[Abandoned] Repeal: Liberate Kaiserreich

[Solamerazos]

Against.

Even if kaiserreich has 'changed', it has only been due to public pressure.

Despite all that can be said about supposed changes in the region, at the time of this liberation, Scansinia (the founder of kaiserreich), was completely complicit and had no issue with allowing nazis and fascists to flourish in the region and hold positions in the government, in having a swastika as the forum banner, etc. Without the international outcry, kaiserreich as a whole, and the founder/regions attitudes towards fascism and nazism, would not have changed. They don't deserve to have the liberation reapeled.

As someone from KAISERREICH,I saw the forum and its doesn't have an swastiska but their coat of arms!And I firmly against nazism/fascism!

[Apatosaurus]

Sure, but liberations are almost always temporary measures. When they have accomplished their tasks, they are generally removed. It would not be reasonable for the Security Council to maintain an impediment to the security of a region for characteristics that no longer apply to it, and have not for some time.

I have nothing to say about whether that applies to Kaiserreich. I will reiterate that I don't really think these liberations do the slightest thing, but then, I'm not sure it's worth the effort of repealing it either in that case.

I’m here to say that it does in fact, still apply to Kaiserreich. Their behavior on Discord is the same. Their fascination with a certain unnamed period in history is the same.

Bold take coming from you of all people. I'm happy to take Xoriet's word here, but not yours.

[Lenlyvit]

Well, Xor’s word is good enough for me. Keep the Liberation - it’s still a form of pressure to keep their bad behaviour off NS.

Against.

Xor's word is good enough for me too. It's dropped.

[Tinhampton]

Please mark your [ABANDONED] drafts accordingly

[We Are Not the NSA]

While I'm aware that the conversation regarding this proposal is over, I wanted to add a comment based on relevant personal experience that does not appear to have been acknowledged in detail.

Roughly 5–6 years ago I had a (publicly known) puppet embedded within Kaiserreich for well over a year and, if my memory is correct, for a period of time served as the ambassador from DEN to Kaiserreich. While the exact degree to which said position was official and the exact timeline of my interactions with the region are a bit fuzzy, I do remember that this was prior to the point in time when Antifa began taking Kaiserreich seriously as a fascist region. I know this because as a strong anti-fascist myself I wouldn’t have been willing to associate with the region had it had the reputation it would later acquire.

While I wasn't active in their community as a member, I did my fair share of lurking in their rmb and forums. My impression at the time was that a large portion of the region wasn’t actually made up of fascists but rather players of far less radical right-leaning political ideologies. However, I also couldn’t help but notice that there was a larger than normal proportion of individuals sympathetic to or outright supportive of fascist ideas joining this region. I would later come to experience a similar phenomenon during my time in Hydra Command, in which fascist/nazi/what we would now call alt-right players (especially those newer to the game) will gravitate towards large/active regions that they perceive to have fascist-adjacent themes regardless of the regions’ actual political ideologies (my personal theory is that these individuals are so used to using codes and dog whistles that they misinterpret coincidental choices in region theming as signs that a region is run by neo-nazis; e.g. Hydra’s comic book inspiration and Kaiserreich’s use of Germanic imagery).

Whereas Hydra would later need to implement a semi-official zero-tolerance policy across all of its communications platforms to combat this trend, from what I saw at the time there was no similar effort to address the issue in Kaiserreich. As such, I had always considered Kaiserreich to be a region at serious risk of radicalization and predicted the region’s eventual gravitation towards an outright fascist identity well in advance of it actually occurring.

While everything I’ve said thus far is based on severely outdated experiences and thus should be taken with a grain of salt, the overall point that I’m trying to make is that even with its outright fascist elements purged the region is still in danger of continuing to maintain a regional climate amenable to the sorts of rhetoric that over time foster fascist sympathies. We’ve already seen what the situation in this region can come to under these circumstances. While I understand that the proposal has already been abandoned, I’d still like to voice that my primary criticisms of the draft are that it fails to adequately provide evidence (whether in the form of policies, treaties, initiatives, specific events, etc.) that the region has actually succeeded in removing its fascist influences or that the region has implemented plans to protect itself against the future encroachment of similar influences.

