NATION

PASSWORD

[Draft] Repeal: Liberate Kaiserreich

A chamber dedicated to the dissemination of inter-regional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary.

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Lenlyvit
Diplomat
 
Posts: 954
Founded: Feb 13, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Lenlyvit » Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:47 am

Scheinenland wrote:Greetings, everyone. I lead the anti-Nazism/Fascism initiative in Kaiserreich. I wanted to come and explain our efforts to combat Nazism and Fascism in the region. We actively ban any new and existing nations with Nazi symbolism, slogans, attributes, or anything else that is relevant to National Socialism. Naturally, our name does attract many nations looking for a place to espouse their extremist and abhorrent views, but we take our banishment policy seriously. I've made sure to collect the names of all recent purges to buttress that commitment for you all. The following list was compiled after I started recording the purges at the start of this month. We enforced the policy just the same before but we didn't record it.

https://www.nationstates.net/nation=austria-deuscthland
Ejected for motto;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=baltikum
Ejected for motto;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=germanic_people_of_germany
Ejected for motto;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=trollton
Ejected for flag;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=west_polandia
Ejected for flag and banner;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=weltkrieg_reich
Ejected for motto;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=greater_deutch_reich
Ejected for name and currency;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=volksneu
Ejected for motto;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=reformed_avalon
Ejected for flag and motto;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=europa_reich
Ejected for flag;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=98th_deathkorps_regiment
Ejected for flag, motto, name;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=kaiserliche_hiveworld
Ejected for motto;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=schwarzer_drachen
Ejected for flag and motto;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=asahi_teikoku
Ejected for motto;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=nahost
Ejected for motto;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=gorvok
Ejected for flag;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=koldachia
Ejected for Discord icon;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=the_based_lithuanians
Ejected for flag;

Thank you for the enlightening post.
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Xoriet
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1889
Founded: Jun 08, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Xoriet » Mon Apr 26, 2021 4:08 am

Against on grounds of their continued bad Discord content up until I had to point it out - again, just like in 2018 - which shows that they haven't made very enthusiastic steps to improve as a region since. Eradicating fascism only means so much if you don't also excise other problems in the region. Instead they were tolerated and even encouraged. Up until KR can actually demonstrate sincere change for the better instead of migrating to the next form of problematic behavior, against.
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Lenlyvit
Diplomat
 
Posts: 954
Founded: Feb 13, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Lenlyvit » Mon Apr 26, 2021 4:19 am

Xoriet wrote:Against on grounds of their continued bad Discord content up until I had to point it out - again, just like in 2018 - which shows that they haven't made very enthusiastic steps to improve as a region since. Eradicating fascism only means so much if you don't also excise other problems in the region. Instead they were tolerated and even encouraged. Up until KR can actually demonstrate sincere change for the better instead of migrating to the next form of problematic behavior, against.


OOC moderation issues should be handled via the blacklist and warning embassy regions, not the liberation proposal. The blacklist has been effective in the past, still continues to be effective now, and is used in instances of bad OOC moderation. The liberation, on the other hand, is used for fighting fascism and Nazism which no longer are in kreich.
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The Greater Gothic Empire
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 144
Founded: May 14, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby The Greater Gothic Empire » Mon Apr 26, 2021 4:26 am

Greetings. As the supreme autocratic head of state and government of a former self-governing dependency of Kaiserreich which had distanced itself from Kaiserreich due to obvious reasons I myself could hardly explain, let alone sharp ideological differences as well as differences in government, sometimes triggered by Eskvor's Operation Phoenix Rising, I support this repeal. In case you may be wondering who this nation is, it is Most Eternal Angvaria/The State of Angmar, whose region—my region, prior to its demise in 2017 by Blitzkrieg due to the absence of its founder account, split from the far-right community principally due to its not-so-secret collaboration with invader organizations as the Invaders.
Last edited by The Greater Gothic Empire on Mon Apr 26, 2021 4:30 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Xoriet
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1889
Founded: Jun 08, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Xoriet » Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:30 am

Lenlyvit wrote:
Xoriet wrote:Against on grounds of their continued bad Discord content up until I had to point it out - again, just like in 2018 - which shows that they haven't made very enthusiastic steps to improve as a region since. Eradicating fascism only means so much if you don't also excise other problems in the region. Instead they were tolerated and even encouraged. Up until KR can actually demonstrate sincere change for the better instead of migrating to the next form of problematic behavior, against.


OOC moderation issues should be handled via the blacklist and warning embassy regions, not the liberation proposal. The blacklist has been effective in the past, still continues to be effective now, and is used in instances of bad OOC moderation. The liberation, on the other hand, is used for fighting fascism and Nazism which no longer are in kreich.

