EDIT: Accidently posted this from the Wrong Nation. Fixed it!
Lenlyvit wrote:Just because Scansinia founded a region that turned towards Nazism and fascism does not mean that they themselves are part of that ideology. I hate how you have me defending them, but it is how it is. I don't know what happened with Tomisburg, so I can't comment on them, but it looks like they've moved away from Kaiserreich. As to whether or not they've changed away from Nazism and fascism, they have a giant sign on their WFE prohibiting those ideologies and have the anti-fascist dispatch pinned. Also, the top anti-fascist regions which update the Civil Defense Siren removed them from the list, which means they are no longer considered to have those ideologies.
Lenlyvit wrote:That's your opinion, and you're right that you're entirely within your rights to state your opinion. But I have a differing opinion, and my opinion is that kreich is no longer fascist or Nazis. This also happens to be the opinion of the large anti-fascist regions that removed kreich from the Civil Defense Siren, all while acknowledging that kreich continues to have an edgy and OOC problem that they need to fix.
I'm sorry but if you state you self that you hate how you are being forced to defend them, that to me would be a call to re-examine a stance more thoroughly. As for founding a region that turned towards Nazism, it isn't just that simple, they didn't just found a region, they maintained power as the founder through out that regions history. They allowed it to turn towards Nazism, I know you understand the mechnics of how regions work, at any point they could have held folk accountable, removed them, banned them, or stopped it in stead they made an active choice to allow it to thrive in a community they had executive control of. By being the founder they hold repsonsibility for thier region. If you think I am mischaracterizing him, it is well within in site rules to report me to moderation as calling someone a Nazi, or White Supremacy. If my characterization of him is that far off the mark there is recourse, so if you beleive I am truly out of line no hard feelings.
Adding the Line on a WFE doesn't mean anything, it's lip services. I'm asking to show me the work. What policies have they implimented? Tomisburg was the one taking responsbility of removing the element as you pointed out they're no longer involved after they proceeded to destroy another organization's discord, which suggest his word isn't probably the most reliable. What policies have Scansia carried out? Who was the last Nazi they booted? What are the punishments for dog whistling? What are thier criteria for identifying it since our seems to be so disparate.
Also simply saying the Civil Defense Siren took them off isn't enough. Are the individuals behind Civil Defense siren in support of your efforts to repeal the liberation? If that is their conviction you have my word I will gladly cease and desist from commenting further. This is be last post on this thread if you can get them to post on this thread in support of it. You're using them as proof of change, well then let them come in here and comment and support you if the Civil Defense Siren truly beleives that, unless you have an authority to speak for them.
Lenlyvit wrote:I am listening to your knowledge on the matter, so please do not think that I'm not. I've also been looking up at least one thing which you've said, and notified you of what I found. That's listening.
This is valid, and you are correct.
Lenlyvit wrote:I think you're trying to hold kreich up to a standard which they cannot achieve, and probably never will. I'm extremely anti-fascist, and combat it, yet I myself don't go looking and investigating fascist and Nazis symbols.
This may come off as a little abrupt sounding and I apologize I cannot find a better way to word it, but not being a Nazi and not being a fascist is actually pretty easy, most people do it everday. Most regions never have a history of it. Most regions don't have issues with dogwhistles. Most root them out. Considering it's the norm I would say it's a pretty acheivable standard. The problem is this one couldn't do that , and when they did they lost the right to be afforded reasonable doubt as to thier motives in my books, because they couldn't something so simple as not be National Socialist region. The burden of proof on change should be higher, and for me it is and I am suggesting to the larger community it should higher for them to when it comes to make a decision on your if they should support your proposal.
Lenlyvit wrote:Emphasis on "was" a fascist and Nazis region. They no longer are, and that was one of the main drives behind the liberation. I passed this liberation while riding anti-kreich sentiment instead of passing a condemnation, which I had originally drafted. This resolution is now pointless, and almost four years later remains toothless as well. It's time to repeal it.
I think it does have teeth, it does something really great, in the absent of everything else it humbles thems, it makes them impotent and reliant one individual for thier security. If at any given point Scansia were to be blatantly rule break, that's it for the region because of the liberation. It makes their founder accountable and make the entire region dependant on thier acountability, there is no passwording it, no huddling up. And on top of that Shame itself is a really great tool, when you're dealing with such a shameful ideology.
and I wholly admit this is an unfair question and you certainly shouldn't answer it. As a matter of fact I will point out that you have no control over what the region does once you repeal the liberation. But if you are that confident that you would be willing to take responsibility if unpon repeal they return to thier old ways? Because I feel like after dedicating yourself to the passage of this, after arguing your point not just the initial time but now, that I would be hard press (even though logically I don't think it's a valid take) to not emotionally hold you responsible for negative consequence that occurs from this repeal given how much warning I've laid out and I don't think I would be the only one doing so.
Anyways I'm obviously not going to talk you away from your position, which is regrettable, I will come back in to rebut a reply as I said I will go post for post and go blue in the face as this is something I am passionate about, so I can't say I have any intention of walking away (unless as stated earlier the Civil Defense Siren support occurs, in which I'll hold up my word) . I will reply to any new arguments in favor it, but I think you and I are stuck in a loop. And I do appreicate that as you pointed out, you were at least willing to listen. I know you think you're doing the right thing and I think I am, so no respect lost and if I ever went over the bounds I apologize. I wish nothing but the best in all your endeavors except this one.