliatory after the event, though. At the time, the only concern was that the
constitution had been suspended and a new government set up without our permission. As
somebody obsessed with the law, and as a resident of the West Pacific, I was outraged. I was
perhaps one of the most outspoken critics of the new regime, speaking mainly from the point of
view of a lawyer, criticising the Dominion on the basis of the illegality of their actions rather than
anything else. Eli and I spoke a great deal during the period of the Dominion, and having moved
out of the region in protest, I soon moved back to endorse him and play a more active role in
attacking the regime.
The Dominion only lasted around 24 hours, before the idea was abandoned and we returned to
our everyday forums and our ordinary constitutional government. Halmont, Biyah and Minineenee
resigned, the latter two moving to Nasicournia temporarily. Whereas the domestic controversy
centred on the abandonment of constitutional process, the international controversy seemed
entirely centred upon the role of the ADN in proceedings, which was rather odd to all of us
because the ADN had basically just waited to see whether the Dominion had the support of the
region or not.

23

The brevity of the Dominion’s existence meant that there was no opportunity for the Meritocracy
to adopt a policy towards the region. Like the ADN, we decided to watch and wait. As regent and
hence leader of the resistance, Eli, I knew, was gathering endorsements to try to take the region
from Minineenee, and we both thought that he would be ejected, giving me the opportunity to
formally denounce the Dominion on behalf of the Meritocracy. Of course, he was not ejected, and
the Dominion disbanded.
Those who had been members of the Dominion’s leadership, the Core, were of course subject to
a great deal of recrimination in the first few days after its disbandment. Many resigned, and new
elections were held for Prime Minister and Chief Justice. Dilber won the former, I the latter. I had
never expected to attain that coveted position as a result of Halmont being forced out of his job,
and it rather hurt me to do so. However, I did seize upon the opportunity.
Our next task was to elect a new Delegate to replace Minineenee. This was the most difficult
task, because the Dominion’s coup d’etat had disrupted our usual constitutional processes. Of
course, we had just resumed control of the region as the defenders of the constitution, and thus
we were rather beholden to following it. As Chief Justice, I was asked for advice on the
constitutionality of various options, and eventually it was resolved that the election could be held
when we were ready to hold it, and that despite his recent leadership, Eli was ineligible.


Here is from the old NSwiki:

http://archive.nswiki.org/index.php?tit ... st_Pacific

cause a civil war.
The Freedom Loving Republic of Wickedly Evil People - Declared Regent only weeks before he replaced Minineenee after she stepped down after the abortive West Pacific Dominion was dissolved. Uncertain security conditions delayed Delegate vote (to have taken place during the Coup); a Council resolution endorsed the delay. Wickedly Evil People, a.k.a. Eli, declaired TWP efforts to rebuild after The West Pacific Dominion futile and decided to create his own governemnt that he and he alone could decide what the governemnt would consist of. This divided TWP as before with WPD and eventually Shasoria, appointed leader of the Government in Exile, and Eli came to an understanding uniting TWP.


As you can see, the direct result of the coup was the end of democracy in TWP. It had a much larger impact on the region than Biyah would claim in those logs, because it didn't hit the goal. If the old S8 forums still existed, there were plenty of sources.

In fact, for all that Biyah later claimed that it was entirely internal, here is one of the earliest logs of it, which were Biyah and Neenee alone:

Image

Here is a contemporary email discussing immediate damage to the intel and military side:

Image
Last edited by Dilber on Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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The Seeker of Power
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Postby The Seeker of Power » Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:35 pm

Outer Sparta wrote:Not sure why you prefer OOC-sniping instead of saying you disagree with the resolution or explain why you are against. If you're against, just say why. But keep the OOC-sniping of the author out of it.

Because I'm neither. Anyone who knew 0.01% of me knows well that I consider condemnatiosn and commendations to be little more than vanity badges for which I have no interest. I didn't OOC snipped anyone either - tho this is the usual reply lately, falsely accuse someone of OOC attacks, OOCly. The line reads to me as sexist, which is why I asked for clarification. Precisely cuz it looked weird coming from Cormac. But instead of clarification, I got some sort of weird defensive position which I didn't expected, unfounded accusations, and passing the responsibility to Biyah.