They don't want it, which is why it serves as a further deterrent for perpetuating certain behaviors. Relying on the good intentions of certain members in lieu of the misdeeds of other members and the blatantly manipulative tactics of the founder is hardly a sufficient insurance for such. The Liberation poses an actual threat to them if their founder was ever lost. I know that you don't agree that Liberations should be used as a punishment rather than a tool to protect regions, but when it comes to regions that refuse to learn, it's better to keep it if it's already there. Removing it really just takes away some of the leverage used against their worse behavior.
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Tinhampton
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8173
Founded: Oct 05, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Tinhampton » Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:34 am

Lenlyvit wrote:
Xoriet wrote:Against on grounds of their continued bad Discord content up until I had to point it out - again, just like in 2018 - which shows that they haven't made very enthusiastic steps to improve as a region since. Eradicating fascism only means so much if you don't also excise other problems in the region. Instead they were tolerated and even encouraged. Up until KR can actually demonstrate sincere change for the better instead of migrating to the next form of problematic behavior, against.


OOC moderation issues should be handled via the blacklist and warning embassy regions, not the liberation proposal. The blacklist has been effective in the past, still continues to be effective now, and is used in instances of bad OOC moderation. The liberation, on the other hand, is used for fighting fascism and Nazism which no longer are in kreich.

I agree and am now WHOLEHEARTEDLY SUPPORTIVE OF THIS PROPOSAL
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Lenlyvit
Diplomat
 
Posts: 954
Founded: Feb 13, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Lenlyvit » Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:02 am

Xoriet wrote:
Lenlyvit wrote:
OOC moderation issues should be handled via the blacklist and warning embassy regions, not the liberation proposal. The blacklist has been effective in the past, still continues to be effective now, and is used in instances of bad OOC moderation. The liberation, on the other hand, is used for fighting fascism and Nazism which no longer are in kreich.

They don't want it, which is why it serves as a further deterrent for perpetuating certain behaviors. Relying on the good intentions of certain members in lieu of the misdeeds of other members and the blatantly manipulative tactics of the founder is hardly a sufficient insurance for such. The Liberation poses an actual threat to them if their founder was ever lost. I know that you don't agree that Liberations should be used as a punishment rather than a tool to protect regions, but when it comes to regions that refuse to learn, it's better to keep it if it's already there. Removing it really just takes away some of the leverage used against their worse behavior.

How is this serving as leverage now though? I don't know if they've been working to fix their OOC issues since November, but Scansinia is no closer to CTEing or being deleted for rule breaking now than he was before and I doubt he'll be close to it in the future. The most effective way to correct bad OOC moderation is via the blacklist, because if they aren't working to fix their OOC problems with the liberation in place now then they won't do it if the liberation is kept in place for the future.
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Nova Vandalia
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 196
Founded: Jan 19, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Nova Vandalia » Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:11 am

Scheinenland wrote:Greetings, everyone. I lead the anti-Nazism/Fascism initiative in Kaiserreich. I wanted to come and explain our efforts to combat Nazism and Fascism in the region. We actively ban any new and existing nations with Nazi symbolism, slogans, attributes, or anything else that is relevant to National Socialism. Naturally, our name does attract many nations looking for a place to espouse their extremist and abhorrent views, but we take our banishment policy seriously. I've made sure to collect the names of all recent purges to buttress that commitment for you all. The following list was compiled after I started recording the purges at the start of this month. We enforced the policy just the same before but we didn't record it.


So since you all claim to be putting in the work, I though I'd look through your region and It took me literally a basic cursory exploration of your nations to find one flying a the American Falangist Party Flag... the Falangist symbol "The Yoke and Arrows"in Red and Black are widely utilized by National Syndicalists and Fascists throughout Spain, Europe, and the world.

https://www.nationstates.net/nation=novo_corvia

I mean that is a blatant example and one that should have easily been caught.

That being said, while I personally would include the use of Iron Crosses as troubling, I understand the larger NS culture isn't as heavy handed as I am, making this arguable the only blatantly obvious Fascist in your region, based off of the flags.

You might want to resolve that before even more folks notice it.
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Lenlyvit
Diplomat
 
Posts: 954
Founded: Feb 13, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Lenlyvit » Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:13 am

Nova Vandalia wrote:
Scheinenland wrote:Greetings, everyone. I lead the anti-Nazism/Fascism initiative in Kaiserreich. I wanted to come and explain our efforts to combat Nazism and Fascism in the region. We actively ban any new and existing nations with Nazi symbolism, slogans, attributes, or anything else that is relevant to National Socialism. Naturally, our name does attract many nations looking for a place to espouse their extremist and abhorrent views, but we take our banishment policy seriously. I've made sure to collect the names of all recent purges to buttress that commitment for you all. The following list was compiled after I started recording the purges at the start of this month. We enforced the policy just the same before but we didn't record it.


