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[Draft] Repeal: Liberate Kaiserreich

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Lenlyvit
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[Draft] Repeal: Liberate Kaiserreich

Postby Lenlyvit » Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:41 am

Alright, now I'm going to serious mode. I'm bringing back this draft I had from awhile ago, and will persue it. I know how Kaiserreich acts, but this isn't about their immaturity. Instead, it's about righting a perversion of the liberation resolution that I committed and others followed. Feedback on it is appreciated, as always.

The Security Council,

Noting that at the time of its passage Security Council Resolution 245 (SC#245) was targeted at a region widely regarded as having Nazi/fascist tendencies;

Pointing out that the region's founder nation, Scansinia, is still around in full control of the community more than two years later despite the belief that the nation would be destroyed through either internal rebellion or the will of the almighty Violet;

Believing that since the passage of SC#245 Kaiserreich has worked internally to remove the Nazi/Fascist influences they once harboured, being officially removed from the list of Nazi regions maintained by Civil Defence Siren as a base to warn innocent nations away from evil regions;

Acknowledging that at the time of the passage of SC#245 Kaiserreich had almost thirty World Assembly nations within its borders, a number which over the last two years has dwindled to under twenty, making Kaiserreich a region which no longer poses a serious threat to regions different than theirs;

Further Believing that although Kaiserreich still has some serious issues within the region from national leaders, it is no longer a hotbed of Nazis or Fascist influences and will not let the region slip back into its old ways;

Hereby Repeals Security Council Resolution #245.
Last edited by Lenlyvit on Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Groot
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Postby Groot » Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:31 am

Believing that since the passage of SC#245 Kaiserreich has improved on its widely held status of being a proponent of Nazi/Fascist ideology

So... they're even better at being Nazis/Fascists than they were before? :p
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Lenlyvit
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Postby Lenlyvit » Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:35 am

Groot wrote:
Believing that since the passage of SC#245 Kaiserreich has improved on its widely held status of being a proponent of Nazi/Fascist ideology

So... they're even better at being Nazis/Fascists than they were before? :p

Erm, no. I should probably find a better way to word it I guess.

Edit: Re-wrote the clause.
Last edited by Lenlyvit on Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tinhampton
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Postby Tinhampton » Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:51 am

It would be easy for me to dismiss this as the latest of your Make The Security Council Active Again! crusades. I note, however, that this proposal is identical in substance to your previous draft from November, save that the words "had an effect upon the regional community, and that that effect will remain even after it is removed by this repeal resolution" have here been replaced by "was a perversion of the resolution category, and that to correct that fact SC#245 must be repealed."

You submitted your original draft (under a different nation) at the end of November 2020 and then withdrew it, slightly over three hours before it was due to go to vote, due to "some concerning things [on KAISERREICH's] RMB." Why do you believe that KAISERREICH's situation has improved and/or become less shitposty, relative to early December 2020, to the extent that you feel justified in redrafting or resubmitting this proposal?
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Lenlyvit
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Postby Lenlyvit » Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:06 am

Tinhampton wrote:Why do you believe that KAISERREICH's situation has improved and/or become less shitposty, relative to early December 2020, to the extent that you feel justified in redrafting or resubmitting this proposal?

I'll indulge you Tin. I don't think they're situation has improved at all, but recent discussions surrounding Liberations have hit a spot in my mind. I withdrew the proposal because I was unsure of its validity, something I find doesn't matter to me now 4 months later. Some have said that the Liberation resolutions shouldn't be used this way, and I now find myself in agreement and intend to persue this to vote.
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Postby Fauxia » Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:50 pm

Yeah, I think the jig is up on this one. I kind of doubt that this is going to pass, but I will support it.
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Outer Sparta
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Postby Outer Sparta » Fri Apr 23, 2021 3:38 pm

I doubt I would vote for a repeal of a liberation of this region at this stage. If I believe the liberation is no longer necessary, then I would vote for the repeal.
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Quebecshire
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Postby Quebecshire » Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:00 pm

Bit mixed. My understanding is they fixed the fascism issue but have other OOC problems in place. I'm not sure I want to give them the attention/publicity of this being up to vote, even if the exact wording of the current liberation resolution is no longer accurate.