Want to make it more SCly? I would love that line rewritten in a way that actually accusses sexism as used by Biyah, which is apparently the point being attempted.

I'm clearly not the only one who read that tone, I'm just the one who pointed out. Now I have proposed it is rewritten to better explain its meaning. But if you want to go on with empty banter, I don't have time for it.

And yes, I realize I'm not proposing an alternative writing to it, cuz I actually suck at this legalese writing. Cormac is much better than I am, and he surely can make it better. So, what now?
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Postby The Python » Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:40 pm

uh wtf okay
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Cormactopia Prime
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Postby Cormactopia Prime » Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:06 pm

Dilber wrote:<snip>

It doesn't take much to convince me that Biyah was being deceptive and distorting events to portray the image he wanted portrayed of his coup of TWP, so based on what you've provided I've come to the conclusion it was likely more serious than he portrayed it. I've edited the draft and I think the language now reflects a better picture of the coup's impact -- please feel free to let me know if you still think the language is problematic, because I'm willing to work together on getting the right balance. I don't want to either downplay or overstate Neenee's gameplay conduct over the years but I'm convinced her impact hasn't been significant enough to warrant condemnation. I'm certainly willing to concede she had the worst impact on TWP, though, which is ironic given how much bellyaching she's done over the years about how much she hates TWP's current system of government even though she was the partial cause of it coming into being.

The Seeker of Power wrote:<snip>

Given the way you approached this, I find it difficult to believe you were operating in good faith, but I've nonetheless made edits to the clauses in question to underscore that these concerns about who was actually in charge of the Empire's endeavors came from Biyah's own comments.
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Postby Outer Sparta » Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:12 pm

The Seeker of Power wrote:
Outer Sparta wrote:Not sure why you prefer OOC-sniping instead of saying you disagree with the resolution or explain why you are against. If you're against, just say why. But keep the OOC-sniping of the author out of it.

Because I'm neither. Anyone who knew 0.01% of me knows well that I consider condemnatiosn and commendations to be little more than vanity badges for which I have no interest. I didn't OOC snipped anyone either - tho this is the usual reply lately, falsely accuse someone of OOC attacks, OOCly. The line reads to me as sexist, which is why I asked for clarification. Precisely cuz it looked weird coming from Cormac. But instead of clarification, I got some sort of weird defensive position which I didn't expected, unfounded accusations, and passing the responsibility to Biyah.

Want to make it more SCly? I would love that line rewritten in a way that actually accusses sexism as used by Biyah, which is apparently the point being attempted.

I'm clearly not the only one who read that tone, I'm just the one who pointed out. Now I have proposed it is rewritten to better explain its meaning. But if you want to go on with empty banter, I don't have time for it.

And yes, I realize I'm not proposing an alternative writing to it, cuz I actually suck at this legalese writing. Cormac is much better than I am, and he surely can make it better. So, what now?

If you want to write one, then do so. Otherwise, you're just inserting snippets of OOC attacks against the author without even offering critique to the proposal.

If I also may ask, did you participate in any of the events mentioned in the draft as part of the NPO?
Last edited by Outer Sparta on Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The Seeker of Power » Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:28 pm

Outer Sparta wrote:If I also may ask, did you participate in any of the events mentioned in the draft as part of the NPO?

Nope, and the whole Empire can confirm it. Neenee, Biyah, the Empire, Dali as a whole and me never worked together, neither during my tenures in the NPO nor while I played in other regions. This includes my tenure as both Delegate and Guardian of TWP, where I didn't include any member of the Empire in my team.
Last edited by The Seeker of Power on Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bormiar » Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:37 pm

I have a few opinions, speaking as an outsider with no interest in this debate nor NSGP, but a moderate amount of lasting interest in the SC.