So since you all claim to be putting in the work, I though I'd look through your region and It took me literally a basic cursory exploration of your nations to find one flying a the American Falangist Party Flag... the Falangist symbol "The Yoke and Arrows"in Red and Black are widely utilized by National Syndicalists and Fascists throughout Spain, Europe, and the world.

https://www.nationstates.net/nation=novo_corvia

I mean that is a blatant example and one that should have easily been caught.

That being said, while I personally would include the use of Iron Crosses as troubling, I understand the larger NS culture isn't as heavy handed as I am, making this arguable the only blatantly obvious Fascist in your region, based off of the flags.

You might want to resolve that before even more folks notice it.

To be entirely fair, I've never heard of the American Falangist Party nor knew about that symbol. It's entirely possible they didn't either, but yeah might want to boot it.
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Xoriet
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1889
Founded: Jun 08, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Xoriet » Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:32 am

Lenlyvit wrote:
Xoriet wrote:They don't want it, which is why it serves as a further deterrent for perpetuating certain behaviors. Relying on the good intentions of certain members in lieu of the misdeeds of other members and the blatantly manipulative tactics of the founder is hardly a sufficient insurance for such. The Liberation poses an actual threat to them if their founder was ever lost. I know that you don't agree that Liberations should be used as a punishment rather than a tool to protect regions, but when it comes to regions that refuse to learn, it's better to keep it if it's already there. Removing it really just takes away some of the leverage used against their worse behavior.

How is this serving as leverage now though? I don't know if they've been working to fix their OOC issues since November, but Scansinia is no closer to CTEing or being deleted for rule breaking now than he was before and I doubt he'll be close to it in the future. The most effective way to correct bad OOC moderation is via the blacklist, because if they aren't working to fix their OOC problems with the liberation in place now then they won't do it if the liberation is kept in place for the future.

Some of their allies are just as problematic, if not more so, and are also celebrated with their own noble titles in the KR server, so their embassies are also not going to care about any of it and have already proven so. That's one means of dealing with the problem you mentioned that is thus pretty useless. They're also used to being blacklisted since way back and clearly that hasn't improved their morale either, because they just transitioned from one form of unacceptable to another. The only thing they can't ignore and do actually care about is the Liberation. If they want it removed, maybe they should actually earn the right to be freed of the one thing that holds them back, as the Liberation is also visible to new nations joining. Speaking as a member of a Condemned region, nations do absolutely notice badges and it can impact their decision to stay or not. Crippling their ability to stop an invasion if their founder should ever disappear is only one of two effects it has on a region.
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Lenlyvit
Diplomat
 
Posts: 954
Founded: Feb 13, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Lenlyvit » Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:51 am

Xoriet wrote:
Lenlyvit wrote:How is this serving as leverage now though? I don't know if they've been working to fix their OOC issues since November, but Scansinia is no closer to CTEing or being deleted for rule breaking now than he was before and I doubt he'll be close to it in the future. The most effective way to correct bad OOC moderation is via the blacklist, because if they aren't working to fix their OOC problems with the liberation in place now then they won't do it if the liberation is kept in place for the future.

Some of their allies are just as problematic, if not more so, and are also celebrated with their own noble titles in the KR server, so their embassies are also not going to care about any of it and have already proven so. That's one means of dealing with the problem you mentioned that is thus pretty useless. They're also used to being blacklisted since way back and clearly that hasn't improved their morale either, because they just transitioned from one form of unacceptable to another. The only thing they can't ignore and do actually care about is the Liberation. If they want it removed, maybe they should actually earn the right to be freed of the one thing that holds them back, as the Liberation is also visible to new nations joining. Speaking as a member of a Condemned region, nations do absolutely notice badges and it can impact their decision to stay or not. Crippling their ability to stop an invasion if their founder should ever disappear is only one of two effects it has on a region.

Then let them sit in their own little blacklisted bubble, and far away from the respectable regions of NS. Even with the liberation in place they are growing with recruitment, and imho a liberation is a lot easier to explain away than a condemnation. "Scansinia will never CTE, he'll never get deleted" is probably more than enough to convince new players, and the liberation badge is completely different than the black condemnation badge that TP has. Let OOC moderation issues stay outside of the SC and it's purview.
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Bhang Bhang Duc
Minister
 
Posts: 2858
Founded: Dec 17, 2003
New York Times Democracy

Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:17 am

While I was relatively supportive of your original attempt four months ago, your recent behaviour in the SC makes me considerably less trusting of you as an author.

Add to this some decent points made by Xoriet and others regarding the need for the Liberation to stay in place.