I'm open to arguments on either side here.
Last edited by Quebecshire on Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby The Notorious Mad Jack » Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:20 pm

Against due to author antics and that 'further believing' line. Remove the latter and I'll still probably be against but y'know, knock yourself out.
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Postby Tomisburg » Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:54 pm

Hello, this is my first time using the forum, so apologies if I make a mistake in formatting or anything else.

I am the WA Delegate of KAISERREICH and, as of recently, the Minister of Foreign Affairs. If you have any questions or concerns about our region, please message me so we can discuss resolving them. KAISERREICH is ready to work with the community in hopes of repealing the liberation.

Preferably, contact me on Discord, my username is Icon of Drip#8875
Feel free to send me a telegram if that is not an option :)
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Postby Honeydewistania » Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:54 pm

Further Believing that the Liberation was a perversion of the resolution category, and that to correct that fact SC#245 must be repealed;


Is this referring to all anti-fascist liberations or just the preemptive ones?
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HumanSanity
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Postby HumanSanity » Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:39 pm

I'm skeptical but willing to hear you out. I see two arguments for this proposal here:

1) K-Reich has purged fascist influences although possibly has not fully succeeded in doing so. There seems to be consensus agreement that K-Reich has made some progress but that it is largely incomplete, and for whatever progress there has been in the area of fascist/Nazi influences there is a lack of progress in moderation standards/general edginess. Does that understanding accurately reflect the consensus on this matter? I don't have first hand experiences.

2) That Liberations should not be used for OOC issues (which are all that remains per point #1 for K-Reich). I would like this argument be be expanded upon because as of right now there's not much of it. It's a "perversion of the resolution category"... why? Why is that important? Why is it a better model for how Liberations should be used? I need more explanation of that in this thread (and then take some of that explanation and place it in the proposal text) in order to be persuaded.
Last edited by HumanSanity on Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Quebecshire
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Postby Quebecshire » Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:22 pm

I would oppose the liberation being proposed today and I admit I oppose that it was passed originally in the first place (though for the latter solely on the basis that the founder still existed and therefore it does little beyond give the region attention and some new recruits).

Despite that, I'm still not really keen on a repeal. I'm with HumanSanity in that I'll hear this out, but I have a serious case of cold feet here.

It is my understanding that KR has fixed fascism, and Tomisburg hasn't given me a reason to think they aren't genuine. That said, from what I understand from people like Xoriet, the region has purged itself largely of fascist influences yet is guilty of many other OOC shortcomings and the Founder is not as proactive in resolving these problems are they could and should be.

If this gets to vote, whether it passes or not, it will advertise KR, likely land them some new recruitments, and I would not be surprised if they tout this as some major victory or vindication were it to pass, despite that not being the point of the resolution.

I am willing to hear out the case for this resolution, be it from Lenlyvit or anyone else on the forums. I also don't doubt that Lenlyvit has perfectly valid intentions and an arguable stance, but for the reasons above, I'm leaning quite towards the opposition and would likely encourage The League's World Assembly Delegate to vote that way if it comes to the table.
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Outer Sparta
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Postby Outer Sparta » Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:43 pm

Quebecshire wrote:I would oppose the liberation being proposed today and I admit I oppose that it was passed originally in the first place (though for the latter solely on the basis that the founder still existed and therefore it does little beyond give the region attention and some new recruits).

Despite that, I'm still not really keen on a repeal. I'm with HumanSanity in that I'll hear this out, but I have a serious case of cold feet here.