While I agree with Lenlyvit’s concern that we run the risk of “trying to hold kreich up to a standard which they cannot achieve, and probably never will”, a demonstration of these two basic measures would be the first step to achieving this standard. That said, these efforts would all be for naught if Kaiserreich’s tolerance of the harmful ideas that I observed back in the day and now Xoriet has observed since continue unaddressed.

[Solamerazos]

While I'm aware that the conversation regarding this proposal is over, I wanted to add a comment based on relevant personal experience that does not appear to have been acknowledged in detail.

Roughly 5–6 years ago I had a (publicly known) puppet embedded within Kaiserreich for well over a year and, if my memory is correct, for a period of time served as the ambassador from DEN to Kaiserreich. While the exact degree to which said position was official and the exact timeline of my interactions with the region are a bit fuzzy, I do remember that this was prior to the point in time when Antifa began taking Kaiserreich seriously as a fascist region. I know this because as a strong anti-fascist myself I wouldn’t have been willing to associate with the region had it had the reputation it would later acquire.

While I wasn't active in their community as a member, I did my fair share of lurking in their rmb and forums. My impression at the time was that a large portion of the region wasn’t actually made up of fascists but rather players of far less radical right-leaning political ideologies. However, I also couldn’t help but notice that there was a larger than normal proportion of individuals sympathetic to or outright supportive of fascist ideas joining this region. I would later come to experience a similar phenomenon during my time in Hydra Command, in which fascist/nazi/what we would now call alt-right players (especially those newer to the game) will gravitate towards large/active regions that they perceive to have fascist-adjacent themes regardless of the regions’ actual political ideologies (my personal theory is that these individuals are so used to using codes and dog whistles that they misinterpret coincidental choices in region theming as signs that a region is run by neo-nazis; e.g. Hydra’s comic book inspiration and Kaiserreich’s use of Germanic imagery).

Whereas Hydra would later need to implement a semi-official zero-tolerance policy across all of its communications platforms to combat this trend, from what I saw at the time there was no similar effort to address the issue in Kaiserreich. As such, I had always considered Kaiserreich to be a region at serious risk of radicalization and predicted the region’s eventual gravitation towards an outright fascist identity well in advance of it actually occurring.

While everything I’ve said thus far is based on severely outdated experiences and thus should be taken with a grain of salt, the overall point that I’m trying to make is that even with its outright fascist elements purged the region is still in danger of continuing to maintain a regional climate amenable to the sorts of rhetoric that over time foster fascist sympathies. We’ve already seen what the situation in this region can come to under these circumstances. While I understand that the proposal has already been abandoned, I’d still like to voice that my primary criticisms of the draft are that it fails to adequately provide evidence (whether in the form of policies, treaties, initiatives, specific events, etc.) that the region has actually succeeded in removing its fascist influences or that the region has implemented plans to protect itself against the future encroachment of similar influences.

While I agree with Lenlyvit’s concern that we run the risk of “trying to hold kreich up to a standard which they cannot achieve, and probably never will”, a demonstration of these two basic measures would be the first step to achieving this standard. That said, these efforts would all be for naught if Kaiserreich’s tolerance of the harmful ideas that I observed back in the day and now Xoriet has observed since continue unaddressed.

I think its over,now there only good player,I think.

[Alistia]

Against.

Even if kaiserreich has 'changed', it has only been due to public pressure.

Despite all that can be said about supposed changes in the region, at the time of this liberation, Scansinia (the founder of kaiserreich), was completely complicit and had no issue with allowing nazis and fascists to flourish in the region and hold positions in the government, in having a swastika as the forum banner, etc. Without the international outcry, kaiserreich as a whole, and the founder/regions attitudes towards fascism and nazism, would not have changed. They don't deserve to have the liberation reapeled.

As someone from KAISERREICH,I saw the forum and its doesn't have an swastiska but their coat of arms!And I firmly against nazism/fascism!

*At/near the time of this liberation* it did have a swastika as the forum banner.
It was an eagle with the flag of nazi germany in the center.

[Solamerazos]

As someone from KAISERREICH,I saw the forum and its doesn't have an swastiska but their coat of arms!And I firmly against nazism/fascism!