It doesn't sound to me like Cormac was implying females make bad conspirators. It sounds like he's saying that Biyah, Dalimbar, and NK were simply using Neenee as a spokesperson and figurehead. That's not gendered. So, I would suggest to Cormac that he remove the detail regarding gender and simply say that Neenee was likely a figurehead, as a) people seem to be interpreting his words differently from how he is elucidating in this thread; and b) it's against SC rules to call a nation a player, so he's not allowed to say Neenee's a female regardless (though there are, of course, ways around that if he'd like to keep his current wording).

Also, I feel as though this thread is mainly discussing Cormac's weaker argument that he should perhaps drop. Even if it's not true, Dilber et al. have convinced me Neenee was important to the Dominion and ultimately to TWP, speaking as someone with no prior opinion on the matter. Cormac's clause on the matter actually seems to agree with them, stating, "its impact on the West Pacific led to future coups by other nations and general destabilization of democracy". He makes a similar contradiction here: "the Empire's eventual defeat led to systematic reforms that made it easier for The East Pacific to weather future coups". I would get those two errors fixed, and either lighten the clause on the Dominion or scrap it entirely. That way you can shift attention to stronger arguments, which I'm surprised you haven't done in this thread already.

As for stronger arguments, I think that you're a little all over the place here, and you need to make up a sort of thesis on what makes Neenee undeserving of this badge. Saying that Neenee treats this as a badge of honor is a very weak argument and should be scrapped entirely, as it goes against SC precedent and conventional opinion on condemnations, which are seen as badges of honor by most people. Also, I don't think the "questioning" clause should be put so high in the proposal, as it could be misconstrued as a core argument, despite being very speculative. I'd move it down to the bottom as a sort of "on top of all this damning evidence I've just provided, there's question as to whether Neenee even did anything at all".

I believe that your core argument is that the Empire's coups are just bloated legends which are, in actuality, not very impressive. The explicit argument is what you've already made in your draft. But a looming subset of this argument, which probably should remain implicit, is that these tall tales by the old guard of NationStates were far easier to execute at the time, and aren't at all comparable to modern coups, due to better security, greater stability, active delegates, time dilation, and the very old guard we're handing out badges to. Recent coups have been weak and flimsy, and yet they are organized by experienced players. The most parsimonious explanation for this inconsistency is that old coups like Neenee's were simply easier, so the argument is consistent with contemporary evidence. The argument also alludes to the quiet, hostile sentiment some younger players have to the old guard of NS (particularly in TWP), that they're lazy, corrupt power hoarders.

If this is your argument, or you simply like it, I'd make it very clear in the draft. In other words, most, if not all clauses, should tie back to it in some way, and there should be a pseudo-thesis (or introduction such as an anecdote) and pseudo-conclusion hammering it home. That's the structure of essays, and it's the structure of the better drafts in the last one or two years. It's no wonder why that is, considering it's so much more persuasive than the "laundry list" of reasons we so often bash.

If you want to implement my ideas and have any questions on what I mean, or if you otherwise care about my opinion and would like me to respond in this thread, please TG me, Cormac.

Also, please note that I'm not arguing one way or the other, and I would not like to get dragged into your petty arguments. I'm simply trying to summarize Cormac's ideas into a singular argument and point out flaws in his draft.
Last edited by Bormiar on Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Outer Sparta » Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:55 pm

Bormiar wrote:
I have a few opinions, speaking as an outsider with no interest in this debate nor NSGP, but a moderate amount of lasting interest in the SC.

It doesn't sound to me like Cormac was implying females make bad conspirators. It sounds like he's saying that Biyah, Dalimbar, and NK were simply using Neenee as a spokesperson and figurehead. That's not gendered. So, I would suggest to Cormac that he remove the detail regarding gender and simply say that Neenee was likely a figurehead, as a) people seem to be interpreting his words differently from how he is elucidating in this thread; and b) it's against SC rules to call a nation a player, so he's not allowed to say Neenee's a female regardless (though there are, of course, ways around that if he'd like to keep his current wording).