It is my understanding that KR has fixed fascism, and Tomisburg hasn't given me a reason to think they aren't genuine. That said, from what I understand from people like Xoriet, the region has purged itself largely of fascist influences yet is guilty of many other OOC shortcomings and the Founder is not as proactive in resolving these problems are they could and should be.

If this gets to vote, whether it passes or not, it will advertise KR, likely land them some new recruitments, and I would not be surprised if they tout this as some major victory or vindication were it to pass, despite that not being the point of the resolution.

I am willing to hear out the case for this resolution, be it from Lenlyvit or anyone else on the forums. I also don't doubt that Lenlyvit has perfectly valid intentions and an arguable stance, but for the reasons above, I'm leaning quite towards the opposition and would likely encourage The League's World Assembly Delegate to vote that way if it comes to the table.

It depends on whether or not the repeal convinces voters that Kaiserreich has fully purged fascist influences and no longer poses a threat as raiders. My current stance is opposed to a repeal, but I'll be open to change if the arguments for repeal are sufficient.
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Lenlyvit
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Postby Lenlyvit » Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:58 am

Hello, hello. Sorry for my absence, the weekend is not a very good time for me to be on NS anymore. Anyways, I see there was a lot of debate over the "further believing" clause so I've switched it to accurately reflect HS's first argument because that's the truth. From my knowledge, kreich has purged the Nazis/fascists from their regions but still have major moderation problems.

The original resolution was about the Nazis and fascists within their region, and the raids they were conducting to push their regions stance. We all know the Communal Confederacy thing, most of us were here while it happened. Since then, albeit grudgingly, Kaiserreich has worked with Antifa and on their own in some instances to fight Nazis and fascists in their own regions.

That shows they've changed, because they never did that before the liberation was in place and I believe that it will stay after it's repealed. I'm not saying that they don't have major moderation problems, because they most certainly do, but that has no bearing on the language of the liberation nor does it have bearing on the repeal.

Quebecshire wrote:I would oppose the liberation being proposed today and I admit I oppose that it was passed originally in the first place (though for the latter solely on the basis that the founder still existed and therefore it does little beyond give the region attention and some new recruits).

Despite that, I'm still not really keen on a repeal. I'm with HumanSanity in that I'll hear this out, but I have a serious case of cold feet here.

It is my understanding that KR has fixed fascism, and Tomisburg hasn't given me a reason to think they aren't genuine. That said, from what I understand from people like Xoriet, the region has purged itself largely of fascist influences yet is guilty of many other OOC shortcomings and the Founder is not as proactive in resolving these problems are they could and should be.

If this gets to vote, whether it passes or not, it will advertise KR, likely land them some new recruitments, and I would not be surprised if they tout this as some major victory or vindication were it to pass, despite that not being the point of the resolution.

I am willing to hear out the case for this resolution, be it from Lenlyvit or anyone else on the forums. I also don't doubt that Lenlyvit has perfectly valid intentions and an arguable stance, but for the reasons above, I'm leaning quite towards the opposition and would likely encourage The League's World Assembly Delegate to vote that way if it comes to the table.

Hey QC, thanks for stopping by! So, I don't really think it will give Kaiserreich as much advertisement as you think. I'll look up numbers from the liberation really quick, because when that went to vote it hardly affected the growth of Kaiserreich and it certainly did affect their FA though.

20180429 KAISERREICH 275
20180421 KAISERREICH 259
20180414 KAISERREICH 262
20180407 KAISERREICH 263
20180331 KAISERREICH 259
20180324 KAISERREICH 262
20180317 KAISERREICH 258
20180310 KAISERREICH 256

I know that sometime between March 10th and March 14th is when I submitted the liberation, because it was voted upon between the 15th and 19th. There was no major shift in their regions size, meaning they got no real bonus from it. There also was no major shift in their regions size back when I submitted this in November of last year, only now they seem to be growing faster due to recruitment again.
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Puetavisa
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Postby Puetavisa » Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:55 pm