*At/near the time of this liberation* it did have a swastika as the forum banner.
It was an eagle with the flag of nazi germany in the center.

For the forum,I though you mean the forum thread, strangely there no forum link at their WFE.

[New Hansa]

*At/near the time of this liberation* it did have a swastika as the forum banner.
It was an eagle with the flag of nazi germany in the center.

For the forum,I though you mean the forum thread, strangely there no forum link at their WFE.

We do have a forum link on the WFE also there is no point in trying to argue with people who's mind's were made up a long time ago.

[Xoriet]

For the forum,I though you mean the forum thread, strangely there no forum link at their WFE.

We do have a forum link on the WFE also there is no point in trying to argue with people who's mind's were made up a long time ago.

Your nation wasn't even founded when we went through your regional Discord and found all the content. On both occasions.

[New Hansa]

We do have a forum link on the WFE also there is no point in trying to argue with people who's mind's were made up a long time ago.

Your nation wasn't even founded when we went through your regional Discord and found all the content. On both occasions.

You know what I'm not in the mood to argue today so how about we just don't. Does that sound good?

[Scheinenland]

Your nation wasn't even founded when we went through your regional Discord and found all the content. On both occasions.

You know what I'm not in the mood to argue today so how about we just don't. Does that sound good?

I'm not going to make the Montealbans a scapegoat entirely because there certainly were simply problematic folks in KR when this first came up, but it's certainly a lot better since we got rid of them way back when. It's not really productive at this point to try to pander or virtue signal on behalf of the gov't of KR. For the last year and a half with the exclusion of a couple months, I've been slowly trying to purge the problematic elements from the region. This started when myself and a small group in KR's gov't committed to ridding KR of toxicity around a year ago. Since then we've certainly come a long way but we still have much to do. I do want to say to Lenlyvit that I appreciate how you've approached KR as a group that can be changed rather than one that is locked into it's very troubled past in perpetuity. There are many of us in KR that are very frustrated about our past and actually, seriously, are pushing for change.

[Xoriet]

You know what I'm not in the mood to argue today so how about we just don't. Does that sound good?

I'm not going to make the Montealbans a scapegoat entirely because there certainly were simply problematic folks in KR when this first came up, but it's certainly a lot better since we got rid of them way back when. It's not really productive at this point to try to pander or virtue signal on behalf of the gov't of KR. For the last year and a half with the exclusion of a couple months, I've been slowly trying to purge the problematic elements from the region. This started when myself and a small group in KR's gov't committed to ridding KR of toxicity around a year ago. Since then we've certainly come a long way but we still have much to do. I do want to say to Lenlyvit that I appreciate how you've approached KR as a group that can be changed rather than one that is locked into it's very troubled past in perpetuity. There are many of us in KR that are very frustrated about our past and actually, seriously, are pushing for change.

You guys had three years of claiming you changed between 2018 and 2021. I go into your Discord three years after I saw the 2018 content on a screenshare call - and lo and behold, it's as bad as it was in 2018, just in different ways. It's only been a year since the last reveal and you think that it's unfair that you're still considered problematic for something that recent? If you're sincere you'll keep working on it until KR is actually clean rather than just claimed to be so. You've professed your innocence when it comes to problematic content two times now and been proven wrong both times. Why on earth do you think people will be quick to believe you this time?

If you want a chance to change, actually prove it instead of saying it and then having it exposed to the world that you've allowed problematic behaviors to flourish since the last time you proclaimed change was coming. The Montealbans you guys adored were certainly a core issue as to the volume of content, but one of them was nobility in KR and they were all clearly welcome there. You might want to start with reforming your founder, who is a root of the problem. A founder should be held accountable for the behavior of their members if that behavior goes unchecked and ignored. I have yet to see Scansinia admit a moment of culpability for enabling years and years of this. He's too busy trying to redirect everyone's attention to his political enemies to bother working on KR's image himself.