Also, I feel as though this thread is mainly discussing Cormac's weaker argument that he should perhaps drop. Even if it's not true, Dilber et al. have convinced me Neenee was important to the Dominion and ultimately to TWP, speaking as someone with no prior opinion on the matter. Cormac's clause on the matter actually seems to agree with them, stating, "its impact on the West Pacific led to future coups by other nations and general destabilization of democracy". He makes a similar contradiction here: "the Empire's eventual defeat led to systematic reforms that made it easier for The East Pacific to weather future coups". I would get those two errors fixed, and either lighten the clause on the Dominion or scrap it entirely. That way you can shift attention to stronger arguments, which I'm surprised you haven't done in this thread already.

As for stronger arguments, I think that you're a little all over the place here, and you need to make up a sort of thesis on what makes Neenee undeserving of this badge. Saying that Neenee treats this as a badge of honor is a very weak argument and should be scrapped entirely, as it goes against SC precedent and conventional opinion on condemnations, which are seen as badges of honor by most people. Also, I don't think the "questioning" clause should be put so high in the proposal, as it could be misconstrued as a core argument, despite being very speculative. I'd move it down to the bottom as a sort of "on top of all this damning evidence I've just provided, there's question as to whether Neenee even did anything at all".

I believe that your core argument is that the Empire's coups are just bloated legends which are, in actuality, not very impressive. The explicit argument is what you've already made in your draft. But a looming subset of this argument, which probably should remain implicit, is that these tall tales by the old guard of NationStates were far easier to execute at the time, and aren't at all comparable to modern coups, due to better security, greater stability, active delegates, time dilation, and the very old guard we're handing out badges to. Recent coups have been weak and flimsy, and yet they are organized by experienced players. The most parsimonious explanation for this inconsistency is that old coups like Neenee's were simply easier, so the argument is consistent with contemporary evidence. The argument also alludes to the quiet, hostile sentiment some younger players have to the old guard of NS (particularly in TWP), that they're lazy, corrupt power hoarders.

If this is your argument, or you simply like it, I'd make it very clear in the draft. In other words, most, if not all clauses, should tie back to it in some way, and there should be a pseudo-thesis (or introduction such as an anecdote) and pseudo-conclusion hammering it home. That's the structure of essays, and it's the structure of the better drafts in the last one or two years. It's no wonder why that is, considering it's so much more persuasive than the "laundry list" of reasons we so often bash.

If you want to implement my ideas and have any questions on what I mean, or if you otherwise care about my opinion and would like me to respond in this thread, please TG me, Cormac.

Also, please note that I'm not arguing one way or the other, and I would not like to get dragged into your petty arguments. I'm simply trying to summarize Cormac's ideas into a singular argument and point out flaws in his draft.

To me, as an outsider, I don't necessarily think the Minineenee condemnation should be repealed, but I will be open to hearing if their condemnation isn't all that's cracked to be.
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A Bloodred Moon
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Postby A Bloodred Moon » Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:38 am

Cormactopia Prime wrote:Recalling that Minineenee's coup against the West Pacific was relatively brief compared to other such coups, even in the West Pacific itself, though its impact on the West Pacific led to future coups by other nations and general destabilization of democracy;

I believe that impact is entirely the reason why it should be considered condemnable, but I will leave arguing about that to people more familiar with the matter.

Noting that since the coups conducted by Minineenee and other nations, the West Pacific has built a governmental system and political culture that has allowed it to resist coups more easily, at times by incorporating rogue Delegates into its system and culture and restoring order by peaceful means, and to return to normalcy with admirable perseverance;

I'm not sure how this is relevant, being honest. Is this to indicate that Minineenee's actions had no long-term effect? It seems a little odd to compare the stability of a Feeder today (where the game is horrendously broken in their favour and they might as well be foundered when it comes to security) to a coup from 2005, however.