Based on the above I can’t see me or TWP voting for this.
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Pierconium wrote:I see Funk as an opportunistic manipulator that utilises the means available to him to reach his goals. In other words, a nation after my own heart.

RiderSyl wrote:If an enchantress made it so one raid could bring about world peace, Unibot would ask raiders to just sign a petition instead.

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Lenlyvit
Diplomat
 
Posts: 954
Founded: Feb 13, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Lenlyvit » Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:35 am

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:While I was relatively supportive of your original attempt four months ago, your recent behaviour in the SC makes me considerably less trusting of you as an author.

Add to this some decent points made by Xoriet and others regarding the need for the Liberation to stay in place.

Based on the above I can’t see me or TWP voting for this.

It's okay BBD, I understand. To be truthful, my recent antics in the SC have indeed been really shite and I apologize for that. But I don't agree with Xoriet and others that OOC moderation issues should be handled in the SC liberation, especially because that's a very slippery slope that the SC should not get involved in. Are we now going to liberate India if this is the case? Are we going to liberate other regions that have or had OOC moderation issues?

Some say XKI has really bad moderation issues, are we going to liberate them? Do you see how slippery this thinking will become down the road, and what it could lead to?
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Bhang Bhang Duc
Minister
 
Posts: 2858
Founded: Dec 17, 2003
New York Times Democracy

Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:45 am

Lenlyvit wrote:
Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:While I was relatively supportive of your original attempt four months ago, your recent behaviour in the SC makes me considerably less trusting of you as an author.

Add to this some decent points made by Xoriet and others regarding the need for the Liberation to stay in place.

Based on the above I can’t see me or TWP voting for this.

It's okay BBD, I understand. To be truthful, my recent antics in the SC have indeed been really shite and I apologize for that. But I don't agree with Xoriet and others that OOC moderation issues should be handled in the SC liberation, especially because that's a very slippery slope that the SC should not get involved in. Are we now going to liberate India if this is the case? Are we going to liberate other regions that have or had OOC moderation issues?

Some say XKI has really bad moderation issues, are we going to liberate them? Do you see how slippery this thinking will become down the road, and what it could lead to?

The slippery slope argument doesn’t stand up, in fact it never does. It’s not a rational way to debate. Offensive liberations haven’t been used all that often and I have no problem with them being placed on OOC offensive regions.

Certainly blacklist them, but add the pressure to change of a Liberation. And if they do change keep it there to stop any backsliding.
Former Delegate and Guardian of The West Pacific. TWP's Former Minister for World Assembly Affairs

The West Pacific's Official Welshman, Astronomer and Old Fart

Pierconium wrote:I see Funk as an opportunistic manipulator that utilises the means available to him to reach his goals. In other words, a nation after my own heart.

RiderSyl wrote:If an enchantress made it so one raid could bring about world peace, Unibot would ask raiders to just sign a petition instead.

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Outer Sparta
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11671
Founded: Dec 26, 2014
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Outer Sparta » Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:47 am

Lenlyvit wrote:
Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:While I was relatively supportive of your original attempt four months ago, your recent behaviour in the SC makes me considerably less trusting of you as an author.

Add to this some decent points made by Xoriet and others regarding the need for the Liberation to stay in place.

Based on the above I can’t see me or TWP voting for this.

It's okay BBD, I understand. To be truthful, my recent antics in the SC have indeed been really shite and I apologize for that. But I don't agree with Xoriet and others that OOC moderation issues should be handled in the SC liberation, especially because that's a very slippery slope that the SC should not get involved in. Are we now going to liberate India if this is the case? Are we going to liberate other regions that have or had OOC moderation issues?

Some say XKI has really bad moderation issues, are we going to liberate them? Do you see how slippery this thinking will become down the road, and what it could lead to?

XKI isn't a region that encourages Nazism/fascism which is why Kaiserreich was liberated in the first place. I'm still skeptical about whether or not they've truly changed.
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Lenlyvit
Diplomat
 
Posts: 954
Founded: Feb 13, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Lenlyvit » Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:59 am

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:
Lenlyvit wrote:It's okay BBD, I understand. To be truthful, my recent antics in the SC have indeed been really shite and I apologize for that. But I don't agree with Xoriet and others that OOC moderation issues should be handled in the SC liberation, especially because that's a very slippery slope that the SC should not get involved in. Are we now going to liberate India if this is the case? Are we going to liberate other regions that have or had OOC moderation issues?

Some say XKI has really bad moderation issues, are we going to liberate them? Do you see how slippery this thinking will become down the road, and what it could lead to?

The slippery slope argument doesn’t stand up, in fact it never does. It’s not a rational way to debate. Offensive liberations haven’t been used all that often and I have no problem with them being placed on OOC offensive regions.