[Professor Albus Dumbledore]

I'm not going to make the Montealbans a scapegoat entirely because there certainly were simply problematic folks in KR when this first came up, but it's certainly a lot better since we got rid of them way back when. It's not really productive at this point to try to pander or virtue signal on behalf of the gov't of KR. For the last year and a half with the exclusion of a couple months, I've been slowly trying to purge the problematic elements from the region. This started when myself and a small group in KR's gov't committed to ridding KR of toxicity around a year ago. Since then we've certainly come a long way but we still have much to do. I do want to say to Lenlyvit that I appreciate how you've approached KR as a group that can be changed rather than one that is locked into it's very troubled past in perpetuity. There are many of us in KR that are very frustrated about our past and actually, seriously, are pushing for change.

You guys had three years of claiming you changed between 2018 and 2021. I go into your Discord three years after the last time - and lo and behold, it's as bad as it was in 2018, just in different ways. It's only been a year and you think that it's unfair that you're still considered problematic for something that recent? If you're sincere you'll keep working on it until KR is actually clean rather than just claimed to be so. You've claimed you're innocent of problematic content two times now and been proven wrong both times. Why on earth do you think people will be quick to believe you this time? If you want a chance to change, actually prove it instead of saying it and then having it exposed to the world that you've allowed problematic behaviors to flourish since the last time you proclaimed change was coming. You might want to start with reforming your founder, who is a root of the problem. A founder should be held accountable for the behavior of their members if that behavior goes unchecked and ignored. I have yet to see Scansinia admit a moment of culpability for enabling years and years of this.

bruh y were u checking their discord in da 1st place huh. y didnt u just keep out of KR's business. dis region doesnt concern u so u shouldnt b in der business in da 1st place.

[Xoriet]

bruh y were u checking their discord in da 1st place huh. y didnt u just keep out of KR's business. dis region doesnt concern u so u shouldnt b in der business in da 1st place.

When a region wants to claim that it has reformed and should be welcomed into the community but has a history of Nazism and worship of fascist ideals, you think that anyone is going to accept that without doing research? You have a fantastically naïve viewpoint.

[Professor Albus Dumbledore]

bruh y were u checking their discord in da 1st place huh. y didnt u just keep out of KR's business. dis region doesnt concern u so u shouldnt b in der business in da 1st place.

When a region wants to claim that it has reformed and should be welcomed into the community but has a history of Nazism and worship of fascist ideals, you think that anyone is going to accept that without doing research? You have a fantastically naïve viewpoint.

Well alr fine. Also plz dont call me naive. itz not nice

[Scheinenland]

I'm not going to make the Montealbans a scapegoat entirely because there certainly were simply problematic folks in KR when this first came up, but it's certainly a lot better since we got rid of them way back when. It's not really productive at this point to try to pander or virtue signal on behalf of the gov't of KR. For the last year and a half with the exclusion of a couple months, I've been slowly trying to purge the problematic elements from the region. This started when myself and a small group in KR's gov't committed to ridding KR of toxicity around a year ago. Since then we've certainly come a long way but we still have much to do. I do want to say to Lenlyvit that I appreciate how you've approached KR as a group that can be changed rather than one that is locked into it's very troubled past in perpetuity. There are many of us in KR that are very frustrated about our past and actually, seriously, are pushing for change.

You guys had three years of claiming you changed between 2018 and 2021. I go into your Discord three years after I saw the 2018 content on a screenshare call - and lo and behold, it's as bad as it was in 2018, just in different ways. It's only been a year since the last reveal and you think that it's unfair that you're still considered problematic for something that recent? If you're sincere you'll keep working on it until KR is actually clean rather than just claimed to be so. You've professed your innocence when it comes to problematic content two times now and been proven wrong both times. Why on earth do you think people will be quick to believe you this time?

If you want a chance to change, actually prove it instead of saying it and then having it exposed to the world that you've allowed problematic behaviors to flourish since the last time you proclaimed change was coming. The Montealbans you guys adored were certainly a core issue as to the volume of content, but one of them was nobility in KR and they were all clearly welcome there. You might want to start with reforming your founder, who is a root of the problem. A founder should be held accountable for the behavior of their members if that behavior goes unchecked and ignored. I have yet to see Scansinia admit a moment of culpability for enabling years and years of this. He's too busy trying to redirect everyone's attention to his political enemies to bother working on KR's image himself.