Lenlyvit wrote:
Acknowledging that at the time of the passage of SC#245 Kaiserreich had almost thirty World Assembly nations within its borders, a number which over the last two years has dwindled to under twenty, making Kaiserreich a region which no longer poses a serious threat to regions different than theirs;


So you're saying just because they failed to retain World Assembly endorsements on their Delegate, that they should have their Liberation repealed? Yeah.. no. Endorsements has nothing to do with subscribing to and endorsing Nazi/Fascist ideology. Weak argument.
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Lenlyvit
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Postby Lenlyvit » Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:18 pm

Puetavisa wrote:
Lenlyvit wrote:
Acknowledging that at the time of the passage of SC#245 Kaiserreich had almost thirty World Assembly nations within its borders, a number which over the last two years has dwindled to under twenty, making Kaiserreich a region which no longer poses a serious threat to regions different than theirs;


So you're saying just because they failed to retain World Assembly endorsements on their Delegate, that they should have their Liberation repealed? Yeah.. no. Endorsements has nothing to do with subscribing to and endorsing Nazi/Fascist ideology. Weak argument.

Coming from someone who's in a region that proudly works with fascists and Nazis, okay. Who are you again? Anyways, it's to show that they're now weaker than they once were and they no longer have enough WA members to raid communities.
Last edited by Lenlyvit on Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Quebecshire
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Postby Quebecshire » Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:23 pm

Puetavisa wrote:So you're saying just because they failed to retain World Assembly endorsements on their Delegate, that they should have their Liberation repealed? Yeah.. no. Endorsements has nothing to do with subscribing to and endorsing Nazi/Fascist ideology. Weak argument.

This is rich. The Security Council needs no lecturing from someone who resides in a region as OOC reprehensible as yours, or who behaves so OOC reprehensibly as yourself. Go clear TWC of its fascist buds, and maybe clean up the blacklisted players while you're at it too. Not sure if anyone active would be left, including yourself, but I don't think you have an ounce of credibility until that happens!
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Postby Outer Sparta » Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:43 pm

Puetavisa wrote:So you're saying just because they failed to retain World Assembly endorsements on their Delegate, that they should have their Liberation repealed? Yeah.. no. Endorsements has nothing to do with subscribing to and endorsing Nazi/Fascist ideology. Weak argument.

Do you approve of Kaiserreich's OOC beliefs and agenda?
Last edited by Outer Sparta on Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Great Algerstonia » Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:07 pm

I support this bill
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HumanSanity
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Postby HumanSanity » Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:23 pm

Lenlyvit wrote:I'm not saying that they don't have major moderation problems, because they most certainly do, but that has no bearing on the language of the liberation nor does it have bearing on the repeal.

I want to hear more of the argument about why an OOC moderation issue can't be addressed via a Liberation. You've hinted at that argument but not fully articulated it yet, and I think it should be made more substantial, both in this thread and in the proposal. You're pushing me more in that direction for sure, "moderation issues" can be fixed with foreign help and good will by Kreich and don't necessarily mean we should allow a region to be blotted from existence. But I want more from this line of argument if I'm going to be persuaded by it.


Lenlyvit wrote:Hey QC, thanks for stopping by! So, I don't really think it will give Kaiserreich as much advertisement as you think. I'll look up numbers from the liberation really quick, because when that went to vote it hardly affected the growth of Kaiserreich and it certainly did affect their FA though.

20180429 KAISERREICH 275
20180421 KAISERREICH 259
20180414 KAISERREICH 262
20180407 KAISERREICH 263
20180331 KAISERREICH 259
20180324 KAISERREICH 262
20180317 KAISERREICH 258
20180310 KAISERREICH 256

I know that sometime between March 10th and March 14th is when I submitted the liberation, because it was voted upon between the 15th and 19th. There was no major shift in their regions size, meaning they got no real bonus from it. There also was no major shift in their regions size back when I submitted this in November of last year, only now they seem to be growing faster due to recruitment again.