Questioning whether Minineenee can truly be considered the leading nation of the Empire given well known comments by a representative of the government of Biyah indicating that the Empire's modus operandi is to put forward governments with female leaders to serve as the Empire's figureheads, while the male leaders of Biyah, Dalimbar, and New Kervoskia led behind the scenes;

I strongly suggest you reword this to avoid misunderstandings, such as shown earlier on in the thread. I am not entirely sure I believe this claim with regards to the Empire of the East Pacific, but especially for the uninformed (the majority of voters) the way this clause is worded may lead to confusion.

Considering that the aforementioned statements by the government of Biyah have other potential examples in the Empire's attempts at political domination of Osiris through manipulating the Delegacy of Lyanna Stark and the failed attempt at turning the Empire into a credible organization known as Sovereign Confederation under Astarial's leadership;

I don't know if either Earth or Astarial were ever considered members of the Empire in the same way Neenee was. Neenee, after all, did lead a coup, and even if we do accept that most of the planning was handled by others (which I have not seen evidence I deem to be conclusive of) she still played an important role in it. She was not exactly a manipulated innocent when overthrowing the East, after all.

Recollecting that the coup conducted against The East Pacific was made possible by the political and cultural stagnation preceding it, and that the Empire coup had no lasting detrimental impact on The East Pacific, as the Empire's eventual defeat led to systematic reforms that made it easier for The East Pacific to weather future coups;

I don't believe the aim was to hold the region, but even aside from that, I believe improved security of a region's government is the result of all coups.

Asserting that the role Minineenee played in the Empire's ultimately failed attempts to subvert and conquer Osiris were minor compared to those of its allied nations, and further noting that despite having control of Osiris on multiple occasions the Empire repeatedly failed to consolidate power, upstaged by far longer lasting regime changes led by The Dourian Embassy, Detective Figs, Venico, and Tim Stark that have included the exile of Minineenee and other nations of the Empire from Osiris;

I thought the purpose of Venico's coup was to wrestle control of Osiris from the Empire? That is, at the least, what I could understand from the statement on the matter.

Insisting that the reliance of Minineenee's government on imperialist forces indicates those forces were the true power behind Minineenee's and the Empire's aggression, without which its endeavors would have failed even more quickly than they ultimately did;

I'm not sure I buy this. While such forces may have played a role, it would be unfair not to credit the individuals leading such actions, reaching out to supporting forces, placing themselves in a position to seize the delegacy, etc.

Recognizing that Minineenee's worldview is so reprehensible that its government likely considers condemnation by the Security Council a badge of honor, regarding it as encouragement to persist in being a nuisance to various regions and bothersome to the regions and nations that have seen constant success in thwarting Minineenee's and the Empire's failed attempts at conquest;

This is an old defender argument reused time and time again to justify their petty crusades against anything acknowledging effort put in by raiders or, in this case, coupers. Others may be better suited to argue against this - suffice to say, I am opposed to this clause being included at all.
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Jedinsto
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Postby Jedinsto » Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:55 am

As stated above, you should probably reword the "questioning" clause that's drawn sexism accusations, there will be plenty of opponents to this that use that as an argument against you, which I'm sure would convince quite a few unsure voters. Also, other posters should probably not ignore what Sho said.
Sho wrote:I’m not going to bother with a long drawn out response because I’d like to actually see more posts like Dilber’s that scrutinize and help fix up the IC substance of the repeal. Frankly, I don’t care for the result, buttttt I can’t help but find certain accusations here unpalatable. Speaking as a lady that Cormac helped build up to leadership (and is not and has never been treated like a figure head, thank you very much), I find it laughable that you’d immediately point fingers at him and call him sexist for calling out patterns he (and others, if we’re frank) have seen. Of course I can’t say I’m surprised- GP isn’t what it is without someone’s words being twisted and spat back.

Emphasis mine. I can confirm everything in the bold is true.
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Postby Nationific » Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:41 am

I'm truly sorry for continuing this pointless discussion about sexism, but what the hell y'all, did you even read what Cormac wrote?
You guys remind me of the media, spinning things wildly out of context. Smh.
I'm really disappointed at so many NS'ers arguing over a paragraph stating goddamn facts, bickering like a bunch of kids, calling it sexist. Get a life, people.

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