My apologies, I was attempting to express that the official perspective from KR's administration at this point is that we're not claiming nor publicly discussing anything. I agree with you that actions are better than words, certainly at this point. I believe that any region claiming to be perfect certainly would be disingenuous and that's not what we're trying to do. In the past when we've claimed to have improved it was in relation to the degree of Nazi LARPing or sympathy that occurred during the first few years of KR's founding. More recently, it's been in reference to the rather recent OOC issues that several former members were exposed for. Many of which, as you mentioned, were from Montealba. It's also important to consider that many of us had fought against the Montealbans since the beginning and recognized them as the problematic and highly toxic group that they were. It's been a very long and slow process to remove them and the other toxic elements and I'm still working to better improve the situation. As far as the founder goes, you're correct and I'll bring this up to him so that perhaps he can affirm his position and commitment to keeping KR Nazi-free.

[Scheinenland]

When a region wants to claim that it has reformed and should be welcomed into the community but has a history of Nazism and worship of fascist ideals, you think that anyone is going to accept that without doing research? You have a fantastically naïve viewpoint.

Well alr fine. Also plz dont call me naive. itz not nice

You don't seem to understand the situation.

[WayNeacTia]

When a region wants to claim that it has reformed and should be welcomed into the community but has a history of Nazism and worship of fascist ideals, you think that anyone is going to accept that without doing research? You have a fantastically naïve viewpoint.

Well alr fine. Also plz dont call me naive. itz not nice

About as nice as your statements to people as of late.....

[Professor Albus Dumbledore]

Well alr fine. Also plz dont call me naive. itz not nice

About as nice as your statements to people as of late.....

Dummies is slang for "yo" my guy. And I was angry dat day. Bro anyways about da KR topic, we gotta get bak to it.

[Fachumonn]

About as nice as your statements to people as of late.....

Dummies is slang for "yo" my guy. And I was angry dat day. Bro anyways about da KR topic, we gotta get bak to it.

You spell like a kindergartner. And you think it's cool to abbreviate literally anything.

[Solamerazos]

bruh y were u checking their discord in da 1st place huh. y didnt u just keep out of KR's business. dis region doesnt concern u so u shouldnt b in der business in da 1st place.

When a region wants to claim that it has reformed and should be welcomed into the community but has a history of Nazism and worship of fascist ideals, you think that anyone is going to accept that without doing research? You have a fantastically naïve viewpoint.

We still combat fascism,trust me nation with fascist ideologie get banned

[Solamerazos]

When a region wants to claim that it has reformed and should be welcomed into the community but has a history of Nazism and worship of fascist ideals, you think that anyone is going to accept that without doing research? You have a fantastically naïve viewpoint.

We still combat fascism,trust me nation with fascist ideologie get banned

And there was an fascist nation got ejected by Scansina,that the proof that we combat fascism.

[Xoriet]

We still combat fascism,trust me nation with fascist ideologie get banned

And there was an fascist nation got ejected by Scansina,that the proof that we combat fascism.

I said historically, not currently. And what I log dumped of you guys last time contained very little fascist material and was of an entirely different nature. Furthermore, that line of purging fascists was used last time KR was claiming it was combating fascism. What they did instead was facilitate a culture of OOC toxicity and unacceptable content in the wake of abandoning the copious Nazi jokes and posts in their Discord. Scheinenland claims that is being worked on and it's entirely up to you guys whether or not you ever manage an actual reform to the point that the community is willing to give you a chance.

[Solamerazos]

And there was an fascist nation got ejected by Scansina,that the proof that we combat fascism.

I said historically, not currently. And what I log dumped of you guys last time contained very little fascist material and was of an entirely different nature. Furthermore, that line of purging fascists was used last time KR was claiming it was combating fascism. What they did instead was facilitate a culture of OOC toxicity and unacceptable content in the wake of abandoning the copious Nazi jokes and posts in their Discord. Scheinenland claims that is being worked on and it's entirely up to you guys whether or not you ever manage an actual reform to the point that the community is willing to give you a chance.

So you are saying that we are still problematic because of the past and problem in the regional discord server?