Independently, these numbers are somewhat interesting and can inform how we talk about SC Liberations, publicity, and anti-fascist praxis, a discussion we often have in more abstract rather than concrete terms. Thanks for sharing.
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Lenlyvit
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Postby Lenlyvit » Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:55 pm

HumanSanity wrote:
Lenlyvit wrote:I'm not saying that they don't have major moderation problems, because they most certainly do, but that has no bearing on the language of the liberation nor does it have bearing on the repeal.

I want to hear more of the argument about why an OOC moderation issue can't be addressed via a Liberation. You've hinted at that argument but not fully articulated it yet, and I think it should be made more substantial, both in this thread and in the proposal. You're pushing me more in that direction for sure, "moderation issues" can be fixed with foreign help and good will by Kreich and don't necessarily mean we should allow a region to be blotted from existence. But I want more from this line of argument if I'm going to be persuaded by it.

The IC institution of the Security Council shouldn't be used for OOC issues. While the fight against Fascism and Nazism are OOC fights, in NS they are also in character fights. The liberation was originally a substitution for a condemnation, which those who were around should remember I was drafting until Cormac suggested a liberation be used instead.

Their OOC moderation issues are their problem, and not the problem of the Security Council as a whole. If we allowed the liberation function to act as such it would be a very slippery slope, one that I think should not come to pass. Then we'd have people trying to liberate every region with OOC moderation issues, and that's not something I'm keen on seeing.
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Postby The Notorious Mad Jack » Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:17 pm

The Security Council has been used to commend and condemn OOC actions for almost the entirety of its existence. I don't see why - or even how - you could change that without then repealing a ton of C&Cs just to maintain logical consistency.
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Lenlyvit
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Postby Lenlyvit » Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:22 pm

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:The Security Council has been used to commend and condemn OOC actions for almost the entirety of its existence. I don't see why - or even how - you could change that without then repealing a ton of C&Cs just to maintain logical consistency.

C&C's are inherently different than Liberations, with different functions. I guess I did lump those in with what I said, but I feel that Liberations should be used for IC reasons and not OOC moderation. Fascism and Nazism being both an IC and OOC fight, it kind of blurs the lines.
Last edited by Lenlyvit on Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Scheinenland
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Postby Scheinenland » Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:42 pm

Greetings, everyone. I lead the anti-Nazism/Fascism initiative in Kaiserreich. I wanted to come and explain our efforts to combat Nazism and Fascism in the region. We actively ban any new and existing nations with Nazi symbolism, slogans, attributes, or anything else that is relevant to National Socialism. Naturally, our name does attract many nations looking for a place to espouse their extremist and abhorrent views, but we take our banishment policy seriously. I've made sure to collect the names of all recent purges to buttress that commitment for you all. The following list was compiled after I started recording the purges at the start of this month. We enforced the policy just the same before but we didn't record it.

https://www.nationstates.net/nation=austria-deuscthland
Ejected for motto;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=baltikum
Ejected for motto;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=germanic_people_of_germany
Ejected for motto;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=trollton
Ejected for flag;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=west_polandia
Ejected for flag and banner;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=weltkrieg_reich
Ejected for motto;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=greater_deutch_reich
Ejected for name and currency;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=volksneu
Ejected for motto;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=reformed_avalon
Ejected for flag and motto;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=europa_reich
Ejected for flag;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=98th_deathkorps_regiment
Ejected for flag, motto, name;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=kaiserliche_hiveworld
Ejected for motto;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=schwarzer_drachen
Ejected for flag and motto;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=asahi_teikoku
Ejected for motto;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=nahost
Ejected for motto;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=gorvok
Ejected for flag;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=koldachia
Ejected for Discord icon;
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=the_based_lithuanians
Ejected for flag;
Last edited by Scheinenland on Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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