Certainly blacklist them, but add the pressure to change of a Liberation. And if they do change keep it there to stop any backsliding.

How do we know There will be backsliding? We don't. For all we know, they could work harder to fix their region. Having it in place accomplished its goal of eradicating Nazism and fascism from the region, but I doubt it can be used to effectively make them fix their OOC issues. Scansinia will not CTE, I'm almost positive they've made contingencies for it.

Outer Sparta wrote:
Lenlyvit wrote:It's okay BBD, I understand. To be truthful, my recent antics in the SC have indeed been really shite and I apologize for that. But I don't agree with Xoriet and others that OOC moderation issues should be handled in the SC liberation, especially because that's a very slippery slope that the SC should not get involved in. Are we now going to liberate India if this is the case? Are we going to liberate other regions that have or had OOC moderation issues?

Some say XKI has really bad moderation issues, are we going to liberate them? Do you see how slippery this thinking will become down the road, and what it could lead to?

XKI isn't a region that encourages Nazism/fascism which is why Kaiserreich was liberated in the first place. I'm still skeptical about whether or not they've truly changed.

We're discussing OOC moderation, not Nazism/fascism. Some say XKI has a problem with their views of raiders, yet I don't think they do.
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New Drakia
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Oct 02, 2015
Father Knows Best State

Postby New Drakia » Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:55 am

Nova Vandalia wrote:
Scheinenland wrote:Greetings, everyone. I lead the anti-Nazism/Fascism initiative in Kaiserreich. I wanted to come and explain our efforts to combat Nazism and Fascism in the region. We actively ban any new and existing nations with Nazi symbolism, slogans, attributes, or anything else that is relevant to National Socialism. Naturally, our name does attract many nations looking for a place to espouse their extremist and abhorrent views, but we take our banishment policy seriously. I've made sure to collect the names of all recent purges to buttress that commitment for you all. The following list was compiled after I started recording the purges at the start of this month. We enforced the policy just the same before but we didn't record it.


So since you all claim to be putting in the work, I though I'd look through your region and It took me literally a basic cursory exploration of your nations to find one flying a the American Falangist Party Flag... the Falangist symbol "The Yoke and Arrows"in Red and Black are widely utilized by National Syndicalists and Fascists throughout Spain, Europe, and the world.

https://www.nationstates.net/nation=novo_corvia

I mean that is a blatant example and one that should have easily been caught.

That being said, while I personally would include the use of Iron Crosses as troubling, I understand the larger NS culture isn't as heavy handed as I am, making this arguable the only blatantly obvious Fascist in your region, based off of the flags.

You might want to resolve that before even more folks notice it.


Thank you for bringing this to our attention,
I've personally booted their nation as there was, at the time, nobody else online to do so.

As Lenlyvit said, sometimes stuff like this slips through because of obscure images.
Per example, the Kemalists party also include arrows, but they aren't a extreme-right political faction.

Sometimes things slip through the cracks.


-Archduke of Kaiserreich, New Drakia.

(First and probably only post, I'll leave the rest up to our FA-ministry)

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Scheinenland
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 25
Founded: Dec 23, 2016
Father Knows Best State

Postby Scheinenland » Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:09 am

Nova Vandalia wrote:
Scheinenland wrote:Greetings, everyone. I lead the anti-Nazism/Fascism initiative in Kaiserreich. I wanted to come and explain our efforts to combat Nazism and Fascism in the region. We actively ban any new and existing nations with Nazi symbolism, slogans, attributes, or anything else that is relevant to National Socialism. Naturally, our name does attract many nations looking for a place to espouse their extremist and abhorrent views, but we take our banishment policy seriously. I've made sure to collect the names of all recent purges to buttress that commitment for you all. The following list was compiled after I started recording the purges at the start of this month. We enforced the policy just the same before but we didn't record it.


So since you all claim to be putting in the work, I though I'd look through your region and It took me literally a basic cursory exploration of your nations to find one flying a the American Falangist Party Flag... the Falangist symbol "The Yoke and Arrows"in Red and Black are widely utilized by National Syndicalists and Fascists throughout Spain, Europe, and the world.

https://www.nationstates.net/nation=novo_corvia

I mean that is a blatant example and one that should have easily been caught.

That being said, while I personally would include the use of Iron Crosses as troubling, I understand the larger NS culture isn't as heavy handed as I am, making this arguable the only blatantly obvious Fascist in your region, based off of the flags.

You might want to resolve that before even more folks notice it.



I myself was not familiar with the fascist symbolism of Francoist Spain, but I assure you that this is simply a one-off incident. The staggering majority of fascist symbols are recognizable to our moderation team and we have done much work to purge them from the region. Personally, I would agree about the Iron Cross being included if Kaiserreich's theme wasn't that of the German Empire, which I believe is a specific historical exception to the rule. To me, it's obvious that for the most part, nations are not using Iron Crosses in Kaiserreich to allude to National Socialism but rather to German Imperialism.

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Quebecshire
Envoy
 
Posts: 266
Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Quebecshire » Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:25 pm

Responding to yesterday's topic, thank you Lenlyvit for bringing up the population numbers, it seems you have a very strong point in that regard.

To where this thread is at today, I don't necessarily think it's a slippery slope issue, but I'm not keen on OOC-related liberations in general and I worry they could be distributed a little arbitrarily. Should the LCN have been liberated for our fuckery that came to light last July? Probably not, that would've been rather foolish and unrelated to the WASC, in my opinion.

The issue here is that liberation already exists. Do we want to repeal it since it's already here while they have these issues? I think that's more complicated.
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"Quebecshire has proven time and time again that he is perfectly capable of standing in front of a room, full of people who hate him and continuing to defend his views." - Redacted
"Quebec may be more regionalist than I ever was, which is basically the highest compliment I’m capable of giving." - HumanSanity
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Great Algerstonia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 645
Founded: Mar 21, 2019
Father Knows Best State

Postby Great Algerstonia » Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:22 pm

Nova Vandalia wrote:
Scheinenland wrote:Greetings, everyone. I lead the anti-Nazism/Fascism initiative in Kaiserreich. I wanted to come and explain our efforts to combat Nazism and Fascism in the region. We actively ban any new and existing nations with Nazi symbolism, slogans, attributes, or anything else that is relevant to National Socialism. Naturally, our name does attract many nations looking for a place to espouse their extremist and abhorrent views, but we take our banishment policy seriously. I've made sure to collect the names of all recent purges to buttress that commitment for you all. The following list was compiled after I started recording the purges at the start of this month. We enforced the policy just the same before but we didn't record it.


So since you all claim to be putting in the work, I though I'd look through your region and It took me literally a basic cursory exploration of your nations to find one flying a the American Falangist Party Flag... the Falangist symbol "The Yoke and Arrows"in Red and Black are widely utilized by National Syndicalists and Fascists throughout Spain, Europe, and the world.

https://www.nationstates.net/nation=novo_corvia

I mean that is a blatant example and one that should have easily been caught.

That being said, while I personally would include the use of Iron Crosses as troubling, I understand the larger NS culture isn't as heavy handed as I am, making this arguable the only blatantly obvious Fascist in your region, based off of the flags.

You might want to resolve that before even more folks notice it.

The Iron Cross is fine. It was originally used officially as the Prussian war flag in 1816, and continues to be used today as the symbol of the German armed forces.
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Quebecshire
Envoy
 
Posts: 266
Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Quebecshire » Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:29 pm

Great Algerstonia wrote:The Iron Cross is fine. It was originally used officially as the Prussian war flag in 1816, and continues to be used today as the symbol of the German armed forces.

The iron cross can often be used as a dogwhistile. In plenty of cases, it's passable (i.e. not fash or in that arena), but it's important to not be dismissive.
Chief Consul Quebecshire of the Republic of The League
NationStates Today Gameplay and Politics Writer
"Quebecshire has proven time and time again that he is perfectly capable of standing in front of a room, full of people who hate him and continuing to defend his views." - Redacted
"Quebec may be more regionalist than I ever was, which is basically the highest compliment I’m capable of giving." - HumanSanity
"I find it disappointing that Quebec has posted without saying cope." - Fauxia

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Indo-Malaysia
Minister
 
Posts: 2562
Founded: Nov 07, 2014
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Indo-Malaysia » Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:06 pm

I must say, this is a rather intriguing discussion. Fair points raised all around.

Personally, were I a WA-member myself, would probably vote in favour of this resolution.
I have always been against the concept of "neoliberation"/La Navasse-type offensive resolutions. I feel that the cited resolution in the body is essentially the flagship of a wave of Security Council resolutions and bills in 2018 that served to take out-of-character disputes, and genuinely problematic groups and air their laundry in the open, causing previously isolated and ostracised communities* such as Nazi Europa (SC#246), Femdom Empire (SC#248) to gain public exposure and new players, thus in effect not only benefiting these regions, but also exposing potentially unaware players to the content there. Discussions on said resolutions acknowledged that due to the active founders, they did not expect the offensive liberations to be acted on for a long time, rendering the previously stated issues with the "neoliberation" concept not worth the effort: in fact, the region of Femdom Empire actually jumped ship to Femdom State, rendering SC#248 effectively useless (In fact, it was repealed shortly after by SC#250), causing the community to remain at-large until a later moderation intervention. It would perhaps be worth me staying that the leader of this particular venue is currently DOS.
These kinds of problems should absolutely be solved with discretion and great care. Unlike back then, we don't just have the informal "community blacklist", but also several beneficial new tools such as the Watchlist on the bot created by Augusta Alliance, notably used on the NSLeaders platform.

With my points on the nature, flawed intent and negative outcomes on the neoliberation wave aside, I wish to address SC#245 itself purely in a vacuum. For the purposes of this, and to make aware a possible conflict of interest, I wish to disclose that from late 2019 – around March 2021, I was serving in KAISERREICH as the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

Starting from top-to-bottom, the resolution immediately states that "Kaiserreich at this point in time is not yet founderless". More than four years later, this is evidently still the case. Whether the author was intending on this resolution (SC#245 ever being acted on, or expected to wait out a long period time, I do not know. I personally lean to the latter. The fact remains that the founder remains, and shows no signs of going anytime soon.
The next several points appear to address the following points, in a nutshell: nazi iconography and symbology, and very poor behaviour (well documented and screenshotted, for those curious). During my tenure in the region as noted earlier, I have personally seen and assisted with efforts to eradicate this to much success, a fact also attested to by the current Foreign Minister Tomisburg, and Scheinenland who is charge of "policing" the region – though by the time of my resignation, there is admittedly still work to do, especially regarding associate regions such as Montealba.
It is clear that there has been a noticeable turnaround, with KAISERREICH's reputation constrasting with that of, say 4 years ago. In fact, in 2020 the Imperial Army of KAISERREICH was participating in ANTIFA, with Vippertooth of The MT Army maintaining a commanding role in the relevant KReich discord server– something that would have been laughed at years earlier.

To conclude, on the basis of correcting a very bad precedent on dealing with OOC incidences within the Security Council, evidence of improving behaviour of the region cited, and the acknowledgement that the legislations goal every being carried out being wildly unrealistic, I believe it is in the interests of the council to strike out SC#245.

*With my argument on the ills of "neoliberations", I feel it is only right that I touch upon instances of the offensive liberation—albeit still controversial—within this august body. Perhaps the best known example would be "Liberate Nazi Europe" (SC#9). As noted in the relevant debate topic for this resolution, this was conducted at a time when there existed no extant founder, meaning the liberation question could realistically be acted on and the community taken down—the debate on the benefits and ills of such action aside. The "neoliberation" wave typically targeted regions with very active founders, rendering this function useless.

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Nova Vandalia
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 196
Founded: Jan 19, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Nova Vandalia » Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:08 pm

Alright so I'm home from work and decided to give it another once over with a little more detail and with less distraction.
As stated earlier I'm not counting the Iron Cross for the purposes of this, although again personally I'm not comfortable with and I'm also going to let "Gott Mitt Uns" slide as well as it's usage does also predate the WWII usage.

That being said I would like to know where KAISEREICH stands on the use of The Skull and Cross Bones, as and I don't know how I missed it on my first go around there is at least one country utilizing them for thier flag and one using the Nazi eagle sans Swastika.

Also another note you have at least two countries flying a Nasjonal Samling on their flags, and that one should be an obvious no go. This one is a little bit more obscure because it's much more region that the Skull and Crossbones, Iron Cross, and even than the Yokes and Arrow, as it's pretty much Nordic, but it is directly connected with Nazism as it was the symbol adopted by the Nazi Norway, It's the Yellow Suncross on Red Field, and yes I am counting the one that is sideways because the name of the country specifically belies a Nordic bent and it seems highly suspect in that way.

I didn't notice any one sneaking anything into mottos although there is one dude who's Motto is "anti lgbtq" and while not exclusive to fascism and Nazism I do feel like right now would be a good reminder that the LGBTQ+ individuals were also victims of the Nazi regime and that homophobia and transphobia have deep connection and roots with both, as the Institute for Sexology was of the first places that was vandalized during the Nazi Book Burnings. So it is very concerning at least to me personally to see that, and I think calls for at least a little concern.

I'd definitely love to see what all symbols, slogan, ect... you have included on the banned list and see if it has any other major gaps in it as being a group that has a history with it, and one that not doubt attracts it by name alone, you definitely need to be more aware than the average region and extra vigilant as well.
All rants and grunts are soley the opinion of Nova Vandalia and the not the opinion of those they're affiliated with.
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Scheinenland
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 25
Founded: Dec 23, 2016
Father Knows Best State

Postby Scheinenland » Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:26 pm

Nova Vandalia wrote:Alright so I'm home from work and decided to give it another once over with a little more detail and with less distraction.
As stated earlier I'm not counting the Iron Cross for the purposes of this, although again personally I'm not comfortable with and I'm also going to let "Gott Mitt Uns" slide as well as it's usage does also predate the WWII usage.

That being said I would like to know where KAISEREICH stands on the use of The Skull and Cross Bones, as and I don't know how I missed it on my first go around there is at least one country utilizing them for thier flag and one using the Nazi eagle sans Swastika.

Also another note you have at least two countries flying a Nasjonal Samling on their flags, and that one should be an obvious no go. This one is a little bit more obscure because it's much more region that the Skull and Crossbones, Iron Cross, and even than the Yokes and Arrow, as it's pretty much Nordic, but it is directly connected with Nazism as it was the symbol adopted by the Nazi Norway, It's the Yellow Suncross on Red Field, and yes I am counting the one that is sideways because the name of the country specifically belies a Nordic bent and it seems highly suspect in that way.

I didn't notice any one sneaking anything into mottos although there is one dude who's Motto is "anti lgbtq" and while not exclusive to fascism and Nazism I do feel like right now would be a good reminder that the LGBTQ+ individuals were also victims of the Nazi regime and that homophobia and transphobia have deep connection and roots with both, as the Institute for Sexology was of the first places that was vandalized during the Nazi Book Burnings. So it is very concerning at least to me personally to see that, and I think calls for at least a little concern.

I'd definitely love to see what all symbols, slogan, ect... you have included on the banned list and see if it has any other major gaps in it as being a group that has a history with it, and one that not doubt attracts it by name alone, you definitely need to be more aware than the average region and extra vigilant as well.

Hello! I went through all ~260 nations and I was able to find the skull and crossbones flag, but it isn't a Totenkopf. If it were, we would consider it a fascist symbol and thus a bannable offense. As far as the Nasjonal Samling ornaments, I could only find the one that you spoke of, that being the crooked one. Though because of the rather distant relation to the symbol and the anti-fascist work of the nation in question, we've just ordered him to change the flag. Here is the nation for reference:

https://www.nationstates.net/nation=resurged_valhalla
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ke.svg.png

If you have the time, I would appreciate it if you would link the other nation that you found with the symbol, as I could not find it myself.

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Nova Vandalia
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 196
Founded: Jan 19, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Nova Vandalia » Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:08 am

Scheinenland wrote:
Nova Vandalia wrote:Alright so I'm home from work and decided to give it another once over with a little more detail and with less distraction.
As stated earlier I'm not counting the Iron Cross for the purposes of this, although again personally I'm not comfortable with and I'm also going to let "Gott Mitt Uns" slide as well as it's usage does also predate the WWII usage.

That being said I would like to know where KAISEREICH stands on the use of The Skull and Cross Bones, as and I don't know how I missed it on my first go around there is at least one country utilizing them for thier flag and one using the Nazi eagle sans Swastika.

Also another note you have at least two countries flying a Nasjonal Samling on their flags, and that one should be an obvious no go. This one is a little bit more obscure because it's much more region that the Skull and Crossbones, Iron Cross, and even than the Yokes and Arrow, as it's pretty much Nordic, but it is directly connected with Nazism as it was the symbol adopted by the Nazi Norway, It's the Yellow Suncross on Red Field, and yes I am counting the one that is sideways because the name of the country specifically belies a Nordic bent and it seems highly suspect in that way.

I didn't notice any one sneaking anything into mottos although there is one dude who's Motto is "anti lgbtq" and while not exclusive to fascism and Nazism I do feel like right now would be a good reminder that the LGBTQ+ individuals were also victims of the Nazi regime and that homophobia and transphobia have deep connection and roots with both, as the Institute for Sexology was of the first places that was vandalized during the Nazi Book Burnings. So it is very concerning at least to me personally to see that, and I think calls for at least a little concern.

I'd definitely love to see what all symbols, slogan, ect... you have included on the banned list and see if it has any other major gaps in it as being a group that has a history with it, and one that not doubt attracts it by name alone, you definitely need to be more aware than the average region and extra vigilant as well.

Hello! I went through all ~260 nations and I was able to find the skull and crossbones flag, but it isn't a Totenkopf. If it were, we would consider it a fascist symbol and thus a bannable offense. As far as the Nasjonal Samling ornaments, I could only find the one that you spoke of, that being the crooked one. Though because of the rather distant relation to the symbol and the anti-fascist work of the nation in question, we've just ordered him to change the flag. Here is the nation for reference:

https://www.nationstates.net/nation=resurged_valhalla
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ke.svg.png

If you have the time, I would appreciate it if you would link the other nation that you found with the symbol, as I could not find it myself.



https://www.nationstates.net/nation=legomenon
All rants and grunts are soley the opinion of Nova Vandalia and the not the opinion of those they're affiliated with.
^-^

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